HP media vault and stratum-1's - NTP

This is a discussion on HP media vault and stratum-1's - NTP ; I just got an HP Media Vault, a consumer-grade NFS-server product based on the Broadcom chipset. The unit appears to ignore the DHCP-supplied ntp servers I give it and came up poking tick and tock at the USNO (and some ...

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Thread: HP media vault and stratum-1's

  1. HP media vault and stratum-1's


    I just got an HP Media Vault, a consumer-grade NFS-server product
    based on the Broadcom chipset. The unit appears to ignore the
    DHCP-supplied ntp servers I give it and came up poking tick and tock
    at the USNO (and some other server in *.jp that I didn't recognize.)
    I thought companies agreed to stop doing this nonsense years ago.

    Sigh.

    -wolfgang
    --
    Wolfgang S. Rupprecht http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/

  2. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    Hi Wolfgang,

    I worked on the HP Media Vault and maintain a FAQ/Knowledgebase for it.
    We'll look for an alternative to the stratum-1 addresses that are hard coded
    into the time server. They are changeable, but right now it requires you
    to know the IP address of a suitable stratum-2 NTP server. I've written up
    an entry in the FAQ for anyone who would like to change the default IP
    addresses to some other values:

    http://www.k0lee.com/hpmediavault#ntp

    Lee Devlin
    http://www.k0lee.com


    "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" wrote in
    message news:87r6v41a0z.fsf@arbol.wsrcc.com...
    >
    > I just got an HP Media Vault, a consumer-grade NFS-server product
    > based on the Broadcom chipset. The unit appears to ignore the
    > DHCP-supplied ntp servers I give it and came up poking tick and tock
    > at the USNO (and some other server in *.jp that I didn't recognize.)
    > I thought companies agreed to stop doing this nonsense years ago.
    >
    > Sigh.
    >
    > -wolfgang
    > --
    > Wolfgang S. Rupprecht http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/




  3. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:10:57 GMT, "Lee Devlin"
    wrote:

    >I've written up
    >an entry in the FAQ for anyone who would like to change the default IP
    >addresses to some other values:
    >
    >http://www.k0lee.com/hpmediavault#ntp
    >
    >Lee Devlin
    >http://www.k0lee.com
    >
    >
    >"Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" wrote in
    >> I thought companies agreed to stop doing this nonsense years ago.


    From the FAQ:

    "There is a lot of controversy about accessing public NTP StratumOne servers by
    client devices."

    Wrong. The controversy ended years ago, The rules of engagement are crystal
    clear. Stratum 1 servers should be avoided by clients wherever possible.

    The USNO rules of engagement:

    "We request that you allow no more than three of your clients to poll our
    servers directly. Organizations with many clients should obtain time from local
    stratum 2 servers. ISPs should configure routers or firewalls to serve as
    stratum 2 servers to the ISP network."

    USNO's tick & tock (used by Media Vaults), and ntp2 are all stratum 1 machines
    in Washington, DC.

    "Note, the following three NTP servers are part of an IP load-balanced farm. You
    should choose only ONE of these three Washington, DC servers "

    The Fukuoka University server is Stratum 2, and it's listed as "open access" in
    the udel lists.


    Full marks to HP, though, for allowing the NTP server list to be configurable.

    Still, why can't HP maintain its own NTP servers for its own products?


  4. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:28:42 +0000, Marc Brett wrote:

    >The Fukuoka University server is Stratum 2, and it's listed as "open access" in
    >the udel lists.


    Correction: it's Stratum 1.


  5. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    "Marc Brett" wrote in message >>
    >>
    >>"Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" wrote in
    >>> I thought companies agreed to stop doing this nonsense years ago.

    >
    > From the FAQ:
    >
    > "There is a lot of controversy about accessing public NTP StratumOne
    > servers by
    > client devices."
    >
    > Wrong. The controversy ended years ago, The rules of engagement are
    > crystal
    > clear. Stratum 1 servers should be avoided by clients wherever possible.


