Ôçí/On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:25:24 +0100,ï(ç) Frodo Morris
Ýãñáøå/wrote:

> Tarquin Mills wrote:
>> Before you point out that you can ad to the PC below is comparison with
>> addons (prices from Personal Computer World and YS magazines).
>>
>>
>> Original IBM PC Sinclair ZX Spectrum
>> launched in UK 1984 1982
>> cost (RAM) $1295 (16K) £175 (48K)
>> extra RAM $325 (32K) free
> Erm, no; extra RAM was impossible for the Spectrum, not free. The PC
> could be upgraded to 640k. You could wait til the 128k speccy came out,
> but it *did* require buying a whole new computer.

Technically no. Remember the "Mark of the Unicorn"? (I think it was
microGen


>> display $345 (monochrome) free (colour)
> Only if you steal televisions. How much was a colour TV in 1982? For
> instance, the TV80? ;-)

I don't think that the TV80 was colour :-) (Then again I might me wrong...
seriously now)


>> colour $300 free
>> sound poor better
> THE PC had a mono beeper, the Speccy had a mono beeper.
>> RS232 and (Network) $150 (+???) £50 (included)

I think he meant packaged together. As far as I can remember we didn't have
(and still haven't) RS232 + NET cards as ONE product on the PC like the I/F
1

> If it's included, how does it cost an extra GBP50?

See above

>> Parallel port & cable $205 £45 (Kempston)

> Actually, I've never seen a PC that didn't come with a serial/parallel
> ISA card, but I suppose I'll take your word for this one.

I have.... Used to work at a computer store

>> Printer $755 £60
> You could write an MS-DOS driver for the ZX printer, or you could buy an
> $800 printer and connect it to your Speccy.

You COULDN'T write an MS-DOS driver for a ZX printer. First of all IIRC
(it's been awhile) the ZX printer connected to the Spectrum's Edge port.



>> Business Software £300 to £900 <=£25
>> Adventure game $40 £10 (Level 9)
>> Disk drive & interface $790 (5.25") £199 (3.5", Opus)
> *sigh* PCs did come with FDDs pre-shipped, y'know...

In 1983 you could STILL get the IBM PC Model A (64K Ram, Tape Recorder NO
Drives) - However Tarquin here is comparing two different eras (and
therefore two different prices)

>> Joystick $50 £10 (AGF)
>> Hard Disc (MFM) same same
> Difference being that many PCs came with at least a 20Mb HDD, the
> speccies didn't.

Nope in 1983 you would be lucky with a 5 Mb HDD not a 20. And of course the
price unlike Tarquin said on the "comparison" was huge. IIRC about $1,000
for a 5 Meg HDD

>> Total $4205 (£2804) £395 (Opus
>> interface
>> or in M$ currency conversion £4205 includes some of
>> the above)
>> The ZX Spectrum easier to buy
>
> ? Might be cheaper [which I'm prepared to accept even though I disagree
> with your figures above], doesn't make it easier. IBM would've knocked a
> huge %age off if you bought a whole suite of PCs, doubt Sir Clive
> wuold've done the same somehow.

Nope actually Flexible marketing was something unknown for IBM at the
time... and one of the reasons why compatibles were so successful.

>
>> and sold millions, a GUI and better versions were developed. Many
>> thousands of apps run natively on it, plus many more via CP/M etc.
>
> Same is true of the PC of course, where you have to remove the word
> 'CP/M' and use the name of Microsoft's kludgy clone, MS-DOS. What you
> also have to remember is that the iBM pc was a Business Machine, whereas
> the speccy was a home computer. I doubt many medium->large enterprises
> ran their accounts on a speccy in the mid 1980s. If you want to compare
> like with like, then a comparison between the PC and the QL is in order.
> The QL was, IMHO (as an owner), a good concept badly (==hurriedly)
> implemented. Unless you're about to tell us how fantastically superior
> the microdrives are to hard disks...
>
Actually 20 years later we CAN say they are. How many 1983 Hard disks you
know working today? My microdrives are still alive and kicking thank you
very much... And if you took good care of them (which you could by keeping
the mechanism lubricated and the tapes in their protective cover they would
be with you for a long time.... :-)


--
One Motorola per day, makes the doctor go away :-)
For mail remove the obvious crap from the email below:
mailto:ql@dokos-grCHOKEONTHIS=SPAMMER.net

"Sinclair QL" wrote in message
newsprsl3nutm6zy5e1@nntp...

> Actually 20 years later we CAN say they are. How many 1983 Hard
disks you
> know working today?

Just thought I'd let you know... I've got a 5Mb Rodime ST412 drive
here that works just fine thank you. It's built like a brick and I'm
sure I see the lights in the house dim when it's spinning up but it
still works.

MikeW

Ôçí/On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:14:01 +0100,ï(ç) Mike Wynne
Ýãñáøå/wrote:

>
> "Sinclair QL" wrote in message
> newsprsl3nutm6zy5e1@nntp...
>
>> Actually 20 years later we CAN say they are. How many 1983 Hard
> disks you
>> know working today?
>
> Just thought I'd let you know... I've got a 5Mb Rodime ST412 drive
> here that works just fine thank you. It's built like a brick and I'm
> sure I see the lights in the house dim when it's spinning up but it
> still works.

Wow Rodime! I haven't heard that brand in a looooonnnggg time. I used to
have a 20Mb SCSI Rodime on my Thor XVI
Well you are probably a notable exception. However to say things as they
are, 5 (and 10) Meg HDDs were serviceable (ie a bathroom after you filled
it with steam and let it cool offmade a good "clean room" which could let
you service a couple of things. I do still have a 5Meg Seagate myself
(rarely used however and that's the point... RARELY used as opposed to MDVs
being regularily used) that is RLL formatted to 10 Megs -well almost-(WD
controllers RULE) that still works -but had undergone "surgery" at one time
(stuck stepper motor ;-)
>
> MikeW
>
>
>



--
One Motorola per day, makes the doctor go away :-)
For mail remove the obvious crap from the email below:
mailto:ql@dokos-grCHOKEONTHIS=SPAMMER.net

Ôçí/On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:14:01 +0100,ï(ç) Mike Wynne
Ýãñáøå/wrote:

>
> "Sinclair QL" wrote in message
> newsprsl3nutm6zy5e1@nntp...
>
>> Actually 20 years later we CAN say they are. How many 1983 Hard
> disks you
>> know working today?
>
> Just thought I'd let you know... I've got a 5Mb Rodime ST412 drive
> here that works just fine thank you. It's built like a brick and I'm
> sure I see the lights in the house dim when it's spinning up but it
> still works.

Wow Rodime! I haven't heard that brand in a looooonnnggg time. I used to
have a 20Mb SCSI Rodime on my Thor XVI
Well you are probably a notable exception. However to say things as they
are, 5 (and 10) Meg HDDs were serviceable (ie a bathroom after you filled
it with steam and let it cool offmade a good "clean room" which could let
you service a couple of things. I do still have a 5Meg Seagate myself
(rarely used however and that's the point... RARELY used as opposed to MDVs
being regularily used) that is RLL formatted to 10 Megs -well almost-(WD
controllers RULE) that still works -but had undergone "surgery" at one time
(stuck stepper motor ;-)
>
> MikeW
>
>
>



--
One Motorola per day, makes the doctor go away :-)
For mail remove the obvious crap from the email below:
mailto:ql@dokos-grCHOKEONTHIS=SPAMMER.net

In my original article I forgot to mention the second best argument
against the IBM PC and clones. Many years after it's launch it was still
easier to buy software that would run on an unexpanded 48K Spectrum,
however the weekend my father gave me an XT clone I realised from PC Plus
that it was already out of date. By 1993 the XT had no support, the
spectrum still did and to a less extent still does.
The fact that no PC users from comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy have attacked
the idea that the Speccy is best shows they know the PC is a poor computer,
and only thanks to the IBM monopoly became dominant. Below I have answered
some questions by Frodo Morris whoses own site attack the Bill Gates
monopoly.

