Installing warp 3 from DRDOS? - OS2

This is a discussion on Installing warp 3 from DRDOS? - OS2 ; DRDOS runs the cd/dvd; the warp 3 floppy install dont. can I patch in the atapicd.sys into the floppy config.sys? Or is there some other way to boot from drdos and then go to the warp 3 cd to install ...

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  1. Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    DRDOS runs the cd/dvd; the warp 3 floppy install dont.
    can I patch in the atapicd.sys into the floppy config.sys?

    Or is there some other way to boot from drdos and then go to the warp
    3 cd to install it?

    What's the advantage of warp 4 and ecomstation?


  2. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Day Brown wrote:
    > DRDOS runs the cd/dvd; the warp 3 floppy install dont.
    > can I patch in the atapicd.sys into the floppy config.sys?


    OS/2 uses completely different type of .sys files, you can't use a .sys
    file from DOS for base OS/2 driver.


    > Or is there some other way to boot from drdos and then go to the warp
    > 3 cd to install it?


    Unfortunately, you have to boot OS/2 to install OS/2. There was never a
    way to install OS/2 from DOS, as OS/2 was never Windows-like DOS-add-on.

    > What's the advantage of warp 4 and ecomstation?


    Warp 4 is enhanced Warp 3, and eComStation is enhanced Warp 4(or Warp
    4.5)... Basically, the newer OS/2 version you get, the less-older
    hardware you need to run it. Latest eComStation should run on latest (or
    nearly latest) hardware.


    --
    Cheers,
    Martin

    UNDERSCOREmmiATcentrumDOTcz to email me

  3. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In article <1177963883.927316.35580@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.c om>,
    Day Brown wrote:
    >
    >Or is there some other way to boot from drdos and then go to the warp
    >3 cd to install it?


    I'm assuming that you've tried to boot from the Warp 3 installation
    diskettes and it can't see the CD-ROM drive?

    You have three options. First, if there is an OS/2 driver for the CDROM
    drive, you can copy it onto the Warp 3 install diskettes and add a BASEDEV
    statement for it to the CONFIG.SYS on the diskettes. For example, Backpack
    parallel port CDROM drives are supported this way.

    Your second option is to copy (most of) the contents of the CD to the hard
    drive from DOS, then boot from the Warp 3 installation diskettes and do the
    install from the hard drive. The diskettes will need a slight change to tell
    the install program where to look for the files.

    Your third (and most complex) option is to build a network enabled install
    diskette set and install the machine from a Warp 3 CDROM (or hard disk copy
    of the CDROM) installed on an OS/2 machine acting as a file server. (It
    doesn't have to have OS/2 Warp Server installed.)

    Please go into more detail about the system and why you can't install the
    usual way, and we can provide details on the best way for you to proceed.

    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Advertisement on the box for Microsoft Windows 2.11 for 286

  4. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Ok, first detail is that I got a comp sci minor in 1971, and have been
    fooling with computers longer than most hackers have been alive. And
    in all that time, there are certian conventions about file systems and
    setups. Having setup trouble is nothing new.

    And, there has been progress. What would have made sense is for the
    whole damn CD to be copied onto the Hard drive. Like, I wasnt
    surprised that it didnt get the video right, that happens a lot with
    other OSes. But I was surprised to find that after the install, it
    didnt know how to run the CD rom to access the other video drivers.
    This time, it aint like its a new CD. I found an old case with a 16x
    Hitachi.

    Maybe its a bug on the warp 3 install cd that it didnt install the cd
    driver on the ide. But from the postings above I see that patching it
    in will be tricky, if not impossible. that kind of thing is duck soup
    with either Freedos or DRDOS. It seems to come in the kernel of
    linux.

    Then,. there's the video. With both Linux and dos, there's ways of
    adjusting the drivers to accomodate the horizontal & vertical scan
    rates, and if you screw it up, you dont havta reboot to get back to
    the standard 640x480. Both offer the user a way to test the proposed
    resolution to make sure it works. I dont see that with warp 4. I have
    RTFM; it aint in there.

    I keep setting the cd driver with warp 4 install floppy 2, and it
    keeps forgetting, but mite, or mite not, run the cd drive anyway. But
    if it does find a video driver, then the screen just turns black. I'll
    go online to see if I can find an os2 driver for the ATI RAGE XL AGP
    video card. It has worked really well for Linux and dos. I dont, and
    never have, used windows. As soon as there was a Microsoft
    alternative, COMPAQ DOS 3.31, I switched, and then switched again to
    DR-DOS 5, then 6.0 (which has the best dos manual by far).

    And now that so much hardware is so different from what the IBM
    engineers expected, the problem of not being able to step thru the
    driver sequence like you can with Freedos and DR-DOS is really
    limiting your user base. OS/2 otherwise has a lot going for it. The
    easy access to the dos prompt, and the text mode file managers is
    really nice. Drag & drop is so clumsy and sloooooow.

