Re: How much will Microsoft be fined? - Microsoft Windows

This is a discussion on Re: How much will Microsoft be fined? - Microsoft Windows ; phil hunt wrote: > I tihnk it's unlikely the fine owuld be that big, but it would > certainly have to be sizable, otherwise given the amount of money > Microsoft have, they would be effectively unpunished. So I think ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

  1. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    phil hunt wrote:

    > I tihnk it's unlikely the fine owuld be that big, but it would
    > certainly have to be sizable, otherwise given the amount of money
    > Microsoft have, they would be effectively unpunished. So I think the
    > fine will be around EUR 500 million.


    If the EU decides agains MS then why wouldn't they be fined the
    maximum? They've shown no remorse and will continue pursuing very
    anti-competitive behaviour.

    --
    Thanks,
    Alex Kemp (loose \lessspam-\ for email)


  2. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    In article <8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>,
    Michael Vondung wrote:

    > On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:23:51 +0100, Alex Kemp
    > wrote:
    >
    > > If the EU decides agains MS then why wouldn't they be fined the
    > >maximum? They've shown no remorse and will continue pursuing very
    > >anti-competitive behaviour.

    >
    > But not always very successful. The courts turned the EUC down
    > previously, so they have to be a bit careful or it damages their
    > credibility.
    >
    > I'm going to say something strange, and it'll get me flamed,
    > especially since I type this on my work-workstation, which runs under
    > Windows. Anyway, to be honest, I don't really understand what the
    > problem is. So, Microsoft bundles their product with their own Media
    > Player. It doesn't seem very democratic to me that they should be
    > forced to include products of competing companies. That's a bit, well,
    > communist? I just find it strange (using simple common sense here, not
    > any global, economic considerations) that MS should be forced to
    > distribute other company's products.



    Kinda got a point there. Apple bundles the Quicktime player with it's
    OS, and doesn't include RealPlayer or Windows Media Player. It's not
    like anyone who wants Realplayer or Quicktime is going to have trouble
    getting it...


    > Don't get me wrong, I don't care for monopolies, but I tend to feel
    > that the markt should be given a chance to regulate itself, without
    > governments putting their fingers into everything.



    Well, I dunno about *that*. Taking advantage of unpublished APIs and
    other features to make something work 'better' is very easy to do when
    you control the OS as well as the competing application. I don't care
    about the media player issue nearly as much as the leveraging their
    client dominance to expand their position in the server space.


    > Linux, FreeBSD and
    > other free operating systems *are* gaining ground, even dominate some
    > segments, and that's a result of the dynamics of the market.
    > Eventually, I feel, "things" will balance themselves, if left alone.



    In a competitive market with low barriers to entry, that would be the
    case. It's not the current situation, though.

    [zap]

    --
    al Qaeda delenda est

  3. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    Michael Vondung wrote in message news:<8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>...
    > On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:23:51 +0100, Alex Kemp
    > wrote:
    >
    > > If the EU decides agains MS then why wouldn't they be fined the
    > >maximum? They've shown no remorse and will continue pursuing very
    > >anti-competitive behaviour.

    >
    > But not always very successful. The courts turned the EUC down
    > previously, so they have to be a bit careful or it damages their
    > credibility.
    >
    > I'm going to say something strange, and it'll get me flamed,
    > especially since I type this on my work-workstation, which runs under
    > Windows. Anyway, to be honest, I don't really understand what the
    > problem is. So, Microsoft bundles their product with their own Media
    > Player. It doesn't seem very democratic to me that they should be
    > forced to include products of competing companies. That's a bit, well,
    > communist? I just find it strange (using simple common sense here, not
    > any global, economic considerations) that MS should be forced to
    > distribute other company's products.

    [snipped]
    > -M.


    The problem is that that since they have a very dominant share of the
    market for PC OS's, they are using that to force competitors in other
    markets out of business.

    Most users are happy with what's delivered on their PC and don't go
    hunting for alternatives if there is something there will do the job.
    This is why IE remains the dominant browser and Netscape is now
    history.

    Every time MS bundles another product with Windows, they are pretty
    much guaranteed to have no competition within a few months for that
    product.

    This is what they were convicted for in the US. Not for being a
    monopoly, but for using that monopoly to muscle into other markets
    unfairly.

