curious fact - Microsoft Windows

This is a discussion on curious fact - Microsoft Windows ; While restarting Outlook, saintly1 grumbled: > These four companies are sending jobs overseas at a high rate to > India/China/Russia: > 1. HP > 2. IBM > 3. Cisco > 4. Sun > > As it happens, the following four ...

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Thread: curious fact

  1. Spurious correlation

    While restarting Outlook, saintly1 grumbled:

    > These four companies are sending jobs overseas at a high rate to
    > India/China/Russia:
    > 1. HP
    > 2. IBM
    > 3. Cisco
    > 4. Sun
    >
    > As it happens, the following four companies are sponsors of the Free
    > Software Foundation, which according to its publicly available tax
    > form has $1,000,000 or so in assets.
    > 1. HP
    > 2. IBM
    > 3. Cisco
    > 4. Sun


    Spurious correlation.

    --
    Windows desktops and servers can find a safe haven on a
    GNU/Linux/FreeBSD network!

  2. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:02:43 +0100, Peter Hayes wrote:

    > Nobody wrote:
    >
    >> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:25:34 -0400, Donn Miller wrote:
    >>
    >>> BlaBla wrote:
    >>>> saintly1 wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>These four companies are sending jobs overseas at a high rate to
    >>>>>India/China/Russia:
    >>>>>1. HP
    >>>>>2. IBM
    >>>>>3. Cisco
    >>>>>4. Sun
    >>>
    >>> [snip]
    >>>
    >>>> Big deal. It's about time 3rd world countries cease being just that and
    >>>> catch up to us.
    >>>
    >>> They won't, because they're still working for extremely low wages. And

    >>
    >> If you look in to the Indian market place you find that whilst those
    >> workers are getting less wages than their equivalent counterparts in the
    >> west, the cost of living is lower so they are actually middle class
    >> workers.
    >>
    >> It comes down to the fact that western society has a higher cost of
    >> living so the workers expect a higher salary in order to be able to live
    >> in those countries which in turn raises the costs for the businesses
    >> based in western countries.

    >
    > Western cost of living is driven by such things as health and safety issues
    > and better infrastructure paid for by higher taxes.
    >


    More like the cost of every day products which are driven by the
    massive handshakes handed out to fat cat bosses at the top of industry.

    >> So how long will it take the cost of living to rise in India before the
    >> workers start demanding higher salaries, which in turn will raise the
    >> cost of highering staff in those countries?

    >
    > It doesn't matter. When India prices itself out of the market somewhere
    > else will take over, China maybe, then when China prices itself out of the
    > market the jobs will move, probably to Africa.
    >


    And finally it will go full circle and jobs will move back to the poorer
    sections of the western world, like Sunderland, so it can start all over
    again.

    >> You can be sure that the price of consumer goods will rise as the middle
    >> class salaries rise and the middle class market increases.
    >>
    >>> the outsourcing thing is only temporary, I think, until the economy here
    >>> picks up. Once the economy starts to improve, companies will still
    >>> outsource, but I think not as much. I don't think any company really
    >>> wants to send work overseas, but some have no other choice, because the
    >>> economy is still mired in a slump.

    >
    > You think so?
    >
    > Management have discovered that communications technology allows them to
    > outsource wherever they wish, all that'll happen is that they'll chase the
    > lowest quality service they can get away with at the lowest price they can
    > negotiate. Means a bigger BMW for the bosses, and for 99% of them that's
    > the bottom line. Never mind that someone in an Indonesia directory
    > enquiries call centre doesn't know what Woolworths or Man U is...
    >
    > This particular genie's out of the bottle and it won't ever return, at
    > least not until wages around the globe are comparable, and that'll take
    > many years.



  3. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:37:56 -0400, Donn Miller wrote:
    >
    >
    > Alan Connor wrote:
    >
    >> So? He still has raised a valid point.
    >>
    >> The progressiveness of GNU/FSF is obviously smoke and mirrors to some degree
    >> or another.

    >
    > I agree, but I still find gcc and the GNU toolchain highly useful. That
    > much alone is worth it for me to support the FSF.


    Indeed. (if only they would stick to "core" programs and leave the "user-
    friendly" stuff to others)

    I find Stallman's
    > redefinitions of certain terms disagreeable at times, but his
    > philosophies are very interesting. I don't think they're the be-all
    > end-all, but the GPL provides a nice balance with other licenses that
    > are, in Stallman's view, "less free". I don't think companies like MS
    > are above stealing GPL'd code, and I think they can get away with some
    > of it. For example, GPL'd code can be recoded and re-arranged to make
    > it less obvious theft has occured. For loops can be recoded into while
    > loops, variable names can be changed, filenames can be changed, and the
    > code itself can be re-ordered.
    >
    > Nevertheless, the movement is probably just as important as the license.