    All I really need the GUI for is the browser and Youtube. I dont use
    the pc as a multimedia entertainment device. I already have a tv set.
    It was, however, for instance, instructive to see the parsing out of
    the mass media 911 video, frame by frame on a website where you can
    stop it, back it up, take another look, and get a better idea of just
    what was really going on.

    I dunno if the os2 community can keep up with the evolution of these
    media formats. But when it comes to the user interface, the fastest
    I've seen is ANSI color scrollbar to select and launch apps. And if
    they are graphic, os2 figures that out immediately, and pulls them up
    faster than Linux can on the same hardware. If I can just get the
    hardware that I have configured right....


  5. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In article <1178004544.631486.76610@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.co m>
    daybrown@hughes.net "Day Brown" writes:

    > Ok, first detail is that I got a comp sci minor in 1971, and
    > have been fooling with computers longer than most hackers have
    > been alive. And in all that time, there are certian conventions
    > about file systems and setups. Having setup trouble is nothing
    > new.
    >
    > [...]


    So the first thing you should be alert for is that you learned
    your computing before many of the devices a modern OS needs to
    drive were invented. It's possible you haven't kept up in the
    ways you hoped.

    You spend much time saying how naturally/easily/etc other OSes
    do this and that. That may be a clue: maybe OS/2 Warp 3 isn't
    your thing, emotionally as well as functionally.

    Finally, Warp 3 is now pretty long in the tooth. If installed
    and running, it tends to keep running. But maybe you _should_
    consider going straight to eCs-1.2 , the latest OS/2 version.

    Otherwise, I'd better hand you back to the debugging crew. :-)
    --
    Andrew Stephenson


  6. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In article <1178004544.631486.76610@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.co m>,
    Day Brown wrote:

    >And, there has been progress. What would have made sense is for the
    >whole damn CD to be copied onto the Hard drive. Like, I wasnt
    >surprised that it didnt get the video right, that happens a lot with
    >other OSes. But I was surprised to find that after the install, it
    >didnt know how to run the CD rom to access the other video drivers.
    >This time, it aint like its a new CD. I found an old case with a 16x
    >Hitachi.


    If you copied the full OS2IMAGE tree to the hard disk from the CDROM before
    beginning the install, the display drivers will be there. If Selective
    Install is trying to access the CDROM for them, that implies "Something
    else" is wrong.

    >Maybe its a bug on the warp 3 install cd that it didnt install the cd
    >driver on the ide. But from the postings above I see that patching it
    >in will be tricky, if not impossible. that kind of thing is duck soup
    >with either Freedos or DRDOS. It seems to come in the kernel of
    >linux.


    If it's a standard ATAPI CDROM, it should be recognised by the boot
    diskettes. If not, select "generic IDE CDROM" (or similar wording) and see
    if it works after a reboot. Failing that, install a recent fixpak for Warp 3
    (Fixpak 38 or above) which will update the hard disk and CDROM drivers.
    Failing all that, unplug the CDROM drive until the install is complete, then
    plug it in and use "Selective Install" to add the drivers for it.
    Real men would just edit CONFIG.SYS and add the statements required... :-)

    Check the drive jumpers, too - I seem to recall that having the drive as a
    "slave" or "cable select" on a cable with no "master" drive would sometimes
    not work under some versions of Os/2.

    >Then,. there's the video. With both Linux and dos, there's ways of
    >adjusting the drivers to accomodate the horizontal & vertical scan
    >rates, and if you screw it up, you dont havta reboot to get back to
    >the standard 640x480. Both offer the user a way to test the proposed
    >resolution to make sure it works. I dont see that with warp 4. I have
    >RTFM; it aint in there.


    No, it ain't in there because it doesn't do it. The original design assumed
    that display adapter and monitor manufacturers would implement DMQS, but
    only IBM bothered for its own adapters and displays. (DMQS allows the
    adapter and monitor to negotiate a set of parameters and modes that they
    both support, and present the result as a list of allowable settings. Thus,
    it's not possible to select a mode that doesn't result in a usable display.)
    For everyone else, you just have to know what you're doing and what you
    want. I never found it to be a problem after I learned to RTFM to determine
    what scan rates were supported by the adapter and monitor and set it right
    the first time, rather than "poking and hoping".

    >I keep setting the cd driver with warp 4 install floppy 2, and it
    >keeps forgetting, but mite, or mite not, run the cd drive anyway. But
    >if it does find a video driver, then the screen just turns black. I'll
    >go online to see if I can find an os2 driver for the ATI RAGE XL AGP
    >video card.