    If this is allowed to continue we will end up with the entire computer
    [no make that information] industry controlled by MS.

    What I don't understand is why the music and video industry cannot see
    MS coming. Once MS has a firm grip on the software for playing music,
    they will then be in a position to force the music industry to pay
    ever larger license fees until eventually RIAA will be effectively
    owned by MS.

    Brenton.

  4. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    In <8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>, Michael Vondung wrote:

    > I'm going to say something strange, and it'll get me flamed,
    > especially since I type this on my work-workstation, which runs under
    > Windows. Anyway, to be honest, I don't really understand what the
    > problem is. So, Microsoft bundles their product with their own Media
    > Player. It doesn't seem very democratic to me that they should be
    > forced to include products of competing companies. That's a bit, well,
    > communist? I just find it strange (using simple common sense here, not
    > any global, economic considerations) that MS should be forced to
    > distribute other company's products.


    The point here is that Microsoft is using its desktop monopoly
    to give itself an advantage in servers. One prong is that
    they're introducing MS-only communications protocols at the
    desktop end, so that you *have* to use MS servers if you want
    to connect to those desktops (which, remember, are nearly all
    of the market.)

    Media Player is just one version of this. /All/ of media players
    are just bait for the associated server software. Since MS is
    the one that is guaranteed to be on just about every desktop,
    though, anyone buying a server would have to have a Very Good
    Reason to use anything but an MS server.

    _That_ is what the EU is looking at, and if you read their
    statement about evidence, that's what they've documented.
    The great majority of prospective server customers have made
    purchasing decisions where MS' desktop incompatibility with
    non-MS servers caused the purchaser to buy MS rather than
    the server they would otherwise have preferred.

    --
    | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
    | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
    | for new products or new versions of existing products." |
    end

  5. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    rosignol wrote in message news:...
    > In article <8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>,
    > Michael Vondung wrote:
    > > Linux, FreeBSD and
    > > other free operating systems *are* gaining ground, even dominate some
    > > segments, and that's a result of the dynamics of the market.
    > > Eventually, I feel, "things" will balance themselves, if left alone.

    >
    >
    > In a competitive market with low barriers to entry, that would be the
    > case. It's not the current situation, though.
    >


    Of course it is. The question is whether you like the balance.

  6. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:23:51 +0100, Alex Kemp wrote:
    >phil hunt wrote:
    >
    >> I tihnk it's unlikely the fine owuld be that big, but it would
    >> certainly have to be sizable, otherwise given the amount of money
    >> Microsoft have, they would be effectively unpunished. So I think the
    >> fine will be around EUR 500 million.

    >
    > If the EU decides agains MS then why wouldn't they be fined the
    >maximum?


    I get the feeling the EU would be reluctant to do this as it would
    be seen to be victimising Microsoft.

    --
    A: top posting

    Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?


  7. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    On 8 Aug 2003 01:57:13 -0700, rossb wrote:
    >
    >What I don't understand is why the music and video industry cannot see
    >MS coming. Once MS has a firm grip on the software for playing music,
    >they will then be in a position to force the music industry to pay
    >ever larger license fees until eventually RIAA will be effectively
    >owned by MS.


    Indeed. I think the RIAA members' position is, roughly, to put their
    head in the sand and wish this horrible computing technology would
    just go away and leave their industry alone. Probably it's necessary
    for a whole generation of record company executives to retire and be
    replaced before they "get it".

    --
    A: top posting

    Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?


  8. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:11:29 +0200, Michael Vondung wrote:
    >On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:23:51 +0100, Alex Kemp
    > wrote:
    >
    >> If the EU decides agains MS then why wouldn't they be fined the
    >>maximum? They've shown no remorse and will continue pursuing very
    >>anti-competitive behaviour.

    >
    >But not always very successful. The courts turned the EUC down
    >previously,


    Do you have examples?

    >I'm going to say something strange, and it'll get me flamed,
    >especially since I type this on my work-workstation, which runs under
    >Windows. Anyway, to be honest, I don't really understand what the
    >problem is. So, Microsoft bundles their product with their own Media
    >Player. It doesn't seem very democratic to me that they should be
    >forced to include products of competing companies.


    It's democratic if they are following the will of the people. Since
    most people probably don't have an opinion on this matter, the
    democratic thing to do would be whatever the EU thinks will benefit
    the maximum number of Europeans.

