TCP without IP - Networking

This is a discussion on TCP without IP - Networking ; Hi, I have read in some books as follows :- Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still verify and sequence that data can ...

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  1. TCP without IP

    Hi,

    I have read in some books as follows :-

    Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    verify and sequence that data

    can any one give examples for this ?

  2. Re: TCP without IP

    Am Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:31:17 -0700 schrieb aarklon:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I have read in some books as follows :-
    >
    > Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    > besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    > verify and sequence that data
    >
    > can any one give examples for this ?


    you would need a protocoll which can route and address packets, but an
    example...

  3. Re: TCP without IP

    Burkhard Ott wrote:
    > Am Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:31:17 -0700 schrieb aarklon:
    >
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I have read in some books as follows :-
    >>
    >> Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    >> besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    >> verify and sequence that data
    >>
    >> can any one give examples for this ?

    >
    > you would need a protocoll which can route and address packets, but an
    > example...

    TCP over IPX ?

  4. Re: TCP without IP

    aarklon wrote:

    > Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    > besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    > verify and sequence that data
    >
    > can any one give examples for this ?


    Here's a list of possible Ethernet payloads.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethertype
    http://www.iana.org/assignments/ethernet-numbers

    I don't know whether anybody uses TCP over something other than IPv4
    and IPv6.

  5. Re: TCP without IP

    On Aug 13, 2:31*am, aark...@gmail.com wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have read in some books as follows :-
    >
    > Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    > besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    > verify and sequence that data
    >
    > can any one give examples for this ?


    It's not clear what you're asking. What are you asking?

    If you're asking for examples of TCP actually being used with IP, I
    doubt you'll find any. This is a theoretical possibility, but not one
    that there would seem to be any reason to actually do.

    The closest to an example I can think of is TCP-over-UDP
    implementations that are used in special cases where TCP behavior is
    wanted but TCP is not usable (because of firewalls or NAT). TCP-over-
    UDP-over-STUN, for example.

    DS

  6. Re: TCP without IP

    Am Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:06:53 -0700 schrieb David Schwartz:
    > The closest to an example I can think of is TCP-over-UDP
    > implementations that are used in special cases where TCP behavior is
    > wanted but TCP is not usable (because of firewalls or NAT). TCP-over-
    > UDP-over-STUN, for example.
    >
    > DS


    But you need IP for that either and you loose the advantages of TCP.

  7. Re: TCP without IP

    On Aug 13, 11:38*pm, Burkhard Ott wrote:

    > Am Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:06:53 -0700 schrieb David Schwartz:


    > > The closest to an example I can think of is TCP-over-UDP
    > > implementations that are used in special cases where TCP behavior is
    > > wanted but TCP is not usable (because of firewalls or NAT). TCP-over-
    > > UDP-over-STUN, for example.


    > But you need IP for that either and you loose the advantages of TCP.


    You do need IP, but the TCP is not layered (directly) over IP. As for
    loosing the advantages, no, you don't. You can keep all of the
    advantages of TCP this way. (Unless you know of some advantage I'm not
    thinking of.) You can still implement it in kernel space, you can
    still have slow start, reordering, duplicate rejection, and so on. You
    can implement it TCP-over-UDP with all of TCP's features.

    DS

  8. Re: TCP without IP

    Burkhard Ott writes:

    > Am Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:06:53 -0700 schrieb David Schwartz:
    >> The closest to an example I can think of is TCP-over-UDP
    >> implementations that are used in special cases where TCP behavior is
    >> wanted but TCP is not usable (because of firewalls or NAT). TCP-over-
    >> UDP-over-STUN, for example.
    >>
    >> DS

    >
    > But you need IP for that either and you loose the advantages of TCP.


    Yes, but the OP asked about a theoretical implemention without IP.
    Given that, it makes sense that either (a) there is no routing, or (b)
    the user has to do their own routing using somethingother than IP.




  9. Re: TCP without IP

    David Schwartz writes:

    > You do need IP, but the TCP is not layered (directly) over IP. As for
    > loosing the advantages, no, you don't. You can keep all of the
    > advantages of TCP this way. (Unless you know of some advantage I'm not
    > thinking of.) You can still implement it in kernel space, you can
    > still have slow start, reordering, duplicate rejection, and so on. You
    > can implement it TCP-over-UDP with all of TCP's features.


    UDP uses IP for routing. So instead of
    TCP -> IP
    you have
    TCP -> UDP -> IP
    So technically it's not IP directly underneath. It's just buried a layer lower.

    But it is an example of TCP over "something other than IP."
    I hope the OP finds this interesting. I do. Thanks.



  10. Re: TCP without IP

    aarklon@gmail.com wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I have read in some books as follows :-
    >
    > Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    > besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    > verify and sequence that data
    >
    > can any one give examples for this ?


    There is/was TCP over IPX (see rfc1791). Don't know whether it was actually
    implemented.

    --
    Huibert
    "Okay... really not something I needed to see." --Raven

  11. Re: TCP without IP

    On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.networking, in
    article , Huibert Bol wrote:

    >aarklon@gmail.com wrote:


    >> Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    >> besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    >> verify and sequence that data
    >>
    >> can any one give examples for this ?

    >
    >There is/was TCP over IPX (see rfc1791). Don't know whether it was
    >actually implemented.


    1791 TCP And UDP Over IPX Networks With Fixed Path MTU. T. Sung.
    April 1995. (Format: TXT=22347 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL)

    1792 TCP/IPX Connection Mib Specification. T. Sung. April 1995.
    (Format: TXT=16389 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL)

    Notice the 'Status:' tag, and then look at RFC2026 section 4.2.1

    4.2.1 Experimental

    The "Experimental" designation typically denotes a specification that
    is part of some research or development effort. Such a specification
    is published for the general information of the Internet technical
    community and as an archival record of the work, subject only to
    editorial considerations and to verification that there has been
    adequate coordination with the standards process (see below). An
    Experimental specification may be the output of an organized Internet
    research effort (e.g., a Research Group of the IRTF), an IETF Working
    Group, or it may be an individual contribution.

    Tae Sung was working for Novell in San Jose, CA (.us) and this seems
    to have been a dead end - recall that Novell NetWare was an major
    networking O/S, but it was pretty well locked to IPX. I know you
    could get it to acknowledge the existence of IP and if you loaded the
    right NLMs on the server, you could get it to _route_ IP (and Appletalk
    Phase I), but I think it was some time later (after NetWare 4.1) before
    they bit the bullet and actually started _running_ IP (and even when
    they did, the basic directory services remained IPX).

    Old guy

  12. Re: TCP without IP

    Do you mean un numbered ip?
    0.0.0.0?

    wrote in message
    news:7d3e7523-a58b-4c13-8e1a-7315b7521794@v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have read in some books as follows :-
    >
    > Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    > besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    > verify and sequence that data
    >
    > can any one give examples for this ?




  13. Re: TCP without IP

    "Bill" writes:

    > wrote in message
    > news:7d3e7523-a58b-4c13-8e1a-7315b7521794@v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I have read in some books as follows :-
    >>
    >> Theoretically, you could have TCP without IP, some other n/w mechanism
    >> besides IP could deliver the data to an address, and TCP could still
    >> verify and sequence that data
    >>
    >> can any one give examples for this ?


    > Do you mean un numbered ip?
    > 0.0.0.0?


    I would assume he meant "using some other protocol completely".

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