Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3 - Mozilla

This is a discussion on Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3 - Mozilla ; On May 23, 4:04 am, "Moz Champion (Dan)" wrote: > mkbrow...@hotmail.com wrote: > > On May 23, 2:09 am, Ron Hunter wrote: > >> Re: lost bookmarks. > >> I have been using Mozilla products since the 1.2 version of ...

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Thread: Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

  1. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    On May 23, 4:04 am, "Moz Champion (Dan)"
    wrote:
    > mkbrow...@hotmail.com wrote:
    > > On May 23, 2:09 am, Ron Hunter wrote:
    > >> Re: lost bookmarks.
    > >> I have been using Mozilla products since the 1.2 version of Netscape,
    > >> back in 1995, and all iterations of the Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox line,
    > >> and I have NEVER lost bookmarks. Doing so, in my opinion, is an
    > >> operator malfunction, which I have been fortunate enough to avoid. In
    > >> current version of Firefox, the bookmarks are automatically backed up,
    > >> albeit to a totally illogical place (the profile), so losing them should
    > >> be an exercise in abject user stupidity. Some of the aspects of
    > >> bookmark editing are less than intuitive, but I rarely have to consider
    > >> them as I do almost all my bookmark placement from the bookmarks toolbar.
    > >> Ron Hunter rphun...@charter.net

    >
    > > Clearly this is a Firefox Support functionary
    > > making false claims about not losing Bookmarks
    > > in order to defend the product.

    >
    > > Do you consider it part of your job as a support person
    > > to communicate Real Bugs to the developers and ensure
    > > that those Bugs are fixed ?

    >
    > I would suggest that you don't make claims you can not substantiate. If
    > Ron says he has not lost bookmarks, then he has not lost bookmarks.


    My credulity is for me to decide and I do not believe that
    anyone who has been using Firefox consistently during
    the past 2 years has not lost bookmarks. Period.
    It may be possible that the person did not notice that
    the bookmarks were lost, but that is not the
    declarative statement he made.

    > Likewise for me, I have been with the program since day one, and have
    > used Mozilla products almost exclusively, and have never lost my
    > bookmarks. Now if you DARE call that a false claim sir, you can vacate
    > the premises. Do NOT use fabrications that you have NO means of proving.


    There are two reasons why someone can make a
    "false claim".
    One is intentionally telling a lie.
    Second is error and/or ignorance.
    It is up to people who know the person making the
    false claim to judge which it is, in the
    specific case.

    > I am not stating (and neither was Ron) that loss of bookmarks doesnt
    > happen. Obviously it does to some people, that's a given. But whether
    > it is a program failing or as Ron suggests a user/operator error is
    > still undecided.


    You are alleging that users are maliciously or
    inadvertently deleting their own bookmarks ?
    Why, just to make Firefox look bad ?

    > I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are millions of
    > users the world over who have never had it happen. If you can create a
    > scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if they follow certain
    > steps, then perhaps you might have a case. Otherwise, it just may be
    > user error.


    Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,
    is the province of Paid support or public relations
    personnel.
    Can you state categorically that you have never
    been paid or received any in-kind remuneration
    for support of Mozilla products ?
    Regular unpaid people usually do not attack the
    general public on cue like this with a pecuniary
    incentive.

    > Simply because YOU have had the error happen to you does not make it a
    > program fault. Again, give the steps taken so it can be recreated on
    > demand, if it is a program fault. If not, then it may well be simply
    > user error.
    > Again. Fair Warning. If you are going to claim MY statements are false
    > you had better have some proof. I will NOT sit idly by while you lie and
    > make false accusations


    If you want to create a reason to Ban my comments
    and Censor my constructive criticisms of Firefox,
    you will have to pick them out of this message.
    Go on. Do your job.


  2. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    mkbrown32@hotmail.com wrote:

    > On May 23, 4:04 am, "Moz Champion (Dan)"
    > wrote:
    >> mkbrow...@hotmail.com wrote:
    >> > On May 23, 2:09 am, Ron Hunter wrote:
    >> >> Re: lost bookmarks.
    >> >> I have been using Mozilla products since the 1.2 version of
    >> >> Netscape,
    >> >> back in 1995, and all iterations of the Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox line,
    >> >> and I have NEVER lost bookmarks. Doing so, in my opinion, is an
    >> >> operator malfunction, which I have been fortunate enough to avoid. In
    >> >> current version of Firefox, the bookmarks are automatically backed up,
    >> >> albeit to a totally illogical place (the profile), so losing them
    >> >> should
    >> >> be an exercise in abject user stupidity. Some of the aspects of
    >> >> bookmark editing are less than intuitive, but I rarely have to
    >> >> consider them as I do almost all my bookmark placement from the
    >> >> bookmarks toolbar.
    >> >> Ron Hunter rphun...@charter.net

    >>
    >> > Clearly this is a Firefox Support functionary
    >> > making false claims about not losing Bookmarks
    >> > in order to defend the product.

    >>


    I would add my comment to those of Ron. The ONLY time I have lost my
    bookmarks is when *I* have been playing round (manually) with the contents
    of the FireFox profile.

