Why no advocacy talk? - Microsoft Windows

This is a discussion on Why no advocacy talk? - Microsoft Windows ; Just curious. As an occasional user of Windows, I certainly advocate it. All present day OSs have their unique advantages and disadvantages. Heck, I use whatever OS that allows me to run the app's I want to run. Dragon NaturallySpeaking ...

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Thread: Why no advocacy talk?

  1. Why no advocacy talk?

    Just curious.

    As an occasional user of Windows, I certainly advocate it.

    All present day OSs have their unique advantages and disadvantages.

    Heck, I use whatever OS that allows me to run the app's I want to run.

    Dragon NaturallySpeaking Pro version 9.5 is such an application, I run
    it on the Vista Ultimate OS. (on my MacBook Pro)

    There is no Mac dictation app' that is anywhere near as accurate as
    Dragon, nor one that has as many useful features.

    That app' is just the tip of the iceberg; I only wish there was a modern
    comparison of Mac app's versus Windows app's that showed the unbiased
    true story about which Windows app's are significantly "better" than OSX
    app's.

    Mark-

  2. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    Mark Conrad wrote:

    > Just curious.
    >
    > As an occasional user of Windows, I certainly advocate it.


    Hard to say. I wish this newsgroup was a little bit more active too.
    Windows is pretty entrenched as it is, so it's possible that most
    people see no reason to bother promoting something that already has
    such a huge market share. Because of some of its flaws or because of
    some bad experiences, it's probably true that some people feel they
    would rather not personally recommend it to others, but then again it
    also can be argued that Windows is simply too busy doing its job and
    getting work done (well, most of the time, anyway), and everybody knows
    that, so again, why bother.

    Apple has defined themselves as the "niche" product, the
    "anti-establishment", "anti-Microsoft", and "rebel" platform, so I'm
    sure all the advocating that the Mac and OS X community does has at the
    very least partially something to do with their need to confirm their
    own convictions and the affirmation that they made the right choice
    (for their needs). They seem to truly believe that. And to an extent,
    they're right.

    > All present day OSs have their unique advantages and disadvantages.
    >
    > Heck, I use whatever OS that allows me to run the app's I want to run.


    Makes sense to me. I look at both operating systems and can see
    reasons why a person would want to choose a particular one.

    > Dragon NaturallySpeaking Pro version 9.5 is such an application, I
    > run it on the Vista Ultimate OS. (on my MacBook Pro)
    >
    > There is no Mac dictation app' that is anywhere near as accurate as
    > Dragon, nor one that has as many useful features.
    >
    > That app' is just the tip of the iceberg; I only wish there was a
    > modern comparison of Mac app's versus Windows app's that showed the
    > unbiased true story about which Windows app's are significantly
    > "better" than OSX app's.


    I don't know of any resource on the Internet that does a detailed
    head-to-head analysis of all the applications that are available for
    each of the two platforms, but one of the best sites I've come across
    that does a general comparison of Windows to the Mac OS is
    http://www.xvsxp.com. You might want to take a look at it.

  3. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    In article <7jDxi.5323$924.2779@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
    "Erich Kohl" wrote:

    > Hard to say. I wish this newsgroup was a little bit more active too.
    > Windows is pretty entrenched as it is, so it's possible that most
    > people see no reason to bother promoting something that already has
    > such a huge market share. Because of some of its flaws or because of
    > some bad experiences, it's probably true that some people feel they
    > would rather not personally recommend it to others, but then again it
    > also can be argued that Windows is simply too busy doing its job and
    > getting work done (well, most of the time, anyway), and everybody knows
    > that, so again, why bother.


    Yep. Advocating Windows is like "advocating" food, water, shelter and
    sex (not necessarily in that order!). Everyone already has it, so
    there is no point.

    Mike

  4. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    On Aug 18, 2007, Mike wrote:
    > Yep. Advocating Windows is like "advocating" food, water, shelter and
    > sex (not necessarily in that order!). Everyone already has it, so
    > there is no point.


    Umm, not always all four. Sigh.


  5. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    In article <7jDxi.5323$924.2779@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
    "Erich Kohl" wrote:

    > Hard to say. I wish this newsgroup was a little bit more active too.
    > Windows is pretty entrenched as it is, so it's possible that most
    > people see no reason to bother promoting something that already has
    > such a huge market share. Because of some of its flaws or because of
    > some bad experiences, it's probably true that some people feel they
    > would rather not personally recommend it to others, but then again it
    > also can be argued that Windows is simply too busy doing its job and
    > getting work done (well, most of the time, anyway), and everybody knows
    > that, so again, why bother.


    Good points all around, I agree.



    > Apple has defined themselves as the "niche" product, the
    > "anti-establishment", "anti-Microsoft", and "rebel" platform, so I'm
    > sure all the advocating that the Mac and OS X community does has at the
    > very least partially something to do with their need to confirm their
    > own convictions and the affirmation that they made the right choice
    > (for their needs). They seem to truly believe that. And to an extent,
    > they're right.