Frodo Morris wrote:
> Tarquin Mills wrote:
> > Before you point out that you can ad to the PC below is comparison with
> > addons (prices from Personal Computer World and YS magazines).
> >
> >
> > Original IBM PC Sinclair ZX Spectrum
> > launched in UK 1984 1982
> > cost (RAM) $1295 (16K) £175 (48K)
> > extra RAM $325 (32K) free
> Erm, no; extra RAM was impossible for the Spectrum, not free. The PC
> could be upgraded to 640k. You could wait til the 128k speccy came out,
> but it *did* require buying a whole new computer.
The reason the 48K RAM on the Spectrum is free is because it is included
with the computer, where as the IBM PC required extra RAM to give it a
simpler amount. There were RAM expansions for the Spectrum such as the
East London Robotics 80KB spectrum conversion mention elsewhere in this
thread. Others include the SoftROM, the Timex speccy clones, and the XK
System that allowed the spectrum to access 4MB RAM and multi-task. I hope
the software from this still exists, as I would like to see it, the last
time I check the company that made them still existed in Cambridge.
Giving the the PC 128KB RAM would have cost $955 a lot more than a 128KB
Spectrum which other advantages than just extra memory.

> > display $345 (monochrome) free (colour)
> Only if you steal televisions. How much was a colour TV in 1982? For
> instance, the TV80? ;-)
A lot of people had colour televisions already (i.e. it's free as do not
need to buy one). If you could not afford a colour television then you
certainly could not afford a IBM PC, you would have bought a ZX81.

> > colour $300 free
> > sound poor better
> THE PC had a mono beeper, the Speccy had a mono beeper.
The Speccy's was used by software better. To this day the only sound output
guaranteed to be support by Wintel hardware and OS is the beeper. Modern
spectrums have more up to date Stereo sound capablities built in.

> > RS232 and (Network) $150 (+???) £50 (included)
> If it's included, how does it cost an extra GBP50?
The network is included with the RS232, i.e. £50 for both.

> > Business Software £300 to £900 <=£25
I notice you do not question this, which caused a lot piracy on the PC.

> > Adventure game $40 £10 (Level 9)
> > Disk drive & interface $790 (5.25") £199 (3.5", Opus)
> *sigh* PCs did come with FDDs pre-shipped, y'know...
Eventually, as did the Spectrum.

> > Joystick $50 £10 (AGF)
> > Hard Disc (MFM) same same
> Difference being that many PCs came with at least a 20Mb HDD, the
> speccies didn't.
Speccies suffered less software bloat as most software was written in
hand optimised assembler.

> > Total $4205 (£2804) £395 (Opus interface
> > or in M$ currency conversion £4205 includes some
> > of the above)
> >
> > The ZX Spectrum easier to buy
> ? Might be cheaper [which I'm prepared to accept even though I disagree
> with your figures above], doesn't make it easier.
The reason the launch of the PC was held back in the UK by 3 years was
because there was a shortage of IBM PCs, as IBM unestimated demand.
Sinclair also had trouble meeting the massive demand for the spectrum,
but he did better.

> > and sold millions, a GUI and better
> > versions were developed. Many thousands of apps run natively on it,
> > plus many more via CP/M etc.
[snip]
> If you want to compare like with like, then a comparison between
I am not doing this, as I know that the PC would not stand a chance.

> the PC and the QL is in order.
> The QL was, IMHO (as an owner), a good concept badly (==hurriedly)
> implemented. Unless you're about to tell us how fantastically superior
> the microdrives are to hard disks...
Microdrive were a floppy/tape replacement not a hard disc replacement,
you could buy HD for the QL.
--
Tarquin Mills

ACCUS (Anglia Classic Computer Users Society)
http://www.planet14.sonow4u.co.uk/comp/accus/

"Tarquin Mills" wrote:

> The fact that no PC users from comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy have attacked
> the idea that the Speccy is best shows they know the PC is a poor
computer,
> and only thanks to the IBM monopoly became dominant.

It's rather more likely that they're simply not interested in getting into a
no-win argument with a tiresome monomaniac.
You're a very sad man, Tarq. Tell us, have you ever actually kissed a girl?

In alt.destroy.microsoft, I heard Tarquin Mills say:
> In my original article I forgot to mention the second best argument
>against the IBM PC and clones. Many years after it's launch it was still
>easier to buy software that would run on an unexpanded 48K Spectrum,
>however the weekend my father gave me an XT clone I realised from PC Plus
>that it was already out of date. By 1993 the XT had no support, the
>spectrum still did and to a less extent still does.

You have obviously lost touch with reality. Please don't cross-post to adm
anymore; we have enough such participants already.



--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***

You'll get a kick out of this then... http://software.lunacylove.com/