[9fans] XML - Plan9

This is a discussion on [9fans] XML - Plan9 ; we feel the same way about iScsi hardware. - erik > > I've actually seen FPGAs set up for XML processing... I thought that > was quite amusing :-)...

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Thread: [9fans] XML

  1. Re: [9fans] XML

    we feel the same way about iScsi hardware.

    - erik

    >
    > I've actually seen FPGAs set up for XML processing... I thought that
    > was quite amusing :-)


  2. Re: [9fans] XML

    I built a text file to described the menu interface for the LCD front panels
    my employer makes.

    Initialy I did this as an NDB-like file. I added the concept of a "end" keyword
    to terminate a hierarchal block, and allowed a freestanding token to
    imply a boolean token=true.

    The DTD for this format was defined in another text file which was massaged by
    a few lines of awk into an initialised table, compiled into all applications
    that read the files (the format was fixed).

    People didn't like it as it was not "standard XML" so when I have the chance to
    rework it I went for XML and a DTD.

    Personally I prefer the NDB style implementation, my compiled in spec gave much
    more accurate validation than a DTD, and this was lightweight enought to be
    easily be done on the embedded system.

    Overall, having completed the changes a year or so ago, XML seems to have added
    a load more angle brackets, quotes and poorer validation, in return for no real
    reward.

    But at least my files are now standard, so thats ok.

    -Steve

  3. Re: [9fans] XML

    Geoffrey Avila wrote:
    >
    >
    > On a related note:
    >
    > Somebody at Sun decided that the thing Unix needed most of all was a way
    > to programmatically manipulate "init" via XML. What's worse is that a
    > completely independent team at Apple committed a starkly similar
    > atrocity at almost the same time.
    >
    > http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/content/...uickstart.html
    >
    > http://developer.apple.com/macosx/launchd.html
    >
    > Could someone explain this to me? Why would you do this? How could this
    > possibly be a net improvement?
    >
    > -GBA
    >


    I'll try.

    This presumes you have been around dogs.

    Dogs have a way of ummhh.. 'grooming' themselves that (fortunately) most humans
    could not manage alone. Not enough flex in the back and neck.

    Can't speak to motivation...

    Unfortunately, there are fewer such limitations in software development.

    So - the reason for many of these departures' from common sense is the same as
    that of a Northbound dog licking his Southbound end:

    He does it simply because he is able to, and no one really cares to interfere.


    Bill

  4. Re: [9fans] XML

    any such dog would need to be straddling the south pole.
    there can be at most one of these dogs at any one time.

    ;-)

    - erik

    On Mon May 21 19:29:20 EDT 2007, wbh@conducive.org wrote:
    > So - the reason for many of these departures' from common sense is the same as
    > that of a Northbound dog licking his Southbound end:


  5. Re: [9fans] XML

    I have to disagree with Uriel here:
    I was on a project that went from using a simple scheme (Item-1-Name = ;
    Item-1-Price = )
    to using XML. Each time I would add the feature that was desired by the
    Cabal of PHBs, they would think of another XML branch that they'd like to
    support for some other customer or system. Then it just went crazy: they
    wanted to hire an outside `architect` when I had been adding every feature
    piecemeal up until that point. Long story short, the project went over time
    alotment, the `architect` was an idiot, and I was laid off because the Cabal
    decided that they wanted to shift away from the bespoke app.
    I think the most fun was waiting for the 105MiB XML file to come down from
    the first client to be imported; I especially loved the repeated information
    within each block.
    I had asked to use either a web service or a simple CGI `API`, but no, it
    we *had* to pull from the clients. Cabal of PHBs + XML - Interest in funding
    design = steaming pile of manure.

    On 5/21/07, Uriel wrote:
    >
    > On 5/21/07, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
    > > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > > that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    > > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?
    > > Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion?

    >
    > No.
    >
    > But XML creates jobs, so it must be good for the economy.
    >
    > uriel
    >




    --
    "No stranger to me is this wanderer: many years ago passed he by.
    Zarathustra he was called; but he hath altered.
    Then thou carriedst thine ashes into the mountains: wilt thou now
    carry thy fire into the valleys? Fearest thou not the incendiary's
    doom?
    Yea, I recognize Zarathustra. Pure is his eye, and no loathing
    lurketh about his mouth. Goeth he not along like a dancer?"
    -- The Saint, Also Sprach Zarathustra


  6. Re: [9fans] XML

    > P.S.: And be careful, you might offend the Apple and Sun fanboys in
    > the audience.


    Well I was horrified when NetBSD core seemed to be following in their
    footsteps. Still am, but I have more or less been able to ignore the
    issue.

    ++L


  7. Re: [9fans] XML

    > we feel the same way about iScsi hardware.
    >
    > - erik
    >
    >>
    >> I've actually seen FPGAs set up for XML processing... I thought that
    >> was quite amusing :-)


    Then Coraid is ripe for wrapping SCSI in XML. xSCSI anyone?

    ++L


  8. Re: [9fans] XML

    > Could someone explain this to me? Why would you do this? How could this
    > possibly be a net improvement?


    you probably want to ask about it in one of the sun or apple groups.


  9. Re: [9fans] XML

    > However, we're still experimenting with this and I think that just
    > placing a "toc" file


    i think just using s-expressions would do the trick, and be much easier to read.


  10. Re: [9fans] XML

    i thought the criticism of s expressions was they were hard to read.

    - erik

  11. Re: [9fans] XML

    A dog straddling the south pole would have two north-facing ends.

