Hans leads police to Nina's body - Mandriva

This is a discussion on Hans leads police to Nina's body - Mandriva ; On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article , Adam wrote: > If my incandescent lamp says, for example, "60W bulb max", is it >safe to use a "more powerful" fluorescent, like one labelled "20W >[fluorescent] ...

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Thread: Hans leads police to Nina's body

  1. Re: [O/T] Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    , Adam wrote:

    > If my incandescent lamp says, for example, "60W bulb max", is it
    >safe to use a "more powerful" fluorescent, like one labelled "20W
    >[fluorescent] replacement for 75W [incandescent] bulb"?


    Usually - but two things to look at - most compact fluorescent lamps
    do not tolerate being operated by a dimmer control. Second, look at
    the (usually) ceramic base of the lamp, and you will probably find a
    VoltAmp rating - I'm looking at one that says 120 V60Hz, 23 W, .330A
    and do you do the numbers, that ain't 23 Watts.

    >(And why do the dollar-store fluorescents emit such visibly blue
    >light? Is that why they're sold for $1?)


    Dunno - Cool White as opposed to Warm White?

    Old guy

  2. Re: [O/T] Hans leads police to Nina's body

    On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    , David Powell wrote:

    >ibuprofin@painkiller.example.tld (Moe Trin) wrote:


    >>I'm not a telephone expert, but my understanding is that the lines are
    >>not hard grounded. Certainly, tests on my home phones show the lines
    >>are not well grounded.


    >How can you tell? You can measure the earth impedance from your local
    >earth to the phone line, but you cannot measure the impedance between
    >phone lines and earth at the exchange, and, as you write later,
    >there's the resistance of the lines to consider.


    AC (60 Hz) and DC resistance measurements at the demarc. Both showed
    in excess of 1000 Ohms to ground using shunt resistances and an
    oscilloscope.

    >Probably not that much difference between earths in areas with wet
    >alluvial stuff under the top soil, quite different if it's granite
    >underneath.


    I've had 6.83 inches so far this year, 2 of those in the last 60 days,
    which is our rainy season. I've got three "grounds" on the property
    that I can measure to (utilities ground, water pipe, and a safety
    ground for the wrought iron fence), and there is 15-20 Ohms between
    each (it rained two days ago).

    >The point is that neither of us has a single, nationwide, connected LV
    >distribution system, it comes in finite chunks, and over the area
    >served by telephone exchange copper there will be many such chunks,
    >all with their own idea of what ground potential is.


    Except that there isn't supposed to be "normal" currents flowing in the
    ground lead. The neutral will carry the current in copper. The fact
    that five or six residences all attach the neutral to an earth ground
    isn't going to mean much for currents when the copper resistance is 0.08
    Ohms/1000 feet verses 10-20ish Ohms earth to earth point.

    >The problem is that if you break the rules and connect the neutrals
    >from two different transformers a current will flow in that connexion
    >and there's no fuse in those circuits.


    If you connect the neutrals - true, but why would you be doing that?
    Is your equipment designer assuming that ground and neutral are
    functionally the same? It sound as if this were the case. That's been
    bad engineering practice for over eighty years here.

    >Just illustrating the problem. wherever you wanted to locate a tty on
    >that plot then over 90% of such locations will be on different
    >transformers.


    If the TTY (or what-ever device) assumes that the neutral wire is an
    adequate ground reference, I can see the problem, The requirements here
    are a separate (from the neutral) ground reference, or double insulation
    to prevent contact to _either_ side of the power line.

    >Simply not possible. If your residential transformer has a service
    >radius of 200 feet, and your telephone exchange 10000ft, there will be
    >many transformers, each with its own local earth, for each exchange.


    And don't forget the required ground at each and every demarc.

    >It doesn't matter if the telephone lines are displaced from power
    >ground, so long as there's no low Z connexion between.


    and as along as the displacement or difference is less than the allowed
    common mode limits of everything that sees that difference. But please
    re-read what I wrote - I am not advocating, recommending or suggesting
    that one or more wires of the telephone, cable TV or similar service
    be connected permanently to ground. Did you understand that? If you
    bought a surge protective device and it makes a low impedance connection
    between the wire it's protecting and a "ground" under normal
    circumstances, take it back to where you bought it - it's faulty.

    >However, as I can see that you understand that the grounds can be at
    >different potentials, it's difficult for me to see why you cannot accept
    >that a destructive current can flow in a connexion between the two.


    Under non-fault, and non-lightning conditions, the differential will be
    comparatively low - a few volts maximum. In fault or lightning
    conditions this assumption may not be correct - in fact it may be very
    wrong indeed - as I mentioned up-thread.

    >> This can be done by having all lightning protective devices grounded
    >> at the same ground, or by using a "whole house" surge protector, or
    >> merely the "whole computer" equivalent.

    >
    >Not sure about that, usually best to take the lightning conductors to
    >ground by the most direct route. Lightning doesn't go round corners
    >very well.


    And as mentioned up-thread, in the event of a near miss lightning strike,
    those grounds may well be at different (destructive) levels from each
    other. If you are worrying about lightning going around corners to
    reach a ground rod, you had better worry about how it got inside in
    the first place. The idea of a _local_ common ground (really, a common
    point that all surge protection is referencing itself to) is that the
    whole freakin' world may momentarily be at eleventy-zillion volts above
    the level of an unaffected ground reference, and that's fine because
    _EVERYTHING_ is at that voltage and the magic smoke containers are not
    stressed by this non-differential condition. When your telephone line
    shows one or two hundred volts different from the "ground plane" in the
    modem OR SIMILAR, then you are going to have problems. That is what the
    common ground reference in a surge suppression scheme is supposed to
    prevent.

    >You gave a description of your residential domestic supplies,


    Actually, it's also the same concept of our three phase distribution
    in this building.

    >I'm guessing the transformer is pole mounted. Much the same as our
    >rural stuff, but ours is 3ph&n.


    At my house, it's an underground distribution (13.2 KV 3ph, and the
    120-0-120 single phase), but that's because I'm in a built up area. The
    single phase transformer is connected to phase A or B or C (and N) in
    such a manner as to produce something like a balanced load over-all.
    About a half mile away, there is what is laughingly called agricultural
    land (I live in the Sonoran desert), and that gets a single phase of
    13.2KV and a return lead overhead that is grounded at every pole.

    >We too have two earth systems. The earth at the pole is there to earth
    >the transformer tank, which may take fault current and voltage at HV
    >from a short inside the tank.


    Agree - it also takes any actual lightning strikes.

    >The one at the consumer's terminals is the neutral to earth bond on
    >the LV circuit. We need separate earths, the one by the pole may
    >transiently rise to a voltage much higher than you would want in the
    >house.


    That depends where the fault or lightning strike may occur, and what
    you have to measure against. If the whole house is momentarily at a
    zillion volts, things are fine as long as there isn't something that
    is actually a "true ground" voltage.

    Old guy

  3. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    Moe Trin wrote:

    > On Sun, 17 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva,
    > in article , Adam wrote:
    >
    > Moe Trin wrote:


    That's odd. A set of quote markers has gone missing.

    [snip]
    >>I know voltage also affects the color of the light from an
    >>incandescent
    >>bulb. Does anyone know whether the light output and color of
    >>fluorescent bulbs changes much when voltage varies within the range
    >>of 110-125V?

    >
    > The color of a fluorescent lamp is a function of the phosphor, or
    > the gas _if_ it's a discharge type of device.


    There is a price / efficiency / color quality trade off. Medical
    and photographic people are very fussy, most others don't
    notice the difference.

    >>> Long ago in another universe, we used to buy 130 Volt lamps
    >>> because of the significantly increased life at 120 Volts.

    >>
    >>They used to make 130V lamps???

    >
    > GE and Sylvania as I recall.
    >
    >>I know; it makes comparisons almost impossible, especially on towers
    >>and laptops. And it's not just electronics. For a while I drove a
    >>Ford Taurus, and still don't know how it differed from a Mercury
    >>Sable except in prestige and sticker price.

    >
    > Jim Beard has answered that one - GM was notorious for this, but
    > we're also ignoring cars made in other countries that have domestic
    > labels. Izuzu, Suburu, Mitsubishi, and Mazda in Japan, Opel in
    > Germany and others were sold as US labeled vehicles (for example,
    > the Dodge Colt and Ram D50 were a Mitsubishi vehicle, as was the
    > Plymouth Arrow).


    There are other reasons. In Australia Mitsubishi sells a Pajero.
    Apparently they decided that they could not sell a car with that
    name into the Mexican market, so they used another name. I think
    that it is an excellent name for an off road four wheel drive that
    city dwellers buy.


    --
    Peter D.
    Sig goes here...

  4. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    Peter D. wrote:
    > There are other reasons. In Australia Mitsubishi sells a Pajero.
    > Apparently they decided that they could not sell a car with that
    > name into the Mexican market, so they used another name. I think
    > that it is an excellent name for an off road four wheel drive that
    > city dwellers buy.


    Was the Nova a GM or Chrysler product? Whatever, they marketed it
    in Mexico under original name for a time. In Spanish, "no va" means
    "no go." There weren't a lot of sales.

    Cheers!

    jim b.

    --
    UNIX is not user unfriendly; it merely
    expects users to be computer-friendly.

  5. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    On 2008-08-19, Jim Beard wrote:
    > Peter D. wrote:
    >> There are other reasons. In Australia Mitsubishi sells a Pajero.
    >> Apparently they decided that they could not sell a car with that
    >> name into the Mexican market, so they used another name. I think
    >> that it is an excellent name for an off road four wheel drive that
    >> city dwellers buy.

    >
    > Was the Nova a GM or Chrysler product? Whatever, they marketed it
    > in Mexico under original name for a time. In Spanish, "no va" means
    > "no go." There weren't a lot of sales.


    I thought that myth had been put to rest long ago:



    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, author |
    Shell Scripting Recipes: | My code in this post, if any,
    A Problem-Solution Approach | is released under the
    2005, Apress | GNU General Public Licence

  6. Re: [O/T] Wiring safety [was: Hans leads police to Nina's body]

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    > , David Powell wrote:

    ....
    >>The point is that neither of us has a single, nationwide, connected LV
    >>distribution system, it comes in finite chunks, and over the area
    >>served by telephone exchange copper there will be many such chunks,
    >>all with their own idea of what ground potential is.

    >
    >
    > Except that there isn't supposed to be "normal" currents flowing in the
    > ground lead. The neutral will carry the current in copper. The fact
    > that five or six residences all attach the neutral to an earth ground
    > isn't going to mean much for currents when the copper resistance is 0.08
    > Ohms/1000 feet verses 10-20ish Ohms earth to earth point.

    ....
    > Is your equipment designer assuming that ground and neutral are
    > functionally the same? It sound as if this were the case. That's been
    > bad engineering practice for over eighty years here.


    It's not done here either.

    At this point, I'm really wishing you guys had the back of an envelope
    that you could draw on. Since you both know what you're talking about,
    and the laws of physics are the same on both sides of the pond, I'm
    guessing you'd have immediate agreement if we weren't stuck with a text
    medium.

    Almost makes me wish for HTML.

    Also for a new thread name. Thanks for an interesting and educational
    thread. I'm enjoying it; but there seems now to be three such, all
    masquerading as a discussion on the future of ReiserFS.

    Frank

  7. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    > On 2008-08-19, Jim Beard wrote:
    >
    >>Peter D. wrote:
    >>
    >>>There are other reasons. In Australia Mitsubishi sells a Pajero.
    >>>Apparently they decided that they could not sell a car with that
    >>>name into the Mexican market, so they used another name. I think
    >>>that it is an excellent name for an off road four wheel drive that
    >>>city dwellers buy.

    >>
    >>Was the Nova a GM or Chrysler product? Whatever, they marketed it
    >>in Mexico under original name for a time. In Spanish, "no va" means
    >>"no go." There weren't a lot of sales.

    >
    >
    > I thought that myth had been put to rest long ago:
    >
    >
    >


    And Irish Mist is still sold in Germany.

  8. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    , Peter D. wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> The color of a fluorescent lamp is a function of the phosphor, or
    >> the gas _if_ it's a discharge type of device.

    >
    >There is a price / efficiency / color quality trade off. Medical
    >and photographic people are very fussy, most others don't
    >notice the difference.


    Not married? My wife has a make-up mirror about 8 x 11 inches with
    tubular lamps (fluorescent of incandescent - I don't pay attention)
    hidden on both sides, and mechanically selectable tinted filters that
    alters the color temperature of the "white" light - something like
    day/night/indoor or what-ever.

    Go look for the advertising copy from General Electric about their
    "Reveal" incandescent lamps. I think Phillips has a similar product
    under a different trade name.

    >There are other reasons. In Australia Mitsubishi sells a Pajero.
    >Apparently they decided that they could not sell a car with that
    >name into the Mexican market, so they used another name.


    Ah, queue the funny car names thread. Plug 'Pajero mean' into
    your favorite search engine, and see all kinds of "interesting"
    statements.

    >I think that it is an excellent name for an off road four wheel drive
    >that city dwellers buy.


    It's called a Mitsubishi Montero here, and supposedly a "Shogun" in the
    U.K. Advertising departments - what would we do without them?

    Old guy

  9. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    > On 2008-08-19, Jim Beard wrote:
    >> Peter D. wrote:
    >>> There are other reasons. In Australia Mitsubishi sells a Pajero.
    >>> Apparently they decided that they could not sell a car with that
    >>> name into the Mexican market, so they used another name. I think
    >>> that it is an excellent name for an off road four wheel drive that
    >>> city dwellers buy.

    >> Was the Nova a GM or Chrysler product? Whatever, they marketed it
    >> in Mexico under original name for a time. In Spanish, "no va" means
    >> "no go." There weren't a lot of sales.

    >
    > I thought that myth had been put to rest long ago:
    >
    >
    >


    Read the article you cited, in full.

    Your citation says GM sales of the Nova in Mexico exceeded
    expectations. Maybe. But I vaguely remember that the numbers
    were not impressive. Maybe I just expected more sale in that
    market than one could reasonably expect.

    And I do not know if or when the name of the Nova sold in Mexico
    was changed to something else. On that count, I cannot disagree
    with the cited article, as I simply do not know and don't think
    it is worth my time to track it out.

    But I repeat, the car was marketed in Mexico as the Nova, that
    no va in Spanish means "no go" (as the article cited also states)
    and my memory says sales were meager.

    No cheers I need to quibble on this one.

    jim b.

    --
    UNIX is not user unfriendly; it merely
    expects users to be computer-friendly.

  10. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    Moe Trin wrote:

    > On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva,
    > in article , Peter D. wrote:
    >
    >>Moe Trin wrote:

    >
    >>> The color of a fluorescent lamp is a function of the phosphor, or
    >>> the gas _if_ it's a discharge type of device.

    >>
    >>There is a price / efficiency / color quality trade off. Medical
    >>and photographic people are very fussy, most others don't
    >>notice the difference.

    >
    > Not married? My wife has a make-up mirror about 8 x 11 inches with
    > tubular lamps (fluorescent of incandescent - I don't pay attention)
    > hidden on both sides, and mechanically selectable tinted filters
    > that alters the color temperature of the "white" light - something
    > like day/night/indoor or what-ever.


    At first glance I thought that you were on about the price of
    domestic tranquility, but it is more along the lines of
    "some people treat applying make up as an essential medical
    procedure".

    > Go look for the advertising copy from General Electric about their
    > "Reveal" incandescent lamps. I think Phillips has a similar product
    > under a different trade name.
    >
    >>There are other reasons. In Australia Mitsubishi sells a Pajero.
    >>Apparently they decided that they could not sell a car with that
    >>name into the Mexican market, so they used another name.

    >
    > Ah, queue the funny car names thread. Plug 'Pajero mean' into
    > your favorite search engine, and see all kinds of "interesting"
    > statements.


    Google searches seem to be localized. Searching from Australia
    most of the links are about 4 wheel drives.

    >>I think that it is an excellent name for an off road four wheel
    >>drive that city dwellers buy.

    >
    > It's called a Mitsubishi Montero here, and supposedly a "Shogun" in
    > the
    > U.K. Advertising departments - what would we do without them?
    >
    > Old guy



    --
    Peter D.
    Sig goes here...

  11. Re: [O/T] Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    On 2008-08-18, Moe Trin wrote:
    > On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    >, Adam wrote:
    >
    >> If my incandescent lamp says, for example, "60W bulb max", is it
    >>safe to use a "more powerful" fluorescent, like one labelled "20W
    >>[fluorescent] replacement for 75W [incandescent] bulb"?

    >
    > Usually - but two things to look at - most compact fluorescent lamps
    > do not tolerate being operated by a dimmer control. Second, look at
    > the (usually) ceramic base of the lamp, and you will probably find a
    > VoltAmp rating - I'm looking at one that says 120 V60Hz, 23 W, .330A
    > and do you do the numbers, that ain't 23 Watts.


    It depends on the power factor--you know, the cosine of the
    angle between voltage and current waveforms (assuming they
    are both sine waves). 120V, 0.330A, and 23W would be a
    power factor of 0.58, which is pretty reactive.

    Hey, I remembered something from my (1983 graduation) BSEE
    coursework. :-)

    --
    Robert Riches
    spamtrap42@verizon.net
    (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

  12. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    Moe Trin wrote:
    >> PARSECMDLINEFLAG=0
    >> while [ $PARSECMDLINEFLAG -eq 0 ] ; do
    >> case "$1" in

    >
    >> *)
    >> FINDDIRS=$*
    >> PARSECMDLINEFLAG=1
    >> ;;

    >
    > OK, so the directory list is mandatory, and is the last item[s].

    [snip]
    > OK - this _could_ get you in trouble, if you fumble-finger an option
    > other than "-[cdpu]" - that would be taken as the directories to parse
    > and bails from the case statement. Off the top of the head, I'd
    > rework the wild-card as a sanity check, and do the last bit outside of
    > the case statement, but before the shift - perhaps
    >
    > -*)
    > echo "Unrecognized option $1"
    > exit 2
    > ;;
    > esac


    I didn't know you could use '-*' as a match in a 'case' statement. Yes,
    that sounds much better.

    > That's untested, but I suspect you see the idea. Note that I'm testing
    > for an absolute _and_ relative path to the directory, and assuming that
    > the user did make the last argument[s] to be the directory[s], though
    > the two sanity checks mitigate that.


    Yep, I see. What I might do, though, is something after the 'case' loop
    like:

    BADDIR=
    for DIR in $FINDDIRS ; do
    if [ ! -d $DIR ] ; then
    BADDIR=$DIR
    fi
    done

    if [ -n $BADDIR ] ; then
    echo "$BADDIR is not a directory"
    exit 17
    fi

    I realize if there's more than one nonexistent directory it will only
    catch the last one, but it'll do for now.

    >> I'd like to do whatever's considered common practice, so (a) I don't
    >> look like an idiot, and (b) it will be easier for others to understand,
    >> and therefore more likely they'll want to improve on it.

    >
    > This is fine, and you're not even eligible for the UUOC award ;-)


    Ah, good. I'd hate to get that.

    I found one odd use of 'cat'. In a terminal window, the output of 'ps
    7339' (assuming that process exists) gets truncated at the right edge of
    the window, but 'ps 7339 | cat' displays the entire line.

    >>

    >
    >


    I know it's a groaner, but at least it's not a pun.

    >> I see that if a bulb is meant to be 60W @ 125V, then it would be about
    >> 260 ohms, and at my 121.6V would be 56.8W (95% of spec). My parents'
    >> house is about 116V, so the same bulb there would be about 51.6W and
    >> not as bright, but would (on average) last longer.

    >
    > That would be the "hot" resistance (which you have to determine by
    > math, as an Ohmmeter won't provide the energy to warm up the filament),
    > but this isn't unreasonable.


    I'm going by the readings on my "Kill-A-Watt" which measures while the
    lamp, or whatever, is running. Apparently specs on it are typical
    accuracy 0.2%, maximum 2%. Good enough for my purposes.

    Adam

  13. Re: [O/T] Fluorescent Lamps (was: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.)

    I'm replying to several posts here, to cut down on the number of very
    similar O/T threads. If that's a no-no, just let me know-know.

    Adam wrote:
    >> If my incandescent lamp says, for example, "60W bulb max", is it
    >> safe to use a "more powerful" fluorescent, like one labelled "20W
    >> [fluorescent] replacement for 75W [incandescent] bulb"?


    Bit Twister wrote:
    > Your electrical ratings are what you pay attention to.
    >
    > You are not supposed to put/plug a device in, which draws more
    > that what is specified.
    >
    > What they are telling you is, the 20W puts out as much light as a 75W bulb
    > but only draws 20W of power. Whatever you put in the 60W fixture
    > needs to draw less than 60W.


    Thanks! Maybe I just found a way to simultaneously increase
    illumination and decrease my electric bill.


    Moe Trin wrote:
    > Usually - but two things to look at - most compact fluorescent lamps
    > do not tolerate being operated by a dimmer control. Second, look at
    > the (usually) ceramic base of the lamp, and you will probably find a
    > VoltAmp rating - I'm looking at one that says 120 V60Hz, 23 W, .330A
    > and do you do the numbers, that ain't 23 Watts.


    I never noticed that. The lamp (clamp on, swing arm) on my computer
    desk has 660W, 250V on its ceramic base, so I should safely be able to
    use a fluorescent of 20W or even 30W, as long as it doesn't stick out
    beyond the shade.

    I know about dimmers, and that includes "touch on" lamps with several
    brightness levels. I like those little gadgets that convert any
    incandescent lamp to a variable-brightness touch-on lamp.

    >> (And why do the dollar-store fluorescents emit such visibly blue
    >> light? Is that why they're sold for $1?)

    >
    > Dunno - Cool White as opposed to Warm White?


    Generally things sold at dollar stores have a reason for being $1...
    maybe these were out of spec? The white light is noticeably blue even
    without anything to compare it to.


    Peter D. wrote:
    >>> Does anyone know whether the light output and color of
    >>> fluorescent bulbs changes much when voltage varies within the range
    >>> of 110-125V?

    >> The color of a fluorescent lamp is a function of the phosphor, or
    >> the gas _if_ it's a discharge type of device.

    >
    > There is a price / efficiency / color quality trade off. Medical
    > and photographic people are very fussy, most others don't
    > notice the difference.


    The screw-in fluorescents that I got for $1 are visibly on the blue
    side, even without a reference. There must have been a compromise
    somewhere.

    I know what you mean about photographers and light color. I once made
    the mistake of mixing overhead fluorescents and "daylight balanced"
    electronic flash with color negatives, but only once.

    Adam

  14. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    <4vasn5-8rn.ln1@psd.motzarella.org>, Peter D. wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> Not married? My wife has a make-up mirror about 8 x 11 inches with
    >> tubular lamps (fluorescent of incandescent - I don't pay attention)
    >> hidden on both sides, and mechanically selectable tinted filters
    >> that alters the color temperature of the "white" light - something
    >> like day/night/indoor or what-ever.


    I took a closer look - it's fluorescent, and the selections are "Day",
    "Office", "Evening" and "Home", corresponding to a clear, slightly
    yellow, faint red, and faintly blue tinge.

    >At first glance I thought that you were on about the price of
    >domestic tranquility, but it is more along the lines of
    >"some people treat applying make up as an essential medical
    >procedure".


    Yeah - that sounds about right. ;-)

    >> Ah, queue the funny car names thread. Plug 'Pajero mean' into
    >> your favorite search engine, and see all kinds of "interesting"
    >> statements.

    >
    >Google searches seem to be localized. Searching from Australia
    >most of the links are about 4 wheel drives.


    http://chameleon-translations.com/In...s-pajero.shtml
    http://hem.com.np/2008/05/04/badly-chosen-car-names/

    If you follow the 'Click here for further information ->' at the
    bottom of the first page, you get more, including the de-bunking
    about the Spanish interpretation of 'NoVa' (my Spanish speaking
    co-workers agree - emphasis on wrong syl-LA-ble). The second
    site isn't very authoritative, but mentions other names. Hmmm,
    what ever happened to the "good" names, like Patrician (Packard),
    Commander (Studebaker), DeLuxe (several - I remember it from a
    pre-WW2 Chevrolet), Custom (also several - I remember it from a 1950s
    Ford), Special... Charger... Cobra... GTO... ah, yes -
    speeding ticket magnets.

    Old guy

  15. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    , Adam wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> -*)
    >> echo "Unrecognized option $1"
    >> exit 2
    >> ;;
    >> esac

    >
    >I didn't know you could use '-*' as a match in a 'case' statement. Yes,
    >that sounds much better.


    [compton ~]$ help case
    case: case WORD in [PATTERN [| PATTERN]...) COMMANDS ;;]... esac
    Selectively execute COMMANDS based upon WORD matching PATTERN. The
    `|' is used to separate multiple patterns.
    [compton ~]$

    You can actually get pretty exotic, as the 'PATTERN' can include regex.
    Here, $char is a single character:

    case "$char"
    in
    [0-9] ) echo digit ;;
    [a-z] ) echo "lowercase letter" ;;
    [A-Z] ) echo "uppercase letter" ;;
    * ) echo "special character" ;;
    esac

    or

    case "$char"
    in
    [0-9] ) echo digit ;;
    [a-z] | [A-Z] ) echo letter ;;
    * ) echo "special character" ;;
    esac

    >Yep, I see. What I might do, though, is something after the 'case' loop
    >like:
    >
    >BADDIR=
    >for DIR in $FINDDIRS ; do
    > if [ ! -d $DIR ] ; then
    > BADDIR=$DIR
    > fi
    >done
    >
    >if [ -n $BADDIR ] ; then
    > echo "$BADDIR is not a directory"
    > exit 17
    >fi


    If you are just trying to bail on bad directories, you don't need to
    set an extra variable - you could just go

    for DIR in $FINDDIRS ; do
    if [ ! -d $DIR ] ; then
    echo "$DIR is not a directory"
    exit 17
    fi

    >I realize if there's more than one nonexistent directory it will only
    >catch the last one, but it'll do for now.


    s/last/first/

    You could report all by appending rather than setting - perhaps

    BADDIR=""
    for DIR in $FINDDIRS ; do
    if [ ! -d $DIR ] ; then
    BADDIR="$BADDIR ; $DIR"
    fi

    Again - untested. This is the same trick used to append/prepend search
    directories in your $PATH in your shell startup scripts.

    >> This is fine, and you're not even eligible for the UUOC award ;-)

    >
    >Ah, good. I'd hate to get that.


    It's given out pretty often.

    >I found one odd use of 'cat'. In a terminal window, the output of 'ps
    >7339' (assuming that process exists) gets truncated at the right edge
    >of the window, but 'ps 7339 | cat' displays the entire line.


    Actually, it doesn't, at least on the systems I'm trying it. It gives
    80 characters worth of display, and I have some lines that are longer
    than that. Compare 'ps 7339 | cat' with the output of 'ps -w 7339'.

    >I'm going by the readings on my "Kill-A-Watt" which measures while the
    >lamp, or whatever, is running. Apparently specs on it are typical
    >accuracy 0.2%, maximum 2%. Good enough for my purposes.


    Agreed - most people really don't need more accuracy. Heck, the circuit
    breaker will _USUALLY_ hold 110 to 120 percent of the "rated" current,
    though they may eventually trip at that load (tens to hundreds of
    seconds).

    Old guy

  16. Re: [O/T] Fluorescent Lamps (was: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.)

    On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    , Adam wrote:

    >I'm replying to several posts here, to cut down on the number of very
    >similar O/T threads. If that's a no-no, just let me know-know.