    I am actually responding here *only* because your attitude needs to be
    strongly and publicly condemned. Keep up your crappy attitude and I
    guarantee that you will be flamed regularly or, more likely, simply ignored
    by the more knowledgeable people here. Also, please note: I am Australian
    and have _absolutely_ no connection to Firefox except as a long-time user
    and occasional dabbler in the creation of extensions for this browser.

    I am _not_ disputing that a programming problem or an extension or the theme
    incompatibility _may_ have led to the loss of your bookmarks, but it is
    definitely possible to be running FireFox without such problems occurring.
    In any case, I would suggest that the user/owner of any computer with data
    that is of value should have backed up at least that data on a regular
    basis (e.g. to CD).

    The main issue I have seen here where people _believe_ they have lost their
    bookmarks, etc. is when the program (for some reason) creates a new profile
    and opens Firefox using that profile, not the original one. I have not
    been following this thread closely so I do not know whether someone has
    mentioned this concept to you and how to recover the original profile data
    - maybe you already know this.

    Rob



  3. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    mkbrown32@hotmail.com wrote:
    > On May 23, 4:04 am, "Moz Champion (Dan)"
    > wrote:
    >> mkbrow...@hotmail.com wrote:
    >>> On May 23, 2:09 am, Ron Hunter wrote:
    >>>> Re: lost bookmarks.
    >>>> I have been using Mozilla products since the 1.2 version of Netscape,
    >>>> back in 1995, and all iterations of the Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox line,
    >>>> and I have NEVER lost bookmarks. Doing so, in my opinion, is an
    >>>> operator malfunction, which I have been fortunate enough to avoid. In
    >>>> current version of Firefox, the bookmarks are automatically backed up,
    >>>> albeit to a totally illogical place (the profile), so losing them should
    >>>> be an exercise in abject user stupidity. Some of the aspects of
    >>>> bookmark editing are less than intuitive, but I rarely have to consider
    >>>> them as I do almost all my bookmark placement from the bookmarks toolbar.
    >>>> Ron Hunter rphun...@charter.net
    >>> Clearly this is a Firefox Support functionary
    >>> making false claims about not losing Bookmarks
    >>> in order to defend the product.
    >>> Do you consider it part of your job as a support person
    >>> to communicate Real Bugs to the developers and ensure
    >>> that those Bugs are fixed ?

    >> I would suggest that you don't make claims you can not substantiate. If
    >> Ron says he has not lost bookmarks, then he has not lost bookmarks.

    >
    > My credulity is for me to decide and I do not believe that
    > anyone who has been using Firefox consistently during
    > the past 2 years has not lost bookmarks. Period.
    > It may be possible that the person did not notice that
    > the bookmarks were lost, but that is not the
    > declarative statement he made.



    Well, I have known Rom for years, and I dont beleive he would say he has
    never lost bookmarks unless he never has!

    I have used Mozilla programs continueously for the last hmmm, five years
    and have never lost my bookmarks.

    You have in effect called him a liar, do you have any proof he has lost
    bookmarks? No you don't. You sir, are making statements you cannot
    substantiate, period. You sir, are the one using mistruths, not Ron.

    >
    >> Likewise for me, I have been with the program since day one, and have
    >> used Mozilla products almost exclusively, and have never lost my
    >> bookmarks. Now if you DARE call that a false claim sir, you can vacate
    >> the premises. Do NOT use fabrications that you have NO means of proving.

    >
    > There are two reasons why someone can make a
    > "false claim".
    > One is intentionally telling a lie.
    > Second is error and/or ignorance.
    > It is up to people who know the person making the
    > false claim to judge which it is, in the
    > specific case.


    Well, you had better have some 'proof' that I have lost bookmarks before
    you claim I have. Because I have not. And if you say I have, then sir,
    you are telling a mistruth, you will be a liar.

    >
    >> I am not stating (and neither was Ron) that loss of bookmarks doesnt
    >> happen. Obviously it does to some people, that's a given. But whether
    >> it is a program failing or as Ron suggests a user/operator error is
    >> still undecided.

    >
    > You are alleging that users are maliciously or
    > inadvertently deleting their own bookmarks ?
    > Why, just to make Firefox look bad ?


    No, that is not what I said at all. Do you have a problem understanding
    English? I said it might be a user error. Error! Do you not understand
    the use of the word error? A misjudgement perhaps, a mistake made,
    whether or not it was intended or not. Usually, an error is not
    malicious, nor was it even intentional, it was an ERROR. A mistake, a
    mis-step, or similar.

    >
    >> I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are millions of
    >> users the world over who have never had it happen. If you can create a
    >> scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if they follow certain
    >> steps, then perhaps you might have a case. Otherwise, it just may be
    >> user error.

    >
    > Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,
    > is the province of Paid support or public relations
    > personnel.
    > Can you state categorically that you have never
    > been paid or received any in-kind remuneration
    > for support of Mozilla products ?
    > Regular unpaid people usually do not attack the
    > general public on cue like this with a pecuniary
    > incentive.


