Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno - Plan9

This is a discussion on Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno - Plan9 ; Perhaps one should rephrase it as `you are most comfortable with what you've already learned.' The main obstacle seems to be to acknowledge that your current environment might not be the universally best. But it seems that trend isn't really ...

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Thread: Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

  1. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    Perhaps one should rephrase it as `you are most comfortable with what you've
    already learned.' The main obstacle seems to be to acknowledge that your
    current environment might not be the universally best. But it seems that
    trend isn't really new, just increasing.

    It amazes me to no end that those linux gnus continuously emphasise that one
    has to spend some amount of time to grow comfortable with the command line,
    keyboard navigation in window managers and editors, and whatever else their
    current pet peeve may be, yet they aren't too willing to to the same about
    an environment they're not accustomed themselves.

    Martin


  2. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On 3/8/07, erik quanstrom wrote:
    > that's a unixism. plan 9 uses "lookman".
    >
    > - erik
    >


    He was referring to a unix "war story" so it was apropos to use apropos.



    > On Thu Mar 8 10:07:36 EST 2007, leimy2k@gmail.com wrote:
    > > On 3/8/07, matt wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > "How do I find out what commands I can use?"
    > > > ls /bin
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > > think about what you want to do and use apropos.

    >
    >



    --
    - Passage Matthew 5:37:
    But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever
    is more than these cometh of evil.

  3. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    David Leimbach wrote: So how did Windows get so huge? :-) By
    skillfully managing perceptions building a worldwide network of "certified" people whose livelihoods depend upon increasing complexity ensuring the support of the hardware community by requiring regular purchases of new computers working behind the scenes to ensure that friends become decision makers FUD

  4. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

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    The less cynical part of me says that windows got so huge through the
    usual process by which software gets huge: hiring.
    It's really easy to believe you need more manpower on your software
    project. That eventually leads to dividing your now-unmanageable
    team into smaller teams with interface committees sitting in
    between. As the process repeats itself the interfaces become
    increasingly harder to change and the effort to re-use or encapsulate
    similar pieces of work from across organizational barriers becomes
    more than just re-building something expedient yourself. Which leads
    to more hiring to help maintain the thing you built. Which leads to
    more interfaces.

    The number one job of a product/development manager should be to keep
    the team size small enough that this doesn't happen. The number one
    job of the architect is to find an architecture that can be
    implemented by a team small enough that the interface documents stay
    small. To bring this back onto topic, Plan 9's file server
    abstraction is exactly this: a mechanism to ensure that interfaces
    are consistent and that allows separation of development concerns
    without the strangle-hold of interface committees.

    Paul

    On 8-Mar-07, at 10:34 AM, Wes Kussmaul wrote:

    > David Leimbach wrote:
    >> So how did Windows get so huge? :-)

    > By
    > skillfully managing perceptions
    > building a worldwide network of "certified" people whose
    > livelihoods depend upon increasing complexity
    > ensuring the support of the hardware community by requiring regular
    > purchases of new computers
    > working behind the scenes to ensure that friends become decision
    > makers
    > FUD


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  5. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, don bailey wrote:

    > I'm really with Minnich on this one. The GUI is what *everyone*
    > complains about and it's always the *first* thing they complain
    > about. I deal with pretty intelligent people in the security
    > community and they can't handle Rio and don't want to.
    >


    Yeah. I've actually heard that firsthand from some of our visualization
    people. I mean, they would also want support for hw OpenGL, which we can't
    do (yet), but apparently the Rio aesthetic was lost on them.

    While I don't think it'd be worth it to port the giant GTK+/GNOME hairball
    over, I do miss the 3D-look window borders, which (to me) make it easier
    to distinguish edges for grabbing and moving purposes. If GNOME is too
    much candyfloss & tinsel, how about a 3dwm-look?

    -GBA


  6. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    http://9fans.net/archive/1995/08/20



    On 8 Mar 2007, at 21:02, Geoffrey Avila wrote:

    > On Wed, 7 Mar 2007, don bailey wrote:
    >
    >> I'm really with Minnich on this one. The GUI is what *everyone*
    >> complains about and it's always the *first* thing they complain
    >> about. I deal with pretty intelligent people in the security
    >> community and they can't handle Rio and don't want to.
    >>

    >
    > Yeah. I've actually heard that firsthand from some of our
    > visualization people. I mean, they would also want support for hw
    > OpenGL, which we can't do (yet), but apparently the Rio aesthetic
    > was lost on them.
    >
    > While I don't think it'd be worth it to port the giant GTK+/GNOME
    > hairball over, I do miss the 3D-look window borders, which (to me)
    > make it easier to distinguish edges for grabbing and moving
    > purposes. If GNOME is too much candyfloss & tinsel, how about a
    > 3dwm-look?
    >
    > -GBA
    >



  7. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170

    From: Lucio De Re

    Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
    Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
    Plan 9 is today.



  8. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On 3/8/07, matt wrote:
    > http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170
    >
    > From: Lucio De Re
    >
    > Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
    > Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
    > Plan 9 is today.


    interesting perspective. A different one comes from my side. By
    1993,at my job at the now-gone Supercomputing Research Center, we were
    already buying PCs to evaluate Linux and FreeBSD on PCs for
    clustering. I had been running 386bsd at that time almost since its
    release. And folks in DOE were doing the same kind of testing.

    Clusters had a long history -- almost 10 years -- by 1993; it's not
    that Linux or FreeBSD did anything new or better, in fact at the time
    they were considerably worse (in fact, most Linux cluster software is
    not an advance over what was routinely done in 1993); but you could
    fix them.

    By 1993 Sun and other companies had made it impossible to get OS
    source. The vendors, who owned the clustering space at the time, cut
    their own throats by refusing to release source. People voted with
    their feet. Sound familiar? :-)

    At the same time, the supercomputing space was 0% of all PC sales, so
    it's not like we mattered. Google and the banking sector have changed
    that somewhat.

    thanks

    ron

  9. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    > From: Lucio De Re
    >
    > Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
    > Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
    > Plan 9 is today.


    Did I really say that? :-)

    ++L


  10. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    > By 1993 Sun and other companies had made it impossible to get OS
    > source. The vendors, who owned the clustering space at the time, cut
    > their own throats by refusing to release source. People voted with
    > their feet. Sound familiar? :-)


    Yes, but the tune I hear in South Africa's business community today is
    not greatly concerned with Open Source, it is concerned with
    continuity. I probably saved my primary client a few million Rands
    (say a million US dollars) in licence fees and hardware costs in the
    nearly twenty years I have consulted for them, but they will probably
    spend it all (they have alredy spent most of it, I believe) to catch
    up with their peers all of whom run Windows. Why? Because they
    believe than no matter how large the costs, it is cheaper than to
    depend on my skills, that after they have effectively refused to allow
    me to train anyone in their organisation to replace me or even
    tobecome familiar with the software I have supplied (NetBSD and a
    hundred or so shell scripts for administration, one or two C programs,
    a growing base of Apache/PHP/PostgreSQL applications), a "saving" I am
    not including in my estimate. So they believe that Windows will
    "liberate" them from this dependency and I have no arguments to save
    them from themselves. In fact, any arguments I have would seem to be
    in the opposite direction.

    I could have run at least some of their needs on Plan 9: just Fossil
    and Venti would have provided them with a backup facility that much
    more closely matches their operation. But they are not willing to pay
    the cost of research nor the risk of failure, so they have to do
    without. Thing is, they would not understand the difference and
    therefore would still want to migrate to what they like to call
    "industry standard".

    Apropos of Plan 9, the matter is that my client, like most "users",
    are terrified of being different. They believe in the comfort of
    "convention". Plan 9 isn't for them, not yet, possibly not ever. But
    some people buy Ferraris even though there are very few mechanics that
    can look after them. They know that what they want doesn't come
    cheaply and are willing to pay for it. I would far rather Plan 9
    presented itself as the Ferrari of operating systems (after all, it's
    the F40 that has a piece of steel cord in a nylon pipe to open the
    door from the inside, isn't it?) than that it aimed itself at my
    client's staff whose ignorance concerning computing is frightening.
    Let them have Windows, if that's what they want. And if Linux
    (specially UBUNTU) is capable of filling the middle-class slot,
    magnificent, too. But to see where computing could be, you have to
    look at the operating systems that didn't become mundane: Plan 9
    first, QNX, BeOS, no doubt some others.

    ++L

    PS: The Ferrari analogy is new to me. But I think its aptness is
    real.


  11. Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On Mar 8, 11:05 pm, mattmob...@proweb.co.uk (matt) wrote:
    > http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170
    >
    > From: Lucio De Re
    >
    > Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
    > Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
    > Plan 9 is today.


    Early Quake was if not written, at least running on Plan 9, back when
    Carmack was active on this list.

    Note also that Quake system of ".pakN" files created modern gaming
    with mods. And it is just an emulation of per process files systems
    that John C. got from Plan 9. Just this kind of crude mock
    implementation of this great idea changed the gaming world, even if
    applied narrowly.

    What per-process file systems, and "persistent, distributed,
    architecture independet inheritable objects" as "union mountable
    networked file systems" could do to the software engineering, if it
    would become mainstream design principle!

  12. Re: [9fans] Re: interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/orinferno

    On 3/9/07, app wrote:
    > On Mar 8, 11:05 pm, mattmob...@proweb.co.uk (matt) wrote:
    > > http://9fans.net/archive/2001/06/170
    > >
    > > From: Lucio De Re
    > >
    > > Quake is to Linux what 1-2-3 was to the IBM Personal Computer.
    > > Without it, I believe, Linux would still be as much of a curiosity as
    > > Plan 9 is today.

    >
    > Early Quake was if not written, at least running on Plan 9, back when
    > Carmack was active on this list.
    >


    See this:

    http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9f...st/003490.html


    > Note also that Quake system of ".pakN" files created modern gaming
    > with mods. And it is just an emulation of per process files systems
    > that John C. got from Plan 9. Just this kind of crude mock
    > implementation of this great idea changed the gaming world, even if
    > applied narrowly.
    >
    > What per-process file systems, and "persistent, distributed,
    > architecture independet inheritable objects" as "union mountable
    > networked file systems" could do to the software engineering, if it
    > would become mainstream design principle!
    >


  13. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    > I'm really with Minnich on this one. The GUI is what *everyone*
    > complains about and it's always the *first* thing they complain
    > about. I deal with pretty intelligent people in the security
    > community and they can't handle Rio and don't want to.


    In response, a serious, non-flame, question: what's the realistic
    alternative? It would be possible, if arduous, to replace rio with
    a clone of, say, fvwm. But what about fluxbox and icewm and sawfish
    and windowmaker and enlightenment? Is "the problem" really rio per
    se, or is the problem that for each person rio isn't the thing they
    already use?

    I guess my question translates into "Is there *one* X window manager
    which, if cloned for Plan 9, would solve the 'rio problem'?".

    Dave Eckhardt

    P.S. And I guess the follow-on question is "Would that window manager
    be sufficient, or are bash and turning vt into xterm necessary too?".

  14. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    Honestly, I happen to boot plan9 from times to times, when I find enough
    time to play with it and try to get to know it, and so far rio has not
    been the major problem for me. After all, once a term is opened, I
    don't really have much more to ask from the window managing system when
    it comes to getting to know the system underneath.

    I'm more slowed down by:
    -obviously the fact that it's quite a different system from unix,
    -the fact I find the documentation unreadable in a term so I have to
    read the docs in a browser on my other comp,
    -the lack of completion with tab (I know it can be done with another
    key, but it's hard to break the tab habit),
    -and last but not least, getting used to edit with sam or acme
    (which of course means using the mouse) while I'm working all day with
    vim without ever using the mouse.

    At least now rio is starting with a dvorak keymap, otherwise it would
    have been a no go

    Cheers,
    Mathieu.

    On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 04:45:44AM -0400, Dave Eckhardt wrote:
    > > I'm really with Minnich on this one. The GUI is what *everyone*
    > > complains about and it's always the *first* thing they complain
    > > about. I deal with pretty intelligent people in the security
    > > community and they can't handle Rio and don't want to.

    >
    > In response, a serious, non-flame, question: what's the realistic
    > alternative? It would be possible, if arduous, to replace rio with
    > a clone of, say, fvwm. But what about fluxbox and icewm and sawfish
    > and windowmaker and enlightenment? Is "the problem" really rio per
    > se, or is the problem that for each person rio isn't the thing they
    > already use?
    >
    > I guess my question translates into "Is there *one* X window manager
    > which, if cloned for Plan 9, would solve the 'rio problem'?".
    >
    > Dave Eckhardt
    >
    > P.S. And I guess the follow-on question is "Would that window manager
    > be sufficient, or are bash and turning vt into xterm necessary too?".


    --
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  15. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    > -the fact I find the documentation unreadable in a term so I have to
    > read the docs in a browser on my other comp,


    man -P man

    > -obviously the fact that it's quite a different system from unix,
    > -the lack of completion with tab (I know it can be done with another
    > key, but it's hard to break the tab habit),
    > -and last but not least, getting used to edit with sam or acme
    > (which of course means using the mouse) while I'm working all day with
    > vim without ever using the mouse.


    these all say the same thing: the environment is different than what
    you're used to. it is well worth the time to learn the new
    environment. i suspect the cost will be less than learning Vista's
    quirks.


  16. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 08:55:42AM -0800, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
    > > -the fact I find the documentation unreadable in a term so I have to
    > > read the docs in a browser on my other comp,

    >
    > man -P man
    >
    > > -obviously the fact that it's quite a different system from unix,
    > > -the lack of completion with tab (I know it can be done with another
    > > key, but it's hard to break the tab habit),
    > > -and last but not least, getting used to edit with sam or acme
    > > (which of course means using the mouse) while I'm working all day with
    > > vim without ever using the mouse.