    True enough.

    There is a segment of Mac users who have never even tried Windows.

    ....or tried it so briefly that they have an entirely wrong impression of
    it, because they did not persist long enough to get it a fair chance.


    Same with Windows, I would guess that most Windows users have not tried
    using a modern Mac, so have no idea of its capabilities, other than what
    they hear from other people.




    > I don't know of any resource on the Internet that does a detailed
    > head-to-head analysis of all the applications that are available for
    > each of the two platforms, but one of the best sites I've come across
    > that does a general comparison of Windows to the Mac OS is
    > http://www.xvsxp.com. You might want to take a look at it.


    I did, thanks. That site does a credible job comparing the OSs
    themselves, but leaves a lot to be desired on everything else not
    directly connected to basic OS details.



    "Mike" posted to "Erich Kohl":
    > Advocating Windows is like "advocating" food, water, shelter and
    > sex (not necessarily in that order!). Everyone already has it, so
    > there is no point.


    If it were only that simple. ;-)


    I think both groups have something to gain by 'playing' with the other's
    platforms.

    Which group has the most to gain? Do not know the answer.

    Anything to lose? You bet, money, time, effort.

    Especially effort, I am lazy.

    Mark-


    --

    All the remaining stuff in this post is way off topic,
    so do not read it under any circumstances. I warned you.
    ################################################## #########

    Poor app's on one's "chosen" computer are a great motivator to try an
    equivalent app's written for a _different_ OS.

    All the available speech-to-text dictation app's for the Mac were really
    bad, in my opinion.

    That was the ONLY reason I bought my very first Windows computer many
    years ago, I think it was around 1985.

    Bought a Windows app' named "Dragon Dictate".

    Paid off, I had excellent dictation accuracy at the terrifying speed of
    40 words per minute, much better accuracy than any Mac dictation app'.

    Had...to...speak...with...spaces...between...words ...like...this.


    That little company was sold many times over; the present owner is a big
    international company based in the netherlands, Belgium I think.

    Their name is "Nuance", and the app' is now called "Dragon
    NaturallySpeaking".

    Dragon snorts right along with excellent accuracy at 300wpm, much faster
    than the average person can talk. (on Mac hardware)



    Beware of several "gotchas" though...
    *************************************

    Many versions of Dragon are sold, the useless "Standard" version at
    $100, online discount houses sell at $74.

    The "Preferred" version at $200, first version that is actually useful,
    sold at Office Depot, Best Buy, etc., etc.
    (ask for the 9.0 version, else they will try to pawn off old version 8)

    The "Pro" version at $900, the version that I use, version 9.5 designed
    for Vista - - - I presently run Vista Ultimate on my MacBook Pro.

    Medical and legal versions at $1,200 - - - I am presently contemplating
    buying the medical version.


    Confusingly, version numbers like 9.5 9.0 8.0 have absolutely
    nothing to do with "Standard" or "Preferred" or "Pro".


    When buying online to get lowest prices, in no case go to the Nuance
    website, it really sucks. I buy from the previous owner's website,
    named scansoft.com - - - in all cases insist on version 9.0 of
    "Preferred" - - - the Pro version is just too costly for checking out
    Dragon - - - the lowest cost "Standard" version is way too gutted of
    essential features, "Standard" is seldom even sold by "reputable"
    dealers of dictation software, for obvious reasons.

    Many other online dealers have lower prices than scansoft.com, however
    scansoft is a good reputable website to start with.

    Oh, one last "gotcha". Although a headset microphone is included with
    Dragon, it is the so-called "line in" variety. One should really buy a
    $20 accessory called a "USB soundpod", which is merely a sound card that
    bypasses the regular sound card inside your PC.

    This 'soundpod' goes between the supplied headset that comes with
    Dragon, and the USB connector on the PC.

    eMicrophones.com on the web sells that $20 item - - - and avoid buying
    anything else there that they try to convince you is "necessary".

    Scansoft might also sell the needed $20 soundpod.

    Its purpose is to eliminate the electrical interference picked up by the
    regular internal sound card inside your PC, which would otherwise
    degrade the accuracy of Dragon.

    ***************************
    End of Dragon "gotchas" -

  6. Re: Why no advocacy talk?


    "Mark Conrad" wrote in message
    news:noneof-93EEE5.21201311082007@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
    > Just curious.
    >
    > As an occasional user of Windows, I certainly advocate it.


    There is a reason for that. It's simple. Windows is so massively
    popular that nobody really needs ot advocate it. Back when I was an Amiga
    user in the 90s, I was a strong advocate of it. However, not many people
    used it. Advocacy is mainly done to make something popular. Plenty of people
    choose Windows over the other offererings.

