There has been a significant increase in spam in the mozilla.*
newsgroups lately. Some low-traffic groups, like mozilla.dev.tech.xslt,
are mostly spam these days.

The last time spam got out of hand, community members stopped using the
newsgroups en masse, causing significant disruption to the flow of
community discussion, and it took a long time (plus a new newsgroup
provider and a newsgroup reorg) to get folks back to them.

Can something be done to combat this latest wave?

-myk

(posted to mozilla.general because I don't see any other applicable
newsgroup for issues like this, but please redirect as appropriate)

On 08/22/2008 12:00 PM, Myk Melez sent:
>
> There has been a significant increase in spam in the mozilla.*
> newsgroups lately. Some low-traffic groups, like mozilla.dev.tech.xslt,
> are mostly spam these days.
>
> The last time spam got out of hand, community members stopped using the
> newsgroups en masse, causing significant disruption to the flow of
> community discussion, and it took a long time (plus a new newsgroup
> provider and a newsgroup reorg) to get folks back to them.
>
> Can something be done to combat this latest wave?
>
> -myk
>
> (posted to mozilla.general because I don't see any other applicable
> newsgroup for issues like this, but please redirect as appropriate)

Hello myk:

Without really thinking this through, all I can think of is using a
moderator. I wonder if anyone has ever tried writing an application
to lighten the load on a human moderator? Otherwise it takes the
efforts of very dedicated folks to keep it going.

My $0.02USD...

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

1PW wrote:
> On 08/22/2008 12:00 PM, Myk Melez sent:
>> There has been a significant increase in spam in the mozilla.*
>> newsgroups lately. Some low-traffic groups, like mozilla.dev.tech.xslt,
>> are mostly spam these days.
>>
>> The last time spam got out of hand, community members stopped using the
>> newsgroups en masse, causing significant disruption to the flow of
>> community discussion, and it took a long time (plus a new newsgroup
>> provider and a newsgroup reorg) to get folks back to them.
>>
>> Can something be done to combat this latest wave?
>>
>> -myk
>>
>> (posted to mozilla.general because I don't see any other applicable
>> newsgroup for issues like this, but please redirect as appropriate)
>
> Hello myk:
>
> Without really thinking this through, all I can think of is using a
> moderator. I wonder if anyone has ever tried writing an application
> to lighten the load on a human moderator? Otherwise it takes the
> efforts of very dedicated folks to keep it going.
>
> My $0.02USD...

Well, my 2cents is that using a moderator is the worst of all choices. I
present the destructive result of MTMM as an example; result will be
no spam and no group attendees.

My suggestion is for Mozilla to get their own server and have their own
control (without a moderator) just as it used to be (news and secnews).

--
Gus

On 08/22/2008 12:59 PM, Gus Richter sent:

Snip, snip...

>
> Well, my 2cents is that using a moderator is the worst of all choices. I
> present the destructive result of MTMM as an example; result will be no
> spam and no group attendees.
>
> My suggestion is for Mozilla to get their own server and have their own
> control (without a moderator) just as it used to be (news and secnews).
>

Hello Gus:

Perhaps a group of folks who have volunteered as moderators fits better?
I'm too ill equipped to weigh in on this. What is MTMM? I have traced
the origins of our postings back to a mozilla.org server. Is that what
you meant? When you say you'd like to see Mozilla have their own
control, how would that differ from being without a moderator? How did
news and secnews work that made it better?

Again I'm writing with great ignorance. I love this dialog! Please do
speak your mind Gus.

Respectfully - Thank you kindly sir.

Pete

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:00:58 -0700, Myk Melez wrote:

> Can something be done to combat this latest wave?

Why don't they just use cancel bots? They're not subjective and do as
they're told. (If I'm not mistaken there are some cancel bots active in
the nl.* hierarchy.)

--
s|b

On 08/22/2008 03:17 PM, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo sent:

Snip, snip...

