list posts in UTF-8 - NTP

This is a discussion on list posts in UTF-8 - NTP ; On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote: > That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second). Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted my message ...

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  1. list posts in UTF-8

    On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote:

    > That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second).


    Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF
    standard for more than a decade. And my message does, in fact, appear
    correct with UTF-8 characters such as "l" (Greek Small Letter Mu,
    Unicode 03BC) in the list archives at:
    https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ques...er/020235.html

    However, all replies to my message were in 7-bit charset="us-ascii",
    which of course mangles the non-ASCII chasracters.

    So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant, or is it
    the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list
    itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.

    Regards,
    --
    RPM

  2. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Ryan Malayter wrote:
    > On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote:
    >
    >> That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second).

    >
    > Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    > my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF
    > standard for more than a decade. And my message does, in fact, appear
    > correct with UTF-8 characters such as "l" (Greek Small Letter Mu,
    > Unicode 03BC) in the list archives at:
    > https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ques...er/020235.html
    >
    > However, all replies to my message were in 7-bit charset="us-ascii",
    > which of course mangles the non-ASCII chasracters.
    >
    > So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant, or is it
    > the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list
    > itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    > to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.
    >
    > Regards,


    This is usenet, not a mailing list.


    --
    Jim Pennino

    Remove .spam.sux to reply.

  3. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
    > Ryan Malayter wrote:
    >> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote:
    >>
    >>> That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second).

    >> Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    >> my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF
    >> standard for more than a decade. And my message does, in fact, appear
    >> correct with UTF-8 characters such as "l" (Greek Small Letter Mu,
    >> Unicode 03BC) in the list archives at:
    >> https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ques...er/020235.html
    >>
    >> However, all replies to my message were in 7-bit charset="us-ascii",
    >> which of course mangles the non-ASCII chasracters.
    >>
    >> So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant, or is it
    >> the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list
    >> itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    >> to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.
    >>
    >> Regards,

    >
    > This is usenet, not a mailing list.
    >
    >


    There IS a mailing list for those who prefer mail to news or for those
    who don't have access to news. Comcast has announced that it will no
    longer offer access to net news effective 28 October 2008.

  4. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
    >> Ryan Malayter wrote:
    >>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second).
    >>> Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    >>> my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF
    >>> standard for more than a decade. And my message does, in fact, appear
    >>> correct with UTF-8 characters such as "l" (Greek Small Letter Mu,
    >>> Unicode 03BC) in the list archives at:
    >>> https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ques...er/020235.html
    >>>
    >>> However, all replies to my message were in 7-bit charset="us-ascii",
    >>> which of course mangles the non-ASCII chasracters.
    >>>
    >>> So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant, or is it
    >>> the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list
    >>> itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    >>> to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.
    >>>
    >>> Regards,

    >>
    >> This is usenet, not a mailing list.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > There IS a mailing list for those who prefer mail to news or for those
    > who don't have access to news. Comcast has announced that it will no
    > longer offer access to net news effective 28 October 2008.


    Yeah, there are lots of groups with a mail gateway.

    That doesn't change the fact the base is a usenet news group.


    --
    Jim Pennino

    Remove .spam.sux to reply.

  5. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
    >>> Ryan Malayter wrote:
    >>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second).
    >>>> Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    >>>> my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF
    >>>> standard for more than a decade. And my message does, in fact, appear
    >>>> correct with UTF-8 characters such as "l" (Greek Small Letter Mu,
    >>>> Unicode 03BC) in the list archives at:
    >>>> https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ques...er/020235.html
    >>>>
    >>>> However, all replies to my message were in 7-bit charset="us-ascii",
    >>>> which of course mangles the non-ASCII chasracters.
    >>>>
    >>>> So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant, or is it
    >>>> the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list
    >>>> itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    >>>> to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.
    >>>>
    >>>> Regards,
    >>> This is usenet, not a mailing list.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> There IS a mailing list for those who prefer mail to news or for those
    >> who don't have access to news. Comcast has announced that it will no
    >> longer offer access to net news effective 28 October 2008.

    >
    > Yeah, there are lots of groups with a mail gateway.
    >
    > That doesn't change the fact the base is a usenet news group.
    >
    >

    Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

  6. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
    >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
    >>>> Ryan Malayter wrote:
    >>>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second).
    >>>>> Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    >>>>> my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF
    >>>>> standard for more than a decade. And my message does, in fact, appear
    >>>>> correct with UTF-8 characters such as "l" (Greek Small Letter Mu,
    >>>>> Unicode 03BC) in the list archives at:
    >>>>> https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ques...er/020235.html
    >>>>>
    >>>>> However, all replies to my message were in 7-bit charset="us-ascii",
    >>>>> which of course mangles the non-ASCII chasracters.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant, or is it
    >>>>> the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list
    >>>>> itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    >>>>> to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Regards,
    >>>> This is usenet, not a mailing list.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> There IS a mailing list for those who prefer mail to news or for those
    >>> who don't have access to news. Comcast has announced that it will no
    >>> longer offer access to net news effective 28 October 2008.

    >>
    >> Yeah, there are lots of groups with a mail gateway.
    >>
    >> That doesn't change the fact the base is a usenet news group.
    >>
    >>

    > Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


    In the case of comp.protocols.time.ntp, AIR the mailing list came first.

    But that's irrelevant.


    --
    Jim Pennino

    Remove .spam.sux to reply.

  7. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    []
    > There IS a mailing list for those who prefer mail to news or for those
    > who don't have access to news. Comcast has announced that it will no
    > longer offer access to net news effective 28 October 2008.


    There are free text-only news providers out there, and low-cost
    subscription ones. Just because one ISP drops news servers it shouldn't
    be a problem for anyone.

    BTW: I consider this a Usenet newsgroup, with an add-on mailing list, but
    that's probably just because it's how I started. Is there any reason why
    NNTP per-se should mangle non-ASCII characters? I always write ASCII "u"
    rather than the Greek "mu", but that's mainly laziness!

    Cheers,
    David



  8. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    David J Taylor wrote:
    >
    > There are free text-only news providers out there, and low-cost
    > subscription ones. Just because one ISP drops news servers it shouldn't
    > be a problem for anyone.


    Quite. A lot of people also use Google groups.

    >
    > BTW: I consider this a Usenet newsgroup, with an add-on mailing list, but
    > that's probably just because it's how I started. Is there any reason why


    It's also my understanding that the newsgroup came first.

    > NNTP per-se should mangle non-ASCII characters? I always write ASCII "u"
    > rather than the Greek "mu", but that's mainly laziness!


    NNTP is just one transport used for USENET, although I'm not actually
    aware of any transports still in use that are not eight bit clean for
    non-control characters.


  9. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Ryan Malayter wrote:
    >
    > Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    > my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF


    On the USENET side, you had these headers, which are mutually incompatible:

    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    > So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant, or is it
    > the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list


    The fault is arising in the gateway or your MUA.

    > itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    > to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.


    Strictly speaking, there is no standard that permits non-ASCII material
    on USENET, although the de facto position is that MIME is permitted.
    There are still some important USENET user agents that are not MIME
    aware and USENET can get transported over non-TCP channels.

  10. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    >Quite. A lot of people also use Google groups.

    A lot of people ignore/drop everything from google-groupes
    because they emit too much spam.

    --
    These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.


  11. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Hi there


    David Woolley wrote:



    > Strictly speaking, there is no standard that permits non-ASCII material
    > on USENET, although the de facto position is that MIME is permitted.
    > There are still some important USENET user agents that are not MIME
    > aware and USENET can get transported over non-TCP channels.


    From RFC 3977;
    Although the protocol specification in this document is largely
    compatible with the version specified in RFC 977 [RFC977], a number
    of changes are summarised in Appendix D. In particular:

    o the default character set is changed from US-ASCII [ANSI1986] to
    UTF-8 [RFC3629] (note that US-ASCII is a subset of UTF-8);

    That's transport, not content.
    For content the RFC refers to MIME.


    Regards,
    Rob

  12. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > []
    >> There IS a mailing list for those who prefer mail to news or for those
    >> who don't have access to news. Comcast has announced that it will no
    >> longer offer access to net news effective 28 October 2008.

    >
    > There are free text-only news providers out there, and low-cost
    > subscription ones. Just because one ISP drops news servers it shouldn't
    > be a problem for anyone.
    >
    > BTW: I consider this a Usenet newsgroup, with an add-on mailing list, but
    > that's probably just because it's how I started. Is there any reason why
    > NNTP per-se should mangle non-ASCII characters? I always write ASCII "u"
    > rather than the Greek "mu", but that's mainly laziness!


    Thank you. I REALLY didn't want to have to learn to read Greek! And
    who knows how the computer would render Greek characters if you did send
    them!!

  13. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Hi there


    Ryan Malayter wrote:

    > On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Unruh wrote:
    >
    >> That may be what you expect, but you can get it 1usec (1 micro second).

    >
    > Is there something wrong with the mail gateway and Unicode? I posted
    > my message as text/plain with charset=UTF-8, which has been an IETF
    > standard for more than a decade. And my message does, in fact, appear
    > correct with UTF-8 characters such as "l"


    I see a 'l' (006C) here.

    > (Greek Small Letter Mu,
    > Unicode 03BC) in the list archives at:
    > https://lists.ntp.org/pipermail/ques...er/020235.html


    Charsets contradict;
    'META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"'
    The transport charset is ISO-8859-1. Transport overrules content.
    However, non ascii is encoded as '&#ddd;', where 'ddd' is de decimal
    Unicode value, so non ascii is legible anyway.

    > However, all replies to my message were in 7-bit charset="us-ascii",
    > which of course mangles the non-ASCII chasracters.
    >
    > So is it the pipermail gateway that is not Unicode compliant,


    Does it just convert mail to news? On news to mail as well?
    So what does this look like?
    Euro: €
    mu: µ
    z-caron: ž

    > or is it
    > the MUAs of the respondents that is at fault? If it is the list
    > itself... well, isn't it absurd to restrict content of a mailing list
    > to 7-bit us-ascii? It is 2008, not 1988.


