Life of CD install disks - OS2

This is a discussion on Life of CD install disks - OS2 ; Bob Martin wrote: > in 228383 20070921 091205 Peter J Seymour wrote: > >>Paul Ratcliffe wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:48:37 +0100, Peter J Seymour >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I'm just doing a bit of thinking ahead. I ...

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Thread: Life of CD install disks

  1. Re: Life of CD install disks

    Bob Martin wrote:
    > in 228383 20070921 091205 Peter J Seymour wrote:
    >
    >>Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:48:37 +0100, Peter J Seymour
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>I'm just doing a bit of thinking ahead. I have various OS/2 and ECS
    >>>>install sets of CDs (and even floppies). Regarding the CDs, one
    >>>>sometimes hears about CDs degrading and becoming unreadable. Has anyone
    >>>>got a view on the likely lifespan of the install CDs? I presume they are
    >>>>'good quality' whatever that may be, but I've no idea on how long they
    >>>>will continue to be useable. The danger scenario is that one day I come
    >>>>to do a re-install and find I can't because of bad disks.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>So extract the .ISO image and keep it on a hard disk somewhere. Then you can
    >>>burn a new CD should you feel the need.

    >>
    >>Seems a straightforward idea. I'll have to look into it.
    >>Thanks
    >>Peter

    >
    >
    > So we use the hard disk to backup our backups of the hard disk? ;-)

    Well yes, very funny. if the risk of a corrupted original is a small
    fraction, then the risk of being hit by a corrupted backup is a small
    fraction of that fraction (if my statistical sense if correct). I
    suppose ideally one avoids recursive backup locations by using different
    hard disks preferably on different machines. [meander] In my mainframe
    days we had nightly, weekly and monthly backups with some generations
    being kept offsite. On top of that we tended to keep multiple versions
    of current working files. Even if the system was completely lost, we
    could still be up and running again in 24 hrs subject to hardware
    availability. It happened perhaps once every ten years or so, but it did
    actually happen
    once in a while.
    Peter

  2. Re: Life of CD install disks

    On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 07:57:09 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:

    >>> So extract the .ISO image and keep it on a hard disk somewhere. Then you can
    >>> burn a new CD should you feel the need.

    >>
    >>Seems a straightforward idea. I'll have to look into it.

    >
    > So we use the hard disk to backup our backups of the hard disk? ;-)


    Not quite. This was only to make a backup of a CD which had no other backup.
    In any case, what is wrong with storing backups on a hard disk?
    I have a pair of disks and use them to back each other up. I do something
    similar between 2 machines as well.

  3. Re: Life of CD install disks

    On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:04:37 UTC, Paul Ratcliffe
    wrote:

    > On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 07:57:09 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:
    >
    > >>> So extract the .ISO image and keep it on a hard disk somewhere. Then you can
    > >>> burn a new CD should you feel the need.
    > >>
    > >>Seems a straightforward idea. I'll have to look into it.

    > >
    > > So we use the hard disk to backup our backups of the hard disk? ;-)

    >
    > Not quite. This was only to make a backup of a CD which had no other backup.
    > In any case, what is wrong with storing backups on a hard disk?
    > I have a pair of disks and use them to back each other up. I do something
    > similar between 2 machines as well.


    But beware the power surge that kills both disks...!
    --
    Bob Eager



  4. Re: Life of CD install disks

    On 22 Sep 2007 10:57:29 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

    >> Not quite. This was only to make a backup of a CD which had no other backup.
    >> In any case, what is wrong with storing backups on a hard disk?
    >> I have a pair of disks and use them to back each other up. I do something
    >> similar between 2 machines as well.

    >
    > But beware the power surge that kills both disks...!


    Well the whole lot is UPSed but I'm not sure how much real protection that
    would give. Yes, it's a worry.
    Is there an easy and cheap answer to backing up half a terrabyte of stuff
    with room for a reaonable amount of future growth?
    I haven't used tape for over 5 years since I gave up on my Colorado T1000, as
    it was just too small to use practically.

  5. Re: Life of CD install disks

    On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:17:27 UTC, Paul Ratcliffe
    wrote:

    > On 22 Sep 2007 10:57:29 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
    >
    > >> Not quite. This was only to make a backup of a CD which had no other backup.
    > >> In any case, what is wrong with storing backups on a hard disk?
    > >> I have a pair of disks and use them to back each other up. I do something
    > >> similar between 2 machines as well.

