Mac Market Share Facts - Microsoft Windows

This is a discussion on Mac Market Share Facts - Microsoft Windows ; On May 24, 3:03*pm, ZnU wrote: > In article , > *George Graves wrote: > > > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote > > (in article ): > > [snip] > > > > That's ...

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Thread: Mac Market Share Facts

  1. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On May 24, 3:03*pm, ZnU wrote:
    > In article <0001HW.C45C777C0016549EF0184...@news.comcast.net>,
    > *George Graves wrote:
    >
    > > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote
    > > (in article ):

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > > That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
    > > > applications.

    >
    > > Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all its
    > > standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD packages,
    > > a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling plug-ins
    > > for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there?

    >
    > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps on the
    > list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating systems once
    > reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up growth of a new
    > desktop app market on Linux.


    There go the goal posts again. From "Linux has no professional
    applications" to "those professional applications I denied exist don't
    represent bottom-up growth."


    > This is what I've been saying for years.


    With no regard to how it has become increasingly untrue over that span
    of years.

    > Linux has some decent apps for
    > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.


    Gee, just like the Mac!

    > And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
    > be popular, like high-end 3D.


    You mean like the Mac has a scattering of high end publishing and film
    editing apps, but little else?

    > But that's about it.


    What about all the Windows apps you can run under Cross Office?

    > And that's not enough
    > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
    > happen to be in certain very specific fields.


    ZnU will never identify these vague "demanding users" nor name what
    mysterious needs they have that Linux can not satisfy.

  2. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On May 25, 5:22*am, Alan Baker wrote:
    > In article
    > <2ada85ff-006f-42e6-8cae-b325c6007...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > *Edwin wrote:
    > > On May 24, 3:03*pm, ZnU wrote:
    > > > In article <0001HW.C45C777C0016549EF0184...@news.comcast.net>,
    > > > *George Graves wrote:

    >
    > > > > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote
    > > > > (in article ):

    >
    > > > [snip]

    >
    > > > > > That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade" Linux
    > > > > > applications.

    >
    > > > > Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all its
    > > > > standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD
    > > > > packages,
    > > > > a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling
    > > > > plug-ins
    > > > > for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there?

    >
    > > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps on the
    > > > list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating systems once
    > > > reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up growth of a new
    > > > desktop app market on Linux.

    >
    > > > This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
    > > > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
    > > > And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
    > > > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
    > > > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
    > > > happen to be in certain very specific fields.

    >
    > > ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux comprises an
    > > old Unix application from a "very specific field."

    >
    > Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "mostly"?


    No, I don't share your shortcomings, not your unfamilarity with the
    word "mostly," and even more so not your shockingly low reading
    comprehension that keeps you from understanding how I address the
    whole of ZnU's post with my remark.

  3. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article
    ,
    Edwin wrote:

    > On May 25, 5:22*am, Alan Baker wrote:
    > > In article
    > > <2ada85ff-006f-42e6-8cae-b325c6007...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > *Edwin wrote:
    > > > On May 24, 3:03*pm, ZnU wrote:
    > > > > In article <0001HW.C45C777C0016549EF0184...@news.comcast.net>,
    > > > > *George Graves wrote:

    > >
    > > > > > On Fri, 23 May 2008 09:48:40 -0700, Sgt. Friday wrote
    > > > > > (in article ):

    > >
    > > > > [snip]

    > >
    > > > > > > That's just a small sampling of available "professional grade"
    > > > > > > Linux
    > > > > > > applications.

    > >
    > > > > > Actually, its about all of them, isn't it? So aside from Maya and all
    > > > > > its
    > > > > > standalone components, Sybase and its standalone components, 4 CAD
    > > > > > packages,
    > > > > > a Gnu "Visio" knockoff, Matlab, a couple of Adobe "alpha" enabling
    > > > > > plug-ins
    > > > > > for Linux, and a version of Acrobat Reader, what else is there?

    > >
    > > > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps on the
    > > > > list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating systems once
    > > > > reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up growth of a new
    > > > > desktop app market on Linux.