    ATI Rage drivers were always difficult. I found a set (from Compaq, I think)
    which worked with the Rage Pro. Scitech Display Doctor may also work. Try
    this, available from Hobbes:

    /pub/os2/system/drivers/video/ati_rage-sdd2se.exe
    ATI Rage Video Device Driver for OS/2 version 5.25 (2002/07/08).
    SciTech Display Doctor for OS/2 Version 7.0.7 IBM Special Edition.

    >And now that so much hardware is so different from what the IBM
    >engineers expected, the problem of not being able to step thru the
    >driver sequence like you can with Freedos and DR-DOS is really
    >limiting your user base. OS/2 otherwise has a lot going for it. The
    >easy access to the dos prompt, and the text mode file managers is
    >really nice. Drag & drop is so clumsy and sloooooow.


    "Limiting the user base"? What user base?
    Anyway, people who have been in the business as long as you have don't need
    their hand held by being able to step through the drivers. :-)
    When OS/2 starts to boot, you'll see at the top left of the screen a small
    white box and "OS/2". While that is displayed (may only be a second or two),
    press the key sequence Alt-F2. The driver names will be displayed as they
    load. If the boot hangs, the last driver listed is (sometimes) the culprit.
    There are ways to make the boot process pause if required, too.

    >All I really need the GUI for is the browser and Youtube. I dont use
    >the pc as a multimedia entertainment device. I already have a tv set.
    >It was, however, for instance, instructive to see the parsing out of
    >the mass media 911 video, frame by frame on a website where you can
    >stop it, back it up, take another look, and get a better idea of just
    >what was really going on.
    >
    >I dunno if the os2 community can keep up with the evolution of these
    >media formats. But when it comes to the user interface, the fastest
    >I've seen is ANSI color scrollbar to select and launch apps. And if
    >they are graphic, os2 figures that out immediately, and pulls them up
    >faster than Linux can on the same hardware. If I can just get the
    >hardware that I have configured right....


    Sounds like you use and value OS/2 for pretty much the same reasons as I do.
    The one thing I've done differently is to bite the bullet and buy a copy of
    eCS. I have machines running OS/2 2.1, Warp 3, Warp 3 Connect, Warp 4, WSEB
    and eCS 1.1. I've found that the most trouble free path is to use an OS/2
    version that more or less matches the age of the hardware. I've had Warp 3
    Connect running on hardware from 386 to Pentium 1.2 GHz, but you need to
    do quite a few driver updates by the time you get up that far. I don't know
    if the Warp 3 install process could be made to work on a modern machine, by
    the time I got to the 1.2 GHz machine I'd long since changed to just
    unzipping a pre-built image and replacing the device drivers as required.

    And finally: are you trying to install Warp 3 or Warp 4? You refer to
    both...


    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Advertisement on the box for Microsoft Windows 2.11 for 286

  7. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    On 1 May 2007 00:29:04 -0700, Day Brown wrote:
    > Ok, first detail is that I got a comp sci minor in 1971, and have been
    > fooling with computers longer than most hackers have been alive. And
    > in all that time, there are certian conventions about file systems and
    > setups. Having setup trouble is nothing new.
    >
    > And, there has been progress. What would have made sense is for the
    > whole damn CD to be copied onto the Hard drive. Like, I wasnt
    > surprised that it didnt get the video right, that happens a lot with
    > other OSes. But I was surprised to find that after the install, it
    > didnt know how to run the CD rom to access the other video drivers.
    > This time, it aint like its a new CD. I found an old case with a 16x
    > Hitachi.
    >
    > Maybe its a bug on the warp 3 install cd that it didnt install the cd
    > driver on the ide. But from the postings above I see that patching it
    > in will be tricky, if not impossible.


    It may be a bug -- or, more likely, a limitation of age. Keep in mind
    that Warp 3 dates from 1994, back when most computers didn't even HAVE
    CD-ROM drives, and those that did still mostly used proprietary interfaces
    rather than IDE/ATAPI.

    In fact, the earliest version of Warp 3, IIRC, didn't ship with an ATAPI
    CD-ROM driver at all. It was added in either Blue Box or Connect, don't
    recall offhand which. If you updated the installation floppies with the
    driver, then you could start the installer -- but you would have to
    remember to put COPYFROMFLOPPY=1 in CONFIG.SYS on Disk 1, and even then
    the CD-ROM driver might not necessary show up in the graphical selection
    phase.

    Bottom line, if you are installing such an ancient version of OS/2 onto
    hardware less than 10 years old, you're asking for challenges along the
    way.

    (BTW, to install a CD-ROM driver after the fact: boot off the install
    floppies, but hit "F3" to open a command prompt at the first blue screen.
    Then copy IBMIDECD.FLT, OS2CDROM.DMD and CDFS.IFS to the hard drive, and
    add the corresponding entries to CONFIG.SYS there.)

    --
    Alex Taylor
    http://www.cs-club.org/~alex

    Remove hat to reply (reply-to address).

