Installing warp 3 from DRDOS? - OS2

This is a discussion on Installing warp 3 from DRDOS? - OS2 ; In , on 05/02/2007 at 02:43 PM, Will Honea said: ....interesting stuff snipped... >This raises a pertinent question that is a bit far afield from the >original topic but still of considerable importance: What media/format is >appropriate for data that ...

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Thread: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

  1. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In <4638f808$0$492$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, on 05/02/2007
    at 02:43 PM, Will Honea said:

    ....interesting stuff snipped...

    >This raises a pertinent question that is a bit far afield from the
    >original topic but still of considerable importance: What media/format is
    >appropriate for data that has potential usefulness decades from now? The
    >optical media like CDR/DVD are proving to be a bit ephemeral, Tape is
    >durable but the hardware is becoming less and less common. Any rotating
    >media is subject to long term degradation in storage even if the magnetic
    >media is stable simply due to aging effects on the suspension systems.


    DLT is available and the price on drives has dropped a bit recently, so
    this may be the medium you want to transcribe to. A single DLT is able to
    hold 80G of data compressed, so you will be able to pack many older tapes
    onto a single DLT cartridge. Of course this now gives a single point of
    failure for more data, but as it is newer technology I would hope it would
    be available for longer into the future.

    -- Dave
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    dhdurgeeverizonnet
    -----------------------------------------------------------


  2. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    On Wed, 02 May 2007 14:43:51 -0600, Will Honea wrote:

    > What media/format is appropriate for data that has potential usefulness
    > decades from now?


    Paper. And I'm not joking...

  3. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In , on 05/02/2007
    at 11:32 PM, Paul Ratcliffe said:

    >> What media/format is appropriate for data that has potential usefulness
    >> decades from now?


    >Paper. And I'm not joking...


    True enough. The scrolls are still around.

    Regards,

    Steven

    --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Steven Levine MR2/ICE 3.00 beta 04 #10183
    eCS/Warp/DIY/14.103a_W4 www.scoug.com irc.ca.webbnet.info #scoug (Wed 7pm PST)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  4. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In <4638f808$0$492$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, on 05/02/2007
    at 02:43 PM, Will Honea said:

    >This raises a pertinent question that is a bit far afield from the
    >original topic but still of considerable importance: What media/format is
    >appropriate for data that has potential usefulness decades from now?


    I've thought about this now and then and there's no easy answer. Part of
    the problem is that the media formats are changing so rapidly that who
    knows what's going to be supported 20 years from now. I've got tapes and
    diskettes written in the 80s and maybe even earlier that are still in
    storage because the space they occupy is not yet needed for other things.
    The media might still be readable, but finding something to read them
    would be a project in itself.

    >obsolescent or degrading media to current media, at some point we
    >eventually reach the point where maintaining the existing base requires
    >so much time and resource that there is nothing left for new input...


    The data will just get thrown away. This already happens for a large
    percentage of of data that gets generated. Think of the number of users
    that reinstall and lose everything they had. I see a lot of this. They
    just start over.

    Regards,

    Steven

    --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Steven Levine MR2/ICE 3.00 beta 04 #10183
    eCS/Warp/DIY/14.103a_W4 www.scoug.com irc.ca.webbnet.info #scoug (Wed 7pm PST)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  5. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In <4638f808$0$492$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, on 05/02/2007
    at 02:43 PM, Will Honea said:

    >Believe it or not, that actually means something to me.


    Ph, I believe that. What I don't want to believe is that someone is
    recording new data on 7-track. "I CAN'T HEAR YOU. I DON'T DO 7-TRACK."

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

    Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
    domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
    reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org


  6. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Paul Ratcliffe wrote:

    > On Wed, 02 May 2007 14:43:51 -0600, Will Honea wrote:
    >
    >> What media/format is appropriate for data that has potential usefulness
    >> decades from now?

    >
    > Paper. And I'm not joking...


    The question was as much rhetorical as anything, but I tend to agree with
    your conclusion but maybe going a bit further still. I mean, the
    Babylonian tablets are much older than the scrolls...

    Seriously, though, I would think that it's time to start giving more thought
    to data with a view to data integrity. Being able to read the ancient
    writings with the human eye introduces a remarkable amount of redundancy
    even if the interpretations vary considerably. Fascinating topic.
    --
    Will Honea

  7. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Steven Levine wrote:

    > The data will just get thrown away. *This already happens for a large
    > percentage of of data that gets generated. *Think of the number of users
    > that reinstall and lose everything they had. *I see a lot of this. *They
    > just start over.


    In large measure, I agree with you since much of the storage bulk here is
    actually redundant and could be recovered from primary sources if need be.
    Some of the stuff I've worked with is actually that primary source data
    from events that cannot be repeated. Many nuclear concepts are actually
    derived from very early data - to the point that actually tracing the
    validity of some of the modern concepts would be impossible to re-construct
    without decades old datasets. Besides, I hate to re-invent the wheel
    periodically.