>
> Mozilla does have 3 moderators. I call them the Mozilla Bullies. The
> head bully is one of the most hated individuals within these groups.
> There used to be 4 moderators, but one of them quit because of the
> stupid tatics the Head Bully would play.
>

Hello Peter:

What were some of the worst things the moderator did?

With respect.

Pete

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

1PW wrote:
> On 08/22/2008 12:00 PM, Myk Melez sent:
>> There has been a significant increase in spam in the mozilla.*
>> newsgroups lately. Some low-traffic groups, like mozilla.dev.tech.xslt,
>> are mostly spam these days.
>>
>> The last time spam got out of hand, community members stopped using the
>> newsgroups en masse, causing significant disruption to the flow of
>> community discussion, and it took a long time (plus a new newsgroup
>> provider and a newsgroup reorg) to get folks back to them.
>>
>> Can something be done to combat this latest wave?
>>
>> -myk
>>
>> (posted to mozilla.general because I don't see any other applicable
>> newsgroup for issues like this, but please redirect as appropriate)
>
> Hello myk:
>
> Without really thinking this through, all I can think of is using a
> moderator. I wonder if anyone has ever tried writing an application
> to lighten the load on a human moderator? Otherwise it takes the
> efforts of very dedicated folks to keep it going.
>
> My $0.02USD...
>

Mozilla does have 3 moderators. I call them the
Mozilla Bullies. The head bully is one of the most
hated individuals within these groups. There used to
be 4 moderators, but one of them quit because of the
stupid tatics the Head Bully would play.

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email
help!!!! Emails to me may become public

Notice: This posting is protected under the Free Speech
Laws, which applies everywhere in the FREE world,
except for some strange reason, not to the mozilla.org
newsgroup servers, where your posting may get you banned.

Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
http://melaman2.com/cartoons/singles/mp3/p-potamus.mp3
http://www.toonopedia.com/potamus.htm

Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo, 2008/08/22 4:17 PM:
> 1PW wrote:
>> On 08/22/2008 12:00 PM, Myk Melez sent:
>>> There has been a significant increase in spam in the mozilla.*
>>> newsgroups lately. Some low-traffic groups, like
>>> mozilla.dev.tech.xslt,
>>> are mostly spam these days.
>>>
>>> The last time spam got out of hand, community members stopped using the
>>> newsgroups en masse, causing significant disruption to the flow of
>>> community discussion, and it took a long time (plus a new newsgroup
>>> provider and a newsgroup reorg) to get folks back to them.
>>>
>>> Can something be done to combat this latest wave?
>>>
>>> -myk
>>>
>>> (posted to mozilla.general because I don't see any other applicable
>>> newsgroup for issues like this, but please redirect as appropriate)
>>
>> Hello myk:
>>
>> Without really thinking this through, all I can think of is using a
>> moderator. I wonder if anyone has ever tried writing an application
>> to lighten the load on a human moderator? Otherwise it takes the
>> efforts of very dedicated folks to keep it going.
>>
>> My $0.02USD...
>>
>
> Mozilla does have 3 moderators. I call them the Mozilla Bullies. The
> head bully is one of the most hated individuals within these groups.
> There used to be 4 moderators, but one of them quit because of the
> stupid tatics the Head Bully would play.

They are only hated by a few malcontents who continually refuse to play
by the newsgroups rules.

On 08/22/2008 03:13 PM, s|b sent:
> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:00:58 -0700, Myk Melez wrote:
>
>> Can something be done to combat this latest wave?
>
> Why don't they just use cancel bots? They're not subjective and do as
> they're told. (If I'm not mistaken there are some cancel bots active in
> the nl.* hierarchy.)
>

Hello s|b:

The more I read, the more interesting this becomes! Would the use of
cancel bots still work for offensive posts of a "one-time" nature
where the poster individually authored each post? It also seems that
the offensive posters change their identities frequently, and their
message headers reveal little.

I just trolled with a Google search and it's fascinating but appears to
be quite difficult to implement.

