Nanard wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I plan to buy a new PC. A Laptop would be better (I need to do some
> demo, presentation to customers).
>
> I want to use Linux (Mandriva ?) on it.
> The reasons I want it pre-installed :
> - I don't want to reformat, pay for Windows (& loose all licences I
> have paid )
> - I want to be sure all special hardware are working fine with the
> installeld 64 bits Linux distribution : memory card reader, embedded
> webcam, all drivers...
>
> Do you know any store (online), or better : 'real' store (in France)
> where I can find such products ?


It's very hard to find a laptop with a bald drive. Microsoft has a
monopoly on the laptop market.




--
Claude Hopper

? ? ¥

Can't tell about any pre-installed laptop or stores selling them in France but you can hardly escape the MS tax. In fact, the difference is some 20 Euros or so and the installed Windows might come in handy someday.

If you want all hardware to work out of the box, I recommend Intel based systems. That means most parts of the chipset should be intel (CPU, graphics, wireless, etc). I had good experience with an HP Compaq 6710b (Core Duo) and an Asus eeepc 1000 (Atom). Everything I need works without fiddling. What almost never works on laptops are the special (software) keys, though you can script their functionality easily.

You mentioned making space for Linux. Get the gparted live app. You can run it from either a boot CD or (like on the eee pc) a bootable SD card. It shrinks the windows partitions without killing the OS. It even worked with the EFI partition on the eee pc.

good luck

Mark

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:02:18 +0200, Mark Draheim wrote:


> Can't tell about any pre-installed laptop or stores selling them in
> France but you can hardly escape the MS tax. In fact, the difference is
> some 20 Euros or so and the installed Windows might come in handy
> someday.



Jesus, fix your ****ing line length, will ya? One of the lines in your
message is over 400 ****ing characters long. A good practice is to limit
line length to 68-70 characters.

Damn n00bs.


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

Dan C wrote:

> Jesus, fix your ****ing line length, will ya? One of the lines in your
> message is over 400 ****ing characters long. A good practice is to limit
> line length to 68-70 characters.

It is set to 76...

The pleasures of KDE4 betaware...

> Damn n00bs.

;-)

Nanard wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I plan to buy a new PC. A Laptop would be better (I need to do some
> demo, presentation to customers).
>
> I want to use Linux (Mandriva ?) on it.
> The reasons I want it pre-installed :
> - I don't want to reformat, pay for Windows (& loose all licences I
> have paid )
> - I want to be sure all special hardware are working fine with the
> installeld 64 bits Linux distribution : memory card reader, embedded
> webcam, all drivers...
>
> Do you know any store (online), or better : 'real' store (in France)
> where I can find such products ?
you could checkut system76.com, they come with ubuntu but installing
mandriva should not be a problem, and no M$ tax

I don't have any problem with W$ tax. It is 'resonable'. I have more
problems with already installed garbadge like Norton, and other
useless app...

It's just that I need a PC for developpment (Android), and backup
scripts,... is a lot more easy on Linux.
Also a lot better/faster to burn a CD with (for instance) /home/my
than C:\Prog...\Me\My documents and another dir "favorites" and
another dir...

And also I prefear Linux security (for viruses, firewall, etc) than W
$. The shell is also a lot better.

Another reason : for my regular job (not my personnals Android
projects), I need to keep my Unix commands fresh in my mind (they are
so easy to forget !).. and improve my Unix skills.

Another reason : I want to use at least all 4Go of RAM. W$ has some
issue with too much RAM.

But : I would need fun stuff like video-conf (webcam on the laptop),
microphone, SD card,.... working :-)

On Friday 24 October 2008 16:02, someone identifying as *Mark Draheim* wrote
in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> [...] and the installed Windows might come in handy someday.

Indeed, I find that those Windows install/recovery CDs come in very handy
for skeet shooting practice, and I feel particularly exhilarated when doing
so using a portable anti-aircraft missile to assure myself of a successful
hit. I find a Stinger quite suitable in that respect, and I always aim for
the hole in the CD.

You have to hand it to those guys at Microsoft. They make the best target
practice disks in the world.