    Even with the GPL, M$ has, and will steal code from FSF. So why even worry
    about it?

    Send the lawyers packing and get on with the Hurd....

    --
    Alan C
    Posts with sigs of > 4 lines, or not in plain text, are dumped by my filters.

  4. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:29:46 -0600, ray wrote:
    >
    >
    > saintly1 wrote:
    >> These four companies are sending jobs overseas at a high rate to
    >> India/China/Russia:
    >> 1. HP
    >> 2. IBM
    >> 3. Cisco
    >> 4. Sun
    >>
    >> As it happens, the following four companies are sponsors of the Free
    >> Software Foundation, which according to its publicly available tax
    >> form has $1,000,000 or so in assets.
    >> 1. HP
    >> 2. IBM
    >> 3. Cisco
    >> 4. Sun

    >
    > And your point would be??? Possibly guilt by association? Do you suppose
    > they send jobs overseas because they support FSF; or do they support FSF
    > because they send jobs overseas?
    >


    His point is that no corporation gives money without strings attached. At
    the very least, the FSF will have to refrain from criticising these
    corporations or any policies it may have.

    There are two ways to endorse a company: Give it money and take its money.

    --
    Alan C
    Posts with sigs of > 4 lines, or not in plain text, are dumped by my filters.

  5. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:31:31 GMT, john bailo wrote:
    >
    >
    > You, ray, assert:
    >
    >> And your point would be??? Possibly guilt by association? Do you suppose
    >> they send jobs overseas because they support FSF; or do they support FSF
    >> because they send jobs overseas?

    >
    > do you pointy heads ever consider
    > that sending jobs whose technological
    > merit has evaporated overseas could
    > be a good thing?
    >
    > why should the consumer bear the
    > burden of paying for something
    > that could be done a lot cheaper
    > by someone else?
    >


    Because he doesn't want his neighbor on welfare?

    --
    Alan C
    Posts with sigs of > 4 lines, or not in plain text, are dumped by my filters.

  6. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:18:05 +0000, Christopher Browne wrote:


    > If you knew you would lose the severance package, are you truly so
    > certain that you would talk?


    Yes. Loudly.

  7. Re: Spurious correlation

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:04:07 -0500, Linønut wrote:
    >
    >
    > While restarting Outlook, saintly1 grumbled:
    >
    >> These four companies are sending jobs overseas at a high rate to
    >> India/China/Russia:
    >> 1. HP
    >> 2. IBM
    >> 3. Cisco
    >> 4. Sun
    >>
    >> As it happens, the following four companies are sponsors of the Free
    >> Software Foundation, which according to its publicly available tax
    >> form has $1,000,000 or so in assets.
    >> 1. HP
    >> 2. IBM
    >> 3. Cisco
    >> 4. Sun

    >
    > Spurious correlation.
    >


    Wrong. Obviously.

    --
    Alan C
    Posts with sigs of > 4 lines, or not in plain text, are dumped by my filters.

  8. Re: curious fact

    Alan Connor writes:

    > Even with the GPL, M$ has, and will steal code from FSF. So why even
    > worry about it?


    Proof?

    --
    David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

  9. Re: curious fact

    Alan Connor writes:

    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:11:42 +0200, Roy Culley wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> begin ,
    >> wise@saintly.com (saintly1) writes:
    >>
    >> aka plinius@mail.com (flarkblark)

    >
    > So? He still has raised a valid point.
    >
    > The progressiveness of GNU/FSF is obviously smoke and mirrors to
    > some degree or another.
    >
    > Don't shoot the messenger, he didn't create the problem.


    The Free Software Foundation is involved in creating and advocating
    Free Software. That's why they have called themselves the "Free
    Software Foundation." They aren't in the business of protecting
    American jobs.

    Jason

  10. Re: curious fact

    Alan Connor writes:

    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:29:46 -0600, ray wrote:
    >
    > > And your point would be??? Possibly guilt by association? Do you
    > > suppose they send jobs overseas because they support FSF; or do
    > > they support FSF because they send jobs overseas?
    > >

    >
    > His point is that no corporation gives money without strings
    > attached. At the very least, the FSF will have to refrain from
    > criticising these corporations or any policies it may have.


    The FSF is very comfortable with biting the hand that feeds it. That
    is why it has no reliable source of income.

