On 2007-05-18, mandra wrote:
> I have WinXP and Suse 10.2 on my pc and want to install Mandriva...
> Will mandriva pick those two previous installations and put them on
> GRUB list? Is there any risk that I may stuff up with one of them?

In theory, it should work out pretty well to use Mandriva's
Grub to boot everything. However, if the next thing you
install over Mandriva's /boot goes wrong, it could prevent
you from booting anything.

For your consideration, I would suggest using a boot manager
(like SBM) in the MBR, and have each OS/distribution's boot
stuff in its own (/boot or /) partition's boot record. The
biggest advantage I see for doing that is that if one
distribution's stuff gets messed up, all the others can be
booted without problem.

Recently, I took an existing system with Mandriva 2006's
Grub in the MBR and switched it to SBM in the MBR and each
release's Grub stuff in its own partition. I was almost
shocked at how easily it was to switch the MBR over to SBM.
All you have to remember to do is install Grub stuff in the
/boot (or /) partition's boot block before overwriting the
MBR.

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@verizon.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

mandra wrote:
> I have WinXP and Suse 10.2 on my pc and want to install Mandriva...
> Will mandriva pick those two previous installations and put them on
> GRUB list? Is there any risk that I may stuff up with one of them?
> Thanks.
>

I am doing that, so it is possible, if you can keep the /boot
directories separate. You will also have to manually edit the GRUB
config file to add the Mandriva stanza.

Note that I am using the same swap partition for both Suse and Mandriva.
The caveat I was told is that I cannot Suspend when I exit either OS -
I must take a normal shutdown or restart.

Here is my file from
/boot/grub/menu.lst
- the one that was on the original Suse install, that I edited to add
Mandriva. This is still where I boot from.

Pardon the odd line breaks of my news posting client.

###Don't change this comment - YaST2 identifier: Original name: linux###
title SUSE LINUX 10.0
root (hd0,0)
kernel /vmlinuz root=/dev/sda11 vga=795 selinux=0
resume=/dev/sda2 splash=silent showopts
initrd /initrd

title Mandriva 2007 Spring
root (hd0,11)
kernel (hd0,11)/boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda12 resume=/dev/sda2 vga=788
initrd (hd0,11)/boot/initrd.img

###Don't change this comment - YaST2 identifier: Original name: windows###
# I edited this to try to make it work
# lots of problems to get this to work. Here is a suggestion that
somebody else got on the newsgroup
# finally figured it out by reading an on-line GRUB manual plus what I
saw here
# the first new drive is the SATA drive, which is linux.
# Windows is on the 2nd partition of the 2nd drive, which give us hd1,1
in the chainloader line
title Windows
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
map (hd1) (hd0)
map (hd0) (hd1)
makeactive
chainloader (hd1,1)+1




Good luck with it

73 de Jim, KD1YV

On 17 May 2007 19:28:05 -0700, mandra wrote:
> I have WinXP and Suse 10.2 on my pc and want to install Mandriva...
> Will mandriva pick those two previous installations and put them on
> GRUB list?

No, just windows.

> Is there any risk that I may stuff up with one of them?

We have no idea how proficent you are or if Murphy is going to help
with your install.

There is always risk.

In the past, I straightened out my legs under the desk managed to kick
the wall plug which power gliched my system. Cheap ass power supply
managed to burn out a stick of ram and scramble my disk.
I moved the desk so /that/ does not happen again.

I can suggest you create the free/unformated/unknown partition where
you want to install any linux. Now you can pick Custom during the Mandriva
Partition phase, click the unknown/free partition,
click create, mount and set Mount Point: /, which
Mandriva will format and install there. While in the Partition
Phase, you can click your Suse partition,
mount and set Mount Point: /suse. It will not format it.

Screen shots found here http://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_mandriva_2007
Old release, but a bit larger screen shots found here
http://doc.mandrivalinux.com/Mandrak...akx-intro.html

After Mandriva is up, you can
cat /suse/boot/grub/menu.lst
and cut/paste your suse stanza into Mandriva's /boot/grub/menu.lst,
and there you are with your multi-boot selection on next boot.

