The answers to these questions will help in the future development of
SmartBackup. I've already seen firsthand how horribly slow UDF.IFS can
be to write data to CD-RW and I don't think DVD-RW will be any faster.
The ability to "master and record" DVDs in the same way as mkisofs and
cdrecord are used to make CD-R discs will be a benefit. And as I do not
myself have a DVD recorder, I'll be anxiously awaiting news from anyone
who's used them with mkisofs and cdrecord (or some other utilies).

Don Eitner
Hobby eComStation & OS/2 software developer
http://freiheit.syntheticdimension.n...ation-apps.php


Ilya Zakharevich wrote in
news:bqm081$2hob$1@agate.berkeley.edu:

> Finally, the price of DVD-burners dropped to $100; so I'm looking at
> possibility to use one (for backup etc). Currently I use CD-burner
> with cdrecord (millions of thanks to people who made this possible!).
>
> Can I continue doing the same with a DVD-burner? Just use mkisofs to
> create an image with CDFS on it, and use cdrecord to put it on the
> blank? (I do not care about presence of absense of UDF filesystem.)
>
> [I see some *discussion* ;-) of this question on google, but I did
> not see any *answer* like: ``yes, I write DVD-R/+R via "vanilla"
> cdrecord''...]
>
> [Since I'm using Warp3, there is no restriction of 2G data passed
> through a pipe (even with "older" applications), so my usual setup
> with piping the data mkisofs => cdrecrod should be fine as far as
> cdrecord can burn the stuff.]
>
> I'm confused by the fact that there is a separate build of cdrecord
> for DVDROM creation (the build which would not run ;-). Should not
> cdrecord just use the same SCSI commands to write the stuff?
>
> Thanks,
> Ilya
>



--
Don "Freiheit" Eitner
Hobby eComStation & OS/2 developer
http://freiheit.syntheticdimension.net

RSJ's CD-Writer SW can handle already many DVD drives.
I found a combination of RSJ and cdrecord is "unbeatable".
Meaning, if one can't handle a specific task, the other can for sure.
With this combo I can burn *everything*, including (Super-)Video CDs
amd DVDs.

Greetings
Morenga

>Finally, the price of DVD-burners dropped to $100; so I'm looking at
>possibility to use one (for backup etc). Currently I use CD-burner
>with cdrecord (millions of thanks to people who made this possible!).
>
>Can I continue doing the same with a DVD-burner? Just use mkisofs to
>create an image with CDFS on it, and use cdrecord to put it on the blank?
>(I do not care about presence of absense of UDF filesystem.)
>
>[I see some *discussion* ;-) of this question on google, but I did not
>see any *answer* like: ``yes, I write DVD-R/+R via "vanilla"
>cdrecord''...]
>
>[Since I'm using Warp3, there is no restriction of 2G data passed
>through a pipe (even with "older" applications), so my usual setup
>with piping the data mkisofs => cdrecrod should be fine as far as
>cdrecord can burn the stuff.]
>
>I'm confused by the fact that there is a separate build of cdrecord
>for DVDROM creation (the build which would not run ;-). Should not
>cdrecord just use the same SCSI commands to write the stuff?
>
>Thanks,
>Ilya

Hi Don

I hate to disagree with you regarding UDF:-

Don Eitner wrote:
> The answers to these questions will help in the future development of
> SmartBackup. I've already seen firsthand how horribly slow UDF.IFS can
> be to write data to CD-RW and I don't think DVD-RW will be any faster.
>

- but, in all fairnes to UDF, I have to :-)

Your UDF statement may be accurate for some people - I certainly had
problems with udf212, os2cdrom.dmd build 10.122 and a cdrw - but it is
far from the full truth.

UDF formatted DVD-RAM discs used in an LG GSA-4040B DVD writer are
fairly quick following the recent IBM IDE update containing os2cdrom.dmd
build 10.127. Here are some examples:-

Before ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
formatted DVD-RAM:-

Backup Statistics
-----------------
Bytes Done: 758,801,839
Files Done: 12,947
Files Skipped: 3
Errors: 0
Time Taken: 00:43:04
Total Time: 00:43:10

Verdict: Slow but acceptable.


After ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
formatted DVD-RAM:-

Backup Statistics
-----------------
Bytes Done: 759,697,046
Files Done: 12,963
Files Skipped: 0
Errors: 0
Time Taken: 00:10:19
Total Time: 00:10:27


The same, but slightly larger, backup that now takes 33 minutes less.