    I'll correct that. I did find at least one set of StratumOne servers
    (those belonging to nist.gov) that do allow contact by end clients. They
    even explain how to do it on their website.

    > Still, why can't HP maintain its own NTP servers for its own products?


    HP did host a StratumOne server under the hp.com domain at one time, but it
    went offline for some reason. With the way that companies get purchased,
    merged, re-organized, etc., it's probably a better policy to just use the
    pool.ntp.org servers.

    I'll get this fixed in the next firmware release.

    -Lee Devlin
    http://www.k0lee.com




  6. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    On 2006-12-14, Marc Brett wrote:

    > The Fukuoka University server is Stratum 2, and it's listed as "open
    > access"


    The Fukuoka University S2 servers may be listed as Open Access, but
    their defined service area is Japan/Pacific area. Individuals outside of
    the defined service area should not be using these servers.

    >in the udel lists.


    Maintenance of Dr. Mills' Public Time Server lists was transferred to the
    NTP Public Services Project in September 2004.

    If you are using a list in Dr. Mills' www.eecis.udel.edu web-space you
    should be aware that those lists are no longer maintained.

    Please use the following URLs to access the lists:

    Stratum 1
    http://www.ntp.org/s1

    Stratum 2
    http://www.ntp.org/s2

    The home-page for the Public Time Server lists, which includes
    information such as the Rules of Engagement, is:

    http://www.ntp.org/servers

    --
    Steve Kostecke
    NTP Public Services Project - http://ntp.isc.org/

  7. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    Thanks, Lee, for sticking your head above the parapet on this issue.

    On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:09:22 GMT, "Lee Devlin"
    wrote:

    >HP did host a StratumOne server under the hp.com domain at one time, but it
    >went offline for some reason. With the way that companies get purchased,
    >merged, re-organized, etc., it's probably a better policy to just use the
    >pool.ntp.org servers.


    The cynic in me believes the bean counters saw an opportunity to outsource
    something for zero cost.

    >I'll get this fixed in the next firmware release.


    If the firmware is to be revised....

    "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" wrote in
    message news:87r6v41a0z.fsf@arbol.wsrcc.com...
    > The unit appears to ignore the
    > DHCP-supplied ntp servers I give it


    ....so get the DHCP client to recognize the system administrator's choice of ntp
    servers. Is there a good reason to ignore such a request?

    Your FAQ on the issue should recommend that users' first choice of NTP servers
    be from their organization, then their ISP, and the last choice be the public
    stratum 2 servers.


  8. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    According to the ntp.isc.org server list, there are two Stratum One time
    servers at the HP facility in Palo Alto, CA, although they are not hosted
    under the hp.com domain, they are under the dec.com domain.

    http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/UsnoPaXDecCom
    http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/ClepsydraDecCom

    Dennis

    "Marc Brett" wrote in message
    news:4b12o2l7vfn8heheo7ta4a1516hqscjvc5@4ax.com...
    > On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:10:57 GMT, "Lee Devlin"
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I've written up
    >>an entry in the FAQ for anyone who would like to change the default IP
    >>addresses to some other values:
    >>
    >>http://www.k0lee.com/hpmediavault#ntp
    >>
    >>Lee Devlin
    >>http://www.k0lee.com
    >>
    >>
    >>"Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" wrote in
    >>> I thought companies agreed to stop doing this nonsense years ago.

    >
    > From the FAQ:
    >
    > "There is a lot of controversy about accessing public NTP StratumOne
    > servers by
    > client devices."
    >
    > Wrong. The controversy ended years ago, The rules of engagement are
    > crystal
    > clear. Stratum 1 servers should be avoided by clients wherever possible.
    >
    > The USNO rules of engagement:
    >
    > "We request that you allow no more than three of your clients to poll our
    > servers directly. Organizations with many clients should obtain time from
    > local
    > stratum 2 servers. ISPs should configure routers or firewalls to serve as
    > stratum 2 servers to the ISP network."
    >
    > USNO's tick & tock (used by Media Vaults), and ntp2 are all stratum 1
    > machines
    > in Washington, DC.
    >
    > "Note, the following three NTP servers are part of an IP load-balanced
    > farm. You
    > should choose only ONE of these three Washington, DC servers "
    >
    > The Fukuoka University server is Stratum 2, and it's listed as "open
    > access" in
    > the udel lists.
    >
    >
    > Full marks to HP, though, for allowing the NTP server list to be
    > configurable.
    >
    > Still, why can't HP maintain its own NTP servers for its own products?
    >