The above assumes you pick grub as your boot loader.

Note: you will have to put a Mandriva stanza in your Suse's menu.lst
and reinstall grub from Suse if you want Suse's menu.lst to be the
master boot loader.

On 2007-05-18, Robert M. Riches Jr. wrote:
> On 2007-05-18, mandra wrote:
>> I have WinXP and Suse 10.2 on my pc and want to install Mandriva...
>> Will mandriva pick those two previous installations and put them on
>> GRUB list? Is there any risk that I may stuff up with one of them?
>
> In theory, it should work out pretty well to use Mandriva's
> Grub to boot everything. However, if the next thing you
> install over Mandriva's /boot goes wrong, it could prevent
> you from booting anything.
>
> For your consideration, I would suggest using a boot manager
> (like SBM) in the MBR, and have each OS/distribution's boot
> stuff in its own (/boot or /) partition's boot record. The
> biggest advantage I see for doing that is that if one
> distribution's stuff gets messed up, all the others can be
> booted without problem.
>
> Recently, I took an existing system with Mandriva 2006's
> Grub in the MBR and switched it to SBM in the MBR and each
> release's Grub stuff in its own partition. I was almost
> shocked at how easily it was to switch the MBR over to SBM.
> All you have to remember to do is install Grub stuff in the
> /boot (or /) partition's boot block before overwriting the
> MBR.

That's exactly what I do, apart from preferring GAG to SBM. At one point
I had about 6 OSs 'dual booting' on one machine.



--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

On May 18, 12:26 am, JimR wrote:
> mandra wrote:
> > I have WinXP and Suse 10.2 on my pc and want to install Mandriva...
> > Will mandriva pick those two previous installations and put them on
> > GRUB list? Is there any risk that I may stuff up with one of them?
> > Thanks.
>
> I am doing that, so it is possible, if you can keep the /boot
> directories separate. You will also have to manually edit the GRUB
> config file to add the Mandriva stanza.
>
> Note that I am using the same swap partition for both Suse and Mandriva.
> The caveat I was told is that I cannot Suspend when I exit either OS -
> I must take a normal shutdown or restart.
>
> Here is my file from
> /boot/grub/menu.lst
> - the one that was on the original Suse install, that I edited to add
> Mandriva. This is still where I boot from.
>
> Pardon the odd line breaks of my news posting client.
>
> ###Don't change this comment - YaST2 identifier: Original name: linux###
> title SUSE LINUX 10.0
> root (hd0,0)
> kernel /vmlinuz root=/dev/sda11 vga=795 selinux=0
> resume=/dev/sda2 splash=silent showopts
> initrd /initrd
>
> title Mandriva 2007 Spring
> root (hd0,11)
> kernel (hd0,11)/boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda12 resume=/dev/sda2 vga=788
> initrd (hd0,11)/boot/initrd.img
>
> ###Don't change this comment - YaST2 identifier: Original name: windows###
> # I edited this to try to make it work
> # lots of problems to get this to work. Here is a suggestion that
> somebody else got on the newsgroup
> # finally figured it out by reading an on-line GRUB manual plus what I
> saw here
> # the first new drive is the SATA drive, which is linux.
> # Windows is on the 2nd partition of the 2nd drive, which give us hd1,1
> in the chainloader line
> title Windows
> rootnoverify (hd0,0)
> map (hd1) (hd0)
> map (hd0) (hd1)
> makeactive
> chainloader (hd1,1)+1
>
This made me curious, especially the 2 map statements. Mandriva is on
my primary hard drive now. My previous Mandrake 10.1 is in hdb2 with
its own lilo but I have to physically set the 'master' and 'slave'
jumpers if I wanted that OS to run (old games and dosbox and other
apps); I really don't need Mandriva 2007.0 while in that session. But
if I boot to Mandriva I sometimes use old apps on the Mandrake drive
(am doing that now) by using export PATH=blahblah. Can I use map to
avoid setting jumper settings?

