PC connectivity - Palmtop

This is a discussion on PC connectivity - Palmtop ; Forgive me if this is a FAQ, but I have a Palmone Zire 72. There is noting much wrong with it except that it's connectivity to a PC is like something out of the CP/M era. What is needed is ...

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Thread: PC connectivity

  1. PC connectivity

    Forgive me if this is a FAQ,
    but I have a Palmone Zire 72.
    There is noting much wrong with it except that it's connectivity to a
    PC is like something out of the CP/M era.

    What is needed is for the Palm, it's SD card, and it's various
    internal RAM stores to appear, to the PC, to be external data devices.

    You get this functionality with MP3 players, cameras, phones, and
    other divices with USB connectivity, and I really miss it with the
    Zire.

    It was a couple of years ago that I bought this unit. Has any decent
    drivers or other software been written for a Windows PC to connect
    transparently to a Palm?

    The Palm Desktop and HotSync that came with the unit are, as I said,
    too clumsy.

    Thanks,
    Patrick

  2. Re: PC connectivity

    You can try:

    1. Card Reader, or
    http://software.palm.com/ph/html/dis...5&currency=PHP
    "Connect your Palm device to a desktop just like a usual USB or
    Bluetooth card reader!"

    2. Softick Card Export II
    http://software.palm.com/ph/html/dis...8&currency=PHP
    "Turn your Palm into handy USB card reader and access files stored on
    SD/MMC media from the desktop leaving card in expansion slot"

    I personally use Card Reader on my Palm T|3 and T|X. You'll be able
    to access the SD/MMC card from your desktop, although you still won't
    be able to look at the Palm's internal memory.

    On Dec 30, 5:23 am, hog.bad...@mbox.bol.bg wrote:
    > Forgive me if this is a FAQ,
    > but I have a Palmone Zire 72.
    > There is noting much wrong with it except that it's connectivity to a
    > PC is like something out of the CP/M era.
    >
    > What is needed is for the Palm, it's SD card, and it's various
    > internal RAM stores to appear, to the PC, to be external data devices.
    >
    > You get this functionality with MP3 players, cameras, phones, and
    > other divices with USB connectivity, and I really miss it with the
    > Zire.
    >
    > It was a couple of years ago that I bought this unit. Has any decent
    > drivers or other software been written for a Windows PC to connect
    > transparently to a Palm?
    >
    > The Palm Desktop and HotSync that came with the unit are, as I said,
    > too clumsy.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Patrick



  3. Re: PC connectivity

    lsf_palm wrote:
    >>
    >> The Palm Desktop and HotSync that came with the unit are, as I said,
    >> too clumsy.
    >>

    WRONG! If you think you can manually reliably do the Hotsync functions you WILLbe sorry.
    --
    Gil W0MN Yanoff +, the PDA reader
    Creed en las obras y no en las palabras

  4. Re: PC connectivity

    I don't want HotSync .... that whole paradigm is archaic. It involves
    storing the data in two places, and then keeping both copies in sync.

    --

    Gil Baron wrote:
    > lsf_palm wrote:
    > >>
    > >> The Palm Desktop and HotSync that came with the unit are, as I said,
    > >> too clumsy.
    > >>

    > WRONG! If you think you can manually reliably do the Hotsync functions you WILL be sorry.
    > --
    > Gil W0MN Yanoff +, the PDA reader
    > Creed en las obras y no en las palabras


  5. Re: PC connectivity

    > I don't want HotSync .... that whole paradigm is archaic. It involves
    > storing the data in two places, and then keeping both copies in sync.


    What do you propose instead? If the data is stored in only =one= place, you need to have access to that place everywhere you want it. The internet is not such an animal, much as we might like it to be. For me, at least, a local copy of my data is very important.

    It needs to be backed up. That involves another copy, no matter how you slice it. And with two copies, they need to be synched.

    Jose
    --
    You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

  6. Re: PC connectivity


    My camera and MP3 player contain files that are no longer on my home
    network. They don't need to be there. If I want them on my home
    network I can plug in the USB cable and copy them by drag and drop or
    by any of the methods that the windows system supports.

    My Palm is a black box. I don't want a black box. I want
    transparency. Palm devices have been around for many years now, so
    surely there exists the knowledge and experience to produce a device
    driver that gives this transparency.

    A backup is not the same thing at all.

    Patrick

    Jose wrote:
    > > I don't want HotSync .... that whole paradigm is archaic. It involves
    > > storing the data in two places, and then keeping both copies in sync.

    >
    > What do you propose instead? If the data is stored in only =one= place, you need to have access to that place everywhere you want it. The internet is not such an animal, much as we might like it to be. For me, at least, a local copy of my data is very important.
    >
    > It needs to be backed up. That involves another copy, no matter how you slice it. And with two copies, they need to be synched.
    >
    > Jose
    > --
    > You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    > for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


  7. Re: PC connectivity



    Jose wrote:
    > > I don't want HotSync .... that whole paradigm is archaic. It involves
    > > storing the data in two places, and then keeping both copies in sync.