    > >
    > > > > This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
    > > > > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and
    > > > > e-mail.
    > > > > And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used
    > > > > to
    > > > > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not
    > > > > enough
    > > > > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
    > > > > happen to be in certain very specific fields.

    > >
    > > > ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux comprises an
    > > > old Unix application from a "very specific field."

    > >
    > > Are you unfamiliar with the meaning of the word "mostly"?

    >
    > No, I don't share your shortcomings, not your unfamilarity with the
    > word "mostly," and even more so not your shockingly low reading
    > comprehension that keeps you from understanding how I address the
    > whole of ZnU's post with my remark.


    Then if you understand the word, you must have understood that by using
    it, Znu was explicitly saying that there were items on that list that
    were *not* "apps in fields where proprietary Unix operating systems once
    reigned". That makes your instistence that he show something is what he
    already undertands it is not very odd.

    --
    "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" --
    "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone
    "It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix." -- "It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix' (Edwin on Mac OS X)
    '[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
    'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
    IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
    'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
    on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)

  4. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On Mon, 26 May 2008 04:01:39 -0400, Cuphea Ignea wrote:
    > "Sandman" wrote in message
    > news:mr-263A0C.09584026052008@News.Individual.NET
    >> In article , "Cuphea Ignea"
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>>>>> Cuphea Ignea:
    >>>>>>> Cuphea Ignea: Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea
    >>>>>>> what you are talking about?

    >>
    >>>>>> Sandman:
    >>>>>> Are you saying it IS an application based on the appearance of
    >>>>>> the *icon*?

    >>
    >>>>> Cuphea Ignea:
    >>>>> Are you saying it IS NOT?

    >>
    >>>> Tim Murray:
    >>>> I think it's more like "an icon doth not an application make."
    >>>> But anyway, it's a plug-in for .Net-based media.

    >>
    >>> Cuphea Ignea:
    >>> Why Sandman talk about the icon making it an application? An icon
    >>> can mean many things to different people from all sorts of
    >>> cultures.

    >>
    >> You're the one claiming that whether an executable is an application
    >> can be determined by looking at its icon. Hehe.

    >
    > Do you speak for your mother or let her say no?
    >
    >


    Look, maybe language thing it is, but sense you are making not.


  5. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article
    <7d6c140e-ce39-4b76-88c0-bb7f4e6526d0@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
    Edwin wrote:

    > On May 25, 11:48*pm, ZnU wrote:
    > > In article ,
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > *Sandman wrote:
    > > > In article
    > > > <2ada85ff-006f-42e6-8cae-b325c6007...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
    > > > Edwin wrote:

    > >
    > > > > > ZnU:
    > > > > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major apps
    > > > > > on the list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix operating
    > > > > > systems once reigned. They don't represent some sort of bottom-up
    > > > > > growth of a new desktop app market on Linux. This is what I've
    > > > > > been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for very common
    > > > > > desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail. And
    > > > > > it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used
    > > > > > to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's
    > > > > > not enough to make it a viable operating system for demanding
    > > > > > users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific fields.

    > >
    > > > > Edwin:
    > > > > ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux comprises
    > > > > an old Unix application from a "very specific field."

    > >
    > > > Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a trend.

    > >
    > > Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.

    >
    > "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and cross-
    > device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET based media
    > experiences and rich interactive applications for the Web. "
    >
    > http://silverlight.net/
    >
    > Yes, folks, both Sandman and ZnU are stupid and dishonest enough to
    > dismiss a thing without having the foggest idea of what it is.


    Despite the marketing hype in which it is written, the quote agrees with
    what Znu said.