On Fri, 18 May 2007 06:51:57 -0700, shedied wrote:


> This made me curious, especially the 2 map statements. Mandriva is on
> my primary hard drive now. My previous Mandrake 10.1 is in hdb2 with
> its own lilo but I have to physically set the 'master' and 'slave'
> jumpers if I wanted that OS to run (old games and dosbox and other
> apps); I really don't need Mandriva 2007.0 while in that session. But
> if I boot to Mandriva I sometimes use old apps on the Mandrake drive
> (am doing that now) by using export PATH=blahblah. Can I use map to
> avoid setting jumper settings?

You don't need the map statements. You need to change your fstab on the
hdb drive to reflect the fact that your / partition is on /dev/hdb(n),
rather than /dev/hda(n), then provide a boot stanza for it in your
/boot/grub/menu.lst, or lilo.conf, of the Mandriva installation. Linux
doesn't care where it boots from, as long as your boot loader and fstab
are correct.*Only Windows needs to be tricked into believing it is on
hda, if it's not.

--
imotgm
"Lost? Lost? I've never been lost... Been a tad confused for a
month or two, but never lost."

Thanks guys for all your responses. Few things I want to ask before I
install Mandriva:

1. How much partition size I need to prepare to install Mandriva if
what i need is: standard packages (office, internet apps (browser,
email, chat, etc), multimedia (audio and video player)) and apache,
mysql, php

2. Will I expect Mandriva runs faster than OpenSUSE? I am currently
happy with OpenSUSE but it slows down the system a bit when apache-php-
mysql is running.

Thanks for your input.

On May 18, 6:39 pm, Bit Twister wrote:
> On 17 May 2007 19:28:05 -0700, mandra wrote:
>
> > I have WinXP and Suse 10.2 on my pc and want to install Mandriva...
> > Will mandriva pick those two previous installations and put them on
> > GRUB list?
>
> No, just windows.
>
> > Is there any risk that I may stuff up with one of them?
>
> We have no idea how proficent you are or if Murphy is going to help
> with your install.
>
> There is always risk.
>
> In the past, I straightened out my legs under the desk managed to kick
> the wall plug which power gliched my system. Cheap ass power supply
> managed to burn out a stick of ram and scramble my disk.
> I moved the desk so /that/ does not happen again.
>
> I can suggest you create the free/unformated/unknown partition where
> you want to install any linux. Now you can pick Custom during the Mandriva
> Partition phase, click the unknown/free partition,
> click create, mount and set Mount Point: /, which
> Mandriva will format and install there. While in the Partition
> Phase, you can click your Suse partition,
> mount and set Mount Point: /suse. It will not format it.
>
> Screen shots found herehttp://www.howtoforge.com/perfect_setup_mandriva_2007
> Old release, but a bit larger screen shots found herehttp://doc.mandrivalinux.com/MandrakeLinux/101/en/Starter.html/drakx-...
>
> After Mandriva is up, you can
> cat /suse/boot/grub/menu.lst
> and cut/paste your suse stanza into Mandriva's /boot/grub/menu.lst,
> and there you are with your multi-boot selection on next boot.
>
> The above assumes you pick grub as your boot loader.
>
> Note: you will have to put a Mandriva stanza in your Suse's menu.lst
> and reinstall grub from Suse if you want Suse's menu.lst to be the
> master boot loader.

On 18 May 2007 14:06:33 -0700, mandra wrote:
>
> 1. How much partition size I need to prepare to install Mandriva if
> what i need is: standard packages (office, internet apps (browser,
> email, chat, etc), multimedia (audio and video player)) and apache,
> mysql, php

I have ~10 gig partitions for installs. Leaves room for an extra gig
of games I add and update space with room to dink around. I install all
package groups except LSB and load KDE/GNOME from the Desktop group.

http://doc.mandrivalinux.com/Mandrak...choosePackages

$ df -m /
Filesystem 1M-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/sda12 10486 6722 3231 68% /


> 2. Will I expect Mandriva runs faster than OpenSUSE? I am currently
> happy with OpenSUSE but it slows down the system a bit when apache-php-
> mysql is running.

No idea. I find 2007.1 running faster than the 2007.0 release.
Then again I have not fired up mysql. Only use Apachie to cruise info
documents.


PS: Do not top post as it may avergate the people you want answers
from and TRIM YOUR FREAKING POSTS. 8-)

imotgm wrote:
> On Fri, 18 May 2007 06:51:57 -0700, shedied wrote:
>
>
>> This made me curious, especially the 2 map statements. Mandriva is on
>> my primary hard drive now. My previous Mandrake 10.1 is in hdb2 with
>> its own lilo but I have to physically set the 'master' and 'slave'
>> jumpers if I wanted that OS to run (old games and dosbox and other
>> apps); I really don't need Mandriva 2007.0 while in that session. But
>> if I boot to Mandriva I sometimes use old apps on the Mandrake drive
>> (am doing that now) by using export PATH=blahblah. Can I use map to
>> avoid setting jumper settings?
>
> You don't need the map statements. You need to change your fstab on the
> hdb drive to reflect the fact that your / partition is on /dev/hdb(n),
> rather than /dev/hda(n), then provide a boot stanza for it in your
> /boot/grub/menu.lst, or lilo.conf, of the Mandriva installation. Linux
> doesn't care where it boots from, as long as your boot loader and fstab
> are correct. Only Windows needs to be tricked into believing it is on
> hda, if it's not.
>

I *do need* the map statements in my case. That was the only way that
Windoze would load. Windows always assumes that it is on the 0 drive,
but in my case, when I installed a new SATA drive, it became drive 0,
and the old PATA drive became drive 1. The BIOS did not give any option
to change this.

Updates to fstab will not help booting Wind'ohs. fstab is not even read
until Linux starts. GRUB is a boot loader, and does not read fstab.

73 de Jim, KD1YV

On Fri, 18 May 2007 23:13:12 -0400, JimR wrote:

> imotgm wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 May 2007 06:51:57 -0700, shedied wrote:
>>
>>
>>> This made me curious, especially the 2 map statements. Mandriva is on
>>> my primary hard drive now. My previous Mandrake 10.1 is in hdb2 with
>>> its own lilo but I have to physically set the 'master' and 'slave'
>>> jumpers if I wanted that OS to run (old games and dosbox and other
>>> apps); I really don't need Mandriva 2007.0 while in that session. But
>>> if I boot to Mandriva I sometimes use old apps on the Mandrake drive
>>> (am doing that now) by using export PATH=blahblah. Can I use map to
>>> avoid setting jumper settings?
>>
>> You don't need the map statements. You need to change your fstab on the
>> hdb drive to reflect the fact that your / partition is on /dev/hdb(n),
>> rather than /dev/hda(n), then provide a boot stanza for it in your
>> /boot/grub/menu.lst, or lilo.conf, of the Mandriva installation. Linux
>> doesn't care where it boots from, as long as your boot loader and fstab
>> are correct. Only Windows needs to be tricked into believing it is on
>> hda, if it's not.
>>
>
> I *do need* the map statements in my case. That was the only way that
> Windoze would load. Windows always assumes that it is on the 0 drive,
> but in my case, when I installed a new SATA drive, it became drive 0,
> and the old PATA drive became drive 1. The BIOS did not give any option
> to change this.
>
> Updates to fstab will not help booting Wind'ohs. fstab is not even read
> until Linux starts. GRUB is a boot loader, and does not read fstab.

I left this post untrimmed so you can, again, read what was previously
written in the other posts. I in no way made any reference to your
problem with Windows booting. I answered the question from shedied, about
whether the map statements would help with a Mandrake 10.1 boot problem. I
also mentioned that only Windows needs the map statements. What you have
written may, or my not, be factual, but it has no bearing on this part of
the conversation. Maybe in the future it would be of benefit to you to
actually read the post you are replying to, as well as the preceding post
to which that post was replying to, so that you can keep up with the
general drift of the conversation.

--
imotgm
"Lost? Lost? I've never been lost... Been a tad confused for a
month or two, but never lost."

