On Wednesday 10 September 2008 16:30, someone identifying as *Alan Secker*
wrote in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> Nothing annoys me more than some national organisation paid by my taxes
> telling me that it will not accept something delivered other than from a
> Windows program.
>
> [...]
> So those of you whop complain when I say that I have to use Windows in my
> work may now understand how frustrating and time consuming, attempting to
> do without it can be.

And things won't change unless we as the GNU/Linux community make a stand.
This is what Free Software is all about: our right to use the software that
*we* want, and not what some company or organization dictates us to use.

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:56:25 +0200, Aragorn wrote:

> And things won't change unless we as the GNU/Linux community make a
> stand. This is what Free Software is all about: our right to use the
> software that *we* want, and not what some company or organization
> dictates us to use.

The organisation in question is the UK government, not known either for
its openness to suggestion or to supporting anything other than the
products of large companies with deep pockets :-(

On Wednesday 10 September 2008 19:31, someone identifying as *Mark Madsen*
wrote in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:56:25 +0200, Aragorn wrote:
>
>> And things won't change unless we as the GNU/Linux community make a
>> stand. This is what Free Software is all about: our right to use the
>> software that *we* want, and not what some company or organization
>> dictates us to use.
>
> The organisation in question is the UK government, not known either for
> its openness to suggestion or to supporting anything other than the
> products of large companies with deep pockets :-(

Well, if protest won't get them to listen, then maybe a boycot will...?
Anyone who is adamant with me about their support for Microsoft only will
get an equally adamant reaction from me that they are not compliant with
internationally agreed-upon standards, and if necessary I threaten them to
take my business elsewhere.

Yet I am but one person, but if more people were to unite and do this sort
of thing, they'd soon have no choice but to comply if they want to keep
their customers.

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:24:34 +1000, Doug Laidlaw wrote:

> On the more general point, if you want the organization to write a
> package you can use, why should they have to write two, one for you and
> one for the majority? Linux may be free for you to use, but I can
> guarantee that even if they write their tax software in Linux, they
> won't be releasing the code under the GPL.

A datapoint: I live in the Canton and Republic of Geneva. Geneva
supplies all its taxpayers with a program called GeTax for doing their
tax return. It is available in versions for Windows, MacOS, and Linux.

Geneva has 250,000 residents. The UK has about 60 million. Clearly it
is not about levels of resources, but about political wiillingness.

Your remark about the GPL I have to confess don't quite understand.

Doug Laidlaw wrote:
> Aragorn wrote:
>
> our right to use the
>>>> software that *we* want:
>
> What right? What is its source? Is it granted by the U.N. Charter of Human
> Rights? "Our claimed right" would be more accurate. The organization is
> more aware of your "right" to keep costs down, so that you pay less.
> Writing two of everything doesn't advance that right.

Not to belabor the point beyond recognition, but many of the problems
are issues of adherence to industry or international standards,
rather than provision of multiple versions of the software itself.

In this, apart from failure to adhere to standards, Microsoft refusal
to openly release critical elements of OS code are a major problem
for those who would create alternative but interoperable software for
a variety of purposes. Were Micro$loth pure as the driven snow, this
issue might well be ignored, but M$ is a convicted monopolist both in
the United States and Europe. That stigma, in both areas, means
there is much that Microsoft is forbidden to do, and much that it
must do, and M$ appears to be interpreting the court-ordered remedies
as narrowly as possible, to phrase it gently.

The conviction in Europe was much more onerous than the U.S.
judgment, but in either area it is not unreasonable to demand that M$
abide by the terms of law and court-order applicable. Of course,
those who are programming for free often do not have big bucks in the
bank to hire lawyers to joust with M$ lawyers in attempts to get the
law and court orders enforced. Hence, there is reasonable grounds
for appeal to alternative (in military parlance, asymmetric) means to
deal with an opponent when one cannot succeed in head-on mirror-image
confrontation.

Cheers!

jim b.

--
UNIX is not user unfriendly; it merely
expects users to be computer-friendly.

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:41:40 +0200, Aragorn
wrote:

>As I get older, I find that I'm becoming more and more agitated by people
>not being able or willing to think for themselves and allowing themselves
>to be mislead by such obvious and superficial things as propaganda and
>expensively sounding titles or concepts, without understanding what's
>underneath the name. :-/

Thank goodness it's not just me then !
--

Cheers,

DrT

** Stress - the condition brought about by having to
** resist the temptation to beat the living daylights
** out of someone who richly deserves it.

On Wednesday 17 September 2008 17:17, someone identifying as *DrTeeth* wrote
in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:41:40 +0200, Aragorn
> wrote:
>
>> As I get older, I find that I'm becoming more and more agitated by people
>> not being able or willing to think for themselves and allowing themselves
>> to be mislead by such obvious and superficial things as propaganda and
>> expensively sounding titles or concepts, without understanding what's
>> underneath the name. :-/
>
> Thank goodness it's not just me then !

Well, compared to some of the people I get to encounter in this day and age,
the AOL customers hitting Usenet in September of 1993 were sheer geniuses,
and I'm not just talking of computers and operating systems but of lots of
things in which the obvious and superficial does not quite cover the deeper
story.

I've just had a days-long debate about GNU/Linux versus Windows in a totally
unrelated newsgroup - /be.politics,/ not really a group with a high degree
of intellect, and severely polluted by crossposting trolls, neo-nazis and a
few nymshifting (ultra)rightwing zealots en psychotics - and for the
record, I was not the one who initiated that debate.

I didn't win the debate either, because that guy is hopeless. At least, if
you're dealing with a Microsoft shill, then you know that *he* knows he's
lying through his teeth, and if you're technically a bit savvy, you can put
him in his place right away, but this guy... He's absolutely fanatic and
religious about Windows and about Internet Explorer.

For everything I tell him about Windows, he wants to see links as proof,
because he refuses to accept anything I tell him of the Windows security
model and how it is bypassable. He even threw things like /umsdos/ at me,
but of course I know how that works better than he does, and I could refute
it, but still he claims victory and won't let go of the debate.

He's like the /matt_left_coast/ of /be.politics/ - for those here
in /alt.os.linux.mandriva/ who still remember that one - and so I wisely
backed out of the debate when he told me I should take a look at the new
Internet Explorer. He can have his Windows and his Internet Explorer.
As long as it's not on my computer, I don't give a damn anymore. ;-)

I figure we're not going to hit October 1st 1993[1] any time soon. Too bad
they're not paying us by the hour.

*[1]* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

Aragorn wrote:

> He can have his Windows and his Internet Explorer.

You'll /never/ learn! 8-) You really shouldn't feed the trolls!

C.

On Wednesday 17 September 2008 21:37, someone identifying as *Christopher
Hunter* wrote in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> Aragorn wrote:
>
>> He can have his Windows and his Internet Explorer.
>
> You'll /never/ learn! 8-) You really shouldn't feed the trolls!

Well, it's not a newsgroup regarding information technology. It's a
newsgroup regarding Belgian politics. I've forgotten what exactly it was
that I had written to trigger the debate, but I got suckered into it.

In fact, I *have* learned my lesson... One /left_coast/ was enough for me,
so I simply barged out of the debate. ;-)

P.S.: Your newsreader is set up to request a reply via e-mail as well, but
given that the e-mail address set there is invalid, that would of course
never work. ;-)

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:07:23 +0200, Aragorn
wrote:

>For everything I tell him about Windows, he wants to see links as proof,

That's a favourite trick of lefties/commies when they are losing the
argument.
--

Cheers,

DrT

** Stress - the condition brought about by having to
** resist the temptation to beat the living daylights
** out of someone who richly deserves it.

On Wednesday 17 September 2008 23:03, someone identifying as *DrTeeth* wrote
in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:07:23 +0200, Aragorn
> wrote:
>
>> For everything I tell him about Windows, he wants to see links as proof,
>
> That's a favourite trick of lefties/commies when they are losing the
> argument.

Ehm... Well, I'm not a communist, but I *am* a /leftie,/ as you call it. I
have a leftwing liberal and a nuanced progressive political orientation. I
believe in a strong but lean and efficient government which exerts enough
control over the economy to ensure fair trade principles, but I do not
oppose to private enterprises, as long as they play by the rules.

I'm not a socialist, for what it's worth, but here in Europe we have many
more types of political orientation than the USA has, and therefore you
guys typically see things in a more polarized way.

But then again on the other hand, economic pressure is far greater here in
Europe, and especially in Belgium, to such an extent that there is too much
industry and too many people packed in too small a country, and we have a
nanny government constantly telling us what to do and what not to do. This
is something I don't like. The US is far more relaxed in that perspective.
Employees in the US at least still have room to breathe. ;-)

Also, on account of the GNU/Linux versus Windows thing, I used to spend some
time - about a year and a half, I think - in /comp.os.linux.advocacy,/ and
from my experience there, those fanatically in favor of Windows were all of
the rightwing, and even the extreme right - think KKK and stuff like that.
And incidentally, the person I was having that debate with just now also
leans towards rightwing extremism. He's an adept of the political party
here in the Flanders - the Dutch-speaking region of Belgium - who wants to
split off the Flanders from the rest of the country, and who strongly
oppose to anything from another culture.

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:11:43 +0200, Aragorn wrote:

>
> In fact, I *have* learned my lesson... One /left_coast/ was enough for
> me, so I simply barged out of the debate. ;-)


Now that is a name from the past. He is still in my killfile.
--
Neil
reverse ra and delete l
Linux user 335851

On Thursday 18 September 2008 11:41, someone identifying as *Neil Ellwood*
wrote in /alt.os.linux.mandriva:/

> On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:11:43 +0200, Aragorn wrote:
>
>>
>> In fact, I *have* learned my lesson... One /left_coast/ was enough for
>> me, so I simply barged out of the debate. ;-)
>
> Now that is a name from the past. He is still in my killfile.

Not here - this is another machine than the one I was using back at the time
- but from what I can tell he's no longer monitoring this newsgroup, or at
the very least, he's not posting here anymore, and I don't see him posting
in /comp.os.linux.hardware/ either.

I've quit /comp.os.linux.advocacy/ and /comp.os.linux.misc/ quite a while
ago, and those were two groups I know he was monitoring back then - if only
so as to stalk others.

I don't know what's become of him, and frankly I don't give a damn,
either. ;-) It's nice and quiet without him around. :-)

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:36:38 +0200, just as I was about to take a
herb,Aragorn disturbed my reverie and
wrote:

>and too many people packed in too small a country, and we have a
>nanny government constantly telling us what to do and what not to do.

Snap here in the UK

>This is something I don't like.

Don't get me started .

As we are getting more than a tad OT, best to stop here. CU around.
--

Cheers,

DrT

** Stress - the condition brought about by having to
** resist the temptation to beat the living daylights
** out of someone who richly deserves it.