    --
    "The iPhone doesn't have a speaker phone" -- "I checked very carefully" --
    "I checked Apple's web pages" -- Edwin on the iPhone
    "It is Mac OS X, not BSD.' -- 'From Mac OS to BSD Unix." -- "It's BSD Unix with Apple's APIs and GUI on top of it' -- 'nothing but BSD Unix' (Edwin on Mac OS X)
    '[The IBM PC] could boot multiple OS, such as DOS, C/PM, GEM, etc.' --
    'I claimed nothing about GEM other than it was available software for the
    IBM PC. (Edwin on GEM)
    'Solaris is just a marketing rename of Sun OS.' -- 'Sun OS is not included
    on the timeline of Solaris because it's a different OS.' (Edwin on Sun)

  6. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) in real life Gary Stewart

    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html
    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2007/...ish-troll.html

    Traits:

    * Nym shifting (see below)
    * Self confessed thief and proud of it
    * Homophobic
    * Racist
    * Habitual liar
    * Frequently cross posts replies to other non-Linux related newsgroups
    * Frequently cross posts articles originally not posted to COLA

    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  7. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) in real life Gary Stewart

    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html
    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2007/...ish-troll.html

    Traits:

    * Nym shifting (see below)
    * Self confessed thief and proud of it
    * Homophobic
    * Racist
    * Habitual liar
    * Frequently cross posts replies to other non-Linux related newsgroups
    * Frequently cross posts articles originally not posted to COLA

    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  8. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article , Rick
    wrote:

    > > > Cuphea Ignea:
    > > > Cuphea Ignea: I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer
    > > > my question but I failed. Features. Features. Do you not
    > > > understand what I mean?


    > > Sandman:
    > > Instead of comparing spec sheets, why not point to the thousands
    > > upon thousand of professional users who have switched to free gimp
    > > from expensive photoshop? What use are spec sheets if it isn't
    > > being used?


    > Rick:
    > Well, Gimp was forked to Cinepaint, and that has been used in
    > Hollywood.


    As opposed to Gimp, then.

    > Wine was also used to run Photoshop under Linux in
    > Hollywood.


    As opposed to Gimp, then.

    --
    Sandman[.net]

  9. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On Sun, 25 May 2008 23:44:33 -0700, Cuphea Ignea wrote
    (in article ):

    > "George Graves" wrote in message
    > news:0001HW.C45FA697002FB17EF01846D8@news.comcast. net
    >> On Mon, 26 May 2008 01:33:05 -0700, Cuphea Ignea wrote
    >> (in article ):
    >>
    >>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
    >>>> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255.15895@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
    >>>> Linonut wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent
    >>>>>> apps for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word
    >>>>>> processing and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps
    >>>>>> from markets where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But
    >>>>>> that's about it. And that's not enough to make it a viable
    >>>>>> operating system for demanding users, unless they happen to be in
    >>>>>> certain very specific fields.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
    >>>>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/Lin...lications.html
    >>>>
    >>>> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
    >>>> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
    >>>>
    >>>> [snip]
    >>>
    >>> GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What
    >>> features of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing?

    >>
    >>
    >> CMYK. It's useless in pro circles without it. Yeah, yeah, I know
    >> there's a plug-in that allows GIMP to output CMYK, but what happens
    >> when it's a CMYK separation that you actually need to edit in GIMP?
    >> YOU CAN'T, and its something that pre-press people have to do all the
    >> time.

    >
    > I can edit in GIMP and there are CMYK plug-ins at least three if you do the
    > math. Which do you prefer?


    Two separate things. You can edit in RGB and export the files as CMYK, but
    you can't edit a CMYK separation because the application doesn't support CMYK
    directly.
    >
    >>> What is lacking is there are
    >>> plug ins for plus it is more configurable and scriptable and it is
    >>> open source so if you like to add a feature or change a feature
    >>> nothng is stopping you.

    >>
    >> Except that the support doesn't exist.

    >
    > You can do it yourself. Do you need your mama to help you pee still? The
    > code is open and you can be your own support. If you need help there is a
    > world wide community of experts not just the schlock that is there for
    > Photoshop.