On May 18, 4:15 pm, imotgm wrote:
> On Fri, 18 May 2007 06:51:57 -0700, shedied wrote:
> > This made me curious, especially the 2 map statements. Mandriva is on
> > my primary hard drive now. My previous Mandrake 10.1 is in hdb2 with
> > its own lilo but I have to physically set the 'master' and 'slave'
> > jumpers if I wanted that OS to run (old games and dosbox and other
> > apps); I really don't need Mandriva 2007.0 while in that session. But
> > if I boot to Mandriva I sometimes use old apps on the Mandrake drive
> > (am doing that now) by using export PATH=blahblah. Can I use map to
> > avoid setting jumper settings?
>
> You don't need the map statements. You need to change your fstab on the
> hdb drive to reflect the fact that your / partition is on /dev/hdb(n),
> rather than /dev/hda(n), then provide a boot stanza for it in your
> /boot/grub/menu.lst, or lilo.conf, of the Mandriva installation. Linux
> doesn't care where it boots from, as long as your boot loader and fstab
> are correct. Only Windows needs to be tricked into believing it is on
> hda, if it's not.
>
I tried it out, and it *almost* made it to the login screen (console,
runlevel 3)--the only thing missing was the login prompt. WHen I hit
ESC on the boot messages, it shows me that /var/log/utmp or wtmp or
similar can't be found, when it happens to be hdb9 in the modified
fstab. And it can't even replace the dmesg in /var/log, because when I
go back to the Mandriva side, which boots properly, dmesg has a date
of May 14. THat was the last time I had to use Mandrake by changing
the jumper settings physically on the drives.

On Mon, 21 May 2007 11:15:59 -0400, wrote:

> I tried it out, and it *almost* made it to the login screen (console,
> runlevel 3)--the only thing missing was the login prompt. WHen I hit
> ESC on the boot messages, it shows me that /var/log/utmp or wtmp or
> similar can't be found, when it happens to be hdb9 in the modified

Something is still wrong with either the lilo config, or the fstab.

Please post the lilo.conf, the /etc/fstab from the failing system,
and the output of sfdisk -l, or fdisk -l.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)

On May 21, 3:43 pm, "David W. Hodgins"
wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2007 11:15:59 -0400, wrote:
> > I tried it out, and it *almost* made it to the login screen (console,
> > runlevel 3)--the only thing missing was the login prompt. WHen I hit
> > ESC on the boot messages, it shows me that /var/log/utmp or wtmp or
> > similar can't be found, when it happens to be hdb9 in the modified
>
> Something is still wrong with either the lilo config, or the fstab.
>
> Please post the lilo.conf, the /etc/fstab from the failing system,
> and the output of sfdisk -l, or fdisk -l.
>
so I tried this, hoping to boot to Mandrake 10.1 (the boot stanza
referring
to linuxOLD is Mandrake 10.1) "ROOT" in uppercase happens to simply be
a
mnemonic device I use to distinguish between the existing "/" in
Mandriva/hda1 and the "/" in Mandrake/hdb5. The only way lilo would
complete
is, if it found that old /boot/initrd; it would fail otherwise.

lilo.conf
- - - - -
# File generated by DrakX/drakboot
# WARNING: do not forget to run lilo after modifying this file
default="linux"
boot=/dev/hda
map=/boot/map
keytable=/boot/us.klt
menu-scheme=wb:bw:wb:bw
compact
prompt
nowarn
timeout=100
message=/boot/message
image=/boot/vmlinuz
label="linux"
root=/dev/hda1
initrd=/boot/initrd.img
append=" splash=silent"
vga=791
image=/boot/vmlinuz
label="linuxOLD"
root=/dev/hdb5
initrd=/ROOT/boot/initrd
append="devfs=nomount acpi=ht splash=silent"
vga=791
read-only
image=/boot/vmlinuz
label="linux-nonfb"
root=/dev/hda1
initrd=/boot/initrd.img
append=" splash=silent"
image=/boot/vmlinuz
label="failsafe"
root=/dev/hda1
initrd=/boot/initrd.img
append="failsafe"
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
OUTPUT of sfdisk -l
Disk /dev/hdb: 20.4 GB, 20416757760 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 2482 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
/dev/hdb1 * 1 638 5124703+ c W95 FAT32
(LBA)
/dev/hdb2 1152 2483 10692832+ 5 Extended
/dev/hdb3 639 1151 4120672+ c W95 FAT32
(LBA)
/dev/hdb5 1152 1597 3582463+ 83 Linux
/dev/hdb6 1598 1628 248976 82 Linux swap /
Solaris
/dev/hdb7 1629 1759 1052226 83 Linux
/dev/hdb8 1760 2365 4867663+ 83 Linux
/dev/hdb9 2366 2483 941346 83 Linux