    I can allege such, because in my view that it the only scenario that
    accounts for it.
    And yes, I can catagorically state that I have NEVER been paid nor
    received any in-kind renumeration from Mozilla.org. I have NEVER
    received anything from Mozilla.org that wasn't available to
    anyone/everyone else.
    My statements are my own. And Mozilla.org doesnt neccessarily agree with
    them either.

    >
    >> Simply because YOU have had the error happen to you does not make it a
    >> program fault. Again, give the steps taken so it can be recreated on
    >> demand, if it is a program fault. If not, then it may well be simply
    >> user error.
    >> Again. Fair Warning. If you are going to claim MY statements are false
    >> you had better have some proof. I will NOT sit idly by while you lie and
    >> make false accusations

    >
    > If you want to create a reason to Ban my comments
    > and Censor my constructive criticisms of Firefox,
    > you will have to pick them out of this message.
    > Go on. Do your job.
    >


    I didn't create a reason, I gave you fair warning to NOT make false
    statements about me in the same way you made false statements about
    another poster. You haven't yet. I have never lost my bookmarks, and
    altho you called Ron a liar when he made that statement, you have not
    gone so far as to call me one (yet). I said that if you did, then I
    would not sit idly by, and I wont.

  4. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    Moz Champion (Dan) wrote:
    > mkbrown32@hotmail.com wrote:
    >> On May 23, 4:04 am, "Moz Champion (Dan)"
    >> wrote:
    >>> mkbrow...@hotmail.com wrote:
    >>>> On May 23, 2:09 am, Ron Hunter wrote:
    >>>>> Re: lost bookmarks.
    >>>>> I have been using Mozilla products since the 1.2 version of
    >>>>> Netscape,
    >>>>> back in 1995, and all iterations of the Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox line,
    >>>>> and I have NEVER lost bookmarks. Doing so, in my opinion, is an
    >>>>> operator malfunction, which I have been fortunate enough to avoid. In
    >>>>> current version of Firefox, the bookmarks are automatically backed up,
    >>>>> albeit to a totally illogical place (the profile), so losing them
    >>>>> should
    >>>>> be an exercise in abject user stupidity. Some of the aspects of
    >>>>> bookmark editing are less than intuitive, but I rarely have to
    >>>>> consider
    >>>>> them as I do almost all my bookmark placement from the bookmarks
    >>>>> toolbar.
    >>>>> Ron Hunter rphun...@charter.net
    >>>> Clearly this is a Firefox Support functionary
    >>>> making false claims about not losing Bookmarks
    >>>> in order to defend the product.
    >>>> Do you consider it part of your job as a support person
    >>>> to communicate Real Bugs to the developers and ensure
    >>>> that those Bugs are fixed ?
    >>> I would suggest that you don't make claims you can not substantiate. If
    >>> Ron says he has not lost bookmarks, then he has not lost bookmarks.

    >>
    >> My credulity is for me to decide and I do not believe that
    >> anyone who has been using Firefox consistently during
    >> the past 2 years has not lost bookmarks. Period.
    >> It may be possible that the person did not notice that
    >> the bookmarks were lost, but that is not the
    >> declarative statement he made.

    >
    >
    > Well, I have known Rom for years, and I dont beleive he would say he has
    > never lost bookmarks unless he never has!
    >
    > I have used Mozilla programs continueously for the last hmmm, five years
    > and have never lost my bookmarks.
    >
    > You have in effect called him a liar, do you have any proof he has lost
    > bookmarks? No you don't. You sir, are making statements you cannot
    > substantiate, period. You sir, are the one using mistruths, not Ron.
    >
    >>
    >>> Likewise for me, I have been with the program since day one, and have
    >>> used Mozilla products almost exclusively, and have never lost my
    >>> bookmarks. Now if you DARE call that a false claim sir, you can vacate
    >>> the premises. Do NOT use fabrications that you have NO means of proving.

    >>
    >> There are two reasons why someone can make a
    >> "false claim".
    >> One is intentionally telling a lie.
    >> Second is error and/or ignorance.
    >> It is up to people who know the person making the
    >> false claim to judge which it is, in the
    >> specific case.

    >
    > Well, you had better have some 'proof' that I have lost bookmarks before
    > you claim I have. Because I have not. And if you say I have, then sir,
    > you are telling a mistruth, you will be a liar.
    >
    >>
    >>> I am not stating (and neither was Ron) that loss of bookmarks doesnt
    >>> happen. Obviously it does to some people, that's a given. But whether
    >>> it is a program failing or as Ron suggests a user/operator error is
    >>> still undecided.

    >>
    >> You are alleging that users are maliciously or
    >> inadvertently deleting their own bookmarks ?
    >> Why, just to make Firefox look bad ?

    >
    > No, that is not what I said at all. Do you have a problem understanding
    > English? I said it might be a user error. Error! Do you not understand
    > the use of the word error? A misjudgement perhaps, a mistake made,
    > whether or not it was intended or not. Usually, an error is not
    > malicious, nor was it even intentional, it was an ERROR. A mistake, a
    > mis-step, or similar.
    >
    >>
    >>> I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are millions of
    >>> users the world over who have never had it happen. If you can create a
    >>> scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if they follow certain
    >>> steps, then perhaps you might have a case. Otherwise, it just may be
    >>> user error.

    >>
    >> Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,
    >> is the province of Paid support or public relations
    >> personnel.
    >> Can you state categorically that you have never
    >> been paid or received any in-kind remuneration
    >> for support of Mozilla products ?
    >> Regular unpaid people usually do not attack the
    >> general public on cue like this with a pecuniary
    >> incentive.

    >
    > I can allege such, because in my view that it the only scenario that
    > accounts for it.
    > And yes, I can catagorically state that I have NEVER been paid nor
    > received any in-kind renumeration from Mozilla.org. I have NEVER
    > received anything from Mozilla.org that wasn't available to
    > anyone/everyone else.
    > My statements are my own. And Mozilla.org doesnt neccessarily agree with
    > them either.
    >
    >>
    >>> Simply because YOU have had the error happen to you does not make it a
    >>> program fault. Again, give the steps taken so it can be recreated on
    >>> demand, if it is a program fault. If not, then it may well be simply
    >>> user error.
    >>> Again. Fair Warning. If you are going to claim MY statements are false
    >>> you had better have some proof. I will NOT sit idly by while you lie and
    >>> make false accusations

    >>
    >> If you want to create a reason to Ban my comments
    >> and Censor my constructive criticisms of Firefox,
    >> you will have to pick them out of this message.
    >> Go on. Do your job.
    >>

    >
    > I didn't create a reason, I gave you fair warning to NOT make false
    > statements about me in the same way you made false statements about
    > another poster. You haven't yet. I have never lost my bookmarks, and
    > altho you called Ron a liar when he made that statement, you have not
    > gone so far as to call me one (yet). I said that if you did, then I
    > would not sit idly by, and I wont.


    Well, I had already moved mkbrown to my twit file, so I only see the
    replies in other posts. Probably just as well.
    Again, I have never lost bookmarks, and I don't work for, and have never
    worked for, Mozilla, Netscape, or any company associated with them, and
    am currently retired.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

  5. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    In tOdnfJC74WescnbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@mozilla.org>,
    "Moz Champion (Dan)" wrote:

    > >> I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are
    > >> millions of users the world over who have never had it happen. If
    > >> you can create a scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if
    > >> they follow certain steps, then perhaps you might have a case.
    > >> Otherwise, it just may be user error.

    > >
    > > Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,


    > I can allege such, because in my view that it the only scenario that
    > accounts for it.


    Since so many posters do lose their bookmarks somehow, I'm curious
    about how you think the "user error" scenario actually might happen.

    Since normal users only interact with the bookmarks using Firefox
    itself, and since there's no "lose all my bookmarks" feature in the
    browser, it seems a lot more likely that Firefox bugs cause the problem
    than that user error does.

    --
    Q

  6. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    On 23/05/2007 19:36, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused Q to
    generate the following:? :
    > In tOdnfJC74WescnbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@mozilla.org>,
    > "Moz Champion (Dan)" wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>> I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are
    >>>> millions of users the world over who have never had it happen. If
    >>>> you can create a scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if
    >>>> they follow certain steps, then perhaps you might have a case.
    >>>> Otherwise, it just may be user error.
    >>>>
    >>> Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,
    >>>

    >
    >
    >> I can allege such, because in my view that it the only scenario that
    >> accounts for it.
    >>

    >
    > Since so many posters do lose their bookmarks somehow, I'm curious
    > about how you think the "user error" scenario actually might happen.
    >
    > Since normal users only interact with the bookmarks using Firefox
    > itself, and since there's no "lose all my bookmarks" feature in the
    > browser, it seems a lot more likely that Firefox bugs cause the problem
    > than that user error does.
    >
    >

    agreed, Q... I get rather distressed when I read one of the *many*
    posts "Where have my bookmarks gone" and the replies generally (but not
    always specifically) imply "you goofed it"!

    From an early date I have asked those users to check out their profile,
    as I am quite sure (but again, no proof) that FF creates a new profile -
    randomly?? User choice on a new installation?? User oversight on an
    update??

    Unfortunately, there is very little to no feedback - possibly because
    the OP is ashamed of exposing his "boob" ?? Only a serious examination
    of this quite common "error", including the user's feedback as to what
    really happened, would help eliminate either - program bug or user error!

    A similar situation has arisen with the influx of FF vers 2.0.*....
    about 1 in 5 new posts are "Since updating, FF crashes" - if this is a
    genuine user error, then something is wrong with the code, as this kind
    of "Fatal Error" should be caught by the program! If it is a genuine
    "bug" (= faulty programming) then the situation needs to be analysed, as
    above for bookmarks! 20% of users with crashes after updating is simply
    "not on".

    And now I am going to get flooded with posts... "Where did you get those
    numbers?? Where is the proof of your statements?" - well, you guys will
    have to run a count on the headers, 'cos I'm going to bed right now!

    reg

  7. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    Q wrote:
    > In tOdnfJC74WescnbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@mozilla.org>,
    > "Moz Champion (Dan)" wrote:
    >
    >>>> I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are
    >>>> millions of users the world over who have never had it happen. If
    >>>> you can create a scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if
    >>>> they follow certain steps, then perhaps you might have a case.
    >>>> Otherwise, it just may be user error.
    >>> Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,

    >
    >> I can allege such, because in my view that it the only scenario that
    >> accounts for it.

    >
    > Since so many posters do lose their bookmarks somehow, I'm curious
    > about how you think the "user error" scenario actually might happen.
    >
    > Since normal users only interact with the bookmarks using Firefox
    > itself, and since there's no "lose all my bookmarks" feature in the
    > browser, it seems a lot more likely that Firefox bugs cause the problem
    > than that user error does.
    >

    Well, after 40 years in the IT business, and several of those doing
    helpdesk operations, I am very well acquainted with the concepts, and
    distribution, of 'user errors'. I have yet to encounter a case where a
    specific bug could cause a loss of bookmarks, although I MAY well have
    missed one. Please point me to one such, if you can.
    Now, can you make that statement about user errors? Remember, I am also
    a user, and I certainly have made my share (and then some) of errors
    over the years, including deleting my wife's email inbox BEFORE copying
    it to here new computer. I am sure that, given my heavy use of the
    program, I would have lost something over the years had there been some
    opportunity to do such by virtue of a program bug.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

  8. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    squaredancer wrote:
    > On 23/05/2007 19:36, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused Q to
    > generate the following:? :
    >> In tOdnfJC74WescnbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@mozilla.org>,
    >> "Moz Champion (Dan)" wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>>> I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are
    >>>>> millions of users the world over who have never had it happen. If
    >>>>> you can create a scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if
    >>>>> they follow certain steps, then perhaps you might have a case.
    >>>>> Otherwise, it just may be user error.
    >>>> Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,
    >>>>

    >>
    >>
    >>> I can allege such, because in my view that it the only scenario that
    >>> accounts for it.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Since so many posters do lose their bookmarks somehow, I'm curious
    >> about how you think the "user error" scenario actually might happen.
    >>
    >> Since normal users only interact with the bookmarks using Firefox
    >> itself, and since there's no "lose all my bookmarks" feature in the
    >> browser, it seems a lot more likely that Firefox bugs cause the problem
    >> than that user error does.
    >>
    >>

    > agreed, Q... I get rather distressed when I read one of the *many*
    > posts "Where have my bookmarks gone" and the replies generally (but not
    > always specifically) imply "you goofed it"!
    >
    > From an early date I have asked those users to check out their profile,
    > as I am quite sure (but again, no proof) that FF creates a new profile -
    > randomly?? User choice on a new installation?? User oversight on an
    > update??
    >
    > Unfortunately, there is very little to no feedback - possibly because
    > the OP is ashamed of exposing his "boob" ?? Only a serious examination
    > of this quite common "error", including the user's feedback as to what
    > really happened, would help eliminate either - program bug or user error!
    >
    > A similar situation has arisen with the influx of FF vers 2.0.*....
    > about 1 in 5 new posts are "Since updating, FF crashes" - if this is a
    > genuine user error, then something is wrong with the code, as this kind
    > of "Fatal Error" should be caught by the program! If it is a genuine
    > "bug" (= faulty programming) then the situation needs to be analysed, as
    > above for bookmarks! 20% of users with crashes after updating is simply
    > "not on".
    >
    > And now I am going to get flooded with posts... "Where did you get those
    > numbers?? Where is the proof of your statements?" - well, you guys will
    > have to run a count on the headers, 'cos I'm going to bed right now!
    >
    > reg


    There are several ways in the Mozillazine database that it can appear
    that Firefox has lost bookmarks, the most common being that the program
    has not terminated properly before installation of a new program, or
    starting the program again while the profile is locked after a crash,
    just to name two. In these cases, the bookmarks are NOT lost, just
    misplaced. There are also those who think it is ok to exit a program by
    rebooting, especially those impatient ones who use 'quick reboot'
    programs that crash the programs, rather than politely terminating them.
    All of these are, in my opinion, 'user-error'. You may feel free to
    disagree.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

  9. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    On May 23, 6:53 pm, Ron Hunter wrote:
    > squaredancer wrote:
    > > On 23/05/2007 19:36, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused Q to
    > > generate the following:? :
    > >> In tOdnfJC74WescnbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@mozilla.org>,
    > >> "Moz Champion (Dan)" wrote:

    >
    > >>>>> I don't believe it IS a program failure, because there are
    > >>>>> millions of users the world over who have never had it happen. If
    > >>>>> you can create a scenario where ANY user loses his bookmarks if
    > >>>>> they follow certain steps, then perhaps you might have a case.
    > >>>>> Otherwise, it just may be user error.
    > >>>> Alleging that a serious Bug is being caused by User Error,

    >
    > >>> I can allege such, because in my view that it the only scenario that
    > >>> accounts for it.

    >
    > >> Since so many posters do lose their bookmarks somehow, I'm curious
    > >> about how you think the "user error" scenario actually might happen.

    >
    > >> Since normal users only interact with the bookmarks using Firefox
    > >> itself, and since there's no "lose all my bookmarks" feature in the
    > >> browser, it seems a lot more likely that Firefox bugs cause the problem
    > >> than that user error does.

    >
    > > agreed, Q... I get rather distressed when I read one of the *many*
    > > posts "Where have my bookmarks gone" and the replies generally (but not
    > > always specifically) imply "you goofed it"!

    >
    > > From an early date I have asked those users to check out their profile,
    > > as I am quite sure (but again, no proof) that FF creates a new profile -
    > > randomly?? User choice on a new installation?? User oversight on an
    > > update??

    >
    > > Unfortunately, there is very little to no feedback - possibly because
    > > the OP is ashamed of exposing his "boob" ?? Only a serious examination
    > > of this quite common "error", including the user's feedback as to what
    > > really happened, would help eliminate either - program bug or user error!

    >
    > > A similar situation has arisen with the influx of FF vers 2.0.*....
    > > about 1 in 5 new posts are "Since updating, FF crashes" - if this is a
    > > genuine user error, then something is wrong with the code, as this kind
    > > of "Fatal Error" should be caught by the program! If it is a genuine
    > > "bug" (= faulty programming) then the situation needs to be analysed,as
    > > above for bookmarks! 20% of users with crashes after updating is simply
    > > "not on".

    >
    > > And now I am going to get flooded with posts... "Where did you get those
    > > numbers?? Where is the proof of your statements?" - well, you guys will
    > > have to run a count on the headers, 'cos I'm going to bed right now!

    >
    > > reg

    >
    > There are several ways in the Mozillazine database that it can appear
    > that Firefox has lost bookmarks, the most common being that the program
    > has not terminated properly before installation of a new program, or
    > starting the program again while the profile is locked after a crash,
    > just to name two. In these cases, the bookmarks are NOT lost, just
    > misplaced. There are also those who think it is ok to exit a program by
    > rebooting, especially those impatient ones who use 'quick reboot'
    > programs that crash the programs, rather than politely terminating them.
    > All of these are, in my opinion, 'user-error'. You may feel free to
    > disagree.
    > Ron Hunter rphun...@charter.net


    Some PCs are not as stable as others and will crash
    daily, until the user can figure out what is wrong.
    If all applications running at the time of a
    system crash became unusable
    when a crash occurs, there would be very little
    Up time for any Real PC usage.


  10. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    In ,
    Ron Hunter wrote:

    > There are several ways in the Mozillazine database that it can appear
    > that Firefox has lost bookmarks, the most common being that the
    > program has not terminated properly before installation of a new
    > program, or starting the program again while the profile is locked
    > after a crash, just to name two. In these cases, the bookmarks are
    > NOT lost, just misplaced. There are also those who think it is ok to
    > exit a program by rebooting, especially those impatient ones who use
    > 'quick reboot' programs that crash the programs, rather than politely
    > terminating them. All of these are, in my opinion, 'user-error'. You
    > may feel free to disagree.


    I do disagree.

    The fact that Firefox doesn't exit cleanly on Windows shutdown is a
    bug. (333907, severity: major).

    "Starting the program again while the profile is locked after a crash"
    involves a crash bug, and the only way I could call it user error is to
    say the user doesn't handle the crash bug as well as s/he could.

    --
    Q

  11. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    In ,
    EE wrote:

    > > Since so many posters do lose their bookmarks somehow, I'm curious
    > > about how you think the "user error" scenario actually might happen.
    > >
    > > Since normal users only interact with the bookmarks using Firefox
    > > itself, and since there's no "lose all my bookmarks" feature in the
    > > browser, it seems a lot more likely that Firefox bugs cause the
    > > problem than that user error does.

    >
    > But there are a lot of people who have found those bookmarks again,
    > with a little help. Usually it is a case of Firefox creating a new
    > profile because it was running invisibly and someone did not realize
    > that, and tried to make it run from a new process. That running an
    > invisible process has not happened to me since version 2.0.


    Yes, all true. But AFAICT, Dan claims that Firefox bugs do not cause
    any of this, only user error. IMO, the ghost process is caused by bugs
    rather than user error.

    --
    Q

  12. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    Q wrote:
    > In ,
    > Ron Hunter wrote:
    >
    >> There are several ways in the Mozillazine database that it can appear
    >> that Firefox has lost bookmarks, the most common being that the
    >> program has not terminated properly before installation of a new
    >> program, or starting the program again while the profile is locked
    >> after a crash, just to name two. In these cases, the bookmarks are
    >> NOT lost, just misplaced. There are also those who think it is ok to
    >> exit a program by rebooting, especially those impatient ones who use
    >> 'quick reboot' programs that crash the programs, rather than politely
    >> terminating them. All of these are, in my opinion, 'user-error'. You
    >> may feel free to disagree.

