[9fans] A sad story and a question - Plan9

This is a discussion on [9fans] A sad story and a question - Plan9 ; Hello. I performed term% /usr/glenda/bin/rc/pull today and I noticed some new updates to files for commands. So I did term% cd /sys/src/cmd term% mk all and waited (primarily for GhostScript). At the end there were errors. So I went back ...

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  1. [9fans] A sad story and a question

    Hello. I performed

    term% /usr/glenda/bin/rc/pull

    today and I noticed some new updates to files for commands. So I did

    term% cd /sys/src/cmd
    term% mk all

    and waited (primarily for GhostScript). At the end there were errors.
    So I went back and tried to see if

    term% cd ..
    term% mk clean

    would fix it. Nope - it reset my date, among others. So now I'm going
    to reinstall Plan 9. Oh, and when I tried to back up my files to my
    FTP server, it wiped some of the files (a important one was updated
    on my Mac OS X system, though, and two were not touched, so
    everything is good now). :-( So now I'm going back to reinstall Plan
    9 and ask this question:

    If an update is retrieved with glenda's pull, do you then perform an
    mk all on the new sources?

  2. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    No, matching binaries will be built the night following the
    source changes, and those binaries will be installed on
    sources (except for kernels and 9load). So just pulling
    periodically will keep you current.

  3. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    So I just ruined my system. Oh well, these things happen :-) I did
    manage to back up the most important parts (my colors library is in /
    n/sources/contrib/pietro; I also have some shell scripts such as
    setupnet, which sets up the network, /n/sources, etc. which were put
    on my FTP server).

    On Nov 9, 2007, at 9:49 PM, geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:

    > No, matching binaries will be built the night following the
    > source changes, and those binaries will be installed on
    > sources (except for kernels and 9load). So just pulling
    > periodically will keep you current.



  4. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    > So I just ruined my system. Oh well, these things happen :-)


    you have a venti? Maybe people here can tell you the easy way to back
    up to an older score -- like pre-ruin.

    Nothing's ever really "gone" on plan 9.

    ron

  5. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
    sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)

    On Nov 9, 2007, at 11:50 PM, ron minnich wrote:

    > On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    >> So I just ruined my system. Oh well, these things happen :-)

    >
    > you have a venti? Maybe people here can tell you the easy way to back
    > up to an older score -- like pre-ruin.
    >
    > Nothing's ever really "gone" on plan 9.
    >
    > ron



  6. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    get a bigger hard drive. 160g hard drives can be had for $45.
    there was a time when 100gb was considered "infinite" storage.

    - erik

  7. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    > I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
    > sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)


    If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important bits of Plan 9.

    ron

  8. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    On Nov 10, 2007 9:31 AM, ron minnich wrote:
    > On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    > > I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
    > > sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)

    >
    > If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important bits of Plan 9.
    >
    > ron
    >


    I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports. I bet it's a
    better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)

    Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.

    Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
    who worked on that! That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
    to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.

    Dave

  9. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    What if Time Machine is implemented around Venti?

    On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:58 PM, David Leimbach wrote:

    > On Nov 10, 2007 9:31 AM, ron minnich wrote:
    >> On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    >>> I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
    >>> sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)

    >>
    >> If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important
    >> bits of Plan 9.
    >>
    >> ron
    >>

    >
    > I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports. I bet it's a
    > better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)
    >
    > Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.
    >
    > Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
    > who worked on that! That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
    > to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.
    >
    > Dave



  10. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    > > If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important bits of Plan 9.
    > >

    >
    > I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports. I bet it's a
    > better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)
    >
    > Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.


    I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
    plan9. I have been thinking about openGL on plan9. Has
    anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?

    > Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
    > who worked on that! That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
    > to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.


    I migrated one FreeBSD machine to zfs and so now venti
    happens to be running on top of zfs. Probably bit of
    an overkill...

  11. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    > I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
    > plan9. I have been thinking about openGL on plan9. Has
    > anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?


    the free opengl libraries (mesagl) were ported long time ago without
    any of the optimizations. they were never tied to the windowing
    environment however. glut was never ported, nor was a replacement for
    it ever written.

    it is a good exercise in Plan 9 and it's doable within the APE
    framework, so not too big of an effort. making it fast though is much
    more difficult

  12. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    >> I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
    >> plan9. I have been thinking about openGL on plan9. Has
    >> anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?

    >
    > the free opengl libraries (mesagl) were ported long time ago without
    > any of the optimizations. they were never tied to the windowing
    > environment however. glut was never ported, nor was a replacement for
    > it ever written.
    >
    > it is a good exercise in Plan 9 and it's doable within the APE
    > framework, so not too big of an effort. making it fast though is much
    > more difficult


    Perhaps some of the reason nobody is doing much with 3D is that a lot of
    people use drawterm all the time, which is less than ideal. I dread to think
    of DOOM on drawterm over my connection


    John


  13. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

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    >
    > I suspect a lot of eyecandy would be easier to implement on
    > plan9. I have been thinking about openGL on plan9. Has
    > anyone looked at adding openGL to Plan9?


    Disclaimer: I work for Intel, in a graphics group tied closely to
    GPUs. All my words are mine, as are my opinions, and don't represent
    Intel.

    There is no deep technical reason not to add OpenGL to plan9. It is,
    however, one hell of a big effort if you want hardware acceleration,
    not easily undertaken by hobbyists. Each hardware device to support
    requires substantial driver work and compiler work - shader compilers
    must be targeted to particular GPUs these days.

