Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question... - Plan9

This is a discussion on Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question... - Plan9 ; Hola, Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this topic. Search for the discussions, i think there has ...

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Thread: Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

  1. Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Hola,

    Reading 9fans mail list archives you will notice C++ and the "object oriented model" is not much appreciated, there are a lot of references (including great fortunes entries) about this topic.

    Search for the discussions, i think there has been other attemps to build a c++ environment, (Steve got cfront working, take a look at the contrib software section of the wiki)

    there is people who will love to have a c++ environment, but the preferred way is the plan9 one, which implies no c++.


    >So modern operation system with out C++ support is something...unusual
    >(i don't know right word in english, that describe what i want to say
    >)?
    >


    probably you could say plan9 is not "typical" in this aspect.

    slds.

    gabi

  2. Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel wrote:

    > If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them...
    >
    > Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans
    > archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a
    > billion times before.
    >
    > Some 20 years 'suddenly'...
    >
    > uriel


    I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who
    are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to
    deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the
    hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some
    supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way.

    The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
    development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they
    ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity
    towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years,
    should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan 9.
    They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need
    is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or
    previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at least
    stand by while others do that.

    The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in
    the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression of
    your post.

    --
    Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

  3. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    > The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
    > development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that
    > they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever
    > animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind
    > through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/
    > want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky
    > quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their
    > transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If
    > you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while
    > others do that.


    It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning
    GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before -
    rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they
    have.

    Cheers,
    Anant

  4. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:59:41 -0000, Anant Narayanan wrote:

    > It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning
    > GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before - rekindling
    > the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they have.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Anant


    You are in the right, or rather you would have been in the right were the
    original post about the "aesthetical" aspects of the GNU project and/or
    C++, or whether the GNU philosophy is sound. However, Filipp Andronov
    asked about the development options available on Plan 9, how they compared
    to what she/he has already seen, and whether there were equivalents to
    lighten his burden of porting something to Plan 9. A perfectly OK
    question, that can, and even should, be asked every once in a while.

    What she/he got from Uriel was this:

    GNU is bad...

    a. ... because it is not Plan 9.
    b. ... because I think so.
    c. ... because it has loyal followers.
    d. ... because it created autoconf.
    e. ... because it is Not UNIX.
    f. ... because it has popularized a certain toolchain.
    g. ... because it does not measure up to Bell Labs in some respect.

    Now, these may be valid or not, but they are certainly irrelevant. And
    Filipp Andronov said that:

    On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:44:57 -0000, Filipp Andronov
    wrote:

    > Hmmm, my question was not about new ideological war "GNU vs Plan9".


    Other people posted much better, and more helpful, responses, cf.,

    On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:46:20 -0000, wrote:

    > C++ has not been included in Plan 9 since the third edition, but the
    > source code is available, and Steve Simon has made some updates.
    > Once you have abaco the way I said to get it, you also have Federico
    > Benavento's contrib system. With it, all you need is
    > contrib/install steve/cfront
    > Otherwise, get contrib with
    > /n/sources/contrib/fgb/root/rc/bin/contrib/install fgb/contrib
    > and then do the above. Then, to compile a C++ program:
    > c++/8c x.C # considering .C is the C++ extension
    > c++/8l -o x x.8
    > The one thing: don't use
    > #include
    > using namespace std;
    > You will need
    > #include
    > which does that for you.


    --
    Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

  5. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    * Anant Narayanan (anant@kix.in) wrote:
    > >The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
    > >development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that
    > >they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever
    > >animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind
    > >through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/
    > >want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky
    > >quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their
    > >transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If
    > >you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while
    > >others do that.

    >
    > It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning
    > GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before -
    > rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they
    > have.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Anant


    Another issue is the implicit assumption that a new environment which
    doesn't provide all the familiar things one is grown accustomed to is
    automatically defective. It's actually not that hard to just get to know
    things for a few weeks (Plan 9 really is pretty accessible) and then attempt
    to tackle usability issues that have arisen rather than trying to recreate a
    linux environment (particularly as there already is a perfectly adequate
    linux environment out there - it's called linux.) Perhaps Andrzej
    Rosłanowski put it best (speaking about set theory, though): ``If you want
    to read mathematics, first learn its language, get educated, don't complain
    about your willies.''

    Martin


  6. Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    checking the 9fans archives is a good place to start. many topics
    have already been discussed in great detail. it also gives new 9fans
    an idea of who to pay attention to and who to ignore.

    > On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel wrote:
    >
    >> If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them...
    >>
    >> Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans
    >> archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a
    >> billion times before.
    >>
    >> Some 20 years 'suddenly'...
    >>
    >> uriel

    >
    > I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who
    > are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to
    > deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the
    > hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some
    > supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way.
    >
    > The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
    > development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they
    > ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity
    > towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years,
    > should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan 9.
    > They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need
    > is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or
    > previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at least
    > stand by while others do that.
    >
    > The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in
    > the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression of
    > your post.
    >
    > --
    > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/



  7. Re: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Checking the archives - definitely a useful step, and should be considered
    as step #1 probably in all forums...

    Saying that, I tried it myself. I have spent some time on web trying to
    find "C++ and Plan 9 history"...
    The most common archive access, I managed to find, is:
    http://9fans.net/archive/
    with an option of google search through... I tried that with 'C++ Plan9'....
    and indeed got multiple pages from archive... most of which were
    interesting from historic point of view, but not too useful from
    understanding of what has been done, what has not been done, why, etc...

    The point is that above mentioned way to search archive... is not too
    useful... If somebody can advise a better way for pre-screening archives,
    the advice would be highly appreciated.

    Another point is that before I asked the question about c++ under plan 9 as
    one the newbies questions a couple of weeks ago ( just before Philipp picked
    up the ball), the archive has been searched indeed... So, Anant wish is
    already granted.

    Finally, thanks again for all comments and nice discussion on the topic.



    On Feb 4, 2008 2:22 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:

    > checking the 9fans archives is a good place to start. many topics
    > have already been discussed in great detail. it also gives new 9fans
    > an idea of who to pay attention to and who to ignore.
    >
    > > On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:01:49 -0000, Uriel wrote:
    > >
    > >> If you want roman numerals, you know where to find them...
    > >>
    > >> Inferno... and I hope the shock will send you all the way to the 9fans
    > >> archives rather than repeating the same path that has been trodden a
    > >> billion times before.
    > >>
    > >> Some 20 years 'suddenly'...
    > >>
    > >> uriel

    > >
    > > I wonder if you are bitter or something about Plan 9, or the people who
    > > are trying to learn about it. Because you seem to be trying your best to
    > > deter them. What is an "old path" to you, is "the new way" to us, the
    > > hobbyists among us particularly, and we need some incentive, some
    > > supportive character perhaps, to encourage us along the way.
    > >
    > > The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
    > > development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that they
    > > ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever animosity
    > > towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind through the years,
    > > should not have anything to do with their need/want to learn about Plan

    > 9.
    > > They do "not" need your smart-alecky quoting of Rob Pike. What they need
    > > is some guidance in their transition, regardless of their purpose or
    > > previous experiences. If you are not kind enough to help, you can at

    > least
    > > stand by while others do that.
    > >
    > > The above is not "ad hominem," by the way. I do not mean it to be so, in
    > > the least. I am only trying to point out my not-so-positive impression

    > of
    > > your post.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

    >
    >



  8. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    In article ,
    Anant Narayanan <9fans@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
    >> The fact that the late-adopters, myself included, have had previous
    >> development and/or everyday use experiences with GNU stuff and that
    >> they ask of similarities and differences, unawares of whatever
    >> animosity towards the GNU thing has been brewing in your mind
    >> through the years, should not have anything to do with their need/
    >> want to learn about Plan 9. They do "not" need your smart-alecky
    >> quoting of Rob Pike. What they need is some guidance in their
    >> transition, regardless of their purpose or previous experiences. If
    >> you are not kind enough to help, you can at least stand by while
    >> others do that.

    >
    >It helps to search the archives before posting. The issues concerning
    >GNU or C++ have already been discussed several times before -
    >rekindling the flames can only bring the old-timers to respond as they
    >have.


    Anybody have a URL link handy? Thanks.
    --
    Greg Comeau / 4.3.9 with C++0xisms now in beta!
    Comeau C/C++ ONLINE ==> http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout
    World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90.
    Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?

  9. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    9fans.net/archive

    - erik

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