    >
    > What do you propose instead? If the data is stored in only =one= place, you need to have access to that place everywhere you want it. The internet is not such an animal, much as we might like it to be. For me, at least, a local copy of my data is very important.
    >
    > It needs to be backed up. That involves another copy, no matter how you slice it. And with two copies, they need to be synched.
    >
    > Jose
    > --
    > You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    > for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


    A backup is a copy of the data that is kept for backup purposes. It
    is not an alternative method of accessing the data, because, for
    purposes of guaranteeing the validity of the data, data should only be
    stored in one place, and updated to that one place and accessed from
    that one place. This is database security 101. A backup is a copy
    that has only one use ... to replace the original data should that
    become necessary.

    Palm's method of storing a copy of the PDA data on the PC and trying
    to keep that in sync is inefficient, clumsy and plain bad procedure.

  8. Re: PC connectivity

    > My camera and MP3 player contain files that are no longer on my home
    > network. They don't need to be there.


    What sort of files?

    > Palm devices have been around for many years now, so
    > surely there exists the knowledge and experience to produce a device
    > driver that gives this transparency.


    I believe there are programs you can get that show and let you manipulate the file structure on the Palm.

    > A backup [...]is not an alternative method of accessing the data


    Point made. I will add however that I like the ability to access (enter via the keyboard and C&P) my data via the computer as well as access (read and make minor changes) on the road, away from the machine. The convenience of using my home computer without having to connect my palm outweighs the data integrity issue for me, as I do not need to "prove" my data to anyone. I know where it came from and where it's been.

    What do you propose as an alternative to hotsync?

    Jose
    --
    You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

  9. Re: PC connectivity

    With a compatable USB device driver, plugging in the PDA would expose
    one or more 'external data storage devices' in Windows Explorer. Drag
    and drop the whole device into your chosen PC folder.

    Currently, after sync, the PDA data is available in an obscure folder
    where you have to be a hacker to know how to get at, except through
    the non-windows-paradigm-compliant Palm Desktop.

    If you want two-way synchronising, resolving differences in both the
    PC and PDA copy, then there is Windows OS software that does that, but
    I have no experience with using it.

    Jose wrote:

    > What do you propose as an alternative to hotsync?
    >
    > Jose


  10. Re: PC connectivity

    On Wednesday 02 January 2008 10:33 am, in MID
    ,
    hog.badger@mbox.bol.bg (hog.badger@mbox.bol.bg) wrote:

    [...]

    > Palm's method of storing a copy of the PDA data on the PC and trying
    > to keep that in sync is inefficient, clumsy and plain bad procedure.


    I guess it rather depends on what you do with your Palm - what data you keep
    on it, how that data is used...etc.

    For me, there is no "PDA data" or "PC data" - it's just my data, that I may
    need/want when I'm using my PDA/PC. Equally, if I'm at either my PC or PDA
    and want to update something I just do it using the device at hand. The
    Hotsync process takes care of the rest.

    regards,
    --
    Ian...

  11. Re: PC connectivity

    >> What do you propose as an alternative to hotsync?

    > With a compatable USB device driver, plugging in the PDA would expose
    > one or more 'external data storage devices' in Windows Explorer. Drag
    > and drop the whole device into your chosen PC folder.


    Well, er, that won't work for some things. For example, the Microsoft Word document editor in the palm does not support =all= of Microsoft Word, but it lets you edit, and lets you sync. I speculate that it records your edits rather than the results of your edits. Then when you sync, it re-does those edits on the document that is on your computer, thus keeping the non-compatible formatting in your computer's document. Simply dragging a copy of what's on the Palm would erase any non-compatible formatting.

    Personally, since I don't =know= how sync works, I don't use it much with external documents. I do understand better how it works with the built-in palm apps (based on how it handles double-edits) but wish that the book were more informative under the hood.

    Jose
    --
    You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

  12. Re: PC connectivity

    ian wrote:
    >and want to update something I just do it using the device at hand. The
    >Hotsync process takes care of the rest.

    There is no other solution that can work with two indepenant devices. If you donot change it in both places it is extremely reliable. If you do then ONLY youcan decide which copy is correct. Timestamping is a path to disaster called backleveling.
    --
    Gil W0MN Yanoff +, the PDA reader
    Creed en las obras y no en las palabras

  13. Re: PC connectivity



    Jose wrote:
    >
    > Well, er, that won't work for some things. For example, the Microsoft Word document editor in the palm does not support =all= of Microsoft Word, but it lets you edit, and lets you sync. I speculate that it records your edits rather than the results of your edits. Then when you sync, it re-does those edits on the document that is on your computer, thus keeping the non-compatible formatting in your computer's document. Simply dragging a copy of what's on the Palm would erase any non-compatible formatting.
    > ..
    >
    > Jose
    > --
    > You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    > for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


    Thanks for the explanation. If I'd appreciated how bizzare that was
    several years ago I would not have bought the Palm. It looks like my
    next PDA will be something from Bill Gates' stable.