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

Aragorn wrote:

> Indeed, I find that those Windows install/recovery CDs come in very
> handy for skeet shooting practice, and I feel particularly

:-)

unfortunately, Redmond boosts its profits by cutting down on
production costs, ie they won't even ship CDs and I don't feel
inclined to point a Stinger at the recovery partition :-P

On 2008-10-24, Nanard wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I plan to buy a new PC. A Laptop would be better (I need to do some
> demo, presentation to customers).
>
> I want to use Linux (Mandriva ?) on it.
> The reasons I want it pre-installed :
> - I don't want to reformat, pay for Windows (& loose all licences I
> have paid )
> - I want to be sure all special hardware are working fine with the
> installeld 64 bits Linux distribution : memory card reader, embedded
> webcam, all drivers...
>
> Do you know any store (online), or better : 'real' store (in France)
> where I can find such products ?

There are certainly makers who will ship laptops with no installed OS - eg
in the UK. They don't put
the MS-free options up front, but if you click on 'view system' and then
on 'select' you'll get to see a price list where the 'no OS' option is
shown. Typically, a saving of about £50 compared to the price with XP
Home pre-installed, or more than £100 less than the price with Vista
Ultimate.

This site lists laptops on which Mandriva has been successfully installed,
giving some idea of what works and what doesn't
.

Mandriva pre-installed on an 8GB flash drive might be of interest
.

I believe that Mandriva in France did at one time sell computers with
Mandriva pre-installed, but I can't find anything about that on the
Mandriva web site now.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

Claude Hopper wrote:

> It's very hard to find a laptop with a bald drive. Microsoft has a
> monopoly on the laptop market.

Not any more. You're unlikely to get Mandriva as a pre-install, but there are
plenty of companies providing Ubuntu (Dell for one!) and all the current crop
of sub-notebooks come with Linux pre-installed (often with Windows XP as an
expensive option).

My company recently bought a number of laptops, and we got refunds for the
unused Windoze that they came with.

C.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:02:18 +0200, Mark Draheim wrote:

> If you want all hardware to work out of the box, I recommend Intel based
> systems. That means most parts of the chipset should be intel (CPU,
> graphics, wireless, etc).

That's fair enough, but Linux works perfectly well on AMD systems as
well. The box I'm typing this from has nothing Intel about it and
everything works perfectly.

AMD based laptops are admittedly rarer but are known to work well too.

> I had good experience with an HP Compaq 6710b
> (Core Duo) and an Asus eeepc 1000 (Atom). Everything I need works
> without fiddling. What almost never works on laptops are the special
> (software) keys, though you can script their functionality easily.

Mandriva 2008.1 set up the volume and brightness keys correctly on my
EeePC and on my Acer laptop without any interaction required on my part.

On Friday 24 October 2008 19:04, someone identifying as *Mark Madsen* wrote
in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:02:18 +0200, Mark Draheim wrote:
>
>> If you want all hardware to work out of the box, I recommend Intel based
>> systems. That means most parts of the chipset should be intel (CPU,
>> graphics, wireless, etc).
>
> That's fair enough, but Linux works perfectly well on AMD systems as
> well. The box I'm typing this from has nothing Intel about it and
> everything works perfectly.

I'll second that. And in addition, for those who actually care about
ethics, Intel is also known to not always play things honestly, and to be
in league with Microsoft on a few projects that heavily rely on DRM and
related technology.

On the other hand, AMD, while also being a corporate entity looking to make
a buck, is ethically more correctly behaving and has a soft spot for
GNU/Linux. For instance, AMD autonomously decided to keep the GART in
their 64-bit processors so Linux can use it as an IOMMU.

This was not requested by Linus Torvalds, while all on the other hand
Windows-specific features in the 64-bit AMD processors /were/ explicitly
requested by Microsoft, such as the presence of two segment registers which
are only needed by Windows and are normally not used or required in a
64-bit environment, since 64-bit memory addressing and segmentation are not
compatible.

Just goes to show how good the Microsoft developers really are, when they
explicitly require the inclusion of two obsolete registers in a CPU design
that works perfectly well without them if used with non-Microsoft operating
systems, rather than to modify their kernel code.