    Also if you look at the comp.sys.mac.advocacy group, much of the
    "advocacy" of OS X comes in the form of Windows/Microsoft bashing.

    >
    > All present day OSs have their unique advantages and disadvantages.
    >
    > Heck, I use whatever OS that allows me to run the app's I want to run.
    >
    > Dragon NaturallySpeaking Pro version 9.5 is such an application, I run
    > it on the Vista Ultimate OS. (on my MacBook Pro)
    >
    > There is no Mac dictation app' that is anywhere near as accurate as
    > Dragon, nor one that has as many useful features.
    >
    > That app' is just the tip of the iceberg; I only wish there was a modern
    > comparison of Mac app's versus Windows app's that showed the unbiased
    > true story about which Windows app's are significantly "better" than OSX
    > app's.


    To tell you the truth, there isn't much difference to me in Mac or OS X
    apps. But I've been computing since the early 80s and both OS X and Windows
    are nice to use compared to what we used to have.

    For me I try Unix, Linux and OS X. Many times I'm looking for an
    alternative to Windows to see if I could get every day use from it like I do
    with XP. However I always wind up coming back to Windows. Most of the
    problem is hardware driver support, when the OS makers start including
    better support for new hardware, I'll find much more to do with Linux, Unix
    and OS X.

    John



  7. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    In article ,
    "John Slade" wrote:

    > > Just curious.
    > >
    > > As an occasional user of Windows, I certainly advocate it.

    >
    > There is a reason for that. It's simple. Windows is so massively
    > popular that nobody really needs ot advocate it.
    >
    > Advocacy is mainly done to make something popular.




    That certainly makes sense, and answers my question, thanks.



    > Also if you look at the comp.sys.mac.advocacy group, much of the
    > "advocacy" of OS X comes in the form of Windows/Microsoft bashing.


    Yes, I noticed that.



    > To tell you the truth, there isn't much difference to me
    > in Mac or OS X apps.


    Depends on the app's one uses, I guess.



    Only Windows app' I have any experience with is a speech-to-text
    dictation app' named "Dragon NaturallySpeaking Pro" version 9.5 running
    on Vista Ultimate, on MacBook Pro hardware.

    It is much better than any dictation app' available for the Mac.

    Very expensive, however. $900 for the Pro version of Dragon.




    Been considering getting the Dragon medical version at $1,200

    ....and I am a poor slob, struggling along on a S/S pension.



    Having a hard time learning the ins and outs of Windows, but that is
    probably because I have been using Macs exclusively since the early
    days, when I was using an Apple-2, long before "Macs" came on the market
    in 1984.

    What I really miss with Windows is the ability to use Unix, which
    essentially is "included" with modern Macs because their OS is based on
    a Unix variant.

    Mark-

  8. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    Mike wrote:

    > Yep. Advocating Windows is like "advocating" food, water, shelter and
    > sex (not necessarily in that order!). Everyone already has it, so
    > there is no point.


    i've been using computers for 24 years and never used windows. what
    would be the point? so yes, there is no point to advocate it.

  9. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:05:30 UTC, Gene Jones wrote:

    -> Mike wrote:
    ->
    -> > Yep. Advocating Windows is like "advocating" food, water, shelter and
    -> > sex (not necessarily in that order!). Everyone already has it, so
    -> > there is no point.
    ->
    -> i've been using computers for 24 years and never used windows. what
    -> would be the point? so yes, there is no point to advocate it.

    I used NT4 for about 6 months. It was awful. Had to reinstall it at
    least 5 times. It kept corrupting itself. I'm sure they have fixed
    all the problems in 2k, xp and now vista, but I had my fill. No
    windows here either.

    Mark

    --
    From the eComStation of Mark Dodel

    Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org
    Warpstock Europe - Valkenswaard close to Eindhoven, the Netherlands:
    http://www.warpstock.eu

  10. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    Mark Conrad wrote:


    > What I really miss with Windows is the ability to use Unix, which
    > essentially is "included" with modern Macs because their OS is based on
    > a Unix variant.


    Try Cygwin. Not the same arrangement as OSX, but about all you can do with
    Windows.

    http://www.cygwin.com/



  11. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    In article
    ,
    Derek Currie wrote:

    > > I run
    > > it on the Vista Ultimate OS. (on my MacBook Pro)
    > >
    > > There is no Mac dictation app' that is anywhere near as accurate as
    > > Dragon, nor one that has as many useful features.

    >
    > Sad to say, that is true.


    Yes. Very interesting post of yours, BTW.

    Gotta run right now, picking up Dragon Medical, (out of state)

    Be back in a few days to add my 2 cents worth to this NG.

    Mark-

  12. Re: Why no advocacy talk?

    In article
    ,
    Derek Currie wrote:

    > > There is no Mac dictation app' that is anywhere near
    > > as accurate as Dragon, nor one that
    > > has as many useful features.