    First of all, I'm not a programmer. Secondly, if that applies to me, then it
    applies to anyone. The fact that nobody has made GIMP CMYK compliant means
    one of two things: either it's too big a job requiring a core re-write, or no
    professionals are interested in the program. Either way, its not ready for
    primetime.
    >
    >




  10. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On Sun, 25 May 2008 23:30:57 -0700, ZnU wrote
    (in article ):

    > In article ,
    > "Cuphea Ignea" wrote:
    >
    >> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
    >>> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255.15895@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
    >>> Linonut wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>>
    >>>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps
    >>>>> for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing
    >>>>> and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets
    >>>>> where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about
    >>>>> it. And that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
    >>>>> demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very specific
    >>>>> fields.
    >>>>
    >>>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
    >>>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/Lin...lications.html
    >>>
    >>> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
    >>> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
    >>>
    >>> [snip]

    >>
    >> GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What features
    >> of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing? What is lacking is there are
    >> plug ins for plus it is more configurable and scriptable and it is open
    >> source so if you like to add a feature or change a feature nothng is
    >> stopping you.

    >
    > Yup, this thread is taking precisely the same course as all the other
    > Linux app threads. We've reached the stage where Linux advocates who
    > have no idea what they're talking about insist that apps are equivalent
    > when essentially no professional user considers them so.
    >
    > I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
    > because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in various
    > content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as a Photoshop
    > alternative in a professional setting. Not a single time.
    >
    >


    Nor have I.


  11. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article
    <7d6c140e-ce39-4b76-88c0-bb7f4e6526d0@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
    Edwin wrote:

    > > > > > ZnU:
    > > > > > Even more importantly, look at the types of apps. The major
    > > > > > apps on the list are mostly in fields were proprietary Unix
    > > > > > operating systems once reigned. They don't represent some
    > > > > > sort of bottom-up growth of a new desktop app market on
    > > > > > Linux. This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has
    > > > > > some decent apps for very common desktop tasks like web
    > > > > > browsing, word processing and e-mail. And it has a
    > > > > > scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
    > > > > > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And
    > > > > > that's not enough to make it a viable operating system for
    > > > > > demanding users, unless they happen to be in certain very
    > > > > > specific fields.


    > > > > Edwin:
    > > > > ZnU will now explain how Microsoft Silverlight for Linux
    > > > > comprises an old Unix application from a "very specific
    > > > > field."


    > > > Sandman:
    > > > Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a
    > > > trend.


    > > ZnU:
    > > Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.


    > Edwin:
    > "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
    > cross- device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET
    > based media experiences and rich interactive applications for the
    > Web. " http://silverlight.net/ Yes, folks, both Sandman and ZnU are
    > stupid and dishonest enough to dismiss a thing without having the
    > foggest idea of what it is.


    Huh? I knew exactly what it was? I apologize if me calling it
    "application" confused you, but it's because that's what you called it
    [1] and I didn't want to change nomenclature



    [1] You replied with this on a request for "professional grade"
    applications:



    If you knew that Silverlight wasn't an application, why did you
    include it in your list, Edwin?

    --
    Sandman[.net]

  12. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On Sun, 25 May 2008 23:42:36 -0700, Cuphea Ignea wrote
    (in article ):

    > "ZnU" wrote in message
    > news:znu-C515AD.02305726052008@news.individual.net
    >> In article ,
    >> "Cuphea Ignea" wrote:
    >>
    >>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
    >>>> In article <4S_Zj.19789$255.15895@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
    >>>> Linonut wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent
    >>>>>> apps for very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word
    >>>>>> processing and e-mail. And it has a scattering of high-end apps
    >>>>>> from markets where Unix used to be popular, like high-end 3D. But
    >>>>>> that's about it. And that's not enough to make it a viable
    >>>>>> operating system for demanding users, unless they happen to be in
    >>>>>> certain very specific fields.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in
    >>>>> this partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/Lin...lications.html
    >>>>
    >>>> Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
    >>>> plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.
    >>>>
    >>>> [snip]
    >>>
    >>> GIMP is more than enough for most people, even professionals. What
    >>> features of Photoshop do you think GIMP is missing? What is lacking
    >>> is there are plug ins for plus it is more configurable and
    >>> scriptable and it is open source so if you like to add a feature or
    >>> change a feature nothng is stopping you.