    As long as stuff is attributed adequately ;-)

    >>Adam wrote:


    >>> If my incandescent lamp says, for example, "60W bulb max", is it
    >>> safe to use a "more powerful" fluorescent, like one labelled "20W
    >>> [fluorescent] replacement for 75W [incandescent] bulb"?


    >Bit Twister wrote:


    >> Your electrical ratings are what you pay attention to.
    >>
    >> You are not supposed to put/plug a device in, which draws more
    >> that what is specified.
    >>
    >> What they are telling you is, the 20W puts out as much light as a
    >> 75W bulb but only draws 20W of power. Whatever you put in the 60W
    >> fixture needs to draw less than 60W.

    >
    >Thanks! Maybe I just found a way to simultaneously increase
    >illumination and decrease my electric bill.


    The "60W bulb max" limitation in the light is a heat limitation. You
    can run a higher wattage lamp, but you run the risk of overheating
    things, such as the wiring in the light, and causing a fire.

    OTHER THAN THAT, more light for the bux - less load on the generators,
    that's the reason you used to find coupons for a significant;y reduced
    price (or free) CFL in the electric bill.

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> Usually - but two things to look at - most compact fluorescent lamps
    >> do not tolerate being operated by a dimmer control. Second, look at
    >> the (usually) ceramic base of the lamp, and you will probably find a
    >> VoltAmp rating - I'm looking at one that says 120 V60Hz, 23 W, .330A
    >> and do you do the numbers, that ain't 23 Watts.


    >I never noticed that. The lamp (clamp on, swing arm) on my computer
    >desk has 660W, 250V on its ceramic base, so I should safely be able to
    >use a fluorescent of 20W or even 30W, as long as it doesn't stick out
    >beyond the shade.


    WHOA!!! Two different things here. The light socket is rated at 660W
    and 250 V, but when the socket gets installed into an assembly such as
    a table or desk lamp, the wattage ratings may be (probably are) reduced
    to account for the problems of disapating the heat - the lamp shade for
    example.

    What I was referring to is the ceramic base of the CFL (military light
    is the entire assembly, lamp is the replaceable light bulb or equal).
    The "light bulb" I was looking at was a common GE "100 Watt equivalent"
    (1600 lumens) CFL, and is labeled as noted above. I've also got "150
    Watt equivalent" (2600 lumens) labeled 40 Watt, 120 V60Hz, 600 ma,
    which is to say 40 Watts, but 72 VA, and a "25 Watt equivalent" marked
    7 Watt, 120M V60Hz, 100 ma, which is to say 7 Watts. but 12 VA.

    While the heat produced is a function of the _wattage_ used, a CFL is
    different from an incandescent in the _source_ of the heat. In the
    latter, it's all in the filament, while the CFL is sourcing heat in
    the glass tube AND the "electronic ballast" in the ceramic base.

    As far as sticking out beyond the lamp shade, that's mainly a cosmetic
    aspect. Some people don't like to see the CFL, as it tends to appear to
    be a bit brighter than the incandescent equivalent. Mechanical safety
    is _probably_ not very significant.

    >I know about dimmers, and that includes "touch on" lamps with several
    >brightness levels. I like those little gadgets that convert any
    >incandescent lamp to a variable-brightness touch-on lamp.


    There are a limited number of CFL designs that will take a dimmer or
    equivalent. They are so marked, and the "ordinary" ones are not.

    >>> (And why do the dollar-store fluorescents emit such visibly blue
    >>> light? Is that why they're sold for $1?)

    >>
    >> Dunno - Cool White as opposed to Warm White?


    >Generally things sold at dollar stores have a reason for being $1...
    >maybe these were out of spec? The white light is noticeably blue even
    >without anything to compare it to.


    Hard to say. My neighborhood Ace Hardware (rarely the low price leader)
    is selling GE 60 Watt Equivalent CFLs for $0.99 or a five-pack for
    $4.98 (say WHAT??? - no, that's not a typ0).

    >The screw-in fluorescents that I got for $1 are visibly on the blue
    >side, even without a reference. There must have been a compromise
    >somewhere.


    I've seen them marked with fairly significant differences in the color
    temperature, but haven't noticed a huge difference in visible light
    colors. I'll have to pay a bit more attention.

    Old guy

  17. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > [compton ~]$ help case
    > case: case WORD in [PATTERN [| PATTERN]...) COMMANDS ;;]... esac
    > Selectively execute COMMANDS based upon WORD matching PATTERN. The
    > `|' is used to separate multiple patterns.
    > [compton ~]$
    >
    > You can actually get pretty exotic, as the 'PATTERN' can include regex.


    bash seems to have all sorts of functionality... I didn't know it
    included string manipulation too. Learning new things every day. I'm
    trying to restrain myself and go for clarity instead of cleverness in
    scripts, though, even if the result does take a few milliseconds longer
    to run.

    > If you are just trying to bail on bad directories, you don't need to
    > set an extra variable - you could just go
    >
    > for DIR in $FINDDIRS ; do
    > if [ ! -d $DIR ] ; then
    > echo "$DIR is not a directory"
    > exit 17
    > fi


    Yes, that is better. I spent so many years working with HLLs that I
    sometimes forget that it IS okay, sometimes, to terminate a loop
    prematurely.

    >> I realize if there's more than one nonexistent directory it will only
    >> catch the last one, but it'll do for now.

    >
    > s/last/first/


    Well, my code would catch the last one. Yours will catch the first one.

    >>> This is fine, and you're not even eligible for the UUOC award ;-)

    >> Ah, good. I'd hate to get that.

    >
    > It's given out pretty often.


    I haven't seen it in this newsgroup. The only Linux discussions I
    follow regularly right now are this NG and the LUG mailing list.

    >> I found one odd use of 'cat'. In a terminal window, the output of 'ps
    >> 7339' (assuming that process exists) gets truncated at the right edge
    >> of the window, but 'ps 7339 | cat' displays the entire line.

    >
    > Actually, it doesn't, at least on the systems I'm trying it. It gives
    > 80 characters worth of display, and I have some lines that are longer
    > than that. Compare 'ps 7339 | cat' with the output of 'ps -w 7339'.


    You're right. 'ps 16761' truncates, but both 'ps 16761 | cat' and 'ps
    -w 16761' display the entire line. This is in a terminal window on a
    KDE desktop... not sure if that matters.

    >> I'm going by the readings on my "Kill-A-Watt" which measures while the
    >> lamp, or whatever, is running. Apparently specs on it are typical
    >> accuracy 0.2%, maximum 2%. Good enough for my purposes.

    >
    > Agreed - most people really don't need more accuracy. Heck, the circuit
    > breaker will _USUALLY_ hold 110 to 120 percent of the "rated" current,
    > though they may eventually trip at that load (tens to hundreds of
    > seconds).


    One of the reasons I bought the gadget in the first place was to
    determine what size UPS to buy. I want one rated WAY above 120% of the
    current system's maximum power usage.

    Adam

  18. Re: [O/T] Fluorescent Lamps

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > What I was referring to is the ceramic base of the CFL (military light
    > is the entire assembly, lamp is the replaceable light bulb or equal).
    > The "light bulb" I was looking at was a common GE "100 Watt equivalent"
    > (1600 lumens) CFL, and is labeled as noted above. I've also got "150
    > Watt equivalent" (2600 lumens) labeled 40 Watt, 120 V60Hz, 600 ma,
    > which is to say 40 Watts, but 72 VA, and a "25 Watt equivalent" marked
    > 7 Watt, 120M V60Hz, 100 ma, which is to say 7 Watts. but 12 VA.


    Oh, okay. The cheapo "75W equiv" just says 15 W, 110-130 V, 50-60 Hz,
    no current rating. My Kill-A-Watt says it's drawing 5 W and 10 VA, PF
    0.56. The name-brand ones do have a current rating.

    > As far as sticking out beyond the lamp shade, that's mainly a cosmetic
    > aspect.


    If the CFL sticks out much beyond the shade on my desk lamp, I know
    it'll get broken sooner or later.

    > There are a limited number of CFL designs that will take a dimmer or
    > equivalent. They are so marked, and the "ordinary" ones are not.


    I'll look for those the next time I'm in Home Depot. I did see "three
    way" CFLs there, 50-100-150 equivalent, for three-way lamps, but of
    course that has nothing to do with dimmers.

    >> Generally things sold at dollar stores have a reason for being $1...
    >> maybe these were out of spec?

    >
    > Hard to say. My neighborhood Ace Hardware (rarely the low price leader)
    > is selling GE 60 Watt Equivalent CFLs for $0.99 or a five-pack for
    > $4.98 (say WHAT??? - no, that's not a typ0).


    Sounds worth stocking up! Unless, of course, they're clearing them out
    to make room for a new improved model.

    > I've seen them marked with fairly significant differences in the color
    > temperature, but haven't noticed a huge difference in visible light
    > colors. I'll have to pay a bit more attention.


    The human eye can get used to all sorts of things. After a while in the
    BW darkroom, I didn't even notice how orange the light was.

    Adam

  19. Re: Scripting, UPS Selection, etc.

    On Thu, 21 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    , Adam wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> [compton ~]$ help case
    >> case: case WORD in [PATTERN [| PATTERN]...) COMMANDS ;;]... esac
    >> Selectively execute COMMANDS based upon WORD matching PATTERN.
    >> The `|' is used to separate multiple patterns.
    >> [compton ~]$
    >>
    >> You can actually get pretty exotic, as the 'PATTERN' can include
    >> regex.

    >
    >bash seems to have all sorts of functionality... I didn't know it
    >included string manipulation too. Learning new things every day.


    It's not just the shell (the Korn shell has some very neat features,
    as does 'ash' and 'zsh'). UNIX as a whole has functionality that most
    people wouldn't dream of. Part of this is due to the history of
    development at schools. This means instructors giving student
    assignments to create this or that tool. (I remember a class I took in
    the 1980s where one homework assignment was to create a spell-checker.
    This was just a glorified shell script that read in a document, and
    used grep to locate words that were not in a dictionary.) By in large,
    these are "throw-away" or "canned" assignments, but a lot of features
    got added in simply because they made sense (at the time). Look at
    all of the options in 'ls' or the perennial example of code bloat 'dig'.

    >I'm trying to restrain myself and go for clarity instead of
    >cleverness in scripts, though, even if the result does take a few
    >milliseconds longer to run.


    I'll occasionally go for 'clever' but unless that trick winds up as
    something I use with some regularity, I find it handy to make some
    effort at documentation. Makes debugging a bit easier. Ran into
    one earlier this week where a script was not doing the right thing
    even though the script has been running for well over a year without
    problems. In simple,

    find /some/place -type f -newer $1 -exec head -15 {} \; | grep ^Foo

    so I was looking for lines that began with Foo - and one pass was
    failing to find it in a file where (slightly untypical) Foo was the
    beginning of the first line. WTF??? A little more investigation,
    and I found that the preceding file found lacked a newline at the
    end of it's data, and this line was being tacked on to the end of
    the last line in the previous file - hence the line didn't _begin_
    with Foo. Wasted ten minutes trying to find that one (including
    maybe 2-3 minutes trying to figure how the script operated), maybe
    another three minutes trying to figure _why_ that file lacked a
    newline (special series of files meant to be concatenated), and
    maybe 20 seconds coming up with (and inserting) the fix (adding a
    -name test to find to ignore the strange file).

