Re: [9fans] A newbie question... - Plan9

This is a discussion on Re: [9fans] A newbie question... - Plan9 ; > I'm a new to Plan9, and I am trying to understand the current status of the > system. > In particular, I am wondering about the list of application available > - is there email reader? > - Web ...

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Thread: Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

  1. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    > I'm a new to Plan9, and I am trying to understand the current status of the
    > system.
    > In particular, I am wondering about the list of application available
    > - is there email reader?
    > - Web browser?
    > - office like suite = document editor, spreadsheet?
    > - is it possible to run Linux software under plan9?
    >
    > In other words, I am wondering if it is possible to switch to Plan 9 system,
    > and to use it as 'everyday machine'?


    Most of what's worth saying has already bee said, but I would note three things:
    1) Various people metioned troff. TeX is also supported, and is better at
    some things, though worse at others. Personally I use TeX.
    2) For things other people do with spreadsheets I use awk. If you keep the data
    as csv, i.e. text fields separated by commas, then awk can manipulate them easily
    and you still have the option of importing into Excel if you ever need to. I do
    everything this way: students grades, financial accounts, etc. The editor sam
    has a simple facility for piping a file through a command, in this case awk, so
    you can update everything with a few mouse clicks.
    3) Consider running plan9ports rather than a full plan9 installation. I've done
    both. Which is better depends on what you are doing.
    --
    John Stalker
    School of Mathematics
    Trinity College Dublin
    tel +353 1 896 1983
    fax +353 1 896 2282

  2. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Thank you everyone for your speedy and informative replies.

    In my everyday work, I'm using gcc, web browser, instant messenger to
    communicate with the rest of the team,
    and occasionally office suite to provide reports to the customers...

    It seems like Plan9 can handle the tasks ( at least most of them ), so I am
    tempting to try it ...

    Thanks once again for info.

    Michael.


  3. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Another question from newbie :

    I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language for Plan9;

    I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the messages I
    saw)...

    Thank for your attention.
    Michael.


  4. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    C++ has not been included in Plan 9 since the third edition, but the
    source code is available, and Steve Simon has made some updates.

    Once you have abaco the way I said to get it, you also have Federico
    Benavento's contrib system. With it, all you need is

    contrib/install steve/cfront

    Otherwise, get contrib with

    /n/sources/contrib/fgb/root/rc/bin/contrib/install fgb/contrib

    and then do the above. Then, to compile a C++ program:

    c++/8c x.C # considering .C is the C++ extension
    c++/8l -o x x.8

    The one thing: don't use

    #include
    using namespace std;

    You will need

    #include

    which does that for you.

    On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:

    > Another question from newbie :
    >
    > I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    > for Plan9;
    > I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    > - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    > - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    > - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    > messages I saw)...
    >
    > Thank for your attention.
    > Michael.
    >




  5. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though.

    On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:

    > Another question from newbie :
    >
    > I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    > for Plan9;
    > I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    > - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    > - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    > - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    > messages I saw)...
    >
    > Thank for your attention.
    > Michael.
    >




  6. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Hello everyone
    I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about it

    And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf,
    automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some
    alternative?

    I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any
    documentation about how i should do this in "plan9 style" )

    PS: sorry for my horrible English

    2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    >
    > And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though.
    >
    > On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:
    >
    >
    > Another question from newbie :
    >
    > I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language for Plan9;
    > I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    > - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    > - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    > - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the messages I
    > saw)...
    >
    > Thank for your attention.
    > Michael.
    >
    >
    >


  7. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean
    way to port alien software using APE:

    page /sys/doc/ape.ps

    On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:

    > Hello everyone
    > I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about
    > it
    >
    > And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf,
    > automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some
    > alternative?
    >
    > I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any
    > documentation about how i should do this in "plan9 style" )
    >
    > PS: sorry for my horrible English
    >
    > 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    >>
    >> And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though.
    >>
    >> On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> Another question from newbie :
    >>
    >> I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    >> for Plan9;
    >> I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    >> - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    >> - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    >> - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    >> messages I
    >> saw)...
    >>
    >> Thank for your attention.
    >> Michael.
    >>
    >>
    >>



  8. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Thanks for a fast reply )
    I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual
    after that, i will post thous here.