    --
    David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

  11. Re: curious fact

    Nobody wrote:

    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:02:43 +0100, Peter Hayes wrote:
    >
    >> Nobody wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:25:34 -0400, Donn Miller wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> BlaBla wrote:
    >>>>> saintly1 wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>These four companies are sending jobs overseas at a high rate to
    >>>>>>India/China/Russia:
    >>>>>>1. HP
    >>>>>>2. IBM
    >>>>>>3. Cisco
    >>>>>>4. Sun
    >>>>
    >>>> [snip]
    >>>>
    >>>>> Big deal. It's about time 3rd world countries cease being just that
    >>>>> and catch up to us.
    >>>>
    >>>> They won't, because they're still working for extremely low wages.
    >>>> And
    >>>
    >>> If you look in to the Indian market place you find that whilst those
    >>> workers are getting less wages than their equivalent counterparts in
    >>> the west, the cost of living is lower so they are actually middle class
    >>> workers.
    >>>
    >>> It comes down to the fact that western society has a higher cost of
    >>> living so the workers expect a higher salary in order to be able to
    >>> live in those countries which in turn raises the costs for the
    >>> businesses based in western countries.

    >>
    >> Western cost of living is driven by such things as health and safety
    >> issues and better infrastructure paid for by higher taxes.
    >>

    >
    > More like the cost of every day products which are driven by the
    > massive handshakes handed out to fat cat bosses at the top of industry.


    That too. Although it's only a tiny percentage it really pisses people off
    to see these people paid excessive amounts for failure.

    >>> So how long will it take the cost of living to rise in India before the
    >>> workers start demanding higher salaries, which in turn will raise the
    >>> cost of highering staff in those countries?

    >>
    >> It doesn't matter. When India prices itself out of the market somewhere
    >> else will take over, China maybe, then when China prices itself out of
    >> the market the jobs will move, probably to Africa.
    >>

    >
    > And finally it will go full circle and jobs will move back to the poorer
    > sections of the western world, like Sunderland, so it can start all over
    > again.


    Somewhere along the line things will even themselves out. The richer
    countries will become poorer partly as a result of the loss of millions of
    jobs to poorer economies, which helps to make those poorer economies
    richer.

    It's sort of like an economic low-pass filter.

    --

    Peter

    Palladium is Microsoft's suicide note.

  12. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:06:59 -0600, Jason Earl wrote:
    >
    >
    > Alan Connor writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:11:42 +0200, Roy Culley wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> begin ,
    >>> wise@saintly.com (saintly1) writes:
    >>>
    >>> aka plinius@mail.com (flarkblark)

    >>
    >> So? He still has raised a valid point.
    >>
    >> The progressiveness of GNU/FSF is obviously smoke and mirrors to
    >> some degree or another.
    >>
    >> Don't shoot the messenger, he didn't create the problem.

    >
    > The Free Software Foundation is involved in creating and advocating
    > Free Software. That's why they have called themselves the "Free
    > Software Foundation." They aren't in the business of protecting
    > American jobs.
    >
    > Jason


    So because they don't have the word "ethical" in their title, they are
    exempt from ethical behavior?

    But of course, what you say isn't true at all, if it were THEIR jobs on
    the line....

    --
    Alan C
    Posts with sigs of > 4 lines, or not in plain text, are dumped by my filters.

  13. Re: curious fact

    Alan Connor writes:

    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:29:46 -0600, ray wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> saintly1 wrote:
    >>> These four companies are sending jobs overseas at a high rate to
    >>> India/China/Russia:
    >>> 1. HP
    >>> 2. IBM
    >>> 3. Cisco
    >>> 4. Sun
    >>>
    >>> As it happens, the following four companies are sponsors of the Free
    >>> Software Foundation, which according to its publicly available tax
    >>> form has $1,000,000 or so in assets.
    >>> 1. HP
    >>> 2. IBM
    >>> 3. Cisco
    >>> 4. Sun

    >>
    >> And your point would be??? Possibly guilt by association? Do you suppose
    >> they send jobs overseas because they support FSF; or do they support FSF
    >> because they send jobs overseas?
    >>

    >
    > His point is that no corporation gives money without strings
    > attached. At the very least, the FSF will have to refrain from
    > criticising these corporations or any policies it may have.


    Clearly you have never dealt with the Free Software Foundation before.
    They are as likely to criticize their friends as they are to criticize
    folks diametrically opposed to them. When it comes to Free Software
    RMS and Co. don't even know the meaning of the word compromise.

    > There are two ways to endorse a company: Give it money and take its
    > money.


    Companies are like any other human corporation. Some things they do
    are good, and some bad.

    Jason

  14. Re: curious fact

    Alan Connor writes:

    > On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:31:31 GMT, john bailo wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >> You, ray, assert:
    >>
    >>> And your point would be??? Possibly guilt by association? Do you suppose
    >>> they send jobs overseas because they support FSF; or do they support FSF
    >>> because they send jobs overseas?