    >That's a bit, well, communist?


    It's interventionalist, but not communist. To be communist it would
    have to put the means of production (which I guess in this case
    would mean the computers Microsoft use, and the source code and
    build tools for their software) in the hands of the state.

    >I just find it strange (using simple common sense here, not
    >any global, economic considerations) that MS should be forced to
    >distribute other company's products.
    >
    >Don't get me wrong, I don't care for monopolies, but I tend to feel
    >that the markt should be given a chance to regulate itself, without
    >governments putting their fingers into everything.


    I'd be happy if govmts stopped passing laws -- for example the EUCD
    and software patents -- that can be used to criminalise competition
    to software products. If that happened, then I'd agree with you that
    the market should be given a chance to work. (Oh, and for the market
    to regulate itself, you'd have to abolish copyright law).

    >Linux, FreeBSD and
    >other free operating systems *are* gaining ground,


    True.

    >even dominate some segments,


    I suspect this may be an exageration.

    >and that's a result of the dynamics of the market.
    >Eventually, I feel, "things" will balance themselves, if left alone.


    See above.

    >But perhaps I give people too much credit: that they have the ability
    >to think for themselves. If I want to RealPlayer, I download it. If I
    >want Quicktime, I download it. Easy. I also use Unix/BSD and Windows
    >for different tasks, and don't do the "there's only ONE real OS!"
    >routine. The *choice* is already there. People need to be educated so
    >that they know about these choices, but forcing for-profit companies
    >to distribute foreign products, that's just alien to me.
    >
    >What I -do- expect from a government is to protect me against stuff
    >like the forsaken TCPA (the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance,
    >http://www.notcpa.de/) and its "successor", but I've seen very little
    >opposition on the government-side here.


    I have no problem with people building a "trusted" (that is to say
    trusted against the user, so one's computer works in the interests
    of its corporate masters) computer and attempting to sell it on the
    free market, as long as other people are also allowed to make, sell
    and have proper computers. Let TCPA compete with real computers on
    the free market, I say, and see how many people buy it!

    > That's the stuff that truly
    >concerns me, not whether Windows comes with Media Player or with Media
    >Player, Real Player and Quicktime. I couldn't care less about that.


    I don't think that's the issue -- more important is MS attempting to
    stop people building software that interoperates with MS products,
    e.g. by obfuscating interfaces. *That* needs to be stamped down on
    hard, IMO.

    --
    A: top posting

    Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?


  9. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    rosignol wrote:

    > In article <8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>,
    > Michael Vondung wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:23:51 +0100, Alex Kemp
    >> wrote:
    >>


    [snip]

    >
    >
    > Well, I dunno about *that*. Taking advantage of unpublished APIs and
    > other features to make something work 'better' is very easy to do when
    > you control the OS as well as the competing application. I don't care
    > about the media player issue nearly as much as the leveraging their
    > client dominance to expand their position in the server space.


    MS was forced to publish these 'unpublished APIs'... Did you take a look
    at them? Most of them that I saw, were simply wrapper functions around
    2 or three other published APIs - in other words convienience functions.
    There was very little there that I was able to find that could not be
    readily accomplished given the standard API. About the only thing that
    I saw, that might be sort of usefull was support for dynamic arrays.
    Basically, the unpublished API stuff is as far as I can tell a load of crap.

    Tom Shelton


  10. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    rossb wrote:

    > Michael Vondung wrote in message news:<8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>...
    >
    >>On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:23:51 +0100, Alex Kemp
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> If the EU decides agains MS then why wouldn't they be fined the
    >>>maximum? They've shown no remorse and will continue pursuing very
    >>>anti-competitive behaviour.

    >>
    >>But not always very successful. The courts turned the EUC down
    >>previously, so they have to be a bit careful or it damages their
    >>credibility.
    >>
    >>I'm going to say something strange, and it'll get me flamed,
    >>especially since I type this on my work-workstation, which runs under
    >>Windows. Anyway, to be honest, I don't really understand what the
    >>problem is. So, Microsoft bundles their product with their own Media
    >>Player. It doesn't seem very democratic to me that they should be
    >>forced to include products of competing companies. That's a bit, well,
    >>communist? I just find it strange (using simple common sense here, not
    >>any global, economic considerations) that MS should be forced to
    >>distribute other company's products.