    > >
    > > But beware the power surge that kills both disks...!

    >
    > Well the whole lot is UPSed but I'm not sure how much real protection that
    > would give. Yes, it's a worry.
    > Is there an easy and cheap answer to backing up half a terrabyte of stuff
    > with room for a reaonable amount of future growth?
    > I haven't used tape for over 5 years since I gave up on my Colorado T1000, as
    > it was just too small to use practically.


    It is a problem. I back up to another machine, on a different floor, on
    a separate UPS.

    Major stuff is also put onto 20G/40G tapes. Immutable segments go onto
    CD, although that is a pain.

    --
    Bob Eager



  6. Re: Life of CD install disks

    Simple very effective solution Bob ..

    Bob Eager wrote:

    > But beware the power surge that kills both disks...!


    Use a mobile drive tray for the backup disk. I've been doing this with Jan's
    DFSEE for a long time now on several boxes. That on top of UPS capability. As
    well, though most won't go this far, the mission critical stuff is in rack
    mount industrial relay rack full transformer cases for lightning surge
    protection on beyond the transformer based APC UPS RM units.

    The details on how to really protect your site and data are below for those who
    want all the messy text.

    At my ham radio site with the big low band phased vertical arrays I take an
    average of at least one direct hit a year there plus LOTS more power line hits.
    The proper surge suppression work is sure there on all the tower lines, as
    well as the interface at the entry points. If you really understand the arena
    of how lightning works you *NEVER* depend on the conventional surge suppressors
    for actual lightning protection, especially where switching type power supplies
    are involved like we see virtually everywhere in the computer and games game
    and so on! The shunt diodes in them do clamp the lightning surge to the green
    wire ground. But because lightning is *NOT* electricity in the conventional
    sense of the word, but is a gigantic strong radio wave, it doesn't travel
    inside the ground wire or any wire.

    It travels on the surface of metal seeking ground. As a radio wave, it has a
    period length that varies during the milliseconds lifetime of the stroke as the
    frequency of the stroke changes. The peak voltage point vs. the peak current
    point are a quarter wave apart on the surface of the metal carrying the stroke.
    That can and often does vary between a 'normal' maximum of about 250 feet per
    quarter wave down to only a six or eight foot minimum length! All during just
    one hit.

    That is the reason that inside a home or building, we often see a TV set or
    whatever blown to bits, but eight or ten feet down the same general wire area
    in the power loom of the site, other electronic goodies are still working!

    More important, for the surge protector failure to keep your switching power
    supply stuff working, the surge protector diodes do clamp the surge to the
    ground. But because the neutral ground on the power line may *NOT* be ground
    at all due to the surface flow and min-max voltage and current areas in the
    whole scenario, the lightning travels the REVERSE direction down to the
    computer stuff plugged into them on the green ground line to your prized boxes
    with your life time worth of work! There, because they are equipped with
    switching power supplies for the most part, what happens is on a 12 volt DC
    output line system, the peak voltage during the strike will actually produce
    the 120 volt over 12 volt ratio reduction on the ground foils of the whole
    board complex in the box of ..

    say .. 400 volts on the ground foils of the 4000 volt spike.

    BLAM .. your whole life is gone bye - bye.

    Without a separate tape .. or drive tray box.

    Physically removed from the grid.

    Enter pig iron old time transformers. The lightning surge, as a radio wave
    issue, can't go through the pig iron induction transfer process for the old
    linear power supply stuff. Nor the really good UPS power supply units that use
    them. Nor an actual pig iron isolation transformer for the whole mission
    critical computer table if that is the way you want to go. And YES, the
    conventional surge protectors DO have use for the still found power line
    voltage surges for things other than lightning which go wrong from time to
    time. And for phone line surges for your modem lines as well.

    Lastly, the final step in total protection for the site is the ring of wire at
    surface level on the ground around the building, together with the short little
    ground mat grid of wires which protrude out along the ground for six or eight
    feet away from the main ring. Since lightning is surface conductor oriented,
    it is really trying to sink itself to the SURFACE of the ground during the
    strike. A regular NEMA ground rod is really relatively useless for this. We
    carry the strike current out to the wire ring around the place, then
    deliberately to the surface at several places to properly sink the surge where
    it is going - no matter what else - is in the way.

    Beyond this. things can and do still go wrong for surges from the power grid
    that may not be lightning caused, but may result from transformer and capacitor
    and circuit breaker issues far away from your prized data. So conventional
    surge suppression gear is still needed.