    >>
    >> do you pointy heads ever consider
    >> that sending jobs whose technological
    >> merit has evaporated overseas could
    >> be a good thing?
    >>
    >> why should the consumer bear the
    >> burden of paying for something
    >> that could be done a lot cheaper
    >> by someone else?
    >>

    >
    > Because he doesn't want his neighbor on welfare?


    Folks in the US can always get work. It may not be glamorous work,
    and it may not pay terribly well, but chances are very good that it
    will pay better than even a good job in India.

    What, you don't believe that Indians have a right to good jobs too?

    Jason

  15. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:34:23 +0100, Peter Hayes wrote:
    >
    >
    > Nobody wrote:
    >> again.

    >
    > Somewhere along the line things will even themselves out. The richer
    > countries will become poorer partly as a result of the loss of millions of
    > jobs to poorer economies, which helps to make those poorer economies
    > richer.
    >
    > It's sort of like an economic low-pass filter.
    >


    You nailed it, Peter: The main reason that the U.S. and Europe/Japan/Common-
    wealth are in a recession is that they are having to share the world's wealth
    with other countries now.

    Better get used to it.

    --
    Alan C
    Posts with sigs of > 4 lines, or not in plain text, are dumped by my filters.

  16. Re: curious fact

    In article
    David Kastrup wrote:

    >Alan Connor writes:
    >
    >> Even with the GPL, M$ has, and will steal code from FSF. So why even
    >> worry about it?

    >
    >Proof?


    There is non, just a rant from a linux zealot that nobody listens to.

    Look at the newsgroup that the **** came from.


  17. Re: curious fact

    You, Mark, assert:

    > oh, god, i crave your ass,
    > my latent tendencies make
    > me filled with lust
    > please, please, let me express
    > my sexual urges, and free
    > myself from my male body.


    mmm. ok. but go do it in redmond.

    not here.


  18. Re: curious fact

    On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 14:59:45 -0600, Jason Earl wrote:
    >
    >
    > Alan Connor writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:31:31 GMT, john bailo wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> You, ray, assert:
    >>>
    >>>> And your point would be??? Possibly guilt by association? Do you suppose
    >>>> they send jobs overseas because they support FSF; or do they support FSF
    >>>> because they send jobs overseas?
    >>>
    >>> do you pointy heads ever consider
    >>> that sending jobs whose technological
    >>> merit has evaporated overseas could
    >>> be a good thing?
    >>>
    >>> why should the consumer bear the
    >>> burden of paying for something
    >>> that could be done a lot cheaper
    >>> by someone else?
    >>>

    >>
    >> Because he doesn't want his neighbor on welfare?

    >
    > Folks in the US can always get work. It may not be glamorous work,
    > and it may not pay terribly well, but chances are very good that it
    > will pay better than even a good job in India.
    >
    > What, you don't believe that Indians have a right to good jobs too?
    >
    > Jason


    They have a right to create good lives for themselves. The idea that
    this can only be done with "jobs" is quite erroneous.

    You are a typically arrogant Westerner, assuming that your culture is
    the only valid one, and that everyone on the planet has to live like
    you.

    Beneath your show of compassion is nothing but the desire to exploit
    the hell out of these people.

    --
    Alan C
    Posts with sigs of > 4 lines, or not in plain text, are dumped by my filters.

  19. Re: curious fact

    In article <61aa092bdf57b5300053deeeb5b1c2f3@news.teranews.com>
    "john bailo" wrote:

    >You, Mark, assert:
    >
    >> oh, god, i crave your ass,
    >> my latent tendencies make
    >> me filled with lust
    >> please, please, let me express
    >> my sexual urges, and free
    >> myself from my male body.

    >
    >mmm. ok. but go do it in redmond.
    >
    >not here.


    Nice going Bailo, editing my posts?
    What else is new?

    You got no ethics no guts to admit your mistakes and lies.
    Your only way out of this is your childish crap and post editing.

    Let's see how you will deny this in the future, dumbass.


  20. Re: curious fact

    Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing when Alan Connor wrote:
    > His point is that no corporation gives money without strings attached. At
    > the very least, the FSF will have to refrain from criticising these
    > corporations or any policies it may have.


    Richard Stallman has historically had few difficulties criticizing
    anyone he chooses over anything he chooses.

    This is one of the reasons why FSF funding has been pretty _scarce_,
    all in all. That they have a _mere_ million dollars when IBM and HP
    and Intel such have been spending _millions_ on Linux-related stuff is
    an evidence of this.

    A million dollars may seem a lot to you; if there are 10 million users
    of Linux (likely severely understating things), that indicates that
    they consider that the FSF is of such _little_ importance that they
    haven't given so much as a thin dime to it.
    --
    let name="cbbrowne" and tld="acm.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;;
    http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html
    "``Normal'' people don't like things to be powerful or scalable or
    reusable, just pretty." -- posterkid (posterkid@psnw.com)

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