    --
    Will Honea

  8. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    On Wed, 2 May 2007 23:32:43 UTC, Paul Ratcliffe
    wrote:

    > On Wed, 02 May 2007 14:43:51 -0600, Will Honea wrote:
    >
    > > What media/format is appropriate for data that has potential usefulness
    > > decades from now?

    >
    > Paper. And I'm not joking...


    Acid free paper! :-)
    --
    Bob Eager



  9. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    On Thu, 3 May 2007 01:41:32 UTC, Steven Levine wrote:

    > In <4638f808$0$492$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, on 05/02/2007
    > at 02:43 PM, Will Honea said:
    >
    > >This raises a pertinent question that is a bit far afield from the
    > >original topic but still of considerable importance: What media/format is
    > >appropriate for data that has potential usefulness decades from now?

    >
    > I've thought about this now and then and there's no easy answer. Part of
    > the problem is that the media formats are changing so rapidly that who
    > knows what's going to be supported 20 years from now. I've got tapes and
    > diskettes written in the 80s and maybe even earlier that are still in
    > storage because the space they occupy is not yet needed for other things.
    > The media might still be readable, but finding something to read them
    > would be a project in itself.


    So true, so true.

    It's worth considering not just the rapidly changing media/formats recently,
    but I got a bit stymied with my older photos on celluloid, or whatever Kodacolor
    was made out of in the 60s - 70s. Unlike paper, I recall learning that these
    negatives (particularly color) are much less stable than good paper. So, with
    wisdom or not, I scanned them in (hundreds) to be turned into a big number, each.
    I've burned most on CDr (JPEGs), gave copies to the kids, all the while knowing
    that that media, the CD-stuff, may only be good for what? 20 - 100 years with luck?

    I think the a compact strategy with images obviates the use of paper . . . at least
    economically. Unless an economic archival-bullet appears soon, you've got to
    recopy everything periodically . . . which is theoretically lossless . . . well, not
    lossless in the original-JPEG-conversion-sense, but you get the idea. Graphics
    are bit/byte hungry, particularly for hi-res pix.

    > >obsolescent or degrading media to current media, at some point we
    > >eventually reach the point where maintaining the existing base requires
    > >so much time and resource that there is nothing left for new input...

    >
    > The data will just get thrown away. This already happens for a large
    > percentage of of data that gets generated. Think of the number of users
    > that reinstall and lose everything they had. I see a lot of this. They
    > just start over.


    Yep. That underscores your point above about finding a future device that
    can read/transcribe them. Paper and buggy whips were pretty good inventions,
    weren't they?

    I've got a lot of personal data on a DEC DLT (not DecTape!) from ca. '77 - '90, that,
    although I have a newer DLT drive, I can't figure out if it's even possible to recover
    the data without getting a microVAX with VMS, or paying a fortune to some forensic
    specialist, who still might screw things up. If I don't find a reasonable solution within
    the next decade or so, the tapes will get thrown out.

    --
    Best,
    Erick Andrews
    delete bogus to reply


  10. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Hi Steven

    Steven Levine wrote:
    > In <4638f808$0$492$815e3792@news.qwest.net>, on 05/02/2007
    > at 02:43 PM, Will Honea said:
    >
    >> This raises a pertinent question that is a bit far afield from the
    >> original topic but still of considerable importance: What media/format is
    >> appropriate for data that has potential usefulness decades from now?

    >
    > I've thought about this now and then and there's no easy answer. Part of
    > the problem is that the media formats are changing so rapidly that who
    > knows what's going to be supported 20 years from now. I've got tapes and
    > diskettes written in the 80s and maybe even earlier that are still in
    > storage because the space they occupy is not yet needed for other things.
    > The media might still be readable, but finding something to read them
    > would be a project in itself.
    >



    A good example of the problem: In the late 1970's (I think) the BBC
    carried out a project which included saving data to the then current
    laser disc format and buried the results in a time capsule.

    When the BBC retrieved the time capsule around 20 years later they had a
    Big job to find a laser disc player - and especially 1 that still worked ;-)

    Looks like Paul's "Paper" response is probably right as we can (fairly)
    easily read data written on paper or parchment from centuries ago but
    may have trouble finding the necessary hardware to read data written to
    some "high tech solution" that has become obsolete.

    Regards

    Pete



    >> obsolescent or degrading media to current media, at some point we
    >> eventually reach the point where maintaining the existing base requires
    >> so much time and resource that there is nothing left for new input...