IMHO it appears as this newsgroup is unmoderated as I'm seeing my own
posts show up within two seconds or so. Please DO expand on what you
think!

Thank you!

Pete

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

On 08/22/2008 03:23 PM, Larry Gusaas sent:

Snip, snip...

>
> They are only hated by a few malcontents who continually refuse to play
> by the newsgroups rules.
>

Hello Larry:

Other than common sense human politeness and civility, has Mozilla ever
posted an FAQ right here? The only thing I notice is that someone will
move a posting thread from one newsgroup to what they think is a more
appropriate newsgroup. I'm on the fence with that.

Please tell me (us) what you've read here. So far, I wouldn't mind
exchanging posts with anyone in this thread. They're *all* intelligent
and devoid of controversy. He said as he crossed his fingers...

Thank you Larry.

Pete

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

1PW wrote:
> On 08/22/2008 03:17 PM, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo sent:
>
> Snip, snip...
>
>> Mozilla does have 3 moderators. I call them the Mozilla Bullies. The
>> head bully is one of the most hated individuals within these groups.
>> There used to be 4 moderators, but one of them quit because of the
>> stupid tatics the Head Bully would play.
>>
>
> Hello Peter:
>
> What were some of the worst things the moderator did?
>
> With respect.
>
> Pete
>

the Mozilla Bully is a little anal-retentive, and the
other two are brown-nosers.

They ban people, without just cause.
They send out threatening posting to individuals.
They remove people's posting without just cause.

These are the three major things. At one point, it was
so bad, that the once very active mtmm group
[mozilla.test.multimedia] newsgroup is all but
abandonded. And serveral helpful posters have left
because of them.

And the Mozilla people couldn't care less what they do,
or how they handle it. As a matter of fact, the head
honcho of the Mozilla server has even lied to the users
of the server.

--
*IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email
help!!!! Emails to me may become public

Notice: This posting is protected under the Free Speech
Laws, which applies everywhere in the FREE world,
except for some strange reason, not to the mozilla.org
newsgroup servers, where your posting may get you banned.

Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon:
http://melaman2.com/cartoons/singles/mp3/p-potamus.mp3
http://www.toonopedia.com/potamus.htm

On 08/22/2008 03:44 PM, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo sent:
> 1PW wrote:
>> On 08/22/2008 03:17 PM, Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo sent:
>>
>> Snip, snip...
>>
>>> Mozilla does have 3 moderators. I call them the Mozilla Bullies. The
>>> head bully is one of the most hated individuals within these groups.
>>> There used to be 4 moderators, but one of them quit because of the
>>> stupid tatics the Head Bully would play.
>>>
>>
>> Hello Peter:
>>
>> What were some of the worst things the moderator did?
>>
>> With respect.
>>
>> Pete
>>
>
> the Mozilla Bully is a little anal-retentive, and the other two are
> brown-nosers.
>
> They ban people, without just cause.
> They send out threatening posting to individuals.
> They remove people's posting without just cause.
>
> These are the three major things. At one point, it was so bad, that the
> once very active mtmm group [mozilla.test.multimedia] newsgroup is all
> but abandoned. And several helpful posters have left because of them.
>
> And the Mozilla people couldn't care less what they do, or how they
> handle it. As a matter of fact, the head honcho of the Mozilla server
> has even lied to the users of the server.
>

Hello Peter:

I suppose this happens within any group of people when one's power has
been elevated, and they have little common sense, and are using the new
authority as a ladder to greater heights within the organization.

Really good supervision/management is so hard to find and train.

How terribly unfortunate for us all. Pity!