  8. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Sir:

    Day Brown wrote:
    > Ok, first detail is that I got a comp sci minor in 1971, and have been
    > fooling with computers longer than most hackers have been alive. And
    > in all that time, there are certian conventions about file systems and
    > setups. Having setup trouble is nothing new.



    In this you seem to forget that Warp 3 is an ancient operating system
    that requires its own drivers and its own boot procedure. It worked
    perfectly on my machine of early 1995. Find average supported hardware
    that was manufactured in 1994 and install Warp 3 on it. Please don't
    require it to know about file formats and hardware that were invented
    and manufactured after it was published.

    IF you wish to hack around with OS/2 on newer hardware, purchase newer
    versions of it. I dare you to attempt to install any MS Windows shell
    or operating system to the end of a 200 GiB hard drive to a logical
    partition. They still won't. The only reason I point this out, is
    every operating system has its peculiarities. Hackers are supposed to
    be able to adapt. IF you are here to flame OS/2, you are in the wrong
    newsgroup; try . IF you need help installing a
    recent version on recent hardware, then here you need to ask.

    PS. Many of us worked on hardware or software before you got your comp
    sci minor. I've even seen a working IBM SAGE as part of SAGE air
    defense (look it up). In fact, the same one which after decommissioning
    in 1983, you can see the control room at the Smithsonian, Washington, DC
    and the remainder at the Air Museum, Wright-Paterson AFB, OH. (Test:
    now tell me where I saw it working.)
    --
    Bill
    Thanks a Million!

  9. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Well, if you all want to run a private club, you're certainly free to
    do that.
    But if you want more *users* so that more development continues to
    keep up with the hardware, then you havta do things more like they
    expect from their experience with installing other operating systems.

    Many of the recent Linux distros default to copying the entire CD to
    the hard drive and then run the rest of the install from there.
    Likewise, you can install a newer version of freedos or drdos from
    downloaded archives, and *never* get told to put an install CD in the
    drive like windoze says, much less havta punch in that damned
    registration number.

    I grant that all these non-windoze users are but a niche market, but
    globally, that still turns out to be milions of users who'd take a
    look at OS/2 if there was an install system as convenient as they were
    used to.

    OS/2 has a lot going for it. The tighter code brings up graphic apps
    faster than the other gui interfaces I've seen. You dont need the
    latest hot iron for a convenient desktop. But you do need a smoother
    install system if you want newbies to experience the advantages of OS/
    2.

    In surfing for video drivers, I found them all right, but they were
    embedded in corporate websites. Were I to look for dos drivers, I'd
    find *lots* of websites put up by dos users with file lists of drivers
    and other apps they think other users mite like. Maybe you all do have
    user supported websites, but if so, google is not that well acquainted
    with them.

    Then too, there's the driver base itself. Nobody seems to know about
    RAR. And then, they put the docs in .pdf; hello? is anybody actually
    going to print it out? is there a new enough acrobat driver to read
    it? what the hell was wrong with file_id.diz or a plain ascii
    readme.txt that you could look at from virtually another operating
    system?

    I'm not ragging on the OS/2 operating system, I'm saying that the
    install software is not up to speed if you want to increase the
    numbers of OS/2 users. It aint rocket science. The tips listed above
    could all be put in a dos batch program to copy the entire warp CD
    sets onto a partition. I saw a 20 gig IDE for 15$ a few days ago, and
    may order a few. It wouldnt be a biggie to put in a 2 gig fat 16 dos
    partition, copy the warp CDs to that, and then use PART.EXE or
    whatever to put fat 32 or NTFS


  10. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In article <1178048979.636352.285610@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups. com>
    daybrown@hughes.net "Day Brown" writes:

    > OS/2 has a lot going for it. The tighter code brings up graphic apps
    > faster than the other gui interfaces I've seen. You dont need the
    > latest hot iron for a convenient desktop. But you do need a smoother
    > install system if you want newbies to experience the advantages of OS/
    > 2.


    Day, that paragraph is answered by (a) the Warp version you are
    trying to install is bl**dy ancient (as you have been told more
    than once) and (b) the newest version of OS/2 is eCS-1.2 (about
    to be upgraded to eCS-2.0) and that _does_ understand the kinds
    of industry advances you've been [controls self] complaining of
    in a way that makes some of us wonder where your interest lies.

    You should know (if you don't already) that a singularly sick &
    sad troll hangs out here like a bad smell, having no home to go
    to, and he likes to post the sort of loaded queries you posted,
    which shortens our patience. So if you have an actual question
    then please ask it and we may be able to help. Don't expect us
    to enthuse over your criticisms of OS/2 vs other OSes. We know
    Warp 3, weaknesses and strengths. Life's too short; most of us
    would rather watch paint dry than reheat boring old non-issues.
    --
    Andrew Stephenson


  11. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In article <1178048979.636352.285610@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups. com>,
    Day Brown wrote:
    >
    >I'm not ragging on the OS/2 operating system, I'm saying that the
    >install software is not up to speed if you want to increase the
    >numbers of OS/2 users.