    And there is one more huge issue which is involved in this as well that few
    people are really thinking about in keeping us running in our electronic age of
    whatever.

    Just as in a nuclear device explosion up in the sky even a thousand miles away
    that generates an EMP pulse at say 30,000,000 volts per meter traveling at the
    speed of light, taking out virtually ALL wire connected computer and electronic
    gear for the thousand mile foot print around it, from the pulse induced
    electrical shock. so does lightning do this near it locally!

    Even in a well designed protected site, the DC voltage spike so produced from
    the bolt that hit your neighbor's house still needs the in-site surge
    protection from convention protection devices .. even with the thought of
    hosting a neat pig iron protection plan for the really mission critical stuff.

    The above is very solid information. If you have very mission critical data
    and aren't operating from an underground bunker with real surface interface
    protection, the above is all very real solid help.

    As well as the ultimate way to instantly be back up from the mobile drive tray
    game. Which if it is really critical, you could do as a fiber connected LAN
    operation, via the OS/2 file mirroring technique at a completely separate site
    location in near real time, I guess.

    Grin ..

    Just trying to help here as an old Narte master broadcast engineer from long
    ago and far away and getting hit dozens of times a year at old WTAW radio in
    Aggieland as their Chief Engineer in the 1960's. Properly protected it's
    actually fun to look out the window at the tower and see the up arching fingers
    on the tower seeking to connect with the clouds for the strike. It does move
    from the ground up to the clouds for the initial hit much of the time.

    Plus as far as I know, the longest recorded strike travel in clear air that
    killed people is about twenty miles. Fully documented on death on a golf
    course up in Colorado from a recorded bolt in a thunderstorm. With not a cloud
    in the sky anywhere near the golf course. So I wouldn't count on a mobile
    drive tray .. or a USB stick surviving either if not put in a safe place as
    well under the worst of time. Wince.


    --


    --> Sleep well; OS2's still awake!

    Mike Luther

  7. Re: Life of CD install disks

    On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:10:11 UTC, Mike Luther
    wrote:

    > Simple very effective solution Bob ..
    >
    > Bob Eager wrote:
    >
    > > But beware the power surge that kills both disks...!

    >
    > Use a mobile drive tray for the backup disk.


    Assuming this doesn't happen DURING the backup. And I've known that
    happen. Everything dead.

    (lots of useful stuff snipped)

    Some of this works a bit differently in the UK, due to different
    earthing (grounding) arrangements. And we use a proper voltage
    everywhere! :-)
    --
    Bob Eager



  8. Re: Life of CD install disks

    in 228414 20070922 100437 Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
    >On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 07:57:09 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:
    >
    >>>> So extract the .ISO image and keep it on a hard disk somewhere. Then you can
    >>>> burn a new CD should you feel the need.
    >>>
    >>>Seems a straightforward idea. I'll have to look into it.

    >>
    >> So we use the hard disk to backup our backups of the hard disk? ;-)

    >
    >Not quite. This was only to make a backup of a CD which had no other backup.
    >In any case, what is wrong with storing backups on a hard disk?
    >I have a pair of disks and use them to back each other up. I do something
    >similar between 2 machines as well.


    It was only a tongue-in-cheek remark, but it does have a serious point.
    I have two desktops, each with two hard disks, and the really valuable stuff
    on each HD is backed up (as a .iso) to the other 3 disks. The offsite backups
    are on DVD, but I haven't had much luck with reliability of these. It seems
    many DVDs can only be read on the drive that wrote them, even though I
    stick to one manufacturer (LiteOn).

  9. Re: Life of CD install disks

    Bob Martin wrote:
    > in 228414 20070922 100437 Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
    >

    ....
    > It was only a tongue-in-cheek remark, but it does have a serious point.
    > I have two desktops, each with two hard disks, and the really valuable stuff
    > on each HD is backed up (as a .iso) to the other 3 disks. The offsite backups
    > are on DVD, but I haven't had much luck with reliability of these. It seems
    > many DVDs can only be read on the drive that wrote them, even though I
    > stick to one manufacturer (LiteOn).

    I don't have much experience of DVD media, but I have found a similar
    problem with CDs. However, I discovered that recording on "slow" CDR
    media, for instance 20x on a 48x drive seemed to overcome the problem of
    not being able to read the recorded media on other drives. Don't know
    though whether the same will apply to DVD media.
    Peter

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