Intel does of course also actively support development of the Linux kernel
and is supplying all (or at least almost all) of their driver code as FOSS,
but their motivation at supporting Linux is of a far more opportunistic
nature.

> AMD based laptops are admittedly rarer but are known to work well too.

I'll agree with that as well.

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

Mark Madsen wrote:

> That's fair enough, but Linux works perfectly well on AMD systems as
> well. The box I'm typing this from has nothing Intel about it and
> everything works perfectly.

It was a recommendation because Intel actively supports Linux drivers
for their hardware. Okay, other hardware vendors do that as well. My
point is that when it says Intel Core Duo or whatever chances are good
that it will work. And that is not because of the CPU but the chips
around it. That said, I am writing this on an AMD desktop system built
from scratch, ie I checked available drivers before buying hardware.

> AMD based laptops are admittedly rarer but are known to work well
> too.

They are, most of the time, cheaper and the saving in price often
comes with rather cheap chipsets. Now, they may work perfectly under
Linux but you cannot tell what's inside the computer until you popped
in a live CD.

> Mandriva 2008.1 set up the volume and brightness keys correctly on
> my EeePC and on my Acer laptop without any interaction required on
> my part.

They do work, I know. Well, the key for external VGA does not on my
EEE but it's fairly easy to switch external via xrandr. Killswitches
for wireless gave me pains on numerous laptops, though. And that one
key for both wireless and bluetooth is truly terrible.

cheers

Mark

Aragorn wrote:

> Just goes to show how good the Microsoft developers really are, when they
> explicitly require the inclusion of two obsolete registers in a CPU design
> that works perfectly well without them if used with non-Microsoft operating
> systems, rather than to modify their kernel code.

;-) The "Vista" kernel is the one "written" by Cutler in 1991 - it's /still/
broken! There's nobody left at Redmond capable of writing another one
(they're /buying/ /in/ a kernel for Windoze 7).

C.

On Friday 24 October 2008 19:51, someone identifying as *Christopher Hunter*
wrote in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> Aragorn wrote:
>
>> Just goes to show how good the Microsoft developers really are, when they
>> explicitly require the inclusion of two obsolete registers in a CPU
>> design that works perfectly well without them if used with non-Microsoft
>> operating systems, rather than to modify their kernel code.
>
> ;-) The "Vista" kernel is the one "written" by Cutler in 1991 - it's
> /still/ broken!

Well, it /was/ written by Dave Cutler... for VMS. He simply copy/pasted
it, and he was caught redhanded at DEC while doing so, which resulted in
DEC filing a lawsuit against Microsoft, but this was later on dropped as
Microsoft settled the matter out of court and promised to support DEC's
Alpha processor in Windows NT. ;-)

> There's nobody left at Redmond capable of writing another one
> (they're /buying/ /in/ a kernel for Windoze 7).

From what I've read about it so far - not that I actively look up on
anything Windows-related anymore, but I do keep Slashdot open in a browser
and one does tend to pick up some stuff from there every once in a while -
Windows 7 will actually be called Windows 7 but should more appropriately
be called Windows 6.1, since it'll have an only slightly updated Vista
kernel. ;-)

On the other hand, Microsoft did develop a whole new kernel in-house - or at
least, for as far as I can tell - called Singularity. According to some
rumors, it should have been the base for the new Windows version, but the
problems with Vista and the fear of even more serious compatibility
problems sped up the release of the next Windows version based on the
current generation of NT technology and put Singularity on the backburner
in terms of a public release.