    The team working on eCS have/are putting a lot of effort into the install
    process.

    As for us being a little prickly here... if you do some reading back in
    these groups with Google, you'll see we get more than our share of trolls.
    The average age of the participants tends to be higher too, so when someone
    new pops up with a provocative style we tend to be less interested in debate
    than in saying "Life's too short for this sh*t." We just want to run OS/2.

    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Advertisement on the box for Microsoft Windows 2.11 for 286

  12. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    William L. Hartzell wrote:

    > PS. *Many of us worked on hardware or software before you got your comp
    > sci minor. *I've even seen a working IBM SAGE as part of SAGE air
    > defense (look it up). *In fact, the same one which after decommissioning
    > in 1983, you can see the control room at the Smithsonian, Washington, DC
    > and the remainder at the Air Museum, Wright-Paterson AFB, OH. *(Test:
    > now tell me where I saw it working.)


    Bill, remember the old saying: first liar doesn't stand a chance! . My
    memories of SAGE are of wondering where they ever found that many 12AU7
    twin triodes and mentally adding up the filament currents. And we think we
    have heat problems with modern laptops? Other than that, I was unimpressed
    because I was working on rocket propulsion simulations using analog
    computers and knew that those new-fangled digital computers would never be
    able to handle 20khz vibration analysis.

    The converse of your analogy is to have modern computer hardware try to
    recover data stored on media common more than a decade ago. The story of
    the Apollo recording of Armstrong's words as he set foot on the moon are
    fairly fresh - the NASA tape, when found, was only playable on exactly ONE
    device - which is currently on display as a museum piece. Or even closer
    to home, try and make an RLL encoded drive work in today's hardware.

    Warp 3 would install on an Intel 386 machine with VGA video - try that with
    Warp 4 or Win-anything. Backward compatibility is a nice goal, but there
    are limits and foresight is even weaker than hindsight, Remember that OS/2
    2.1 needed add-on drivers to handle IDE drives when first released.

    --
    Will Honea

  13. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Sir:

    Will Honea wrote:
    > William L. Hartzell wrote:
    >
    >> PS. Many of us worked on hardware or software before you got your comp
    >> sci minor. I've even seen a working IBM SAGE as part of SAGE air
    >> defense (look it up). In fact, the same one which after decommissioning
    >> in 1983, you can see the control room at the Smithsonian, Washington, DC
    >> and the remainder at the Air Museum, Wright-Paterson AFB, OH. (Test:
    >> now tell me where I saw it working.)

    >
    > Bill, remember the old saying: first liar doesn't stand a chance! . My
    > memories of SAGE are of wondering where they ever found that many 12AU7
    > twin triodes and mentally adding up the filament currents. And we think we
    > have heat problems with modern laptops? Other than that, I was unimpressed
    > because I was working on rocket propulsion simulations using analog
    > computers and knew that those new-fangled digital computers would never be
    > able to handle 20khz vibration analysis.
    >
    > The converse of your analogy is to have modern computer hardware try to
    > recover data stored on media common more than a decade ago. The story of
    > the Apollo recording of Armstrong's words as he set foot on the moon are
    > fairly fresh - the NASA tape, when found, was only playable on exactly ONE
    > device - which is currently on display as a museum piece. Or even closer
    > to home, try and make an RLL encoded drive work in today's hardware.
    >
    > Warp 3 would install on an Intel 386 machine with VGA video - try that with
    > Warp 4 or Win-anything. Backward compatibility is a nice goal, but there
    > are limits and foresight is even weaker than hindsight, Remember that OS/2
    > 2.1 needed add-on drivers to handle IDE drives when first released.
    >


    12au7 was a miniature tube. I used a bunch of them in equipment made
    after WW2, like radios and radars while I was in the US Air Force at my
    first air base (station), which had a lot of late 50's/early 60's
    aircraft. By 1962 the Air Force was replacing everything with
    transistors. The Arc34 radio with miniature tubes (RT-263) weighed
    about 28 lbs. The transistorized version (RT-350)weighed about sixty.
    I first saw the transistorized version in the T-38, which arrived on
    base in mid 1967 (hot off the production line).

    Warp 3 would install on a 386, but who in their right mind would do so?
    The real advantage that it had was gone a few weeks after it was
    released, when memory became more plentiful, due in part 'cause of the
    Asian companies agreeing to pay royalties.

    --
    Bill
    Thanks a Million!

  14. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Here in comp.os.os2.misc,
    Day Brown spake unto us, saying:

    >Well, if you all want to run a private club, you're certainly free
    >to do that.