Verdict: Very acceptable.

For some of us UDF formatted DVD-RAM is the way to go :-)

Some posts in the os2.bugs newsgroup suggest that this ide update makes
udf (more) useable with cdrw as well.

You may want to investigate UDF as an option in your SmartBackup app -
especially if you could utilise the necessary APIs to make larger than
2Gb files possible as no other backup software seems to be able to.

I would do a comparison with RSJ and DVD+RW media using the above backup
but PC-BaX does not seem to work with RSJ attached media.

I have downloaded a copy of BackAgain/2000 for evaluation so have used
that for this comparison. This is the same backup as above but I have
deleted some files in the meantime so it is a little smaller in size.
Lifted from the BackAgain logfile:-

;-----------------------------------------------------------------------
;
28-DEC-03 21:39:04 [id=8000] Backup for set 'BackUpG' started.
28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8003] Total active time for operation : 7:55.
28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8004] Total idle time for operation : 0:20.
28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8005] Total elapsed time for operation : 8:15.
28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8007] Processed 719.7 MB in 13837 files.
28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8006] Average throughput : 90.9 MB/min.
28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8401] Backup completed normally.

Seems faster until you realise that you still need to Finalise the disc
which takes a further 5 minutes which, in fact makes RSJ and DVD+RW
slower for backup purposes than UDF formatted DVD-RAM.

So, while I am aware that UDF may not be a practical option for some
people it certainly has become the option here.

Hope the above is of some interest/use.

Regards

Pete

That is an encouraging speed increase, especially for an RW (or RAM)
disk. I can surely add UDF support in SmartBackup, but unless Rexx
itself is able to cross the 2GB per file line, there's nothing I can do
for that. I don't do C/C++, Pascal, etc. I just do Rexx (and am
learning Perl now that I've found PRIMA which is a graphical user
interface toolkit for Perl on OS/2, Windows and Linux).

Thank you for the update,

Don

> Before ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
> formatted DVD-RAM:-
>
> Backup Statistics
> -----------------
> Bytes Done: 758,801,839
> Files Done: 12,947
> Files Skipped: 3
> Errors: 0
> Time Taken: 00:43:04
> Total Time: 00:43:10
>
> Verdict: Slow but acceptable.
>
>
> After ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
> formatted DVD-RAM:-
>
> Backup Statistics
> -----------------
> Bytes Done: 759,697,046
> Files Done: 12,963
> Files Skipped: 0
> Errors: 0
> Time Taken: 00:10:19
> Total Time: 00:10:27
>
>
> The same, but slightly larger, backup that now takes 33 minutes less.
>
> Verdict: Very acceptable.
>
> For some of us UDF formatted DVD-RAM is the way to go :-)
>
> Some posts in the os2.bugs newsgroup suggest that this ide update
> makes udf (more) useable with cdrw as well.



--
Don "Freiheit" Eitner
Hobby eComStation & OS/2 developer
http://freiheit.syntheticdimension.net

Pete, do you mean to say that with the new UDF FS one could burn DVD's w/o
3rd party SW? Please clarify.

Greetings & happy new year
Morenga

>Hi Don
>
>I hate to disagree with you regarding UDF:-
>
>Don Eitner wrote:
>> The answers to these questions will help in the future development of
>> SmartBackup. I've already seen firsthand how horribly slow UDF.IFS can
>> be to write data to CD-RW and I don't think DVD-RW will be any faster.
>>
>
>- but, in all fairnes to UDF, I have to :-)
>
>Your UDF statement may be accurate for some people - I certainly had
>problems with udf212, os2cdrom.dmd build 10.122 and a cdrw - but it is
>far from the full truth.
>
>UDF formatted DVD-RAM discs used in an LG GSA-4040B DVD writer are
>fairly quick following the recent IBM IDE update containing os2cdrom.dmd
>build 10.127. Here are some examples:-
>
>Before ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
>formatted DVD-RAM:-
>
>Backup Statistics
>-----------------
>Bytes Done: 758,801,839
>Files Done: 12,947
>Files Skipped: 3
>Errors: 0
>Time Taken: 00:43:04
>Total Time: 00:43:10
>
>Verdict: Slow but acceptable.
>
>
>After ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
>formatted DVD-RAM:-
>
>Backup Statistics
>-----------------
>Bytes Done: 759,697,046
>Files Done: 12,963
>Files Skipped: 0
>Errors: 0
>Time Taken: 00:10:19
>Total Time: 00:10:27
>
>
>The same, but slightly larger, backup that now takes 33 minutes less.
>
>Verdict: Very acceptable.
>
>For some of us UDF formatted DVD-RAM is the way to go :-)
>
>Some posts in the os2.bugs newsgroup suggest that this ide update makes
>udf (more) useable with cdrw as well.
>
>You may want to investigate UDF as an option in your SmartBackup app -
>especially if you could utilise the necessary APIs to make larger than
>2Gb files possible as no other backup software seems to be able to.
>
>I would do a comparison with RSJ and DVD+RW media using the above backup
>but PC-BaX does not seem to work with RSJ attached media.
>
>I have downloaded a copy of BackAgain/2000 for evaluation so have used
>that for this comparison. This is the same backup as above but I have
>deleted some files in the meantime so it is a little smaller in size.
>Lifted from the BackAgain logfile:-
>
>;-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>;
>28-DEC-03 21:39:04 [id=8000] Backup for set 'BackUpG' started.
>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8003] Total active time for operation : 7:55.
>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8004] Total idle time for operation : 0:20.
>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8005] Total elapsed time for operation : 8:15.
>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8007] Processed 719.7 MB in 13837 files.
>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8006] Average throughput : 90.9 MB/min.
>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8401] Backup completed normally.
>
>Seems faster until you realise that you still need to Finalise the disc
>which takes a further 5 minutes which, in fact makes RSJ and DVD+RW
>slower for backup purposes than UDF formatted DVD-RAM.
>
>So, while I am aware that UDF may not be a practical option for some
>people it certainly has become the option here.
>
>Hope the above is of some interest/use.
>
>Regards
>
>Pete
>

Hi

Errr... what clarification are you after exactly?

My post was about writing a backup to a UDF formatted DVD-RAM disc -
insert blank dvd-ram disc in dvd-ram capable writer, RMB dvd writer
object and select format, then perform backup as per previous post.

So, Yes is the answer to your question if you are asking about data
files and using a dvd-ram disc as a very large, fast(ish) removable
floppy-like (no partitions) disc.

Please do not confuse it with creating or copying dvd video disc which
may be possible with the dvd version of cdrecord - I have not
experimented with that at all yet as the os/2 version seems to be a
little behind other os's :-(

Does that help?

Pete


Morenga wrote:
> Pete, do you mean to say that with the new UDF FS one could burn DVD's w/o
> 3rd party SW? Please clarify.
>
> Greetings & happy new year
> Morenga
>
>
>>Hi Don
>>
>>I hate to disagree with you regarding UDF:-
>>
>>Don Eitner wrote:
>>
>>>The answers to these questions will help in the future development of
>>>SmartBackup. I've already seen firsthand how horribly slow UDF.IFS can
>>>be to write data to CD-RW and I don't think DVD-RW will be any faster.
>>>
>>
>>- but, in all fairnes to UDF, I have to :-)
>>
>>Your UDF statement may be accurate for some people - I certainly had
>>problems with udf212, os2cdrom.dmd build 10.122 and a cdrw - but it is
>>far from the full truth.
>>
>>UDF formatted DVD-RAM discs used in an LG GSA-4040B DVD writer are
>>fairly quick following the recent IBM IDE update containing os2cdrom.dmd
>>build 10.127. Here are some examples:-
>>
>>Before ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
>>formatted DVD-RAM:-
>>
>>Backup Statistics
>>-----------------
>>Bytes Done: 758,801,839
>>Files Done: 12,947
>>Files Skipped: 3
>>Errors: 0
>>Time Taken: 00:43:04
>>Total Time: 00:43:10
>>
>>Verdict: Slow but acceptable.
>>
>>
>>After ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
>>formatted DVD-RAM:-
>>
>>Backup Statistics
>>-----------------
>>Bytes Done: 759,697,046
>>Files Done: 12,963
>>Files Skipped: 0
>>Errors: 0
>>Time Taken: 00:10:19
>>Total Time: 00:10:27
>>
>>
>>The same, but slightly larger, backup that now takes 33 minutes less.
>>
>>Verdict: Very acceptable.
>>
>>For some of us UDF formatted DVD-RAM is the way to go :-)
>>
>>Some posts in the os2.bugs newsgroup suggest that this ide update makes
>>udf (more) useable with cdrw as well.
>>
>>You may want to investigate UDF as an option in your SmartBackup app -
>>especially if you could utilise the necessary APIs to make larger than
>>2Gb files possible as no other backup software seems to be able to.
>>
>>I would do a comparison with RSJ and DVD+RW media using the above backup
>>but PC-BaX does not seem to work with RSJ attached media.
>>
>>I have downloaded a copy of BackAgain/2000 for evaluation so have used
>>that for this comparison. This is the same backup as above but I have
>>deleted some files in the meantime so it is a little smaller in size.
>>Lifted from the BackAgain logfile:-
>>
>>;-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>;
>>28-DEC-03 21:39:04 [id=8000] Backup for set 'BackUpG' started.
>>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8003] Total active time for operation : 7:55.
>>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8004] Total idle time for operation : 0:20.
>>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8005] Total elapsed time for operation : 8:15.
>>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8007] Processed 719.7 MB in 13837 files.
>>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8006] Average throughput : 90.9 MB/min.
>>28-DEC-03 21:47:20 [id=8401] Backup completed normally.
>>
>>Seems faster until you realise that you still need to Finalise the disc
>>which takes a further 5 minutes which, in fact makes RSJ and DVD+RW
>>slower for backup purposes than UDF formatted DVD-RAM.
>>
>>So, while I am aware that UDF may not be a practical option for some
>>people it certainly has become the option here.
>>
>>Hope the above is of some interest/use.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Pete
>>
>
>
>
>

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:35:43 +0000, Peter Brown wrote:

>Hi
>
>Errr... what clarification are you after exactly?
>
>My post was about writing a backup to a UDF formatted DVD-RAM disc -
>insert blank dvd-ram disc in dvd-ram capable writer, RMB dvd writer
>object and select format, then perform backup as per previous post.
>
>So, Yes is the answer to your question if you are asking about data
>files and using a dvd-ram disc as a very large, fast(ish) removable
>floppy-like (no partitions) disc.
>
>Please do not confuse it with creating or copying dvd video disc which
>may be possible with the dvd version of cdrecord - I have not
>experimented with that at all yet as the os/2 version seems to be a
>little behind other os's :-(
>
>Does that help?
>
>Pete

OK Pete, just to clarify yet again.
You can use the standard OS/2 UDF to write DVD *data* CD's
w/o any other 3rd party SW, right ?!

And by the way, RSJ does support copy of DVD's but not
encoding or decodig them (I use a Windoze tool via Odin for that).

Greetings
Morenga

JFS >2GB uses a totally separate API from <2GB file I/O.
DFS and some other tools can use it w/o problems.
You should check with their developers how they did it.

Greetings
Morenga

>That is an encouraging speed increase, especially for an RW (or RAM)
>disk. I can surely add UDF support in SmartBackup, but unless Rexx
>itself is able to cross the 2GB per file line, there's nothing I can do
>for that. I don't do C/C++, Pascal, etc. I just do Rexx (and am
>learning Perl now that I've found PRIMA which is a graphical user
>interface toolkit for Perl on OS/2, Windows and Linux).
>
>Thank you for the update,
>
>Don
>
>> Before ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
>> formatted DVD-RAM:-
>>
>> Backup Statistics
>> -----------------
>> Bytes Done: 758,801,839
>> Files Done: 12,947
>> Files Skipped: 3
>> Errors: 0
>> Time Taken: 00:43:04
>> Total Time: 00:43:10
>>
>> Verdict: Slow but acceptable.
>>
>>
>> After ide 10.127 update using PC-BaX Demo (V3.20) writing to UDF
>> formatted DVD-RAM:-
>>
>> Backup Statistics
>> -----------------
>> Bytes Done: 759,697,046
>> Files Done: 12,963
>> Files Skipped: 0
>> Errors: 0
>> Time Taken: 00:10:19
>> Total Time: 00:10:27
>>
>>
>> The same, but slightly larger, backup that now takes 33 minutes less.
>>
>> Verdict: Very acceptable.
>>
>> For some of us UDF formatted DVD-RAM is the way to go :-)
>>
>> Some posts in the os2.bugs newsgroup suggest that this ide update
>> makes udf (more) useable with cdrw as well.
>
>
>
>--
>Don "Freiheit" Eitner
>Hobby eComStation & OS/2 developer
>http://freiheit.syntheticdimension.net