Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots - NTP

This is a discussion on Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots - NTP ; Danny Mayer wrote: > Richard B. gilbert wrote: >> Donald Murray, P.Eng. wrote: >>> On 10 Feb 2007 02:16:02 GMT, Steve Kostecke >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2007-02-08, Donald Murray, P.Eng. wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> How quickly can an isolated ...

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Thread: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots

  1. Re: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots

    Danny Mayer wrote:
    > Richard B. gilbert wrote:
    >> Donald Murray, P.Eng. wrote:
    >>> On 10 Feb 2007 02:16:02 GMT, Steve Kostecke
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 2007-02-08, Donald Murray, P.Eng. wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> How quickly can an isolated ntp server respond to 'ntpdate'
    >>>>> queries after the server starts?

    >>
    >>> I bet this sounds pretty awful to most of you. It sounds kind of
    >>> awful
    >>> to me as well.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate everyone taking the time
    >>> to respond. Do I get a prize for most inappropriate use of ntp? ;-)

    >>
    >>
    >> You have NO IDEA how fierce the competition for that prize is!!!!!
    >>
    >> I don't think we've seen anybody trying to NTP to drive nails or fix
    >> a dripping faucet but sooner or later we'll get those too.

    >
    > Well using it as a thermometer is one of the more interesting
    > usages...
    >
    > Danny


    I use it to detect if there has been a break in a satellite signal. When
    there is a break, the receiver code goes wild and grabs all the CPU,
    resulting in a transient visible by plotting NTP offset....

    David



  2. Re: Fwd: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots

    Richard,

    The rfc1305 is fourteen years old and now overtaken by the NTPv4 draft
    now on the project page. I would be happy to add a glossary and index,
    but not in Postel ASCII. My tools produce wonderful, beautiful
    PostScript and PDF, but not Postel ASCII.

    Dave

    Richard B. gilbert wrote:

    > Uwe Klein wrote:
    >
    >> Richard B. gilbert wrote:
    >>
    >>> Uwe Klein wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Richard B. gilbert wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Harlan Stenn wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Donald,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Have you seen http://ntp.isc.org/Support/StartingNTP4 ?
    >>>>>>

    >
    >
    >>>>> That's an interesting article but it misuses the word "precision".
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> isn't that "resolution" ?
    >>>> iananes ( i am not a native english speaker ;-)
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Don't worry about it. Your English is SO much better than my Deutch.
    >>> (I can make a few polite noises in Español, Deütch, Nihongo
    >>> (Japanese) and Turkish). I'm fluent only in English and it could be
    >>> argued convincingly that I'm not fluent in English either!
    >>>
    >>> Resolution is a good synonym but NTP usage describes the "precision"

    >
    >
    >
    >>
    >> What about a glossary of terms used?
    >>
    >> uwe

    >
    >
    > A glossary would help too. At 113 8-1/2x11" pages, it's a fair sized
    > book and both an index and a glossary would be appropriate additions.
    >


  3. Re: Resolution and Precision

    David,

    You quoth ancient history. That was fifteen years ago and time has
    marched onward. The present definitions of resolution and precision were
    refined over many years of use and practice and very carefully sorted
    out in the NTPv4 spec.

    Dave

    David J Taylor wrote:

    > mills@udel.edu wrote:
    >
    >>David,
    >>
    >>RFC 1305 was the seat of furious controversy. I consider the only
    >>authorative document is in PostScript, later in PDF. The IETF and I
    >>have engaged in serious disagreement on PDF formats as against Postel
    >>ASCII. Everything, and I mean everything today is in PDF - Governent
    >>documents and forms, University documents and forms, IEEE standards,
    >>ACM and IEEE publications and everything else I do is in PDF. So,
    >>what you see is what you get. The PDF of RFC 1305 is on the NTP
    >>project page.
    >>Dave

    >
    >
    > Thanks, Dave.
    >
    > I see that reference 25 points to:
    > Abstract:
    > http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat...5/rfc1305a.pdf
    > Body: http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat...5/rfc1305b.pdf
    > Appendices:
    > http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat...5/rfc1305c.pdf
    >
    > On page 11 of the body, the word "precision" is used in the context where
    > I would use "resolution". It isn't used in the sense of "how close to the
    > correct time is this clock", which I might call accuracy. Perhaps it
    > would be helpful to have these terms defined somewhere? Perhaps the terms
    > are used differently by different cultures, even!
    >
    > Cheers,
    > David
    >
    >


  4. Re: Fwd: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots

    mills@udel.edu wrote:
    > Richard,
    >
    > The rfc1305 is fourteen years old and now overtaken by the NTPv4 draft
    > now on the project page. I would be happy to add a glossary and index,
    > but not in Postel ASCII. My tools produce wonderful, beautiful
    > PostScript and PDF, but not Postel ASCII.
    >
    > Dave
    >



    You're preaching to the converted! I have no problem with PDF. I don't
    have the (expensive) tools to produce or edit it but I don't need them.
    The reader is free!

    Jonathan Postel made a well deserved name for himself but time moves on,
    improved tools become available. . . .


  5. Re: Resolution and Precision

    mills@udel.edu wrote:
    > David,
    >
    > You quoth ancient history. That was fifteen years ago and time has
    > marched onward. The present definitions of resolution and precision
    > were refined over many years of use and practice and very carefully
    > sorted out in the NTPv4 spec.
    >
    > Dave


    Thanks, Dave. If there is a URL which gives the definitive definitions we
    would all appreciate it. Are these correct?

    http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Support/...tedDefinitions

    73,
    David



  6. Re: Fwd: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots

    mills@udel.edu wrote:
    > Richard,
    >
    > The rfc1305 is fourteen years old and now overtaken by the NTPv4 draft
    > now on the project page. I would be happy to add a glossary and index,
    > but not in Postel ASCII. My tools produce wonderful, beautiful
    > PostScript and PDF, but not Postel ASCII.


    Do I find a definition of "Postel ASCII" somewhere?

    The only mention i found through google were some
    notoriously known persons discussing
    how to convert pdf -> Postel ASCII
    ( and that well in the past ;-))

    I don't have a problem with getting plain ascii from pdf, but
    there may be special pee to invest to achieve postel ascii?

    uwe

  7. Re: Fwd: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots

    Uwe Klein wrote:
    > mills@udel.edu wrote:
    >
    >> Richard,
    >>
    >> The rfc1305 is fourteen years old and now overtaken by the NTPv4 draft
    >> now on the project page. I would be happy to add a glossary and index,
    >> but not in Postel ASCII. My tools produce wonderful, beautiful
    >> PostScript and PDF, but not Postel ASCII.

    >
    >
    > Do I find a definition of "Postel ASCII" somewhere?
    >
    > The only mention i found through google were some
    > notoriously known persons discussing
    > how to convert pdf -> Postel ASCII
    > ( and that well in the past ;-))
    >
    > I don't have a problem with getting plain ascii from pdf, but
    > there may be special pee to invest to achieve postel ascii?
    >
    > uwe


    Jonathan Postel was one of the Internet pioneers and was responsible for
    editing RFCs for publication (or something like that). This was back in
    the 1980's and maybe early 1990's. He insisted that RFCs be plain ASCII
    text; no PostScript, no WordPerfect/Word/Wordstar etc. Plain ASCII text
    could be read and written by anyone. None of the other potential
    formats was easily accessible to everyone regardless of what O/S he was
    running or the hardware platform he was running it on.

    This was probably the proper call for that day and age. The world has
    moved on.

    PDF is accessible to most people and most O/Ss but there are exceptions.
    Adobe refuses to support the Solaris X86 platform. I don't think
    there was ever a PDF reader for VMS.

    Jonathan Postel has since died and some people feel that his ASCII text
    only rule should continue in perpetuity or something. I don't agree but
    I wasn't given a vote!


  8. Re: Fwd: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly after SERVER boots

    Richard B. gilbert wrote:

    > Jonathan Postel was one of the Internet pioneers and was responsible for
    > editing RFCs for publication (or something like that). This was back in
    > the 1980's and maybe early 1990's. He insisted that RFCs be plain ASCII
    > text; no PostScript, no WordPerfect/Word/Wordstar etc. Plain ASCII text
    > could be read and written by anyone. None of the other potential
    > formats was easily accessible to everyone regardless of what O/S he was
    > running or the hardware platform he was running it on.

    So its just plain ASCII then.

    pdftotext *.pdf

    works like a charm, one would have to massage the indices and some title
    lines.
    >
    > This was probably the proper call for that day and age. The world has
    > moved on.
    >
    > PDF is accessible to most people and most O/Ss but there are exceptions.
    > Adobe refuses to support the Solaris X86 platform. I don't think there
    > was ever a PDF reader for VMS.

    what about xpdf?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf
    it does not support embedded ECMA Script ( a boon ithink)

    uwe

  9. Re: Resolution and Precision

    On Feb 15, 4:48 am, m...@udel.edu wrote:
    > You quoth ancient history. That was fifteen years ago and time has
    > marched onward. The present definitions of resolution and precision were
    > refined over many years of use and practice and very carefully sorted
    > out in the NTPv4 spec.