    Since OS/2 is a closed-source OS from IBM that is no longer in active
    production, the options of the community at large are somewhat limited
    in terms our ability to change basic system behaviors, at least for
    those prepackaged versions of OS/2 that IBM released in the past.

    Experienced users can attempt to provide support, but in all honesty
    the installation of a 13-year-old operating system on modern hardware
    is almost always going to be problematic.

    >But if you want more *users* so that more development continues to
    >keep up with the hardware, then you havta do things more like they
    >expect from their experience with installing other operating systems.


    OS/2 is not a DOS, is not a Windows variant, and is not a UNIX clone.

    Many of the assumptions that are made in those environments will simply
    not apply to OS/2. It's a different beast, and while it has command
    processor and API similarities to Windows and DOS, its core structure
    is not at all like those other platforms.

    OS/2 behaves the way IBM designed it to behave, and while in some cases
    its behavior might not seem to make sense compared to the way other x86
    OSes operate, the fact remains that OS/2 is an IBM product and was made
    according to their design and specifications.

    If you don't accept that right away, you're probably dooming yourself
    to experiencing a certain amount of frustration with OS/2. :-(

    OS/2 is a very good OS if you use it on its own terms, but don't expect
    it to be the same as platforms which have had a decade more development
    time (and a lot more development resources devoted to them).

    It does try to address modern issues in many places, especially in its
    later eComStation incarnations, but some of its approaches are simply
    dated because the base OS itself is dated. Especially OS/2 Warp 3.

    >Many of the recent Linux distros default to copying the entire CD to
    >the hard drive and then run the rest of the install from there.


    Yes, but those are OSes which are (a) open source and (b) which have
    had tons of development resources thrown at them in the recent past,
    so a more sophisticated approach to installation is to be expected.

    OS/2 has not had that luxury. The last shrinkwrapped release of the
    client that I'm aware of from IBM was OS/2 Warp 4 in 1996, which is
    over ten years ago now. A decade is a long time in the PC world.

    >Likewise, you can install a newer version of freedos or drdos from
    >downloaded archives, and *never* get told to put an install CD in the
    >drive like windoze says, much less havta punch in that damned
    >registration number.


    DOS is a simple program loader. It doesn't take much to install it
    because there isn't much there to install. :-)

    >I grant that all these non-windoze users are but a niche market, but
    >globally, that still turns out to be milions of users who'd take a
    >look at OS/2 if there was an install system as convenient as they were
    >used to.


    That's one of the main advantages that eComStation provides. Even the
    older 1.1 version I've installed here is a graphical installation that
    is roughly similar in basic nature to what Mandrake Linux 7 and 8 were
    using a few years ago. It's light years ahead of Warp 3 or Warp 4.

    >OS/2 has a lot going for it. The tighter code brings up graphic apps
    >faster than the other gui interfaces I've seen. You dont need the
    >latest hot iron for a convenient desktop. But you do need a smoother
    >install system if you want newbies to experience the advantages of
    >OS/2.


    No kidding. That's why eCS exists in the first place, really -- to
    make it easier to install OS/2 on modern hardware, and also to make
    it far easier for new users to obtain some of the convenient third-
    party utilities, drivers, and applications.

    >In surfing for video drivers, I found them all right, but they were
    >embedded in corporate websites. Were I to look for dos drivers, I'd
    >find *lots* of websites put up by dos users with file lists of drivers
    >and other apps they think other users mite like. Maybe you all do have
    >user supported websites, but if so, google is not that well acquainted
    >with them.


    Most eCS folks use Scitech's SNAP drivers (or other drivers) which come
    bundled with the OS. No searching required. It's all on the CD-ROM.

    You're trying to use a combination of a very much outdated version of
    the OS along with a rather dated approach to device driver location and
    installation. It's hard work, which is why most OS/2 users don't do it
    that way anymore. :-)

    >I'm not ragging on the OS/2 operating system, I'm saying that the
    >install software is not up to speed if you want to increase the
    >numbers of OS/2 users.


    With all due respect, you are preaching to the choir, but you're also
    basic your admittedly cogent observations on versions of OS/2 that were
    developed over ten years ago and which are completely frozen in time.

    The OS/2 community has moved on. eComStation is the modern variant
    you're looking for. It solves most of the issues that you mention, and
    it solves them precisely because it was painfully obvious to the OS/2
    community many years ago that the basic OS/2 Warp 4 package from IBM
    was becoming inadequate and difficult to install on modern hardware.

    Don't criticise the community before becoming familiar with what we've
    actually done. It's like a Linux user coming in and slamming the modern
    Linux community based on the contents of a Slackware 3.1 CD that they
    found in an old magazine. Things have changed just a tad since then...