Of course, the latter is just one of the rumors. Another rumor is that it's
supposed to be a Linux-killer character mode server operating system.
Either way, they've been working on it for many years already, and as
always, Microsoft's true intentions with this beast will only surface much,
much later. ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singula...erating_system)

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

Nanard wrote:
> I don't have any problem with W$ tax. It is 'resonable'. I have more
> problems with already installed garbadge like Norton, and other
> useless app...
>
> It's just that I need a PC for developpment (Android), and backup
> scripts,... is a lot more easy on Linux.
> Also a lot better/faster to burn a CD with (for instance) /home/my
> than C:\Prog...\Me\My documents and another dir "favorites" and
> another dir...
>
> And also I prefear Linux security (for viruses, firewall, etc) than W
> $. The shell is also a lot better.
>
> Another reason : for my regular job (not my personnals Android
> projects), I need to keep my Unix commands fresh in my mind (they are
> so easy to forget !).. and improve my Unix skills.
>
> Another reason : I want to use at least all 4Go of RAM. W$ has some
> issue with too much RAM.
>
> But : I would need fun stuff like video-conf (webcam on the laptop),
> microphone, SD card,.... working :-)
system76 machines are 100% compatible with linux, modem wireless webcam
fingerpringreader card reader everything, so no wories and if you need
windows you could just install it but I don't think you do from what you
are saying, althow I could be wrong

ps: I agree with you about norton and all that other junk, an other big
reason whu I gave up winblows.

Aragorn wrote:

> Well, it /was/ written by Dave Cutler... for VMS. He simply copy/pasted
> it, and he was caught redhanded at DEC while doing so, which resulted in
> DEC filing a lawsuit against Microsoft, but this was later on dropped as
> Microsoft settled the matter out of court and promised to support DEC's
> Alpha processor in Windows NT. ;-)

I was there at the time. It was one of the more ignominious periods of
Microsoft's history. They /still/ haven't got over it!

>> There's nobody left at Redmond capable of writing another one
>> (they're /buying/ /in/ a kernel for Windoze 7).

> From what I've read about it so far - not that I actively look up on
> anything Windows-related anymore, but I do keep Slashdot open in a browser
> and one does tend to pick up some stuff from there every once in a while -
> Windows 7 will actually be called Windows 7 but should more appropriately
> be called Windows 6.1, since it'll have an only slightly updated Vista
> kernel.

Not at all - there was a specification issued and tenders were invited for the
construction of a new kernel for Windows. There is actually no such thing at
a "Vista kernel" - the actual guts of the NT series is Cutler's broken NT
effort from 1991. It's an undocumented binary blob which breaks if anyone
tries to alter /anything/ - it wasn't built to be robust, but rather to "get
something working" to show at a conference. It was never meant to be for a
production OS!

> On the other hand, Microsoft did develop a whole new kernel in-house - or at
> least, for as far as I can tell - called Singularity.

It's like WinFS - it's vapourware.

> According to some rumors, it should have been the base for the new Windows
> version, but the problems with Vista and the fear of even more serious
> compatibility problems sped up the release of the next Windows version based
> on the current generation of NT technology and put Singularity on the
> backburner in terms of a public release.

Windows 7 /deliberately/ breaks compatibility with older software - partially
because they can no longer support NT (it was unsupportable in 1999) and
partially in an effort to generate revenue from new software.

> Of course, the latter is just one of the rumors. Another rumor is that it's
> supposed to be a Linux-killer character mode server operating system.
> Either way, they've been working on it for many years already, and as
> always, Microsoft's true intentions with this beast will only surface much,
> much later. ;-)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singula...erating_system)

It's just so much bluster. Don't believe the hype! ;-)

C.

Since rumors a being tossed about with abandon, I will
add the one that has come my way.

Windows 7 was originally intended to be a brand new
OS, but as usual Micro$loth has recently concluded
it cound not handle the task in anything close to
the amount of time Marketing would allow.

Hence, Windows 7 will be an "enhanced" version of
Vista, maybe. Since XP currently has a good reputation
(at least in comparison to Vista) Marketing might ask
for an enhanced version of XP. Even my feeble mind
thinks there would be serious problems with that
approach, though, so maybe M$ will spare us that
disaster.

Of course, M$ could wake up, smell the coffee, and
switch to UNIX or a derivative thereof, as should have
been done back in the 1980s. But that would require
allowing technical judgment to override marketing
judgment, and nobody wants to make a call that can
be proven right or wrong when one can opt for fantasy
and only be provably successful or unsuccessful in
the marketplace. Micro$loth's track record there
is quite good. Promises of pie-in-the-sky, FUD,
and detailed attention to making things attractive
to lusers have paid off.