    >
    > The data will just get thrown away. This already happens for a large
    > percentage of of data that gets generated. Think of the number of users
    > that reinstall and lose everything they had. I see a lot of this. They
    > just start over.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Steven
    >


  11. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    In , on 05/03/2007
    at 11:23 PM, Peter Brown said:

    >A good example of the problem: In the late 1970's (I think) the BBC
    >carried out a project which included saving data to the then current
    >laser disc format and buried the results in a time capsule.


    The lesson there is to archive hardware along with the data.

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

    Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
    domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
    reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org


  12. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    On Fri, 4 May 2007 09:50:04 UTC, "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz"
    opined:
    > In , on 05/03/2007
    > at 11:23 PM, Peter Brown said:
    >
    > >A good example of the problem: In the late 1970's (I think) the BBC
    > >carried out a project which included saving data to the then current
    > >laser disc format and buried the results in a time capsule.

    >
    > The lesson there is to archive hardware along with the data.


    Along with copies of its User Manual, Service Manual, a set of
    critical spare parts, and the telephone number of the manufacturer's
    Support Staff.

    --
    Stan Goodman
    Qiryat Tiv'on
    Israel


  13. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Here in comp.os.os2.misc,
    "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz"
    spake unto us, saying:

    >In , on 05/02/2007
    > at 12:40 AM, black.hole.4.spam@gmail.com (Don Hills) said:
    >
    >>No, it ain't in there because it doesn't do it. The original design
    >>assumed that display adapter and monitor manufacturers would
    >>implement DMQS,

    >
    >That's the right answer to the wrong question. He's not asking about
    >automatically getting the right settings, but rather about
    >
    > 1. Low level tweaking of the settings. Not available in eCS.


    If one runs XFree86 as the X server under eCS, one can do that sort of
    adjustment to the fullscreen X desktop under OS/2 just as any Linux or
    FreeBSD distribution can.

    Of course, the software one can run in that environment is somewhat
    limited under eCS. :-)

    > 2. Changing resolution without a reboot. Not available in eCS.


    True, but some drivers have supported features such as Matrox's old but
    time-tested PixelTouch (a 3-stage Zoom) for many years. That isn't the
    same as a general resolution change, but it works wonderfully for quick
    zooming when working in any PM application.

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Mableton, GA USA
    Mainframe/Unix bit twiddler by day, OS/2+Linux+DOS hobbyist by night.
    WARNING: I've seen FIELDATA FORTRAN V and I know how to use it!
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

  14. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    On May 1, 2:29 am, Day Brown wrote:
    >
    > All I really need the GUI for is the browser and Youtube. I dont use

    [...]
    > faster than Linux can on the same hardware. If I can just get the
    > hardware that I have configured right....


    Hi Day:

    I have OS/2 3.0 running on modern hardware.
    Basically, you need Dani's drivers, Scitech's display
    drivers, Genmac network drivers, and possibly new sound
    drivers (uniaud) over top FP_40. The easiest way is to
    do this is using an updated ISO image floating around.
    It should install as any other OS from a CD ROM.
    Alternatively, you could copy the installation tree to
    your hard drive, and add a config.sys line (SET
    SOURCEPATH=F:\OS2IMAGE).

    However, after all this, you probably will not get
    Youtube running, as it uses new Flash crap which 3.0
    has no support for, as it needs the enhanced W32
    libraries only supported on the 4.0 + kernels.

    later,
    lin Baden


  15. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Paul Ratcliffe schrieb:
    >
    > On Wed, 02 May 2007 14:43:51 -0600, Will Honea wrote:
    >
    > > What media/format is appropriate for data that has potential usefulness
    > > decades from now?

    >
    > Paper. And I'm not joking...


    Even more reliable would be stone. And I'm also not joking.

    Hendrik

  16. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Hendrik Schmieder wrote:
    > Paul Ratcliffe schrieb:
    >
    >>On Wed, 02 May 2007 14:43:51 -0600, Will Honea wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>What media/format is appropriate for data that has potential usefulness
    >>>decades from now?

    >>
    >>Paper. And I'm not joking...

    >
    > Even more reliable would be stone. And I'm also not joking.


    But doesn't paper cover stone?

    --
    [Reverse the parts of the e-mail address to reply.]

  17. Re: Installing warp 3 from DRDOS?

    Here in comp.os.os2.misc,
    Marty spake unto us, saying:

    >Hendrik Schmieder wrote:
    >> Paul Ratcliffe schrieb:
    >>
    >>>Paper. And I'm not joking...

    >>
    >> Even more reliable would be stone. And I'm also not joking.

    >
    >But doesn't paper cover stone?


    Not according to a TV commercial I saw recently. The guy (literally)
    threw a stone and won (by knocking the other guy out)! :-)

    --
    -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Mableton, GA USA
    Mainframe/Unix bit twiddler by day, OS/2+Linux+DOS hobbyist by night.
    WARNING: I've seen FIELDATA FORTRAN V and I know how to use it!
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

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