    >
    > [snipped]
    >
    >>-M.

    >
    >
    > The problem is that that since they have a very dominant share of the
    > market for PC OS's, they are using that to force competitors in other
    > markets out of business.


    For a media player? Please! There are a lot of websites out there - it
    is virtually impossible to surf the web and not come across a website
    that doesn't force you to have QT or RP eventually. Real sucks (at
    least on windows), pure and simple.

    Tom Shelton


  11. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    Tom Shelton wrote:
    > rossb wrote:


    [snip]

    >
    >
    > For a media player? Please! There are a lot of websites out there - it
    > is virtually impossible to surf the web and not come across a website
    > that doesn't force you to have QT or RP eventually. Real sucks (at
    > least on windows), pure and simple.


    I should point out that I don't use WMP much either... I pretty much
    stick to Winamp for music on windows. Much lighter and it works better
    So, about the only time I use WMP is for those comical little video
    clips I get from co-workers periodically.

    Tom Shelton


  12. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    On 8 Aug 2003 06:22:42 -0700, Till M Ruessmann wrote:
    >rosignol wrote in message news:...
    >> In article <8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>,
    >> Michael Vondung wrote:
    >> > Linux, FreeBSD and
    >> > other free operating systems *are* gaining ground, even dominate some
    >> > segments, and that's a result of the dynamics of the market.
    >> > Eventually, I feel, "things" will balance themselves, if left alone.

    >>
    >> In a competitive market with low barriers to entry, that would be the
    >> case. It's not the current situation, though.

    >
    >Of course it is.


    If you think the current situation with software, where a company
    can use bad laws to make it illegal for anyone to compete with them,
    is a "competitive market with low barriers to entry", you are wrong.

    --
    A: top posting

    Q: what's the most annoying thing about Usenet?


  13. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    In <66728128.0308080057.358e3729@posting.google.com>, rossb wrote:

    > What I don't understand is why the music and video industry cannot see
    > MS coming. Once MS has a firm grip on the software for playing music,
    > they will then be in a position to force the music industry to pay
    > ever larger license fees until eventually RIAA will be effectively
    > owned by MS.


    Nonsense. MS doesn't think small like that.

    The RIAA accumulated its present degree of power over the
    course of decades because they control the channels of
    distribution for music: disks and radio air time.

    Now they're in the process of handing control of the
    channels of distribution (disks, streaming, and digital
    radio) over to Microsoft. Explain to me again why MS
    would keep them around after that?

    --
    | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
    | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
    | for new products or new versions of existing products." |
    end

  14. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?



    rosignol wrote:

    [Snippperdesnip]


    >
    > Kinda got a point there. Apple bundles the Quicktime player with it's
    > OS, and doesn't include RealPlayer or Windows Media Player. It's not
    > like anyone who wants Realplayer or Quicktime is going to have trouble
    > getting it...
    >


    Does Windows Media player run on Mac OS? I don't know because I could
    get a HP with WinXP on it for free from my former employer. Apart from
    using my olde iMac with Mac OS 8.6 on it, I don't use a Mac anymore;
    traitor me :-(

    I would like to try Mac OS X, but as my iMac has only 64Mb RAM on board
    (extendible to only 128Mb) this is not an option. Unless I buy a new Mac
    of course.


    [Snippperdesnip]

    Nils


  15. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    Nils Zonneveld wrote:

    > I would like to try Mac OS X, but as my iMac has only 64Mb RAM on board
    > (extendible to only 128Mb) this is not an option. Unless I buy a new Mac
    > of course.


    You could try Mac OS X as your iMac can hold 512MB RAM easily, its just
    that larger chips where not on the market when your iMac was introduced.
    check www.macstuff.nl

    But the screen update will seem slow compared to Mac OS 9 or Windows as
    the PDF based enige is kinda like printing to screen, which is nice for
    'What You See Is What You Get' principles, but takes a lot more
    horsepower to make it realtime. Still I prefer Mac OS X over 8.6 on a
    233MHz machine because of compatibility and multilingual support.
    --
    Dennis SCP

  16. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    begin In <8806jv81sarftja9r5houl76i7tauhqbif@4ax.com>, on 08/08/2003
    at 04:11 AM, Michael Vondung said:

    >Don't get me wrong, I don't care for monopolies, but I tend to feel
    >that the markt should be given a chance to regulate itself,


    Only government is big enough to remove the m$ shackles from the
    invisible had.