    Hi Dave,

    By "spec" do you mean the SNTPv4 RFCs? Or a draft of the full NTPv4
    RFC (which I can't seem to find)?

    Or by "spec" do you mean the documentation that comes with the code?

    Is there still an effort to product an RFC for NTPv4 underway? Or do
    the SNTPv4 RFCs suffice for describing the protocol (leaving the core
    clock algorithms up to the implementation)?

    Regards,
    Ryan


  10. Re: Resolution and Precision

    On Feb 16, 8:20 am, "Ry" wrote:
    > Is there still an effort to product an RFC for NTPv4 underway? Or do
    > the SNTPv4 RFCs suffice for describing the protocol (leaving the core
    > clock algorithms up to the implementation)?


    Whoops... I wrote that too soon. I found it on your udel pages.

    This is the correct link, right?
    http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat.../ntp4/ntp4.pdf

    Or is it this one?
    http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntpv4.txt


  11. Re: Resolution and Precision

    David,

    I can't say whether those defintions are truly correct or not, but they
    appear to be a reasonable gloss. The only truly authoritative
    definitions are in the specification document.

    Dave

    David J Taylor wrote:

    > mills@udel.edu wrote:
    >
    >>David,
    >>
    >>You quoth ancient history. That was fifteen years ago and time has
    >>marched onward. The present definitions of resolution and precision
    >>were refined over many years of use and practice and very carefully
    >>sorted out in the NTPv4 spec.
    >>
    >>Dave

    >
    >
    > Thanks, Dave. If there is a URL which gives the definitive definitions we
    > would all appreciate it. Are these correct?
    >
    > http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Support/...tedDefinitions
    >
    > 73,
    > David
    >
    >


  12. Re: Resolution and Precision

    Ry,

    The SNTP documents don't discuss the resolution/precision issues. The
    draft NTPv4 spec, which by the way overtakes the prior SNTPv4 documents,
    is intended as the definitive document. You can find it in unformatted
    form at the NTP project page www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp.html.

    Dave

    Ry wrote:

    > On Feb 15, 4:48 am, m...@udel.edu wrote:
    >
    >>You quoth ancient history. That was fifteen years ago and time has
    >>marched onward. The present definitions of resolution and precision were
    >>refined over many years of use and practice and very carefully sorted
    >>out in the NTPv4 spec.

    >
    >
    > Hi Dave,
    >
    > By "spec" do you mean the SNTPv4 RFCs? Or a draft of the full NTPv4
    > RFC (which I can't seem to find)?
    >
    > Or by "spec" do you mean the documentation that comes with the code?
    >
    > Is there still an effort to product an RFC for NTPv4 underway? Or do
    > the SNTPv4 RFCs suffice for describing the protocol (leaving the core
    > clock algorithms up to the implementation)?
    >
    > Regards,
    > Ryan
    >


  13. Re: Resolution and Precision

    David L. Mills wrote:
    > David,
    >
    > I can't say whether those defintions are truly correct or not, but
    > they appear to be a reasonable gloss. The only truly authoritative
    > definitions are in the specification document.
    >
    > Dave


    Thanks, Dave. That's encouraging. I hope that the maintainers of the
    wiki will keep in step with the specification document.

    73,
    David



  14. Re: Resolution and Precision

    Ry,

    You scratch a really contentious itch. The PDF report you found was my
    submission to the NTP working group, but it is not in Postel ASCII as
    required by the IETF. The Postel ASCII is the .txt format you found, but
    it has not been formated as Postel ASCII yet. BOth documents are
    intended to describe the same specification; however, the .txt document,
    which has been wordsmithed somewhat from the PDF, is probably the
    definitive document.

    Dave

    Ry wrote:

    > On Feb 16, 8:20 am, "Ry" wrote:
    >
    >>Is there still an effort to product an RFC for NTPv4 underway? Or do
    >>the SNTPv4 RFCs suffice for describing the protocol (leaving the core
    >>clock algorithms up to the implementation)?