    2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean
    > way to port alien software using APE:
    >
    > page /sys/doc/ape.ps
    >
    > On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    >
    > > Hello everyone
    > > I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about
    > > it
    > >
    > > And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf,
    > > automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some
    > > alternative?
    > >
    > > I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any
    > > documentation about how i should do this in "plan9 style" )
    > >
    > > PS: sorry for my horrible English
    > >
    > > 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > >>
    > >> And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work, though.
    > >>
    > >> On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Another question from newbie :
    > >>
    > >> I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    > >> for Plan9;
    > >> I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    > >> - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    > >> - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    > >> - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    > >> messages I
    > >> saw)...
    > >>
    > >> Thank for your attention.
    > >> Michael.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    >


  9. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    If the archive actually has a configure script, the best way to start
    configuring is with:

    % ape/psh
    # ./configure --prefix=$home --build=i386 --bindir=$home/bin/
    $objtype --lib=$home/lib

    On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:

    > Thanks for a fast reply )
    > I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual
    > after that, i will post thous here.
    >
    > 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    >> Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean
    >> way to port alien software using APE:
    >>
    >> page /sys/doc/ape.ps
    >>
    >> On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hello everyone
    >>> I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about
    >>> it
    >>>
    >>> And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf,
    >>> automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some
    >>> alternative?
    >>>
    >>> I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any
    >>> documentation about how i should do this in "plan9 style" )
    >>>
    >>> PS: sorry for my horrible English
    >>>
    >>> 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    >>>>
    >>>> And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work,
    >>>> though.
    >>>>
    >>>> On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Another question from newbie :
    >>>>
    >>>> I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    >>>> for Plan9;
    >>>> I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    >>>> - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    >>>> - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    >>>> - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    >>>> messages I
    >>>> saw)...
    >>>>
    >>>> Thank for your attention.
    >>>> Michael.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>

    >>
    >>



  10. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Thanks, it is great news. Actually i have been shocked, may first
    point of view was that it is too much for me, try to port some
    software without gnu autotools support.
    But if autotools could "fly" under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think )

    I have forgot, another one question: what about Java under Plan9? Is
    it possible to have JVM? Or no suitable package available? ))

    2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > If the archive actually has a configure script, the best way to start
    > configuring is with:
    >
    > % ape/psh
    > # ./configure --prefix=$home --build=i386 --bindir=$home/bin/
    > $objtype --lib=$home/lib
    >
    > On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    >
    > > Thanks for a fast reply )
    > > I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual
    > > after that, i will post thous here.
    > >
    > > 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > >> Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean
    > >> way to port alien software using APE:
    > >>
    > >> page /sys/doc/ape.ps
    > >>
    > >> On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> Hello everyone
    > >>> I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about
    > >>> it
    > >>>
    > >>> And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system (autoconf,
    > >>> automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some
    > >>> alternative?
    > >>>
    > >>> I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't find any
    > >>> documentation about how i should do this in "plan9 style" )
    > >>>
    > >>> PS: sorry for my horrible English
    > >>>
    > >>> 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > >>>>
    > >>>> And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work,
    > >>>> though.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Another question from newbie :
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    > >>>> for Plan9;
    > >>>> I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    > >>>> - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    > >>>> - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    > >>>> - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    > >>>> messages I
    > >>>> saw)...
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Thank for your attention.
    > >>>> Michael.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    >


  11. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    > But if autotools could "fly" under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think )

    autotools is every bit as bad as one could think.


  12. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    An implementation of Kaffe, a FOSS Java virtual machine, is available
    for Plan 9. I have never gotten it to work.

    http://plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp/netlib/kaffe/

    On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:

    > Thanks, it is great news. Actually i have been shocked, may first
    > point of view was that it is too much for me, try to port some
    > software without gnu autotools support.
    > But if autotools could "fly" under Plan9 it is not so bad as i
    > think )
    >
    > I have forgot, another one question: what about Java under Plan9? Is
    > it possible to have JVM? Or no suitable package available? ))
    >
    > 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    >> If the archive actually has a configure script, the best way to start
    >> configuring is with:
    >>
    >> % ape/psh
    >> # ./configure --prefix=$home --build=i386 --bindir=$home/bin/
    >> $objtype --lib=$home/lib
    >>
    >> On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    >>
    >>> Thanks for a fast reply )
    >>> I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual
    >>> after that, i will post thous here.
    >>>
    >>> 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    >>>> Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean
    >>>> way to port alien software using APE:
    >>>>
    >>>> page /sys/doc/ape.ps
    >>>>
    >>>> On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hello everyone
    >>>>> I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about
    >>>>> it
    >>>>>
    >>>>> And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system
    >>>>> (autoconf,
    >>>>> automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some
    >>>>> alternative?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't
    >>>>> find any
    >>>>> documentation about how i should do this in "plan9 style" )
    >>>>>
    >>>>> PS: sorry for my horrible English
    >>>>>
    >>>>> 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work,
    >>>>>> though.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Another question from newbie :
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    >>>>>> for Plan9;
    >>>>>> I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    >>>>>> - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    >>>>>> - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    >>>>>> - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    >>>>>> messages I
    >>>>>> saw)...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Thank for your attention.
    >>>>>> Michael.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>

    >>
    >>



  13. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Thanks! ))

    2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > An implementation of Kaffe, a FOSS Java virtual machine, is available
    > for Plan 9. I have never gotten it to work.
    >
    > http://plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp/netlib/kaffe/
    >
    > On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    >
    > > Thanks, it is great news. Actually i have been shocked, may first
    > > point of view was that it is too much for me, try to port some
    > > software without gnu autotools support.
    > > But if autotools could "fly" under Plan9 it is not so bad as i
    > > think )
    > >
    > > I have forgot, another one question: what about Java under Plan9? Is
    > > it possible to have JVM? Or no suitable package available? ))
    > >
    > > 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > >> If the archive actually has a configure script, the best way to start
    > >> configuring is with:
    > >>
    > >> % ape/psh
    > >> # ./configure --prefix=$home --build=i386 --bindir=$home/bin/
    > >> $objtype --lib=$home/lib
    > >>
    > >> On Feb 2, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> Thanks for a fast reply )
    > >>> I'll check out documents about APE, if my questions will be actual
    > >>> after that, i will post thous here.
    > >>>
    > >>> 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > >>>> Autotools is in the GCC package. However, there is a nice and clean
    > >>>> way to port alien software using APE:
    > >>>>
    > >>>> page /sys/doc/ape.ps
    > >>>>
    > >>>> On Feb 2, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Filipp Andronov wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> Hello everyone
    > >>>>> I'm newbie in Plan9 system, so i have a couple of questions about
    > >>>>> it
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> And the first one looks like this: does GNU build system
    > >>>>> (autoconf,
    > >>>>> automake, e.t.c) has been ported in Plan9? Or maybe there is some
    > >>>>> alternative?
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> I want port some software from linux to Plan9, but couldn't
    > >>>>> find any
    > >>>>> documentation about how i should do this in "plan9 style" )
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> PS: sorry for my horrible English
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> 2008/2/2, Pietro Gagliardi :
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> And yes, gcc has been ported. I have never gotten it to work,
    > >>>>>> though.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Michael Andronov wrote:
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Another question from newbie :
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> I have noticed some discussion(s) on Internet about C++ language
    > >>>>>> for Plan9;
    > >>>>>> I'm wondering what is a bottom line of the story:
    > >>>>>> - is there a C++ compiler? Any plans for it?
    > >>>>>> - has it been 'banned' from Plan9?
    > >>>>>> - has gcc been ported to Plan9? ( as was suggested in one of the
    > >>>>>> messages I
    > >>>>>> saw)...
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>> Thank for your attention.
    > >>>>>> Michael.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    >


  14. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination...

    uriel

    On Feb 2, 2008 6:10 PM, Charles Forsyth wrote:
    > > But if autotools could "fly" under Plan9 it is not so bad as i think )

    >
    > autotools is every bit as bad as one could think.
    >
    >


  15. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    * Uriel (uriel99@gmail.com) wrote:
    > Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination...


    Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine.


  16. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    On 02/02/2008, Martin Neubauer wrote:
    > * Uriel (uriel99@gmail.com) wrote:
    > > Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination...