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Mableton, GA USA
    Mainframe/Unix bit twiddler by day, OS/2+Linux+DOS hobbyist by night.
    WARNING: I've seen FIELDATA FORTRAN V and I know how to use it!
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

  15. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    On 05/01/07 03:49 pm Day Brown wrote:

    > Well, if you all want to run a private club, you're certainly free to
    > do that.
    > But if you want more *users* so that more development continues to
    > keep up with the hardware, then you havta do things more like they
    > expect from their experience with installing other operating systems.
    >
    > Many of the recent Linux distros default to copying the entire CD to
    > the hard drive and then run the rest of the install from there.
    > Likewise, you can install a newer version of freedos or drdos from
    > downloaded archives, and *never* get told to put an install CD in the
    > drive like windoze says, much less havta punch in that damned
    > registration number.
    >
    > I grant that all these non-windoze users are but a niche market, but
    > globally, that still turns out to be milions of users who'd take a
    > look at OS/2 if there was an install system as convenient as they were
    > used to.
    >
    > OS/2 has a lot going for it. The tighter code brings up graphic apps
    > faster than the other gui interfaces I've seen. You dont need the
    > latest hot iron for a convenient desktop. But you do need a smoother
    > install system if you want newbies to experience the advantages of OS/
    > 2.
    >
    > In surfing for video drivers, I found them all right, but they were
    > embedded in corporate websites. Were I to look for dos drivers, I'd
    > find *lots* of websites put up by dos users with file lists of drivers
    > and other apps they think other users mite like. Maybe you all do have
    > user supported websites, but if so, google is not that well acquainted
    > with them.
    >
    > Then too, there's the driver base itself. Nobody seems to know about
    > RAR. And then, they put the docs in .pdf; hello? is anybody actually
    > going to print it out? is there a new enough acrobat driver to read
    > it? what the hell was wrong with file_id.diz or a plain ascii
    > readme.txt that you could look at from virtually another operating
    > system?
    >
    > I'm not ragging on the OS/2 operating system, I'm saying that the
    > install software is not up to speed if you want to increase the
    > numbers of OS/2 users. It aint rocket science. The tips listed above
    > could all be put in a dos batch program to copy the entire warp CD
    > sets onto a partition. I saw a 20 gig IDE for 15$ a few days ago, and
    > may order a few. It wouldnt be a biggie to put in a 2 gig fat 16 dos
    > partition, copy the warp CDs to that, and then use PART.EXE or
    > whatever to put fat 32 or NTFS


    OS/2 has moved on since Warp 3 days. Its current "reincarnation" is
    eComStation (eCS). I have eCS 1.2R running on a dual-core AMD system
    with on-board sound and Gigabit networking and a PCI-Express video card.
    Getting it to run in SMP mode did take a little tinkering, I'll admit,
    but keep in mind that there were no dual-core CPUs around when eCS 1.2
    was released.

    The latest beta of eCS 2.0 installed on this same system, with the
    dual-core feature and the other devices being recognized by the
    installer; all the necessary drivers were on the CD. eCS installs more
    quickly than WinXP and requires no typing in of a registration key: the
    key came in an email, and I saved it to a floppy and to a flash drive,
    from either of which I can import it when it's needed.

    Perce

  16. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Day Brown wrote:
    > Well, if you all want to run a private club, you're certainly free to
    > do that.
    > But if you want more *users* so that more development continues to
    > keep up with the hardware, then you havta do things more like they
    > expect from their experience with installing other operating systems.
    >
    > Many of the recent Linux distros default to copying the entire CD to
    > the hard drive and then run the rest of the install from there.
    > Likewise, you can install a newer version of freedos or drdos from
    > downloaded archives, and *never* get told to put an install CD in the
    > drive like windoze says, much less havta punch in that damned
    > registration number.
    >
    > I grant that all these non-windoze users are but a niche market, but
    > globally, that still turns out to be milions of users who'd take a
    > look at OS/2 if there was an install system as convenient as they were
    > used to.
    >
    > OS/2 has a lot going for it. The tighter code brings up graphic apps
    > faster than the other gui interfaces I've seen. You dont need the
    > latest hot iron for a convenient desktop. But you do need a smoother
    > install system if you want newbies to experience the advantages of OS/
    > 2.
    >
    > In surfing for video drivers, I found them all right, but they were
    > embedded in corporate websites. Were I to look for dos drivers, I'd
    > find *lots* of websites put up by dos users with file lists of drivers
    > and other apps they think other users mite like. Maybe you all do have
    > user supported websites, but if so, google is not that well acquainted
    > with them.
    >
    > Then too, there's the driver base itself. Nobody seems to know about
    > RAR. And then, they put the docs in .pdf; hello? is anybody actually
    > going to print it out? is there a new enough acrobat driver to read
    > it? what the hell was wrong with file_id.diz or a plain ascii
    > readme.txt that you could look at from virtually another operating
    > system?
    >
    > I'm not ragging on the OS/2 operating system, I'm saying that the
    > install software is not up to speed if you want to increase the
    > numbers of OS/2 users. It aint rocket science. The tips listed above
    > could all be put in a dos batch program to copy the entire warp CD
    > sets onto a partition. I saw a 20 gig IDE for 15$ a few days ago, and
    > may order a few. It wouldnt be a biggie to put in a 2 gig fat 16 dos
    > partition, copy the warp CDs to that, and then use PART.EXE or
    > whatever to put fat 32 or NTFS
    >