    >
    > I do disagree.
    >
    > The fact that Firefox doesn't exit cleanly on Windows shutdown is a
    > bug. (333907, severity: major).
    >
    > "Starting the program again while the profile is locked after a crash"
    > involves a crash bug, and the only way I could call it user error is to
    > say the user doesn't handle the crash bug as well as s/he could.
    >


    Were it a normal, OS induced shutdown, there should be no problem.
    However, there are literally dozens of programs that do a 'quick
    shutdown', in which programs are NOT terminated normally, but rather
    just crashed. Users who do that WILL have problems, and not just with
    Firefox, but with any program that keeps files open during use. That is
    one way to really lose a bookmarks file.
    It is a problem I have never seen because I very rarely shut my machine
    down, and when I do, I am careful to terminate all my applications
    before the shutdown, and I don't use 'quick shutdown' programs.
    So, yes, I believe that situation is user error.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

  13. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    Q wrote:
    > In ,
    > EE wrote:
    >
    >>> Since so many posters do lose their bookmarks somehow, I'm curious
    >>> about how you think the "user error" scenario actually might happen.
    >>>
    >>> Since normal users only interact with the bookmarks using Firefox
    >>> itself, and since there's no "lose all my bookmarks" feature in the
    >>> browser, it seems a lot more likely that Firefox bugs cause the
    >>> problem than that user error does.

    >> But there are a lot of people who have found those bookmarks again,
    >> with a little help. Usually it is a case of Firefox creating a new
    >> profile because it was running invisibly and someone did not realize
    >> that, and tried to make it run from a new process. That running an
    >> invisible process has not happened to me since version 2.0.

    >
    > Yes, all true. But AFAICT, Dan claims that Firefox bugs do not cause
    > any of this, only user error. IMO, the ghost process is caused by bugs
    > rather than user error.
    >

    Yes, bugs in the handling of TCP/IP and unsatisfied data transmission
    requests. Manually terminating the streams will allow the application
    to be shut down by the OS.
    Somehow I suspect that our Linux and Mac users never see this problem.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

  14. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    In ,
    Ron Hunter wrote:

    > > The fact that Firefox doesn't exit cleanly on Windows shutdown is a
    > > bug. (333907, severity: major).

    >
    > Were it a normal, OS induced shutdown, there should be no problem.


    That's my point. Quit stealing my point.

    > It is a problem I have never seen because I very rarely shut my machine
    > down, and when I do, I am careful to terminate all my applications
    > before the shutdown, and I don't use 'quick shutdown' programs.
    > So, yes, I believe that situation is user error.


    Well, it's not my position that there's never any user error.

    --
    Q

  15. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    On May 24, 6:47 pm, Q wrote:
    > In ,
    >
    > Ron Hunter wrote:
    > > > The fact that Firefox doesn't exit cleanly on Windows shutdown is a
    > > > bug. (333907, severity: major).

    >
    > > Were it a normal, OS induced shutdown, there should be no problem.

    >
    > That's my point. Quit stealing my point.
    >
    > > It is a problem I have never seen because I very rarely shut my machine
    > > down, and when I do, I am careful to terminate all my applications
    > > before the shutdown, and I don't use 'quick shutdown' programs.
    > > So, yes, I believe that situation is user error.

    >
    > Well, it's not my position that there's never any user error.
    >
    > --
    > Q


    Most of the people you hear from on forums like this are
    fringe users representing unimportant non-core issues.

    As far as I am concerned, the last 2 really important
    features that were added to browsers, were:
    1) the sidebar which allowed Altavista searches
    to appear on the left side of the browser window,
    (little used now because of #2), and
    2) the ability to rightclick on a web page link
    and Open In New Window.

    Those are the two critical additions Microsoft made
    to the browser world which wiped out the business
    of the earlier dominant browser, Netscape.
    Netscape was extremely incompetent in not recognizing
    the importance is this issue, and that incompetence
    in reading Needs of the marketplace cost them.

    Now, we are just in a holding pattern waiting for one
    of the current browsers to implement properly
    the basic user interface.


  16. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    On 25.05.2007 17:55, mkbrown32@hotmail.com wrote:

    --- Original Message ---

    > Those are the two critical additions Microsoft made
    > to the browser world which wiped out the business
    > of the earlier dominant browser, Netscape.
    > Netscape was extremely incompetent in not recognizing
    > the importance is this issue, and that incompetence
    > in reading Needs of the marketplace cost them.
    >
    > Now, we are just in a holding pattern waiting for one
    > of the current browsers to implement properly
    > the basic user interface.
    >


    The single most issue that brought Netscape down in percentage useage
    was that every computer in a box was loaded with most everything
    Microsoft. The quality of IE or NS had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

    --
    Jay Garcia Netscape/Mozilla Champion
    UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org

  17. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    On May 25, 4:29 pm, Jay Garcia wrote:
    > On 25.05.2007 17:55, mkbrow...@hotmail.com wrote:
    >
    > --- Original Message ---
    >
    > > Those are the two critical additions Microsoft made
    > > to the browser world which wiped out the business
    > > of the earlier dominant browser, Netscape.
    > > Netscape was extremely incompetent in not recognizing
    > > the importance is this issue, and that incompetence
    > > in reading Needs of the marketplace cost them.

    >
    > > Now, we are just in a holding pattern waiting for one
    > > of the current browsers to implement properly
    > > the basic user interface.

