Probable MS annoyance... - Mozilla

This is a discussion on Probable MS annoyance... - Mozilla ; Hi, I'm getting a mail where text looks e. g. like this in TB: "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17. Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18. Pr öva första tillfället GRATIS!" The corresponding source looks ...

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  1. Probable MS annoyance...

    Hi,

    I'm getting a mail where text looks e. g. like this in TB:

    "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17.
    Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18.

    Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"

    The corresponding source looks like this:

    "Dans f=F6r ungdomar mellan 10=AD16 =E5r, torsdagar 16=AD17.
    Aerobics f=F6r vuxna och ungdomar +13 =E5r, torsdagar 17=AD18.

    Pr=F6va f=F6rsta tillf=E4llet GRATIS!"

    According to the sender, it should look something like this:

    "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10-*16 år, torsdagar 16-*17.
    Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17-*18.

    Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"

    From the header:
    User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428
    ---snip---
    Mime-version: 1.0
    Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
    Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

    The sender, a habitual Mac user, thinks I'm having "Linux problems" (I'm
    using TB in W2K ATM), and that there's nothing wrong with his message.

    I strongly doubt there's nothing wrong with his message, what with MS
    standards violation history etc.

    Am I right in assuming there's nothing wrong with TB's way of handling
    this, and that there's some setting he should/can make to prevent this
    from happening again?

    If so, I'd be happy to know what he should be doing, to spare innocent
    people from ugly and potentially unintelligible messages.

    BR,
    Gudmund

  2. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    On 17.01.2006 21:35, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused Gudmund
    Areskoug to generate the following:? :

    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm getting a mail where text looks e. g. like this in TB:
    >
    > "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17.
    > Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18.
    >
    > Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"
    >
    > The corresponding source looks like this:
    >
    > "Dans f=F6r ungdomar mellan 10=AD16 =E5r, torsdagar 16=AD17.
    > Aerobics f=F6r vuxna och ungdomar +13 =E5r, torsdagar 17=AD18.
    >
    > Pr=F6va f=F6rsta tillf=E4llet GRATIS!"
    >
    > According to the sender, it should look something like this:
    >
    > "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10-*16 år, torsdagar 16-*17.
    > Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17-*18.
    >
    > Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"
    >
    > From the header:
    > User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428
    > ---snip---
    > Mime-version: 1.0
    > Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
    > Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
    >
    > The sender, a habitual Mac user, thinks I'm having "Linux problems"
    > (I'm using TB in W2K ATM), and that there's nothing wrong with his
    > message.
    >
    > I strongly doubt there's nothing wrong with his message, what with MS
    > standards violation history etc.
    >
    > Am I right in assuming there's nothing wrong with TB's way of handling
    > this, and that there's some setting he should/can make to prevent this
    > from happening again?
    >
    > If so, I'd be happy to know what he should be doing, to spare innocent
    > people from ugly and potentially unintelligible messages.
    >
    > BR,
    > Gudmund


    could be his loaded font-page.. in Win98 it was loaded with the
    autoexec.bat.... dunno how Macs do it! The Font page was code 850 for
    the multi-language version, may have been 865 for DK, NO and SV specific
    characters
    His font isn't using the extended ASCII code as generated by the
    Keyboard.... need to ask a Mac-fan, what the keyboard installation file
    is called at Apple Inc! (in Win>>98 it was KEYB SV for Sweden).

    reg

  3. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    On 17-01-2006 23:19 CET, squaredancer composed this enchanting statement:
    > On 17.01.2006 21:35, CET - what odd quirk of fate caused Gudmund
    > Areskoug to generate the following:? :
    >
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I'm getting a mail where text looks e. g. like this in TB:
    >>
    >> "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17.
    >> Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18.
    >>
    >> Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"
    >>
    >> The corresponding source looks like this:
    >>
    >> "Dans f=F6r ungdomar mellan 10=AD16 =E5r, torsdagar 16=AD17.
    >> Aerobics f=F6r vuxna och ungdomar +13 =E5r, torsdagar 17=AD18.
    >>
    >> Pr=F6va f=F6rsta tillf=E4llet GRATIS!"
    >>
    >> According to the sender, it should look something like this:
    >>
    >> "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10-*16 år, torsdagar 16-*17.
    >> Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17-*18.
    >>
    >> Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"
    >>
    >> From the header:
    >> User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428
    >> ---snip---
    >> Mime-version: 1.0
    >> Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
    >> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
    >>
    >> The sender, a habitual Mac user, thinks I'm having "Linux problems"
    >> (I'm using TB in W2K ATM), and that there's nothing wrong with his
    >> message.
    >>
    >> I strongly doubt there's nothing wrong with his message, what with MS
    >> standards violation history etc.
    >>
    >> Am I right in assuming there's nothing wrong with TB's way of
    >> handling this, and that there's some setting he should/can make to
    >> prevent this from happening again?
    >>
    >> If so, I'd be happy to know what he should be doing, to spare
    >> innocent people from ugly and potentially unintelligible messages.
    >>
    >> BR,
    >> Gudmund