    >
    >
    > Whoops... I wrote that too soon. I found it on your udel pages.
    >
    > This is the correct link, right?
    > http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat.../ntp4/ntp4.pdf
    >
    > Or is it this one?
    > http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntpv4.txt
    >


  15. Re: Resolution and Precision

    >>> In article <7zmBh.1124$I46.745@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, "David J Taylor" writes:

    David> I hope that the maintainers of the wiki will keep in step with the
    David> specification document.

    There is no official maintainer of the vast majority of the wiki pages at
    ntp.isc.org .

    Those pages may be updated by anybody with an interest in improving them.

    H

  16. Re: Resolution and Precision

    On 2007-02-16, David J Taylor wrote:

    > David L. Mills wrote:
    >
    >> The only truly authoritative definitions are in the specification
    >> document.

    >
    > I hope that the maintainers of the wiki will keep in step with the
    > specification document.


    It's a Wiki. Any interested party is welcome to step up to the plate and
    help out. Otherwise, they'll just have to wait someone else to do the
    work.

    --
    Steve Kostecke
    NTP Public Services Project - http://ntp.isc.org/

  17. Re: Resolution and Precision

    On Feb 16, 12:19 pm, "David L. Mills" wrote:
    > You scratch a really contentious itch. The PDF report you found was my
    > submission to the NTP working group, but it is not in Postel ASCII as
    > required by the IETF. The Postel ASCII is the .txt format you found, but
    > it has not been formated as Postel ASCII yet. BOth documents are
    > intended to describe the same specification; however, the .txt document,
    > which has been wordsmithed somewhat from the PDF, is probably the
    > definitive document.


    Isn't the formatting of long text files why undergraduate research
    assistants were invented? I would have done the work as a CS undergrad
    if I could have gotten my name attached to an RFC for a widely used
    protocol. ;-)

    Seriously, though, I cannot figure out why there is not more of an
    uproar against the IETF using ASCII formatting these days, especially
    with the globalization of the Internet. It would seem that the logical
    thing for them to do would be to define an XML schema for RFCs, and
    require submissions in that format, which can then be translated into
    HTML, ASCII, whatever. Or require OpenDoc, or some other rich format.
    But there are a lot of XML haters out there, even though this is one
    application for which XML was actually intended.

    Regards,
    Ryan


  18. Re: Resolution and Precision

    David,

    The terms time, epoch, resolution, precision, accuracy, time offset,
    frequency offset, jitter and wander are given precise definitions in the
    NTPv4 specification draft now linked from the NTP project page
    www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp.org.

    Dave

    David J Taylor wrote:

    > mills@udel.edu wrote:
    >
    >>David,
    >>
    >>RFC 1305 was the seat of furious controversy. I consider the only
    >>authorative document is in PostScript, later in PDF. The IETF and I
    >>have engaged in serious disagreement on PDF formats as against Postel
    >>ASCII. Everything, and I mean everything today is in PDF - Governent
    >>documents and forms, University documents and forms, IEEE standards,
    >>ACM and IEEE publications and everything else I do is in PDF. So,
    >>what you see is what you get. The PDF of RFC 1305 is on the NTP
    >>project page.
    >>Dave

    >
    >
    > Thanks, Dave.
    >
    > I see that reference 25 points to:
    > Abstract:
    > http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat...5/rfc1305a.pdf
    > Body: http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat...5/rfc1305b.pdf
    > Appendices:
    > http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/dat...5/rfc1305c.pdf
    >
    > On page 11 of the body, the word "precision" is used in the context where
    > I would use "resolution". It isn't used in the sense of "how close to the
    > correct time is this clock", which I might call accuracy. Perhaps it
    > would be helpful to have these terms defined somewhere? Perhaps the terms
    > are used differently by different cultures, even!
    >
    > Cheers,
    > David
    >
    >


  19. Re: Fwd: Using ntpdate -b SERVER shortly afterSERVER boots

    On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 11:17:42PM +0100, Uwe Klein wrote:
    > > PDF is accessible to most people and most O/Ss but there are exceptions.
    > > Adobe refuses to support the Solaris X86 platform. I don't think there
    > > was ever a PDF reader for VMS.

    > what about xpdf?
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf
    > it does not support embedded ECMA Script ( a boon ithink)


    What about DVI? BTW, lyx is an excellent GUI WYSIWYM LaTeX editor.
    --
    Good code works. Great code can't fail. -><-

    For a good time on my UBE blacklist, email john@subspacefield.org.

    _______________________________________________
    questions mailing list
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