    >>
    >> Yup, this thread is taking precisely the same course as all the other
    >> Linux app threads. We've reached the stage where Linux advocates who
    >> have no idea what they're talking about insist that apps are
    >> equivalent when essentially no professional user considers them so.
    >>
    >> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
    >> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in various
    >> content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as a
    >> Photoshop alternative in a professional setting. Not a single time.

    >
    > I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I failed.
    > Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?
    >
    >


    I do, and so, I suspect, does Znu. The main feature is core CMYK support. It
    doesn't exist in GIMP and it relegates GIMP to home digital photo retouching.
    Come back an talk to us about this subject when you learn what professional
    Photoshop users NEED from the program. You clearly don't have a clue.


  13. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On Mon, 26 May 2008 00:12:33 -0700, Cuphea Ignea wrote
    (in article ):

    > "ZnU" wrote in message
    > news:znu-2BA00B.03014926052008@news.individual.net
    >> In article ,
    >> "Cuphea Ignea" wrote:
    >>
    >>> "ZnU" wrote in message
    >>> news:znu-C515AD.02305726052008@news.individual.net

    >>
    >>>> I don't want to start picking apart the feature lists in question,
    >>>> because they're long. So I'll simply note that in 10 years in
    >>>> various content creation industries, I have never seen GIMP used as
    >>>> a Photoshop alternative in a professional setting. Not a single
    >>>> time.
    >>>
    >>> I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my question but I
    >>> failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand what I mean?

    >>
    >> It's useless.

    >
    > I have used it so it can not be useless.
    >
    >> You want to compare bullet points. It doesn't work like
    >> that. Your response to George about CMYK is a perfect example. You've
    >> found a bullet point that says GIMP supports CMYK. But there's a huge
    >> difference between outputting CMYK and natively supporting it. You
    >> don't understand what that difference is, because you've barely got a
    >> clue what CMYK is for and have probably never worked with a CMYK
    >> image.

    >
    > I have not said what my experience is nor shall I defend myself to a make
    > beleive artist such as you!



    You don't have to say what your experience is. Your posts show that you don't
    know what you are talking about on this subject.


  14. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On Mon, 26 May 2008 18:48:46 +0200, Sandman wrote:

    > In article , Rick
    > wrote:
    >
    >> > > Cuphea Ignea:
    >> > > Cuphea Ignea: I tried to ignore the fact that you did not answer my
    >> > > question but I failed. Features. Features. Do you not understand
    >> > > what I mean?

    >
    >> > Sandman:
    >> > Instead of comparing spec sheets, why not point to the thousands upon
    >> > thousand of professional users who have switched to free gimp from
    >> > expensive photoshop? What use are spec sheets if it isn't being used?

    >
    >> Rick:
    >> Well, Gimp was forked to Cinepaint, and that has been used in
    >> Hollywood.

    >
    > As opposed to Gimp, then.
    >
    >> Wine was also used to run Photoshop under Linux in Hollywood.

    >
    > As opposed to Gimp, then.


    Yes, as opposed to Gimp. I thought was clear.

    --
    Rick

  15. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article , Rick
    wrote:

    > > > Rick:
    > > > Well, Gimp was forked to Cinepaint, and that has been used in
    > > > Hollywood.


    > > Sandman:
    > > As opposed to Gimp, then.


    > > > Rick:
    > > > Wine was also used to run Photoshop under Linux in Hollywood.


    > > Sandman:
    > > As opposed to Gimp, then.


    > Rick:
    > Yes, as opposed to Gimp. I thought was clear.


    Ah, so you agreed with me that Gimp isn't a serious tool used by
    professionals. I sort of gathered that you didn't. Sorry.