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

1PW, 2008/08/22 4:42 PM:
> On 08/22/2008 03:23 PM, Larry Gusaas sent:
>
> Snip, snip...
>
>
>> They are only hated by a few malcontents who continually refuse to play
>> by the newsgroups rules.
>>
>>
>
> Hello Larry:
>
> Other than common sense human politeness and civility, has Mozilla ever
> posted an FAQ right here? The only thing I notice is that someone will
> move a posting thread from one newsgroup to what they think is a more
> appropriate newsgroup. I'm on the fence with that.
>
> Please tell me (us) what you've read here. So far, I wouldn't mind
> exchanging posts with anyone in this thread. They're *all* intelligent
> and devoid of controversy. He said as he crossed his fingers...
>
> Thank you Larry.
>
> Pete
>

See Mozilla Forum Etiquette
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html

Gus Richter wrote:
> 1PW wrote:
>> On 08/22/2008 12:00 PM, Myk Melez sent:
>>> There has been a significant increase in spam in the mozilla.*
>>> newsgroups lately. Some low-traffic groups, like mozilla.dev.tech.xslt,
>>> are mostly spam these days.
>>>
>>> The last time spam got out of hand, community members stopped using the
>>> newsgroups en masse, causing significant disruption to the flow of
>>> community discussion, and it took a long time (plus a new newsgroup
>>> provider and a newsgroup reorg) to get folks back to them.
>>>
>>> Can something be done to combat this latest wave?
>>>
>>> -myk
>>>
>>> (posted to mozilla.general because I don't see any other applicable
>>> newsgroup for issues like this, but please redirect as appropriate)
>> Hello myk:
>>
>> Without really thinking this through, all I can think of is using a
>> moderator. I wonder if anyone has ever tried writing an application
>> to lighten the load on a human moderator? Otherwise it takes the
>> efforts of very dedicated folks to keep it going.
>>
>> My $0.02USD...
>
> Well, my 2cents is that using a moderator is the worst of all choices. I
> present the destructive result of MTMM as an example; result will be
> no spam and no group attendees.
>
> My suggestion is for Mozilla to get their own server and have their own
> control (without a moderator) just as it used to be (news and secnews).
>
My experience has been that a moderated group degenerates to one person
(the moderator) talking to himself as soon only HIS opinion on any
subject is tolerated.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

On 22.08.2008 17:12, 1PW wrote:

--- Original Message ---

> On 08/22/2008 12:59 PM, Gus Richter sent:
>
> Snip, snip...
>
>>
>> Well, my 2cents is that using a moderator is the worst of all choices. I
>> present the destructive result of MTMM as an example; result will be no
>> spam and no group attendees.
>>
>> My suggestion is for Mozilla to get their own server and have their own
>> control (without a moderator) just as it used to be (news and secnews).
>>
>
> Hello Gus:
>
> Perhaps a group of folks who have volunteered as moderators fits better?
> I'm too ill equipped to weigh in on this. What is MTMM? I have traced
> the origins of our postings back to a mozilla.org server. Is that what
> you meant? When you say you'd like to see Mozilla have their own
> control, how would that differ from being without a moderator? How did
> news and secnews work that made it better?
>
> Again I'm writing with great ignorance. I love this dialog! Please do
> speak your mind Gus.
>
> Respectfully - Thank you kindly sir.
>
> Pete
>

Moderation just doesn't work in a support venue. I say this from a
decade+ of experience with Netscape support, etc.

--
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support

On 08/22/2008 07:29 PM, Jay Garcia sent:

Snip, snip...

>
> Moderation just doesn't work in a support venue. I say this from a
> decade+ of experience with Netscape support, etc.
>

Then your experience is what we seek Jay. What do you suggest we do
sir? Does anyone know of a model that works better?

Pete

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

1PW wrote:
> On 08/22/2008 07:29 PM, Jay Garcia sent:
>
> Snip, snip...
>
>> Moderation just doesn't work in a support venue. I say this from a
>> decade+ of experience with Netscape support, etc.
>>
>
> Then your experience is what we seek Jay. What do you suggest we do
> sir? Does anyone know of a model that works better?
>

Why the "snip, snip"? Reading this post I can only get a vague idea
what has come before. Very annoying not having the full context. Stop
forcing me to go back and re-read previous posts. Besides, you have no
idea if they are even available or if they've expired when I read this.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
The best audience is intelligent, well-educated, and a little drunk. -
Alben W. Barkley (1877-1956)