    >
    > these all say the same thing: the environment is different than what
    > you're used to. it is well worth the time to learn the new
    > environment.


    Sure, that's why I'm far from having given up, I'm just going really
    slowly. And the problem with that is I forget almost everything I
    learned between two plan9 "sessions" since I don't have time to play
    with it often enough. But I figured if I started using acme from the
    plan9port at work, that at least would be acquired. .

    > i suspect the cost will be less than learning Vista's
    > quirks.


    *gasp*
    Fortunately I have enough freedom at work so that I don't have to use
    microsoft "products".

    Cheers,
    Mathieu.

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  17. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On 3/12/07, lejatorn@gmail.com wrote:
    > On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 08:55:42AM -0800, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
    > > > -the fact I find the documentation unreadable in a term so I have to
    > > > read the docs in a browser on my other comp,

    > >
    > > man -P man
    > >
    > > > -obviously the fact that it's quite a different system from unix,
    > > > -the lack of completion with tab (I know it can be done with another
    > > > key, but it's hard to break the tab habit),
    > > > -and last but not least, getting used to edit with sam or acme
    > > > (which of course means using the mouse) while I'm working all day with
    > > > vim without ever using the mouse.

    > >
    > > these all say the same thing: the environment is different than what
    > > you're used to. it is well worth the time to learn the new
    > > environment.

    >
    > Sure, that's why I'm far from having given up, I'm just going really
    > slowly. And the problem with that is I forget almost everything I
    > learned between two plan9 "sessions" since I don't have time to play
    > with it often enough. But I figured if I started using acme from the
    > plan9port at work, that at least would be acquired. .
    >


    I actually keep notebooks of things that I learn when I'm trying new
    OSes. I have one for FreeBSD too, as I was really used to the linux
    way of doing things when I went to that OS.

    I think that the wiki is meant to be a sort of "shared notebook" for
    the community to contribute and update.

  18. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 06:46:01AM +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za wrote:
    > (after all, it's
    > the F40 that has a piece of steel cord in a nylon pipe to open the
    > door from the inside, isn't it?)


    If you look at it, I guess you could call the whole F40 a piece of
    steel cord in a nylon pipe

    > PS: The Ferrari analogy is new to me. But I think its aptness is
    > real.


    It's lovely. Especially with the F40.


  19. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 04:45:44AM -0400, Dave Eckhardt wrote:
    > In response, a serious, non-flame, question: what's the realistic
    > alternative? It would be possible, if arduous, to replace rio with
    > a clone of, say, fvwm. But what about fluxbox and icewm and sawfish
    > and windowmaker and enlightenment? Is "the problem" really rio per
    > se, or is the problem that for each person rio isn't the thing they
    > already use?
    >
    > I guess my question translates into "Is there *one* X window manager
    > which, if cloned for Plan 9, would solve the 'rio problem'?".


    I doubt that. I think that what is missing is the freedom in choosing
    your workflow. Even if it's training wheels until you get used to
    the system and can drop the cruft and stick to plain rio.

    OTOH I think that the reason more gui's and wm's keep popping up
    is that they're all broken. People switch when something that
    seems to be a better iteration comes along or when they have no
    choice or energy to make it.

    I think that there's two kinds of software: The clear-cut cases,
    where you can work on the flawless small sharp tool to do the
    exact one thing and the vague messy stuff where you can't see
    what perfection is and instead just make a little less incomplete
    or broken thing and see how that works.

    UI is stuck in the latter. I won't repeat the argument that frames
    should be managed by a program with a policy and not by the user
    with a pointing device[0]. Others have their own demands. Rio isn't
    an unsurpassable wall for me, so maybe I'm not the one to give an
    answer. It's just tedious and I don't believe in it. I'll need
    some time and energy to adjust. Thanks to tip9ug and Inferno, I
    should have the means to start.

    I'm also happy with the small sharp tool -type documentation, but
    there should be some good book or introductory material for the
    system (there's at least that one book, url posted to 9fans earlier).
    That's the way you can find out what tools you can use and what
    you can (typically) do with them. That or rummaging around a lot
    (lookman, ls...).

    Still; AHS, ASS.


    [0] Oops.


  20. Re: [9fans] interesting potential targets for plan 9 and/or inferno

    On Tue Mar 13 08:55:29 EST 2007, harriha@mail.student.oulu.fi wrote:
    > OTOH I think that the reason more gui's and wm's keep popping up
    > is that they're all broken. People switch when something that
    > seems to be a better iteration comes along or when they have no
    > choice or energy to make it.


    like miniskirts, window managers are a fad that pops up every
    decade or so.

    - erik

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