    >
    > Sad to say, that is true.


    Ahh, now I at last have the time to respond properly to your fine post,
    because my hectic trip to pick up Dragon medical is over.


    Just a few general comments. Forgive me ahead of time, as this is going
    to be a l-o-n-g rambling post.



    > Sad to say, that is true. Go talk to David Pogue, who has carpal
    > tunnel syndrome and dictates most of his books and articles
    > published at the New York Times using Dragon Naturally Speaking.


    Did not realize that affliction was all that debilitating.

    David Pogue for certain should know all the tricks for getting the most
    out of Dragon, considering how prolific he is about writing books.




    You certainly know a lot of Dragon history, wish I knew more.

    I think Dragon was first initiated by a small company, back around 1984
    or so, when it was called Dragon Dictate.

    Several companies were involved after that, the only ones I can recall
    are ScanSoft, Lernout & Hauspie, and the present owner Nuance.

    Nuance I think is a big international speech products company based in
    the small country of Belgium, population around 10 million.

    Nuance sells their own speech software, I do not recall the name of
    their speech software, nor do I know how it compares to Dragon.

    I do not know how they handle U.S.A. sales of Dragon, but I get the
    impression that ScanSoft is somehow involved in their U.S. sales.

    I could be entirely wrong about that.



    > But thanks to the move to Intel based hardware I expect
    > I will eventually buy DNS and run
    > using Windows virtualization on my MacBook.


    You will be pleasantly surprised in most all respects, and perhaps a
    tiny bit disappointed in a few minor things.

    For example, recently I dictated a 33 word "test" dictation on a
    partially trained Dragon. (Pro version)

    Below, excluding the asterisk lines, is the raw result
    before I did any correction:

    ************************************************** **
    We speculate that spontaneous destabilization involving
    spatiotemporal nonperiodicity (symmetry breaking) occurs
    in a macroscopically stochastic manner because collectively
    interacting actomyosins generate chaotic dynamics capable of
    amplifying intrinsic microscopic fluctuations to destabilize
    macroscopic conditions.
    ************************************************** **


    Now it just so happened that Dragon got everything correct, right down
    to the parenthesis, period, capitalization.

    Patted myself on the back, decided to run the same test again.

    Big Mistake, I should have quit while I was ahead.


    This time, my damn Dragon made _one_ mistake. It kept insisting that
    whenever I spoke "manner" that I really meant "matter".

    No amount of re-training could dissuade my pet Dragon otherwise!!!


    When I say "manner", MY Dragon is going to print "matter", come hell or
    high water.

    Oh I admit that dictation conditions were not ideal:

    My 78 year old voice was cracking.

    I was dictating into a tiny Sony digital recorder
    model ICD-MX20 instead of directly into my computer.

    My false teeth were clacking up and down.

    My pronunciation of all "s" sounds was distorted, spraying
    all bystanders with spittle every time I spoke any words
    containing the letter "s".



    Nevertheless, any _human_ hearing my voice could easily tell the
    difference between "manner" and "matter", so Dragon should be able to do
    likewise, dammit.


    Those sorts of flaky errors still plague Dragon, and all other speech
    app's also, plus the usual chronic problem of _all_ speech app's not
    being able to handle homonyms.


    All the above ranting and raving shows why it is _imperative_ that
    speech app's have quick and intuitive means to correct mistakes.

    Unfortunately, only the high priced versions of Dragon such as the "Pro"
    version have adequate correction features.

    Even those high priced versions could use more and better correction
    features.



    Don't let my sour grapes dissuade you from buying Dragon.



    Few words of advice, which you already probably know.

    1) Ignore the lowest cost "Standard" version, get at least the
    intermediate priced "Preferred" version, you will be
    happier in the long run.

    2) Buy an external USB "sound pod", which runs about $20

    Reason is that the microphone signal is very weak, therefore any
    electrical racket picked up by the Macs _internal_ sound card will
    radically degrade the weak signal from your microphone, leading to all
    sorts of mistakes in your text.

    Sound pod can be bought at eMicrophones, as long as you are careful to
    not get sucked into buying anything else there.

    The two mini phone jacks from the Dragon supplied headset microphone
    plug into one side of the sound pod.

    Other side of the sound pod has a USB cable that plugs into the Mac.

    The "sound pod" is sometimes called a "translator". It is basically an
    external sound card, which bypasses the Macs regular internal sound card.


    Mine is called a translator, it is made by:

    "VXI Corporation Parrott U"

    It is a full duplex model, as contrasted to some other lower priced
    sound pods that are only half duplex.

    The difference is, that with full duplex, you can use a headset to hear
    any audio played back from Dragon - - - otherwise you would have to use
    the Macs internal speakers to listen to the playback.

    Mark-

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