  14. Re: PC connectivity

    > It looks like my
    > next PDA will be something from Bill Gates' stable.


    Ouch!

    > If I'd appreciated how bizzare that was
    > several years ago I would not have bought the Palm.


    It's bizzare for a reason. To fully support all of Word's features (thus allowing a drag-over) would require a processor equal to a fast Pentium, or the patients of an entire HMO. Windows-powered PDAs were extremely slow partly for that reason (and partly because the entire purpose of Windows is to slow down a fast computer and sell memory chips!) PDA processors are getting faster (and more memorious) but so are PCs, and it's a race.

    The early days of DOS and the original Mac had a similar flavor.

    Anything you can stick in your pocket will be a compromise for years to come. (If you knew how bizzare the Windows devices are, you would go back to pencil and paper.

    Jose
    --
    You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

  15. Re: PC connectivity

    On Wed, Jan 02, 2008 at 09:20:08PM -0800, hog.badger@mbox.bol.bg wrote:

    > Thanks for the explanation. If I'd appreciated how bizzare that was
    > several years ago I would not have bought the Palm. It looks like my
    > next PDA will be something from Bill Gates' stable.


    If you knew how bizarre the beasts in that stable are then you wouldn't
    buy from it. But good luck.

    --
    David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

    There are many different types of sausages. The best are
    from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany.
    -- seen in alt.2eggs...

  16. Re: PC connectivity

    You all may well be correct. I've only used a subset of the Palm's
    functions.
    Mostly it is voice recorder for lectures. Occasionally a camera,
    occasionally a PDF reader, occasionally a calculator. The only thing
    I really missed was Excel.

    Paddy

  17. Re: PC connectivity

    > You all may well be correct. I've only used a subset of the Palm's
    > functions.
    > Mostly it is voice recorder for lectures. Occasionally a camera,
    > occasionally a PDF reader, occasionally a calculator. The only thing
    > I really missed was Excel.


    OIC.

    I went back to your first post, and yes, for your uses, hotsync is inappropriate. Hotsync was designed for something else (and does that job admirably).

    I have the Tungsten E and it uses SD cards. I used to have the Palm VIIx, and it didn't, although for a short while it was able to connect to the internet via Plam's pager system. That was cool, and it was the reason I got the thing in the first place.

    In any case, I too wished I could transfer ordinary documents (just text would be fine) from the Palm to and from a guest PC I might have access to while travelling. The Palm VIIx could only do it if I Emailed the thing to myself from one device and picked it up with the other device. It was a pain, but was possible. (The other way involved IR, and most guest computers didn't have IR and the driver).

    Now with the card, I can remove the card and put it in a ($10) USB card reader. The computer sees it as a drive, and if you know where to put things, the Palm can read what you put in. It's a little clumsier than using the hotsync cable and just having the palm be recognized as a drive (I bet there is software for that) but it does help prevent the palm file system from getting corrupted.

    I'm not familiar with the 72, but if it uses SD cards (or any other common type), you can get a separate USB card reader and do the same thing I do. The caveat is that you will need to create folders on the chip and then be careful where you put things. For example, the Palm does not natively read text files, but if you save it as a Word document, Documents-to-go's Word program will be able to read it. You can then copy and paste the text into your notepad or calendar or whatever. Similar for music and pictures; each has their own folder and preferred file formats.

    Excel is available with Documents-to-go (but I don't know if there's a version compatible with the 72.

    Jose
    --
    You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

  18. Re: PC connectivity

    On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 02:33:41 -0800 (PST), hog.badger@mbox.bol.bg wrote:

    >Palm's method of storing a copy of the PDA data on the PC and trying
    >to keep that in sync is inefficient, clumsy and plain bad procedure.


    Synchronization is the whole point, not the result of faulty premises.
    The whole plan is to allow you to update records in multiple places
    and have those updates apply globally at some point. When those points
    aren't permanently connected, some kind of synchronization is
    *required*.

    Of course, that assumes that you are using your PDA for stuff like
    address books with atomic entries which might be out of step from one
    place to another. For things like movies, pictures and music, files
    are atomic and don't really fit around the database paradigm that
    palm's hotsync uses and so this isn't as useful (though it arguable
    could be for some people). For this, I use variously:

    1)External card reader (The fastest way)
    2)Cardreader (turns your Palm into a card reader funnily enough) my TX
    is USB 1.0 so convenient but slow
    3)SMBMate (access files on your PC from your Palm) I use WiFi so
    reasonably convenient but fairly slow (also free).
    4)Blazer Browser (for downloading files occasionally). (Now avoid this
    since software installed this way doesn't get restored after a
    hard-reset/sync).

    My profile is probably similar to yours so I'll only hotsync maybe
    every month or two. But to diss on hotsync just shows an ignorance of
    where a PDA can really be functional.

    Rich



    --
    If you squeeze my lizard
    I'll put my snake on you
    I'm a romantic adventure
    And I'm a reptile too

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