    >
    > The single most issue that brought Netscape down in percentage useage
    > was that every computer in a box was loaded with most everything
    > Microsoft. The quality of IE or NS had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
    >
    > --
    > Jay Garcia Netscape/Mozilla Champion
    > UFAQ -http://www.UFAQ.org


    That is crap. Netscape failed to serve the interests
    of their users after their initial release, and Microsoft
    was dogged in solving the big problem:
    how to keep the results of the Altavista search
    on the screen, while looking at each web page found,
    one after the other.
    That was a huge problem at the time and Microsoft solved it.

    It was years before Netscape implemented these features
    (despite numerous emails to them from users like me)
    and when a company ignores their users like that,
    they, Netscape, deserve to lose.
    Come to think of it, all those emails guys like me sent
    them were probably thrown in the trash
    by Paid public relations workers like those we have
    on forums like this.
    And that is why they lost.
    And all was right in this world.


  18. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    mkbrown32@hotmail.com wrote in
    >>

    >
    > That is crap. Netscape failed to serve the interests
    > of their users after their initial release, and Microsoft
    > was dogged in solving the big problem:
    > how to keep the results of the Altavista search
    > on the screen, while looking at each web page found,
    > one after the other.
    > That was a huge problem at the time and Microsoft solved it.
    >
    > It was years before Netscape implemented these features
    > (despite numerous emails to them from users like me)
    > and when a company ignores their users like that,
    > they, Netscape, deserve to lose.
    > Come to think of it, all those emails guys like me sent
    > them were probably thrown in the trash
    > by Paid public relations workers like those we have
    > on forums like this.
    > And that is why they lost.
    > And all was right in this world.


    After reading your crap for the past couple of days, why don`t you show
    some proof to this news group instead of just shooting your mouth off
    or are you too much of coward that is hiding behind a free email
    like hotmail, the only reason why i have not plonked you is
    because i find you somewhat amusing.

  19. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    On 25.05.2007 19:15, mkbrown32@hotmail.com wrote:

    --- Original Message ---

    > On May 25, 4:29 pm, Jay Garcia wrote:
    >> On 25.05.2007 17:55, mkbrow...@hotmail.com wrote:
    >>
    >> --- Original Message ---
    >>
    >> > Those are the two critical additions Microsoft made
    >> > to the browser world which wiped out the business
    >> > of the earlier dominant browser, Netscape.
    >> > Netscape was extremely incompetent in not recognizing
    >> > the importance is this issue, and that incompetence
    >> > in reading Needs of the marketplace cost them.

    >>
    >> > Now, we are just in a holding pattern waiting for one
    >> > of the current browsers to implement properly
    >> > the basic user interface.

    >>
    >> The single most issue that brought Netscape down in percentage useage
    >> was that every computer in a box was loaded with most everything
    >> Microsoft. The quality of IE or NS had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Jay Garcia Netscape/Mozilla Champion
    >> UFAQ -http://www.UFAQ.org

    >
    > That is crap. Netscape failed to serve the interests
    > of their users after their initial release, and Microsoft
    > was dogged in solving the big problem:
    > how to keep the results of the Altavista search
    > on the screen, while looking at each web page found,
    > one after the other.
    > That was a huge problem at the time and Microsoft solved it.
    >
    > It was years before Netscape implemented these features
    > (despite numerous emails to them from users like me)
    > and when a company ignores their users like that,
    > they, Netscape, deserve to lose.
    > Come to think of it, all those emails guys like me sent
    > them were probably thrown in the trash
    > by Paid public relations workers like those we have
    > on forums like this.
    > And that is why they lost.
    > And all was right in this world.
    >


    Your memory fails you. Netscape could open multiple instances of the
    browser with as many sites in as many windows (ctrl+n) side by side or
    tiled - your choice, something IE couldn't do at the time. I've been
    with Netscape since early 1995, I know the numbers quite well.

    Bzzzt, you lose again.

    --
    Jay Garcia Netscape/Mozilla Champion
    UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org

  20. Re: Bookmarks Bugs and Omissions in Firefox 2.0.0.3

    john sumner wrote:
    > mkbrown32@hotmail.com wrote in
    >> That is crap. Netscape failed to serve the interests
    >> of their users after their initial release, and Microsoft
    >> was dogged in solving the big problem:
    >> how to keep the results of the Altavista search
    >> on the screen, while looking at each web page found,
    >> one after the other.
    >> That was a huge problem at the time and Microsoft solved it.
    >>
    >> It was years before Netscape implemented these features
    >> (despite numerous emails to them from users like me)
    >> and when a company ignores their users like that,
    >> they, Netscape, deserve to lose.
    >> Come to think of it, all those emails guys like me sent
    >> them were probably thrown in the trash
    >> by Paid public relations workers like those we have
    >> on forums like this.
    >> And that is why they lost.
    >> And all was right in this world.

    >
    > After reading your crap for the past couple of days, why don`t you show
    > some proof to this news group instead of just shooting your mouth off
    > or are you too much of coward that is hiding behind a free email
    > like hotmail, the only reason why i have not plonked you is
    > because i find you somewhat amusing.


    You have a pretty broad sense of humor. I plonked this guy a week ago!


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net

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