    >> for DIR in $FINDDIRS ; do
    >> if [ ! -d $DIR ] ; then
    >> echo "$DIR is not a directory"
    >> exit 17
    >> fi

    >
    >Yes, that is better. I spent so many years working with HLLs that I
    >sometimes forget that it IS okay, sometimes, to terminate a loop
    >prematurely.


    [compton ~]$ help break
    break: break [n]
    Exit from within a FOR, WHILE or UNTIL loop. If N is specified,
    break N levels.
    [compton ~]$

    I've used this to break out of nested loops - rather than setting bail
    out flags and testing them everywhere.

    [UUOC award]

    >I haven't seen it in this newsgroup. The only Linux discussions I
    >follow regularly right now are this NG and the LUG mailing list.


    I scan so many groups, I can't keep track of where/when I saw it last.
    It really does happen more often than needed.

    >You're right. 'ps 16761' truncates, but both 'ps 16761 | cat' and 'ps
    >-w 16761' display the entire line. This is in a terminal window on a
    >KDE desktop... not sure if that matters.


    Sounds as if your terminal is narrower than 80 char, but none of your
    ps output is. I prefer (like many, I suppose) holding stuff to an 80
    character limit, and many of my terminals are sized to that. But I also
    run into conditions when having an extra wide terminal is handy. I've
    had them as wide as 500 character wide (spanning three windows on my
    desktop), but that's rare.

    >One of the reasons I bought the gadget in the first place was to
    >determine what size UPS to buy. I want one rated WAY above 120% of
    >the current system's maximum power usage.


    You won't get disagreement from me on that. I've seen "desk-side"
    units (sucker is to big and heavy to be on a desk) rated at 4.4KVA or
    3.5 KW. (It needed a dedicated 240V/20A circuit.) Realistically, I'd
    tend to go with the largest unit I can find before the price break
    that will not trip the fuse/breakers at max load. Having the excess
    capacity means the running time is longer, although the recharge time
    also increases.

    Old guy

  20. Re: [O/T] Fluorescent Lamps

    On Thu, 21 Aug 2008, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandriva, in article
    , Adam wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> I've also got "150 Watt equivalent" (2600 lumens) labeled 40 Watt,
    >> 120 V60Hz, 600 ma, which is to say 40 Watts, but 72 VA, and a "25
    >> Watt equivalent" marked 7 Watt, 120M V60Hz, 100 ma, which is to say
    >> 7 Watts. but 12 VA.


    >Oh, okay. The cheapo "75W equiv" just says 15 W, 110-130 V, 50-60 Hz,
    >no current rating. My Kill-A-Watt says it's drawing 5 W and 10 VA, PF
    >0.56. The name-brand ones do have a current rating.


    Most of the CFLs seem to have pretty horrible power factors - there is
    an international standard (International Electroctechnical Commission)
    that wants the PF to be 0.96 or better, but makes an exception for CFLs
    of 25 Watts or less - so the typical "100 Watt equivalent" is often
    exempt, and the "150 Watt equivalent" should have PF compensation
    circuitry of some form. Another problem is that CFLs tend to be RFI
    (Radio Frequency Interference) generators, (but how many people listen
    to AM radio now). Electronic dimmers (which are usually just an SCR
    or SCS with variable RC delay into the cycle) have similar PF and RFI
    problems, especially at low settings where the cycle is cropped a lot.

    >> As far as sticking out beyond the lamp shade, that's mainly a
    >> cosmetic aspect.

    >
    >If the CFL sticks out much beyond the shade on my desk lamp, I know
    >it'll get broken sooner or later.


    I know what you are saying - but I've got several lights like that,
    and haven't run into the problem. It might be a habit from decades of
    "don't bump the light" traditions ;-)

    >> There are a limited number of CFL designs that will take a dimmer or
    >> equivalent. They are so marked, and the "ordinary" ones are not.

    >
    >I'll look for those the next time I'm in Home Depot. I did see "three
    >way" CFLs there, 50-100-150 equivalent, for three-way lamps, but of
    >course that has nothing to do with dimmers.


    I've seen the three-ways, but never bought one. I know that many of the
    desk and table lamps you buy come with three-way sockets, but it seems
    the first thing I do when I get time is to replace the sockets with a
    standard on/off type. Off the top of the head, I think that every
    portable lamp (meaning those with a plug) are using CFLs now. Each main
    room in the house has a ceiling fan, and they're all equipped with
    built-in lights - they're still incandescent mainly because they are
    used so infrequently.

    For that matter, they are also selling CFL outdoor flood lights - and I
    haven't bought those either, in spite of having six floods in the back
    yard. During the more seasonable times of the year, we do spend some
    evening time out on the back porch, and there are two bug zappers out
    there - one on a 5-10 PM timer, one on a switch. I wonder how
    attractive the CFLs are to bugs?

    >> My neighborhood Ace Hardware (rarely the low price leader) is
    >> selling GE 60 Watt Equivalent CFLs for $0.99 or a five-pack for
    >> $4.98 (say WHAT??? - no, that's not a typ0).

    >
    >Sounds worth stocking up! Unless, of course, they're clearing them
    >out to make room for a new improved model.


    I don't know. I don't need that much for stock, as they were on sale
    some time ago at Home Despot, and I bought a couple of 3 and 5 packs
    then. I've probably got enough spares to replace half the lights in the
    house now.

    >The human eye can get used to all sorts of things. After a while in
    >the BW darkroom, I didn't even notice how orange the light was.


    The film sure did (or not as you wish to interpret that).

    Old guy

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