    >
    > could be his loaded font-page.. in Win98 it was loaded with the
    > autoexec.bat.... dunno how Macs do it! The Font page was code 850 for
    > the multi-language version, may have been 865 for DK, NO and SV
    > specific characters
    > His font isn't using the extended ASCII code as generated by the
    > Keyboard.... need to ask a Mac-fan, what the keyboard installation
    > file is called at Apple Inc! (in Win>>98 it was KEYB SV for Sweden).
    >
    > reg

    may be something with the keyboard mapping, I've it set to NL at present

    copied from above:
    "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17.
    Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18.

    now switched keyboard mapping to swedish pro

    "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17.
    Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18.

    does this help _ (question mark)

  4. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    Gudmund Areskoug <"fta at algonet dot se"> wrote in
    :

    > I'm getting a mail where text looks e. g. like this in TB:
    >
    > "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17.

    ^ ^
    > Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18.

    ^
    > Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"


    There are "soft hyphens" (hex AD characters) where I have indicated,
    but Tb does not display them.

    > The corresponding source looks like this:
    >
    > "Dans f=F6r ungdomar mellan 10=AD16 =E5r, torsdagar 16=AD17.
    > Aerobics f=F6r vuxna och ungdomar +13 =E5r, torsdagar 17=AD18.
    >
    > Pr=F6va f=F6rsta tillf=E4llet GRATIS!"


    What you pasted above is the correct decoding of the
    quoted-printable source. Here it is with the hyphens deleted:

    "Dans för ungdomar mellan 1016 år, torsdagar 1617.
    Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 1718."

    You won't be able to see the difference in Tb.

    > According to the sender, it should look something like this:
    >
    > "Dans för ungdomar mellan 10-*16 år, torsdagar 16-*17.
    > Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17-*18.


    Here you have added hard hyphens to the soft hyphens. Tb will
    display the hard ones, but not the soft ones, but they'll both show
    up in an ISO-8859-1 compliant reader.

    > From the header:
    > User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428
    > ---snip---
    > Mime-version: 1.0
    > Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
    > Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
    >
    > The sender, a habitual Mac user, thinks I'm having "Linux
    > problems" (I'm using TB in W2K ATM), and that there's nothing
    > wrong with his message.
    >
    > I strongly doubt there's nothing wrong with his message, what with
    > MS standards violation history etc.
    >
    > Am I right in assuming there's nothing wrong with TB's way of
    > handling this, and that there's some setting he should/can make to
    > prevent this from happening again?


    There is a problem with Thunderbird. Following the ISO-8859-1
    spec, the soft hyphens should be displayed. Following various html
    specs, they should /not/ be displayed unless Tb itself has to wrap the
    line. The Content-type header tells Tb it's text/plain, but Tb
    handles it as if it were text/html. (When you're a Gecko, everything
    looks like a web page.

    For (a lot) more info on the trouble with soft hyphens and html, see
    .

    > and that there's some setting he should/can make to
    > prevent this from happening again? If so, I'd be happy to know
    > what he should be doing, to spare innocent people from ugly and
    > potentially unintelligible messages.


    He should use hard hyphens instead of soft ones. Unfortunately, I
    don't know why Microsoft-Entourage is using soft ones, and I don't know
    how to make it stop. It's not using them as the ISO-8859-1 spec
    specifies. (Though, again, they should be visible anyway.)
    Maybe using the "minus" key on the number pad would work?