No cheers.

jim b.

--
UNIX is not user unfriendly; it merely
expects users to be computer-friendly.

On Saturday 25 October 2008 10:18, someone identifying as *Christopher
Hunter* wrote in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

>>> There's nobody left at Redmond capable of writing another one
>>> (they're /buying/ /in/ a kernel for Windoze 7).
>
>> From what I've read about it so far - not that I actively look up on
>> anything Windows-related anymore, but I do keep Slashdot open in a
>> browser and one does tend to pick up some stuff from there every once in
>> a while - Windows 7 will actually be called Windows 7 but should more
>> appropriately be called Windows 6.1, since it'll have an only slightly
>> updated Vista kernel.
>
> Not at all - there was a specification issued and tenders were invited for
> the construction of a new kernel for Windows. There is actually no such
> thing at a "Vista kernel" - the actual guts of the NT series is Cutler's
> broken NT effort from 1991.

Well, of course, that was what I meant. I didn't mean to imply that there
was a "real Vista kernel", I simply meant to say "the kernel in Vista". Of
course it's still NT. :-)

> It's an undocumented binary blob which breaks if anyone tries to
> alter /anything/ - [...

Sounds like it's in perfect Microsoft tradition then...

> ...] it wasn't built to be robust, but rather to "get something working"
> to show at a conference. It was never meant to be for a production OS!

This I cannot corroborate, but I do remember that it took them an awful long
time to come up with NT as the OS/2 killer it was purported to be, while
OS/2 was already out in 32-bit version (by IBM) and running in only 1/3 of
the RAM required for NT.

It also took them an immensely long time to switch from NT 4.0 to NT 5.0,
which was then renamed into Windows 2000 at the release of the third beta.

>> On the other hand, Microsoft did develop a whole new kernel in-house - or
>> at least, for as far as I can tell - called Singularity.
>
> It's like WinFS - it's vapourware.

Microsoft's official statement about it was that it was only intended for
in-house research purposes and that it was not meant to be released to the
public. Later on, there were however rumors that Singularity would become
a successor to Vista one day, particularly aimed at servers.

These were of course rumors, and I must honestly say that I don't quite
follow what goes on at Microsoft anymore now that GNU/Linux is gaining more
momentum and support.

(Not that I was really interested in what Microsoft was doing as I had no
intention whatsoever to become a Windows user, but up until a few years
ago, Microsoft still posed a threat to GNU/Linux and FOSS in the market,
and so as an advocate of both GNU/Linux as an operating system and of Free
& Open Software, I kept an eye on "the enemy". ;-))

>> According to some rumors, it should have been the base for the new
>> Windows version, but the problems with Vista and the fear of even more
>> serious compatibility problems sped up the release of the next Windows
>> version based on the current generation of NT technology and put
>> Singularity on the backburner in terms of a public release.
>
> Windows 7 /deliberately/ breaks compatibility with older software -
> partially because they can no longer support NT (it was unsupportable in
> 1999) and partially in an effort to generate revenue from new software.

Vista already broke compatibility with a lot of stuff, including hardware,
and imposed very high hardware requirements, which - or so I've heard -
will be no different for the Windows 7. It's all part of the manipulation
strategy, driving the customer towards the purchase of faster hardware -
which can then be labeled "ready for Windows 7" again, and which might even
- with Intel's help - be constructed in such a way that you can't get
around DRM and/or a Microsoft OS.

Of course, if Intel were to really go that way, they'd be shooting
themselves in the foot with a grenade launcher, because AMD sure isn't
going to go there, and so that would mean that AMD would gain the monopoly
on processors that can run anything other than Windows. I don't think
Intel's that stupid.

>> Of course, the latter is just one of the rumors. Another rumor is that
>> it's supposed to be a Linux-killer character mode server operating
>> system. Either way, they've been working on it for many years already,
>> and as always, Microsoft's true intentions with this beast will only
>> surface much, much later. ;-)
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singula...erating_system)
>
> It's just so much bluster. Don't believe the hype! ;-)

Oh, I never believe in hypes, Chris, least of all those launched from
Redmond. ;-)

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)