    Try and install Red Hat 1.0 on current machines. It was released on
    November 3, 1994. Right around the same time OS/2 3.0 was. Good luck.

    Now, tell me how easy it is to get display drivers working for new cards
    in that system.

    Bob Plyler

  17. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In , on 05/02/2007
    at 12:40 AM, black.hole.4.spam@gmail.com (Don Hills) said:

    >No, it ain't in there because it doesn't do it. The original design
    >assumed that display adapter and monitor manufacturers would
    >implement DMQS,


    That's the right answer to the wrong question. He's not asking about
    automatically getting the right settings, but rather about

    1. Low level tweaking of the settings. Not available in eCS.

    2. Changing resolution without a reboot. Not available in eCS.

    3. Testing proposed changes; that's been available since Old Man
    Noach cornered the market in gopher wood.

    >ATI Rage drivers were always difficult.


    C 'Rage' ''

    >Anyway, people who have been in the business as long as you have
    >don't need their hand held by being able to step through the
    >drivers. :-)


    Sure they do; that's why[1] OS/2 has the little white box. But I see
    that you know that ;-)

    [1] Well, one of the reasons.
    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

    Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
    domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
    reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org


  18. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In <4637fe62$0$505$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, on 05/01/2007
    at 08:58 PM, Will Honea said:

    >The converse of your analogy is to have modern computer hardware try
    >to recover data stored on media common more than a decade ago.


    BTDTGTTS. No trouble with either open reel or cartridge.

    If you want a challenge[1], find someone that can read PE, NRZI or
    7-track.

    As for the OP, I agree that getting eCS would be a lot less hassle
    than running a back-level release.

    [1] With my luck someone is still running instrumentation that uses
    7-track tapes, in which case I will deny all knowledge of tape
    formats.

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

    Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
    domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
    reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org


  19. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In , on 05/02/2007
    at 01:22 PM, black.hole.4.spam@gmail.com (Don Hills) said:

    >The team working on eCS have/are putting a lot of effort into the
    >install process.


    Yeah, but they're only working on the current release, not trying to
    refit the enhancements to Warp 3. Even if IBM reversed direction and
    started pushing OS/2 again, there is *NO* possibility that they would
    do anything for Warp 3 users beyond offering a decent price on an
    upgrade. Much of what the OP is complaining about is the direct result
    of not upgrading; let him bite the bullet and order eCS.

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

    Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
    domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
    reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org


  20. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:

    >>The converse of your analogy is to have modern computer hardware try
    >>to recover data stored on media common more than a decade ago.

    >
    > BTDTGTTS. No trouble with either open reel or cartridge.
    >
    > If you want a challenge[1], find someone that can read PE, NRZI or
    > 7-track.
    >
    > As for the OP, I agree that getting eCS would be a lot less hassle
    > than running a back-level release.
    >
    > [1] With my luck someone is still running instrumentation that uses
    > 7-track tapes, in which case I will deny all knowledge of tape
    > formats.


    Believe it or not, that actually means something to me. A few years back I
    had occasion to reference some test data from some AF bomb tests I worked
    on in the early 70s. The raw analog source tapes had been transcribed to 7
    track with the analysis stored in several crates of punch cards (use a
    forklift to carry the data around ). I was able to con a local business
    that still had card readers/sorters around into transferring the cards to
    tape (9 track) but we had to re-construct the 7 track read hardware.

    One good thing did come out of this, though. Much of the really old data
    stores have test data from testing no longer available due to nuke
    restrictions and the like so this goat-rope stirred the labs into
    translating the old data to a more available format before ALL the hardware
    disappeared.

    This raises a pertinent question that is a bit far afield from the original
    topic but still of considerable importance: What media/format is
    appropriate for data that has potential usefulness decades from now? The
    optical media like CDR/DVD are proving to be a bit ephemeral, Tape is
    durable but the hardware is becoming less and less common. Any rotating
    media is subject to long term degradation in storage even if the magnetic
    media is stable simply due to aging effects on the suspension systems.

    Even if we re-write the existing data periodically to bridge it from
    obsolescent or degrading media to current media, at some point we
    eventually reach the point where maintaining the existing base requires so
    much time and resource that there is nothing left for new input...

    --
    Will Honea

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