    --
    »Q«

  5. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    »Q« wrote:
    > Gudmund Areskoug <"fta at algonet dot se"> wrote in
    > :
    >
    >
    >>I'm getting a mail where text looks e. g. like this in TB:
    >>
    >>"Dans för ungdomar mellan 10*16 år, torsdagar 16*17.

    >
    > ^ ^
    >
    >>Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17*18.

    >
    > ^
    >
    >>Pröva första tillfället GRATIS!"

    >
    >
    > There are "soft hyphens" (hex AD characters) where I have indicated,
    > but Tb does not display them.
    >
    >
    >>The corresponding source looks like this:
    >>
    >>"Dans f=F6r ungdomar mellan 10=AD16 =E5r, torsdagar 16=AD17.
    >>Aerobics f=F6r vuxna och ungdomar +13 =E5r, torsdagar 17=AD18.
    >>
    >>Pr=F6va f=F6rsta tillf=E4llet GRATIS!"

    >
    >
    > What you pasted above is the correct decoding of the
    > quoted-printable source. Here it is with the hyphens deleted:
    >
    > "Dans för ungdomar mellan 1016 år, torsdagar 1617.
    > Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 1718."
    >
    > You won't be able to see the difference in Tb.
    >
    >
    >>According to the sender, it should look something like this:
    >>
    >>"Dans för ungdomar mellan 10-*16 år, torsdagar 16-*17.
    >>Aerobics för vuxna och ungdomar +13 år, torsdagar 17-*18.

    >
    >
    > Here you have added hard hyphens to the soft hyphens. Tb will
    > display the hard ones, but not the soft ones, but they'll both show
    > up in an ISO-8859-1 compliant reader.
    >
    >
    >> From the header:
    >>User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1428
    >>---snip---
    >>Mime-version: 1.0
    >>Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
    >>Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
    >>
    >>The sender, a habitual Mac user, thinks I'm having "Linux
    >>problems" (I'm using TB in W2K ATM), and that there's nothing
    >>wrong with his message.
    >>
    >>I strongly doubt there's nothing wrong with his message, what with
    >>MS standards violation history etc.
    >>
    >>Am I right in assuming there's nothing wrong with TB's way of
    >>handling this, and that there's some setting he should/can make to
    >>prevent this from happening again?

    >
    > There is a problem with Thunderbird. Following the ISO-8859-1
    > spec, the soft hyphens should be displayed. Following various html
    > specs, they should /not/ be displayed unless Tb itself has to wrap the
    > line. The Content-type header tells Tb it's text/plain, but Tb
    > handles it as if it were text/html. (When you're a Gecko, everything
    > looks like a web page.
    >
    > For (a lot) more info on the trouble with soft hyphens and html, see
    > .
    >
    >
    >>and that there's some setting he should/can make to
    >>prevent this from happening again? If so, I'd be happy to know
    >>what he should be doing, to spare innocent people from ugly and
    >>potentially unintelligible messages.

    >
    >
    > He should use hard hyphens instead of soft ones. Unfortunately, I
    > don't know why Microsoft-Entourage is using soft ones, and I don't know
    > how to make it stop. It's not using them as the ISO-8859-1 spec
    > specifies. (Though, again, they should be visible anyway.)
    > Maybe using the "minus" key on the number pad would work?


    Thanks a lot Q, very enlightening! I'll start off by telling him about
    the soft hyphens, let's see if someone knows how to make his mailer send
    e. g. plain text.

    Thunderbird only showing soft hyphens only at line wraps appears like
    perfecly sane and desirable behaviour to me. AFAIK, that is the very
    purpose for having *soft* hyphens.

    BR,
    Gudmund

  6. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    »Q« wrote:
    > Gudmund Areskoug <"fta at algonet dot se"> wrote in
    > :
    >
    >>Thanks a lot Q, very enlightening! I'll start off by telling him
    >>about the soft hyphens, let's see if someone knows how to make his
    >>mailer send e. g. plain text.

    >
    > If he can find a checkbox to turn off the quoted-printable encoding,
    > that may help. Or it may not. You and I posted unencoded plain
    > text, but the soft hyphens were in your post and mine.


    yes, I found out after telling him about the soft hyphens that he had
    also just copy-pasted that content from a mail he got from someone else...