    --
    Sandman[.net]

  16. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:

    > * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    > > In article <4S_Zj.19789$255.15895@bignews8.bellsouth.net>,
    > > Linonut wrote:
    > >
    > >> * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
    > >>
    > >> > This is what I've been saying for years. Linux has some decent apps for
    > >> > very common desktop tasks like web browsing, word processing and e-mail.
    > >> > And it has a scattering of high-end apps from markets where Unix used to
    > >> > be popular, like high-end 3D. But that's about it. And that's not enough
    > >> > to make it a viable operating system for demanding users, unless they
    > >> > happen to be in certain very specific fields.
    > >>
    > >> Get back with us when you've evaluated all of the applications in this
    > >> partial list of commercial applications, circa 2005:
    > >>
    > >> http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/Lin...lications.html

    > >
    > > Well, I can't speak for everyone in all fields. But I don't see
    > > plausible replacements for Final Cut Pro or Photoshop on that list.

    >
    > Fair enough. But take note that you may have moved the goalpost, since
    > you were originally talking about "desktops", and now your talking about
    > "photo studios". (If I'm misremembering your original postings, please
    > forgive me.)


    The relevant post is quoted above. I *said* Linux had decent apps for
    common desktop apps. It just gets gets into big trouble when you move
    outside of the things that virtually 100% of users do. (Except, again,
    in a few specific fields.)

    And Photoshop is a pretty widely used app. Just about every profession
    that involves working with images in any way, from desktop publishing to
    web design to filmmaking, probably involves Photoshop somewhere along
    the way. Implying Photoshop is only for "photo studios" is rather like
    implying nobody would be interested in a word processor except
    professional novelists.

    > In any case, thanks to a motivated user (Disney, I believe), we can now
    > run Photoshop on WINE to get that last little bit of functionality that
    > apparently GIMP does not have. (Personally, GIMP has been much much
    > more tnan /I/ need.)
    >
    > But with major studios pushing Linux hard (even if their apps are often
    > in-house, un-shared projects), I wouldn't expect this situation to last
    > forever.


    What the major studios do has never had very much impact on anyone else.
    They tend to focus their own development efforts on in-house tools,
    often with extremely narrow applications, and simply use off-the-shelf
    apps like Photoshop for more general sorts of tasks. While it's nice to
    think the studios would, though enlightened self-interest, build free
    Linux-based alternatives to apps like Photoshop and Final Cut Pro, there
    are no substantive indications that this is happening.

    --
    "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
    out any other way."
    * * * * * * * * * * * * --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007

  17. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article ,
    "Cuphea Ignea" wrote:

    > "ZnU" wrote in message
    > news:znu-17B813.03195826052008@news.individual.net
    > > In article ,
    > > "Cuphea Ignea" wrote:
    > >
    > >> "ZnU" wrote in message
    > >> news:znu-F5DF83.03093526052008@news.individual.net
    > >>> In article ,
    > >>> "Cuphea Ignea" wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>> ZnU splattered upon for all to feel:
    > >>>>> In article ,
    > >>>>> Sandman wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>>>> Edwin will now explain how one application is any sign of a
    > >>>>>> trend.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Silverlight isn't even an application, it's a browser plug-in.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Have you seen the icon? Do you have any idea what you are talking
    > >>>> about?
    > >>>
    > >>> http://silverlight.net/
    > >>>
    > >>> "Microsoft Silverlight is a cross-browser, cross-platform, and
    > >>> cross-device plug-in for delivering the next generation of .NET
    > >>> based media experiences and rich interactive applications for the
    > >>> Web."
    > >>
    > >> "Light up the Web." "Click to install."

    > >
    > > "Incoherent"

    >
    > "You have chosen to open Silverlight.2.0.exe"
    >
    > Understand now or is your web still dark?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_software

    "Application software is a subclass of computer software that employs
    the capabilities of a computer directly and thoroughly to a task that
    the user wishes to perform."

    Silverlight doesn't perform any task directly for the user. It provides
    services to application software. It's an application environment, not
    an application.

    --
    "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
    out any other way."
    * * * * * * * * * * * * --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007

  18. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > And Photoshop is a pretty widely used app. Just about every profession
    > that involves working with images in any way, from desktop publishing to
    > web design to filmmaking, probably involves Photoshop somewhere along
    > the way. Implying Photoshop is only for "photo studios" is rather like
    > implying nobody would be interested in a word processor except
    > professional novelists.