    If I were going the route of enabling 3D graphics on Plan9 I'd
    probably flat out ditch the OpenGL model. Instead I'd probably treat
    the GPU as a remote machine, and use 9P to provide namespace in which
    you could bind textures, vertex buffers, frame buffers, shaders, and
    so on. A control channel would be used to launch tasks using these
    named resources. There's minor issues involving virtualization in
    the absence of sufficient resources, but I'm hoping the days of small
    graphics cards will be behind us long before I can get around to
    coding such a driver...

    Paul

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  14. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    On Nov 10, 2007 11:00 AM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    > What if Time Machine is implemented around Venti?
    >


    I suspected initially that it was, and while I've not looked into it,
    I tend to think it isn't :-)

    Dave

    >
    > On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:58 PM, David Leimbach wrote:
    >
    > > On Nov 10, 2007 9:31 AM, ron minnich wrote:
    > >> On 11/9/07, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    > >>> I don't have sufficient hard disk space for Venti. I don't even have
    > >>> sufficient hard disk space to back up my Mac :-)
    > >>
    > >> If you don't have venti you're missing one of the most important
    > >> bits of Plan 9.
    > >>
    > >> ron
    > >>

    > >
    > > I've been meaning to set up one with Plan 9 Ports. I bet it's a
    > > better Time Machine than Time Machine is :-)
    > >
    > > Might be "fun" to get a GUI wrapped around it.
    > >
    > > Now that Plan 9 Port is working on Leopard (Thanks Russ and everyone
    > > who worked on that! That was great turnaround time!) all I need/want
    > > to do is get another external hard drive before I begin tinkering.
    > >
    > > Dave

    >
    >


  15. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    On 11/10/07, Paul Lalonde wrote:

    // ...I'm hoping the days of small graphics cards will be behind us
    // long before I can get around to coding such a driver...

    The cheapest ATI card I could find on their website has 128MB of DDR.
    The lowest of NVidia's modern line comes with 256MB. Clock speeds are
    in the 400Mhz range and go up from there. You can get GPUs past the
    Ghz mark and within spitting distance of the GB mark.

    I think the days of small graphics cards were behind us a few years ago now.
    Anthony

  16. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    On Nov 10, 2007 6:28 PM, Paul Lalonde wrote:
    > If I were going the route of enabling 3D graphics on Plan9 I'd
    > probably flat out ditch the OpenGL model. Instead...


    The little I know of OpenGL led me to think that it was also created
    to be run over a network, but I have no idea how big a mismatch there
    is between the model it assumes and 9P. I assume you have a better
    view of things?

    --Joel

  17. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

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    On 10-Nov-07, at 4:27 PM, Anthony Sorace wrote:
    > The cheapest ATI card I could find on their website has 128MB of DDR.
    > The lowest of NVidia's modern line comes with 256MB. Clock speeds are
    > in the 400Mhz range and go up from there. You can get GPUs past the
    > Ghz mark and within spitting distance of the GB mark.
    >
    > I think the days of small graphics cards were behind us a few years
    > ago now.
    > Anthony


    It must be a matter of expectations - the apps I work with take that
    256MB of ram, eat it for breakfast, and ask for more. The
    performance implications of round trips over the bus to main memory
    to swap/page are too much for me to put up with.
    But then, I'm rendering substantial 3-D environments; for desktop eye-
    candy, it's more than enough.

    Paul

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  18. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

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    Modern graphics libraries essentially treat the GPU like a remote
    host - even over fast PCIe it's far enough away that when you're
    aiming for 16.6ms frame times you can't afford much bus traffic.
    Instead, the intention is that most of your data is resident in GPU
    memory and only a small fraction of the used data is transfered from
    the host every frame. 9P is probably not ideal, but the advantages
    of being able to refer to resources so easily could be compelling.
    I'd love to be able to mount a tar file of textures and vertex
    buffers and have a cache on the GPU manage those for me. It's a much
    simpler user model than the current myriad ways of setting up
    different data types.

    Paul

    On 10-Nov-07, at 5:12 PM, Joel C. Salomon wrote:

    > On Nov 10, 2007 6:28 PM, Paul Lalonde wrote:
    >> If I were going the route of enabling 3D graphics on Plan9 I'd
    >> probably flat out ditch the OpenGL model. Instead...

    >
    > The little I know of OpenGL led me to think that it was also created
    > to be run over a network, but I have no idea how big a mismatch there
    > is between the model it assumes and 9P. I assume you have a better
    > view of things?
    >
    > --Joel


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  19. Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    > What if Time Machine is implemented around Venti?

    It's implemented around ln.

    http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/ma...hine-internals

    Russ


  20. 3d graphics (was Re: [9fans] A sad story and a question

    > Disclaimer: I work for Intel, in a graphics group tied closely to
    > GPUs. All my words are mine, as are my opinions, and don't represent
    > Intel.

    ....
    > Instead I'd probably treat
    > the GPU as a remote machine, and use 9P to provide namespace in which
    > you could bind textures, vertex buffers, frame buffers, shaders, and
    > so on. A control channel would be used to launch tasks using these
    > named resources.


    That seems like a lot of fun, but wouldn't it involve doing a
    from-scratch design? Or may be you are talking about a thin
    layer that provides access to what a GPU based controller
    provides? Something on the level of DRI/DRM? I'd be happy
    if this can be done for even one graphics card.

    May be then an openGL compatible layer can be added on top
    for all the existing apps one'd like to port to Plan9. I
    don't foresee anyone doing a rewrite of google earth.

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