    I've never, ever, used an MS mail product, so I have no idea at all how
    he should do it correctly. Perhaps paste in the Mac equivalent to
    Notepad in between?

    >>Thunderbird only showing soft hyphens only at line wraps appears
    >>like perfecly sane and desirable behaviour to me. AFAIK, that is
    >>the very purpose for having *soft* hyphens.

    >
    > In Firefox, Gecko just ignores them; it won't use them to break
    > lines at the edge of the screen, and it won't display them if they
    > occur at the ends of lines. In Tb, I'm not familiar enough with its
    > line-wrapping options to even propose a way to test what it will do,
    > but I suspect it just treats them as Fx does, by completely ignoring
    > them.


    Perhaps I'll test it sometime, when I feel like sending myself a mail
    choked with soft hyphens... Or maybe I'll have a beer instead .

    BR,
    Gudmund

  7. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    Gudmund Areskoug <"fta at algonet dot se"> wrote in
    :

    >> If he can find a checkbox to turn off the quoted-printable
    >> encoding, that may help. Or it may not. You and I posted
    >> unencoded plain text, but the soft hyphens were in your post and
    >> mine.

    >
    > yes, I found out after telling him about the soft hyphens that he
    > had also just copy-pasted that content from a mail he got from
    > someone else...
    >
    > I've never, ever, used an MS mail product, so I have no idea at
    > all how he should do it correctly. Perhaps paste in the Mac
    > equivalent to Notepad in between?


    If he looks at it in a basic text editor, he'll just see the
    quoted-printable encodings. The soft hyphens are represented by
    =AD, and he could search-and-replace them with =2D. This seems like
    a lot to ask of him, but I don't know of any app which will
    automagically convert soft hyphens to hard ones.

    >> In Tb, I'm not familiar enough with its line-wrapping options to
    >> even propose a way to test what it will do, but I suspect it just
    >> treats them as Fx does, by completely ignoring them.

    >
    > Perhaps I'll test it sometime, when I feel like sending myself a
    > mail choked with soft hyphens... Or maybe I'll have a beer instead
    > .


    Having looked at your OP with two newsreaders, a few text editors, and
    a hex editor to make sure of what I was seeing, I strongly recommend
    the second option.

    --
    »Q«

  8. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    »Q« wrote in
    :

    > Gudmund Areskoug <"fta at algonet dot se"> wrote in
    > :


    >> I've never, ever, used an MS mail product, so I have no idea at
    >> all how he should do it correctly. Perhaps paste in the Mac
    >> equivalent to Notepad in between?

    >
    > If he looks at it in a basic text editor, he'll just see the
    > quoted-printable encodings. The soft hyphens are represented by
    > =AD, and he could search-and-replace them with =2D. This seems
    > like a lot to ask of him, but I don't know of any app which will
    > automagically convert soft hyphens to hard ones.


    I wasn't thinking so clearly. The hard hyphens don't need to be
    encoded. =2D would work, but replacing with - would work just as
    well.

    --
    »Q«

  9. Re: Probable MS annoyance...

    »Q« wrote:
    > »Q« wrote in
    > :
    >
    >
    >>Gudmund Areskoug <"fta at algonet dot se"> wrote in
    >>:

    >
    >
    >>>I've never, ever, used an MS mail product, so I have no idea at
    >>>all how he should do it correctly. Perhaps paste in the Mac
    >>>equivalent to Notepad in between?

    >>
    >>If he looks at it in a basic text editor, he'll just see the
    >>quoted-printable encodings. The soft hyphens are represented by
    >>=AD, and he could search-and-replace them with =2D. This seems
    >>like a lot to ask of him, but I don't know of any app which will
    >>automagically convert soft hyphens to hard ones.

    >
    >
    > I wasn't thinking so clearly. The hard hyphens don't need to be
    > encoded. =2D would work, but replacing with - would work just as
    > well.


    If there were such a thing as "Paste special" in e. g. OpenOffice, where
    you get the option to select what format to paste as, including plain
    text, that might be a viable solution for him. No idea if such a thing
    exists in his context.

    Saving to some appropriate file format, then copy-pasting from there in
    a good way, might perhaps do the trick for him too, but it's still
    rather roundabout.

    BR,
    Gudmund


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