    Exactly. Consider these two descriptive phrases:

    - profession that involves working with images in any way
    - "photo studios"

    Now explain to me how they are different.

    >> But with major studios pushing Linux hard (even if their apps are often
    >> in-house, un-shared projects), I wouldn't expect this situation to last
    >> forever.

    >
    > What the major studios do has never had very much impact on anyone else.


    Sure it don't, ZnU, sure it don't:

    http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?...s05_aug01_2006

    Intrigued by the possibilities, I did some research and found a 2003
    article in eWeek about how Walt Disney\u2019s animation unit and two
    other competing studios jointly funded a project with CodeWeavers,
    the leading corporate backer of Wine, to develop a solution that
    would allow them to run Photoshop on Linux.

    The project cost Disney less than $15,000, but saved it more than
    $50,000 a year in Windows licenses, eWeek reported. At the same
    time, CodeWeavers was able to incorporate the technology into Wine
    and its commercial version, CrossOver Office.

    A quick check with the Wine Web site showed that Photoshop was
    indeed among the 4,398 Windows applications that would run under
    Wine.

    (There are caveats about stability, but the article is almost two years
    old.)

    > They tend to focus their own development efforts on in-house tools,
    > often with extremely narrow applications, and simply use off-the-shelf
    > apps like Photoshop for more general sorts of tasks. While it's nice to
    > think the studios would, though enlightened self-interest, build free
    > Linux-based alternatives to apps like Photoshop and Final Cut Pro, there
    > are no substantive indications that this is happening.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)

    Blender was developed as an in-house application by the Dutch
    animation studio NeoGeo (not to be confused with the Neo-Geo game
    console) and Not a Number Technologies (NaN).
    . . .
    The creditors agreed to release Blender under the terms of the GNU
    General Public License, for a one-time payment of EU100,000
    (approximately US$147,000 as of January 2008; approximately equal to
    the amount in US-dollars at the time). On July 18, 2002, a Blender
    funding campaign was started by Roosendaal in order to collect
    donations and on September 7, 2002 it was announced that enough funds
    had been collected and that the Blender source code would be
    released. Blender is now an open source program being actively
    developed under the supervision of the Blender Foundation

    Not open source, but:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28software%29

    Maya is a popular, integrated node-based 3D software suite, evolved
    from Wavefront Explorer and Alias PowerAnimator using technologies
    from both. The software is released in two versions: Maya Complete
    and Maya Unlimited. Maya Personal Learning Edition (PLE) is available
    at no cost for non-commercial use, although the resulting rendered
    images are watermarked.

    Maya was originally released for the IRIX operating system, and
    subsequently ported to the Microsoft Windows, Linux and Mac OS X
    operating systems. IRIX support was discontinued after the release of
    version 6.5. When Autodesk acquired Alias in October 2005, they
    continued Maya development. The latest version, 2008 (9.0), was
    released in September 2007.

    Partially open source:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinelerra

    Cinelerra has gained ground among some GNU/Linux enthusiasts looking
    for a native video editing system. Professional use is mostly
    promoted by Linux Media Arts, which sells Cinelerra as part of an
    integrated hardware and software package for video production.
    . . .
    Because of both the latency in development and the
    distribution-specific nature of the release, a group of free and
    open-source software developers created their own version of
    Cinelerra referred to as Cinelerra-CV (where CV stands for Community
    Version).

    > While it's nice to think the studios would, though enlightened
    > self-interest, build free Linux-based alternatives to apps like
    > Photoshop and Final Cut Pro, there are no substantive indications that
    > this is happening.


    You might want to reconsider what you wrote.

    Not from a professional company:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CinePaint

    CinePaint is a computer program to paint on and retouch bitmap frames
    of movies. It is a fork of version 1.0.4 of the GNU Image
    Manipulation Program (GIMP). It is likely the most successful open
    source tool in feature motion picture work today.[1] It is free
    software under the GNU General Public License.

    Under its old name Film Gimp, CinePaint has so far been used for
    films such as Scooby-Doo, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone,
    The Last Samurai and Stuart Little[2].