    Bill apparently meant south-facing end.

    erik quanstrom wrote:
    > any such dog would need to be straddling the south pole.
    > there can be at most one of these dogs at any one time.
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    > - erik
    >
    > On Mon May 21 19:29:20 EDT 2007, wbh@conducive.org wrote:
    >> So - the reason for many of these departures' from common sense is the same as
    >> that of a Northbound dog licking his Southbound end:

    >



  12. Re: [9fans] XML

    however, one end would be *heading* north. the other would be
    *heading* south.

    - erik

  13. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/22/07, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
    > A dog straddling the south pole would have two north-facing ends.


    Euphemistically, anything below the waist is the south end.
    Therefore, the head is at the north end. All male dogs retaining both
    rear legs and standing could be perceived as straddling its own
    southern pole.

    Thus, a male dog can never have an end facing south?

    -Jack

  14. Re: [9fans] XML

    to throw a spaniard in the works (never was good at mangling metaphors)
    i use XML to store midi patches and configs. as a human never edits
    them directly (the pre-existing library does that) it was a good choice.
    i considerered an ndb approach, and S-expressions, but i like what i got.

    i could have invented a file format and implemented it but i chose not to.

    you wouldn't want to read or write any configuration for something
    with a thousand params but programs do it fine.

    brucee

    On 5/23/07, erik quanstrom wrote:
    > however, one end would be *heading* north. the other would be
    > *heading* south.
    >
    > - erik
    >


  15. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/22/07, Bruce Ellis wrote:
    > i use XML to store midi patches and configs. as a human never edits
    > them directly (the pre-existing library does that) it was a good choice.


    I actually think this is where Sun/Apple are headed, where either
    settings are configured via some automated deployment/policy process
    or UI interaction and it's not expected that a human will ever have to
    deal with it (though they would not be prevented from doing so).

    -Jack

  16. Re: [9fans] XML

    Nothing on the plane of the surface of the earth at the south pole can
    head or face south. Only something orthogonal to the surface (eg the
    pole itself or perhaps a penguin's head) can point south.

    wk

    erik quanstrom wrote:
    > however, one end would be *heading* north. the other would be
    > *heading* south.



  17. Re: [9fans] XML

    On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 12:27 -0700, Geoffrey Avila wrote:
    > On Mon, 21 May 2007, Uriel wrote:
    >
    > > You have no heart, programmers have families to feed! This will keep
    > > hundreds of programmers employed for years to come.
    > >
    > > uriel
    > >
    > > P.S.: And be careful, you might offend the Apple and Sun fanboys in
    > > the audience.

    >
    > As a self-described Apple/Sun "fanboy", I'm trying to figure out why two
    > normally mostly-sane companies would willfully mutilate their OS in this
    > particular manner. I've never heard a peep out of anyone claiming how the
    > problems they sought to remedy with these new methods were insurmountable
    > w/o spraying XML all over the place...


    That is one of those mysteries that just makes me sad :-(

    Thanks,
    Roman.


  18. Re: [9fans] XML

    I find that most of the tree-like information I want to store in a fd
    fits well on OGDL (1st layer). I think Forsyth was working on a OGDL
    parser in limbo - I don't know if he finished or stopped thinking on
    it.

    I wrote my own in c++, and I used a j2me implementation given in the
    OGDL main site - them both work fine.

    2007/5/22, Bruce Ellis :
    > to throw a spaniard in the works (never was good at mangling metaphors)
    > i use XML to store midi patches and configs. as a human never edits
    > them directly (the pre-existing library does that) it was a good choice.
    > i considerered an ndb approach, and S-expressions, but i like what i got.
    >
    > i could have invented a file format and implemented it but i chose not to.
    >
    > you wouldn't want to read or write any configuration for something
    > with a thousand params but programs do it fine.
    >
    > brucee
    >
    > On 5/23/07, erik quanstrom wrote:
    > > however, one end would be *heading* north. the other would be
    > > *heading* south.
    > >
    > > - erik
    > >

    >


  19. Re: [9fans] XML

    Lately I've been told at work to use a library in C. Most calls have
    the signature
    ErrorType function(const char *xml);

    I have to pass to them xmls of more than two levels deep, attributes,
    and around ten elements.

    When I asked why such interface to a library, claiming that it was
    uncomfortable to me, the lib developer told me that in fact
    xml-parameter-passing was one of the techniques he liked most, and
    helped him solve a lot of problems easily.

    2007/5/23, Lluís Batlle :
    > I find that most of the tree-like information I want to store in a fd
    > fits well on OGDL (1st layer). I think Forsyth was working on a OGDL
    > parser in limbo - I don't know if he finished or stopped thinking on
    > it.
    >
    > I wrote my own in c++, and I used a j2me implementation given in the
    > OGDL main site - them both work fine.
    >
    > 2007/5/22, Bruce Ellis :
    > > to throw a spaniard in the works (never was good at mangling metaphors)
    > > i use XML to store midi patches and configs. as a human never edits
    > > them directly (the pre-existing library does that) it was a good choice..
    > > i considerered an ndb approach, and S-expressions, but i like what i got.
    > >
    > > i could have invented a file format and implemented it but i chose not to.
    > >
    > > you wouldn't want to read or write any configuration for something
    > > with a thousand params but programs do it fine.
    > >
    > > brucee
    > >
    > > On 5/23/07, erik quanstrom wrote:
    > > > however, one end would be *heading* north. the other would be
    > > > *heading* south.
    > > >
    > > > - erik
    > > >

    > >

    >


  20. Re: [9fans] XML

    > I have to pass to them xmls of more than two levels deep, attributes,
    > and around ten elements.


    Must do wonders for type and error checking.

    ++L


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