  9. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    Lee Devlin schrieb:
    > "Marc Brett" wrote in message >>
    >>> "Wolfgang S. Rupprecht" wrote in
    >>>> I thought companies agreed to stop doing this nonsense years ago.

    >> From the FAQ:
    >>
    >> "There is a lot of controversy about accessing public NTP StratumOne
    >> servers by
    >> client devices."
    >>
    >> Wrong. The controversy ended years ago, The rules of engagement are
    >> crystal
    >> clear. Stratum 1 servers should be avoided by clients wherever possible.

    >
    > I'll correct that. I did find at least one set of StratumOne servers
    > (those belonging to nist.gov) that do allow contact by end clients. They
    > even explain how to do it on their website.
    >
    >> Still, why can't HP maintain its own NTP servers for its own products?

    >
    > HP did host a StratumOne server under the hp.com domain at one time, but it
    > went offline for some reason. With the way that companies get purchased,
    > merged, re-organized, etc., it's probably a better policy to just use the
    > pool.ntp.org servers.
    >

    It would be nice if HP in this case would add a few servers to the pool,
    maybe in regions which are not covered very well in the pool.

    > I'll get this fixed in the next firmware release.


    How often is this product polling its time servers? And, why is there no
    way to change the NTP server in your configuration? I guess this box
    already comes with a web based setup UI and it would not be a big deal
    to add a field "NTP time source to be used for time synchronization" in
    the next firmware release.

    > -Lee Devlin
    > http://www.k0lee.com


    Best regards,
    Heiko



    >
    >
    >


  10. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    "Heiko Gerstung" wrote in message
    news:4581a1be$0$49200

    > How often is this product polling its time servers? And, why is there no
    > way to change the NTP server in your configuration? I guess this box
    > already comes with a web based setup UI and it would not be a big deal to
    > add a field "NTP time source to be used for time synchronization" in the
    > next firmware release.


    The product polls the server once every 3 days. There is a field for an end
    user to insert up to three time servers, but they require an IP address
    instead of a DNS name, a shortcoming of the reference design upon which the
    software was built. The default values in there were for StratumOne servers
    and that needs to be changed.
    I'm currently experimenting with a solution that would allow DNS names to go
    into that field instead of hard coded IP addresses.

    -Lee Devlin
    http://www.k0lee.com



  11. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    "Dennis Hilberg Jr" wrote in message
    news:_vudneloL_0TAhzYnZ2dnUVZ_v63nZ2d@comcast.com. ..
    > According to the ntp.isc.org server list, there are two Stratum One time
    > servers at the HP facility in Palo Alto, CA, although they are not hosted
    > under the hp.com domain, they are under the dec.com domain.
    >
    > http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/UsnoPaXDecCom
    > http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/ClepsydraDecCom


    Yes, I found those servers yesterday while investigating this issue.
    However, they are StratumOne servers and so even though HP pays for them, it
    is against the 'Rules of Engagement' for even HP's end clients to use them.
    I guess one way to fix the issue would be to move them into the StratumTwo
    pool, but I don't want to suggest that because that would remove them from
    the StratumOne pool, which is probably a more critical service to the
    community in the overall scheme of things.