Partition table entries are not in disk order
BTW, hdb7 is where /home resides, hdb8 is /usr and hdb9 is /var. What
I was
hoping to achieve was a successful dual boot to Mandrake10.1 that
would
completely disregard or be unaware that Mandriva 2007 is in hda.

On 22 May 2007 13:02:31 -0700, shedied@gmail.com wrote:

> so I tried this, hoping to boot to Mandrake 10.1 (the boot stanza
> referring to linuxOLD is Mandrake 10.1) "ROOT" in uppercase happens
> to simply be a mnemonic device I use to distinguish between the
> existing "/" in Mandriva/hda1 and the "/" in Mandrake/hdb5. The only
> way lilo would complete is, if it found that old /boot/initrd; it
> would fail otherwise.

What you can do, is create mount points for the other distro/release
and add that to the lilo stanza. Here is my lilo.conf snippet with 3
Mandriva releases and 2 another distributions.

image=/boot/vmlinuz
label="/2007_1"
root=/dev/hdb12
initrd=/boot/initrd.img
append="splash=0"
vga=788
image=/2007_0/boot/vmlinuz <===== mount point is /2007_0
label="/2007_0"
root=/dev/hdb15
initrd=/2007_0/boot/initrd.img <===== mount point is /2007_0
append="splash=0"
vga=788
image=/2006oe/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.12-27mdk-i586-up-1GB <=== /2006oe
label="/2006oe"
root=/dev/hdb6
initrd=/2006oe/boot/initrd-2.6.12-27mdk-i586-up-1GB.img <=== /2006oe
append="splash=0"
vga=788
image=/suse/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.13-15.13-default <=== /suse
label="/suse"
root=/dev/hdb14
initrd=/suse/boot/initrd-2.6.13-15.13-default <=== /suse
append="showopts selinux=0 resume=/dev/hdb1 splash=0"
vga=0x31a
image=/fc5/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 <=== /fc5
label="/fc5"
initrd=/fc5/boot/initrd-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.img <=== /fc5
append="root=LABEL=/fc5 ro rhgb quiet"
vga=788

On Tue, 22 May 2007 16:02:31 -0400, wrote:

> image=/boot/vmlinuz
Change the above line to "image=/ROOT/boot/vmlinuz"
> label="linuxOLD"
> root=/dev/hdb5
> initrd=/ROOT/boot/initrd
> append="devfs=nomount acpi=ht splash=silent"
> vga=791
> read-only

Also, check the contents of /ROOT/etc/fstab, to ensure the
entries point to the appropriate hdb partitions.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)

On May 22, 4:54 pm, "David W. Hodgins"
wrote:
> On Tue, 22 May 2007 16:02:31 -0400, wrote:
> > image=/boot/vmlinuz
>
> Change the above line to "image=/ROOT/boot/vmlinuz"
>
> > label="linuxOLD"
> > root=/dev/hdb5
> > initrd=/ROOT/boot/initrd
> > append="devfs=nomount acpi=ht splash=silent"
> > vga=791
> > read-only
>
> Also, check the contents of /ROOT/etc/fstab, to ensure the
> entries point to the appropriate hdb partitions.
>
SUCCESS! Thank you David and BitTwister, am writing this reply on old
Mandrake. Hard to get rid of totally, if you've grown accustomed to
its friendly face.

On Tue, 22 May 2007 22:42:15 -0400, wrote:

> SUCCESS! Thank you David and BitTwister, am writing this reply on old
> Mandrake. Hard to get rid of totally, if you've grown accustomed to
> its friendly face.

Thanks for lettings us know it worked.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)