On 08/22/2008 08:43 PM, Ed Mullen sent:
> 1PW wrote:
>> On 08/22/2008 07:29 PM, Jay Garcia sent:
>>
>> Snip, snip...
>>
>>> Moderation just doesn't work in a support venue. I say this from a
>>> decade+ of experience with Netscape support, etc.
>>>
>>
>> Then your experience is what we seek Jay. What do you suggest we do
>> sir? Does anyone know of a model that works better?
>>
>
> Why the "snip, snip"? Reading this post I can only get a vague idea
> what has come before. Very annoying not having the full context. Stop
> forcing me to go back and re-read previous posts. Besides, you have no
> idea if they are even available or if they've expired when I read this.
>

Hello Ed:

My attention was directed to the following web page by another poster in
this thread:



Perhaps I snipped way too much and the annoyance grew from that.
Fortunately, all the the posts were made in quick succession. Please
forgive me. I'll try to snip much less, or not at all. I sort by
thread and of course, others may not.

Aside from my over zealous editing, can you think of anything to keep
the spammers and ne'er do wells away from our newsgroups? Have you
seen anything that works?

Best wishes.

Pete

--
1PW

@?6A62?FEH9E=6o2@=]4@> [r4o7t]

1PW wrote:
> On 08/22/2008 08:43 PM, Ed Mullen sent:
>> 1PW wrote:
>>> On 08/22/2008 07:29 PM, Jay Garcia sent:
>>>
>>> Snip, snip...
>>>
>>>> Moderation just doesn't work in a support venue. I say this from a
>>>> decade+ of experience with Netscape support, etc.
>>>>
>>> Then your experience is what we seek Jay. What do you suggest we do
>>> sir? Does anyone know of a model that works better?
>>>
>> Why the "snip, snip"? Reading this post I can only get a vague idea
>> what has come before. Very annoying not having the full context. Stop
>> forcing me to go back and re-read previous posts. Besides, you have no
>> idea if they are even available or if they've expired when I read this.
>>
>
> Hello Ed:
>
> My attention was directed to the following web page by another poster in
> this thread:
>
>
>
> Perhaps I snipped way too much and the annoyance grew from that.
> Fortunately, all the the posts were made in quick succession. Please
> forgive me. I'll try to snip much less, or not at all. I sort by
> thread and of course, others may not.

Thanks. I'd (personally) rather wade through total quoting than be
stupified by inadequate quoting.
>
> Aside from my over zealous editing, can you think of anything to keep
> the spammers and ne'er do wells away from our newsgroups? Have you
> seen anything that works?

No. Spammers are always adapting to whatever new defense is developed.
It's a losing battle.

I have my own domain and my host offers very effective spam control.
For instance, my email address has in August generated (so far) about
800 spam messages that have been trapped by my domain provide and never
reached me. In that period about a tenth of that has slipped through
and been dealt with by SeaMonkey's spam/junk controls. And I deep
training both my provider's and my local junk controls.

But, my point is that it's a never-ending effort.

A human must manually classify the new spams hitting the newsgroups.
There is no automated system that works 100%. Even if there were today,
tomorrow some spammer will circumvent it.

The only answer is vigilance.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
I think there is a world market for maybe five computers. - Thomas J.
Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

Ed Mullen, 2008/08/22 9:43 PM:
> Why the "snip, snip"? Reading this post I can only get a vague idea
> what has come before. Very annoying not having the full context.
> Stop forcing me to go back and re-read previous posts. Besides, you
> have no idea if they are even available or if they've expired when I
> read this.

He is following the Mozilla Forum Etiquette


Do not quote the entire content of the message to which you are
replying. Include only as much as is necessary for context. Remember
that if someone wants to read the original message, they can; it is
easily accessible. A good rule of thumb is, don't include more
quoted text than new text.
http://www.mozilla.org/community/etiquette.html

Far too many people do not follow this causing one to endlessly scroll
through previous post to see a pointless one line comment.