    Features that set CinePaint apart from its photo-editing predecessor
    are the frame manager, the possibility to do onion skinning, and to
    work with 16-bit and floating point pixels for HDR. CinePaint
    supports a 16-bit colour managed workflow for photographers and
    printers, including CIE*Lab and CMYK editing. It supports the Cineon,
    DPX, and OpenEXR image file formats. HDR creation from bracketed
    exposures is easy.

    It is available for Linux, BSD, UNIX-like OSes, Mac OS X, and SGI
    IRIX. Currently support for Windows is broken.

    Yeah, reconsider.

    --
    Television is not real life. In real life people actually have to leave the
    coffee shop and go to jobs.
    -- Bill Gates

  19. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    On Mon, 26 May 2008 14:23:55 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    >
    > Now explain to me how they are different.


    Dance Liarnut!
    DANCE!!

    Only a truly rabid Linux zealot would attempt to argue:

    Gimp vs Photoshop
    Audacity vs Protools
    Games......

    You loons should stick to compilers and text editors.
    Linux probably wins that one.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  20. Re: Linux Market Share Facts

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:

    > * ZnU peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    > > In article ,
    > > And Photoshop is a pretty widely used app. Just about every profession
    > > that involves working with images in any way, from desktop publishing to
    > > web design to filmmaking, probably involves Photoshop somewhere along
    > > the way. Implying Photoshop is only for "photo studios" is rather like
    > > implying nobody would be interested in a word processor except
    > > professional novelists.

    >
    > Exactly. Consider these two descriptive phrases:
    >
    > - profession that involves working with images in any way
    > - "photo studios"
    >
    > Now explain to me how they are different.


    I'm not sure I understand your point.

    > >> But with major studios pushing Linux hard (even if their apps are often
    > >> in-house, un-shared projects), I wouldn't expect this situation to last
    > >> forever.

    > >
    > > What the major studios do has never had very much impact on anyone else.

    >
    > Sure it don't, ZnU, sure it don't:
    >
    > http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?...s05_aug01_2006
    >
    > Intrigued by the possibilities, I did some research and found a 2003
    > article in eWeek about how Walt Disney\u2019s animation unit and two
    > other competing studios jointly funded a project with CodeWeavers,
    > the leading corporate backer of Wine, to develop a solution that
    > would allow them to run Photoshop on Linux.


    That's nice, but not of much interest to anyone who doesn't have
    Disney's in-house support resources.

    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)
    >
    > Blender was developed as an in-house application by the Dutch
    > animation studio NeoGeo (not to be confused with the Neo-Geo game
    > console) and Not a Number Technologies (NaN).


    Blender is a 3D app. Linux has always been stronger in 3D than
    elsewhere, because this was a significant market for commercial Unix
    systems. 3D apps on Linux represent a migration to Linux from platforms
    like IRIX, not a flowering of Linux as a mainstream desktop platform.

    [snip]

    > Not open source, but:
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28software%29


    See above comments about the 3D market. It's even more obvious with
    Maya, which was ported directly from IRIX.

    > Partially open source:
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinelerra


    Cinelerra is completely off the radar in this market. Seriously. I'm in
    video production. I've never once seen it mentioned in a mainstream vido
    production magazine, or heard anyone ask about it in a video production
    forum... let alone seen anyone actually using it in production.

    > Not from a professional company:
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CinePaint


    CinePaint is an application for frame-by-frame retouching, which is an
    extremely narrow application. It's largely just not done outside of
    major post houses working on big-budget projects, because it's
    astoundingly labor intensive.

    This thread is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Linux
    advocates think that Linux is relevant to, for instance, the video
    production industry, because they read articles like the above and don't
    understand what anything actually means. They don't understand that, for
    instance, the availability of CinePaint does absolutely nothing at all
    to make Linux a plausible replacement for, say, OS X in the most video
    production shops. They just see that it's vaguely related to the
    industry and there are some respected names using it.

    --
    "More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming
    out any other way."
    * * * * * * * * * * * * --George W. Bush in Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007

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