    Post 1999 software should support UTF-8.


    Regards,
    Rob

  14. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    On 2008-10-27, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > [---=| Quote block shrinked by t-prot: 26 lines snipped |=---]
    >>>> There IS a mailing list for those who prefer mail to news or for those
    >>>> who don't have access to news. Comcast has announced that it will no
    >>>> longer offer access to net news effective 28 October 2008.
    >>>
    >>> Yeah, there are lots of groups with a mail gateway.
    >>>
    >>> That doesn't change the fact the base is a usenet news group.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    >
    > In the case of comp.protocols.time.ntp, AIR the mailing list came first.


    The news-group pre-dates the mailing list by many, many, years.

    --
    Steve Kostecke
    NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

  15. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Richard B. Gilbert
    wrote:
    > Thank you. I REALLY didn't want to have to learn to read Greek! And
    > who knows how the computer would render Greek characters if you did send
    > them!!


    There is a 99.9% chance OS supports Unicode, and most likely so do
    your fonts. The computer should render them perfectly.

    I think the issue is with the mail-to-NNTP gateway, which seems to add
    a 7-bit header to an 8-bit UTF-8 message, which is downright silly in
    2008.

    This is a technical forum. Mathematical and other symbols which are
    very useful in such a setting. (N<, N#, B2, b, etc.) . UTF-8 supports
    these well.

    UTF-8 is supported by all modern MUAs, and all modern MTAs, and should
    be supported by all news readers and servers as well.

    UTF-8 also allows the names of many forum members to be displayed
    properly, which is certainly common courtesy and not possible with
    US-ASCII. There are, for example, lots of Germanic and Scandinavian
    names amongst the participants, and it appears at least some of those
    names would properly include umlauts (such as C<).

    Finally, UTF-8 is at most a few percent larger than US-ASCII for
    English text (only non-ASCII characters are multi-byte), so that is
    not really a concern.

    Is this just a setting that could to be changed on the email-to-NNTP gateway?
    --
    RPM

  16. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Rob van der Putten wrote:
    []
    > Does it just convert mail to news? On news to mail as well?
    > So what does this look like?
    > Euro: ?
    > mu:
    > z-caron: z

    []
    > Regards,
    > Rob


    Rob,

    Those characters display correctly on my NNTP feed from my ISP, using
    Microsoft Outlook Express for news-reading.

    Cheers,
    David



  17. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:07 AM, Rob van der Putten wrote:
    > Does it just convert mail to news? On news to mail as well?
    > So what does this look like?
    > Euro:
    > mu: 5
    > z-caron: 


    Interesting. The non-ASCII symbols in your message appeared just fine
    to me, but I assume that is because we are both using the email list.

    I received your message encoded as:
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

    > Post 1999 software should support UTF-8.


    I am in total agreement, even though I am an "ugly American."

    --
    RPM

  18. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Hi there


    David J Taylor wrote:

    > Those characters display correctly on my NNTP feed from my ISP, using
    > Microsoft Outlook Express for news-reading.


    You convert the text without stating the charset used, which makes non
    ascii unreadable.
    This is probably an Outlook bug.


    Regards,
    Rob

  19. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Hi there


    Ryan Malayter wrote:

    > Interesting. The non-ASCII symbols in your message appeared just fine
    > to me,


    But your post doesn't;
    The Content-type is text/plain; charset="windows-1252". The content
    encoding is 7bit.
    Something is seriously broken.

    > but I assume that is because we are both using the email list.


    I'm not. I posted via news.xs4all.nl

    > I received your message encoded as:
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
    > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64


    The original Content-Transfer-Encoding is 8 bit.

    > I am in total agreement, even though I am an "ugly American."


    It's a standard. I would have to look up which one.


    Regards,
    Rob

  20. Re: list posts in UTF-8

    Rob van der Putten wrote:
    > Hi there
    >
    >
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >
    >> Those characters display correctly on my NNTP feed from my ISP, using
    >> Microsoft Outlook Express for news-reading.

    >
    > You convert the text without stating the charset used, which makes non
    > ascii unreadable.
    > This is probably an Outlook bug.
    >
    >
    > Regards,
    > Rob


    Rob,

    I'm using Microsoft Outlook Express, not Outlook. They are different
    products.

    I didn't knowingly "convert" the text, and my own reply to you appeared
    with the correct characters displaying. At least, it did on my own ISP's
    news server! Whether it got corrupted on its way to you I don't know.
    Let me see what Google Groups shows. Can't find your or my post there
    right now.

    Your message shows:
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    My message shows:
    X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response

    Whether that's my newsreader or my ISP I don't know. My program's Send
    settings include an option for UUencode or MIME, and it's currently set yo
    UUencode, if that helps.

    Cheers,
    David



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