    >
    > Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine.


    So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness?
    Just curious.

    --
    Fidonet: 2:345/432.2

  17. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    On Feb 2, 2008 2:22 PM, Juan M. Mendez wrote:

    > So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness?


    I mostly manage to avoid working on things where I've had to use them
    as a producer, so I don't have the whole toolchain lying around. I'm
    more than happy to judge them on their output, though. Just to pick
    the first gnu* directory i spotted in my src directory in my $home,
    gnutls:

    : vav; wc config* Make*
    1500 4928 44208 config.guess
    622 3005 17933 config.h
    621 2773 16967 config.h.in
    6769 26859 211980 config.log
    571 1566 14869 config.rpath
    1548 5795 57952 config.status
    1608 4255 32448 config.sub
    46730 159658 1393861 configure
    632 1709 19218 configure.in
    838 3222 27923 Makefile
    59 333 2210 Makefile.am
    838 3158 27552 Makefile.in
    62336 217261 1867121 total

    That's an awful lot of work just to get the thing to build. Oh, but
    it's all in the service of portability, I hear you say! Well, let's
    contrast this to what we see on Plan 9:

    : root; pwd
    /sys/src
    : root; wc mkfile mkfile.proto 9/*/mkfile cmd/mkfile cmd/mklib
    cmd/mkmany cmd/mkone cmd/mksyslib cmd/*/mkfile | tail -1
    5323 8409 78037 total

    That's for nearly every command, plus al the kernels. Every
    architecture. Less than a tenth the size. And there's nothing magical
    about Plan 9 here. Once can build things on Unix in just the same way;
    some packages manage to resist the temptation.

    That level of gluttony would, perhaps, be forgivable if it worked
    reliably. But god forbid you try to do something slightly farther
    afield than the packager anticipated (which, frequently, is Linux/386
    plus maybe a BSD or two), or that the versions of the tools used
    anticipated. Things will break, badly, in arbitrary places in an
    incomprehensible mess of interconnected dependencies.

    It's just the wrong solution to portability.
    Anthony

  18. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    >
    > So what are the facts to back up so many posts regarding autotools badness?
    > Just curious.
    >


    part of the issue is that autotool solves a problem that doesn't
    exist on plan 9 systems. one doesn't need to test for compilers,
    exotic library problems or portability issues.

    (small rant: unfortunately, porting a lot of gnu stuff to plan 9 makes some
    sort of compatability goo necessary again.)

    another problem with autoconf is it encourages a style of
    programming that exploits every last nook and cranny of
    a system's & compiler's capabilities when the vast majority
    of applications will do just fine with the least common
    denominator. if one's goal is to run on a variety of unix
    systems, this just is poor engineering.

    as a case in point, my sacrificial linux machine is a 993mhz
    pIII. mplayer, an application one would think would benefit
    from fancy optimizations on such a slow machine, shows absolutely
    no visible performance benefit from sse2 instructions. it
    is fast enough already.

    imho, p9p and russ' unix extracts from p9p show a much
    cleaner way to port unix stuff. his method requires about 10
    lines of system-specific stuff and about 75 lines
    of Makefile.

    one last gripe: autotools often take longer to ./configure
    than to compile with gcc. curious that gcc is famed for
    slowness.

    - erik

  19. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    Autotools increases portability by 57%, but then decreases
    portability by 75% (mv -f, ls -i not available in Plan 9), decreases
    usability by 750%, and decreases sanity by 7500%. I wanted to
    contribute to AbIWord but it took me a long time before I got it
    built. :-( Then I discovered troff in the back of Kernighan/Pike and
    am much happier :-)

    On Feb 2, 2008, at 1:27 PM, Martin Neubauer wrote:

    > * Uriel (uriel99@gmail.com) wrote:
    >> Autotools badness is way beyond most peoples wildest imagination...

    >
    > Unfortunately, you don't have to imagine.
    >



  20. Re: [9fans] A newbie question...

    * Pietro Gagliardi (pietro10@mac.com) wrote:
    > Autotools increases portability by 57%, but then decreases


    Actually, they increase the _impression_ of portability by 57%. The other
    effects are real, though.


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