    -Lee Devlin
    http://www.k0lee.com



  12. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's


    "Lee Devlin" wrote in message
    news:BGigh.3636$t_2.1993@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > "Dennis Hilberg Jr" wrote in message
    > news:_vudneloL_0TAhzYnZ2dnUVZ_v63nZ2d@comcast.com. ..
    > > According to the ntp.isc.org server list, there are two Stratum One time
    > > servers at the HP facility in Palo Alto, CA, although they are not

    hosted
    > > under the hp.com domain, they are under the dec.com domain.
    > >
    > > http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/UsnoPaXDecCom
    > > http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/ClepsydraDecCom

    >
    > Yes, I found those servers yesterday while investigating this issue.
    > However, they are StratumOne servers and so even though HP pays for them,

    it
    > is against the 'Rules of Engagement' for even HP's end clients to use

    them.
    > I guess one way to fix the issue would be to move them into the StratumTwo
    > pool, but I don't want to suggest that because that would remove them from


    Either that or change the Rules of Engagement so that at least HP's end
    clients can use them--which, as paying customers, they should have the right
    to do regardless of the RoE.


    Brian Garrett



  13. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's


    >Please use the following URLs to access the lists:
    >
    >Stratum 1
    > http://www.ntp.org/s1
    >
    >Stratum 2
    > http://www.ntp.org/s2


    I think there was a report after the UWisc mess describing
    what to (not) do if you needed time on a network connected
    embedded system. Anybody got a URL? I took a quick scan but
    didn't find it.

    --
    These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.


  14. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    On 2006-12-14, Brian Garrett wrote:

    > Either that or change the Rules of Engagement so that at least HP's
    > end clients can use them--which, as paying customers, they should have
    > the right to do regardless of the RoE.


    The Rules of Engagement are for Public Time Servers.

    If HP, or any other company, wishes to maintain a flock of S-1 time
    servers for use by their (end user) products, that's an entirely
    different matter.

    --
    Steve Kostecke
    NTP Public Services Project - http://ntp.isc.org/

  15. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    Brian Garrett wrote:

    > "Lee Devlin" wrote in message
    > news:BGigh.3636$t_2.1993@news.cpqcorp.net...
    >
    >>"Dennis Hilberg Jr" wrote in message
    >>news:_vudneloL_0TAhzYnZ2dnUVZ_v63nZ2d@comcast.com. ..
    >>
    >>>According to the ntp.isc.org server list, there are two Stratum One time
    >>>servers at the HP facility in Palo Alto, CA, although they are not

    >
    > hosted
    >
    >>>under the hp.com domain, they are under the dec.com domain.
    >>>
    >>>http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/UsnoPaXDecCom
    >>>http://ntp.isc.org/bin/view/Servers/ClepsydraDecCom

    >>
    >>Yes, I found those servers yesterday while investigating this issue.
    >>However, they are StratumOne servers and so even though HP pays for them,

    >
    > it
    >
    >>is against the 'Rules of Engagement' for even HP's end clients to use

    >
    > them.
    >
    >>I guess one way to fix the issue would be to move them into the StratumTwo
    >>pool, but I don't want to suggest that because that would remove them from

    >


    I don't think the rules need fixing. The product in question is
    intended to act as a server. If it is serving a reasonable number of
    clients it qualifies to use stratum 1 servers.

    Those who configure these boxes (or any NTP server or client) should
    keep in mind that stratum is not a measure of quality and that the
    quality of the network connection between server and client is a lot
    more important to good timekeeping than the stratum of the server. One
    of the stratum 2 servers I use outperforms anything else I've tried on
    the internet, including stratum 1 servers; only my own stratum 1 (GPS)
    server keeps better time.


  16. Re: HP media vault and stratum-1's

    On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:07:13 -0600, hal-usenet@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net
    (Hal Murray) wrote:

    >
    >>Please use the following URLs to access the lists:
    >>
    >>Stratum 1
    >> http://www.ntp.org/s1
    >>
    >>Stratum 2
    >> http://www.ntp.org/s2

    >
    >I think there was a report after the UWisc mess describing
    >what to (not) do if you needed time on a network connected
    >embedded system. Anybody got a URL? I took a quick scan but
    >didn't find it.


    Is this it?

    http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/netgear-sntp/

    There have been other incidents:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTP_vandalism

    There is a chapter On Being a Good Network Citizen, and one on Best Practices,
    in RFC 4330

    http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4330


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