    >It doesn't seem very democratic to me that they should be forced to
    >include products of competing companies.


    Au contraire, it isn't very democratic to allow them to ride roughshod
    over all and sundry. The antitrust laws were passed by a democratic
    process.

    >That's a bit, well, communist?


    How is government control over the economy worse than microsoft
    control over the economy? The voter has more influence on the first
    than on the second. Besides, making corporations obey the law is not
    the same thing as government ownership of the means of production. If
    Bill Gates breaks into your house, is it communism when an agent of
    the government arrests him?

    >The *choice* is already there.


    Bought a PC in the last decade? How easy was it to avoid paying for a
    copy of windoze that you didn't want?

    >but forcing for-profit companies
    >to distribute foreign products, that's just alien to me.


    How is that different from forcing a convicted criminal to perform
    community service?

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

    Any unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.

    Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not reply
    to spamtrap@library.lspace.org



  17. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?



    Dennis SCP wrote:
    > Nils Zonneveld wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I would like to try Mac OS X, but as my iMac has only 64Mb RAM on board
    >>(extendible to only 128Mb) this is not an option. Unless I buy a new Mac
    >>of course.

    >
    >
    > You could try Mac OS X as your iMac can hold 512MB RAM easily, its just
    > that larger chips where not on the market when your iMac was introduced.
    > check www.macstuff.nl
    >
    > But the screen update will seem slow compared to Mac OS 9 or Windows as
    > the PDF based enige is kinda like printing to screen, which is nice for
    > 'What You See Is What You Get' principles, but takes a lot more
    > horsepower to make it realtime. Still I prefer Mac OS X over 8.6 on a
    > 233MHz machine because of compatibility and multilingual support.


    Great tips thanks. Probably better than buying a new eMac for EUR 1057
    at Apple shop (although you get MacOS X for free then).

    Nils


  18. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    >>>>> "rossb" == rossb writes:

    rossb> The problem is that that since they have a very dominant
    rossb> share of the market for PC OS's, they are using that to
    rossb> force competitors in other markets out of business.

    rossb> Most users are happy with what's delivered on their PC and
    rossb> don't go hunting for alternatives if there is something
    rossb> there will do the job.

    The more serious problem is: most users simply don't know there is a
    choice. i.e. they don't think it's even POSSIBLE to go hunting for
    alternatives. And since they don't know they can do it, they don't do
    it -- even if they want to.



    --
    Lee Sau Dan u(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)

    E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
    Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

  19. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Vondung writes:

    Michael> Don't get me wrong, I don't care for monopolies, but I
    Michael> tend to feel that the markt should be given a chance to
    Michael> regulate itself,

    No. If you know the theory about how the market works, you should
    have learnt that the market doesn't work anymore in the presence of a
    monopoly. The market works because there is competition, driving the
    participants to optimize their offerings. With a monopoly, this
    mechanism collapses.


    Michael> without governments putting their fingers into
    Michael> everything.

    Any government exercising market economy knows that the market doesn't
    work when there's a monopoly. So, they regulate it.



    --
    Lee Sau Dan u(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)

    E-mail: danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de
    Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

  20. Re: How much will Microsoft be fined?

    begin In , on 08/10/2003
    at 11:19 AM, Michael Vondung said:

    >The difference is that Microsoft didn't put a gun under someone's
    >nose and demanded their money.


    Neither does a burglar or an embezzler. They violated the antitrust
    laws by telling dealers that if they wanted a good price on windoze
    then they had to bundle it with their machines. Not only were they
    convicted, but the appeals court sustained the conviction.

    >Like it or not, but Windows is (in general)
    >a whole lot easier to install than Linux or FreeBSD.


    That's not my experience.

    >Regarding usability (from an end-user's perspective) Windows XP is
    >years ahead of *any* Linux distro or BSD version.


    That's also not my experience.

    >Linux/BSD hackers


    I'm neither.

    --
    Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

    Any unsolicited bulk E-mail will be subject to legal action. I reserve the
    right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.

    Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not reply
    to spamtrap@library.lspace.org



+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast