Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake - Mandrake

This is a discussion on Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake - Mandrake ; On Sun, 10 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article , Another Adam wrote: >Moe Trin wrote: >> Distro groups 2H04 1H05 2H05 1H06 2H06 1H07 >> Mandr* 2 25698 27063 19569 15095 13321 6546 >> Redhat 6 ...

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Thread: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

  1. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    On Sun, 10 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    <136p62kna0lqrb9@corp.supernews.com>, Another Adam wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> Distro groups 2H04 1H05 2H05 1H06 2H06 1H07
    >> Mandr* 2 25698 27063 19569 15095 13321 6546
    >> Redhat 6 9922 8336 5339 4940 3323 2203
    >> SuSE 2 - 20799 20096 17002 15209 7263
    >> Ubuntu 1 460 2334 4862 11915

    >
    >That's interesting. Readership in all of those has been dropping,
    >except for Ubuntu which has REALLY taken off. Do you think that's due
    >to Ubuntu's quality, or ease of use, or their marketing, or what?


    I suspect it's merely the latest fad. The average casual user can
    be somewhat fickle. There was a similar major shift when Red Hat came
    out in 1995, another somewhat after Mandrake came out, as well as minor
    blips when Corel, Storm, and TurboLinux became available. Even Caldera
    set the world on end for a time with their click-and-drool friendly
    install tool in 1999 (which most other distributions more-or-less
    copied. Ubuntu is yet another Debian clone, dumbed down a bit more.

    >At the last LUG meeting, they were giving out Ubuntu "Feisty Fawn" CDs,
    >and I may even install it on an unused partition to see what all the
    >hoopla is about.


    "Feisty Fawn" is release 7.04 (year 7, month 4, or April 2007). They
    seem to be releasing twice a year, with the next one tentatively named
    Gutsy Gibbon. It is claimed that the names are meaningless. I looked at
    the first two releases (Warty Warthog or 4.10, and Hoary Hedgehog or
    5.04) and decided they were aimed at a different user.

    >I think that some people have left Usenet due to unpleasantness in
    >various NGs.


    I can't say

    >Also, I think that NGs have a bit of a reputation as "geeky" because
    >you can't access them with your web browser but actually have to learn
    >a new program.


    ]User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4)
    Gecko/20070509 SeaMonkey/1.1.2

    I dunno - what's that? Looking at headers in comp.os.linux.* and
    alt.os.linux.* I see a number of people using browsers in addition to
    real news tools like nn, pan, slrn, tin... who's the dinosaur using
    xrn? Some developer by the look of it - alt.os.linux.debian.

    >There are web-based boards that are actually mirrors of NGs. Some of
    >those web sites try to give the impression that it's their own "message
    >board."


    Well, yeah - http://groups.google.com is one notorious example, with a
    reputation for spam that has a lot of people killing any article with a
    "Message-ID:" ending in 'google.com' There's a shark here that does
    that and suggests how other can too.

    >ALL of those seem to be declining overall. I think we may just have to
    >accept that Usenet is becoming less popular. Of course, as Linux users
    >we are already used to being in a minority, and we are used to working
    >with things that might be considered "too geeky" by many.


    I don't know if it's to geeky, or is something that ISPs are not telling
    their customers about. Usenet takes up an enormous amount of bandwidth
    on the wire, and a "proper" news server with perhaps 50-125K groups
    and retentivity (a week or two for binary groups, up to a year or so
    for text based groups) means a fair amount of disk space. You may
    occasionally see someone talking about "the endless September"

    [compton ~]$ date +"Today is %d %B %Y" ; sep_date
    Today is 11 June 2007
    Today is 5032 September, 1993 UTC
    [compton ~]$

    September 1993 was when AOL released their users onto Usenet. But AOL
    has ceased offering network news. and in their "tough bananas" message
    to their customers recommended they use google groups. A lot of other
    providers are also dropping Usenet as a cost cutting development. The
    result is fewer people having "direct" access. You can see this if you
    look at the news headers, and parse out the "Path:' header. You see
    fewer and fewer organizations listed. (That header lists the servers
    between your news server, and the posting news server. You are posting
    from Supernews, and that's nine hops from me - six in Supernews, San
    Diego State University, and two in giganews.)

    Old guy

  2. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    On 11 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    , The First Adam wrote:

    >Adam wrote:
    >> Another Adam wrote:


    >Jeez, how many Adams *are* there in here?


    Apparently more than a few

    >The First Adam


    Is that a dorsal fin I see...

    WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!!

    MAN THE DEPTH CHARGE RACKS! ;-)

    Old guy

  3. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > On 11 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    >, The First Adam wrote:
    >
    >>Adam wrote:
    >>> Another Adam wrote:

    >
    >>Jeez, how many Adams *are* there in here?

    >
    > Apparently more than a few
    >
    >>The First Adam

    >
    > Is that a dorsal fin I see...
    >
    > WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!! WHOOP!!!
    >
    > MAN THE DEPTH CHARGE RACKS! ;-)





    --
    Blinky RLU 297263
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

  4. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Adam wrote:
    > Like, some noise applies to ALL groups, and
    > some groups attract HIGH noise. Readers are
    > attracted to SUBJECTS or specific-groups, first
    > and foremost surely.


    Yes, definitely. For example, a few months ago I subscribed to
    rec.photo.equipment.35mm because I thought they'd discuss 35mm photo
    equipment. After a week or two I unsubscribed because so few of the
    posts had to do with the supposed topic.

    > So its still perplexing why a.o.l.mandrake may
    > be drying up - apart from the possible and incomplete
    > migration to a.o.l.mandriva, where available.


    I can understand why a.o.l.mandrake is losing readers, as older users
    switch from some version of Mandrake to some version of Mandriva 2007.
    Newer users may not realize that Mandriva was ever known as anything
    else. What I'm worried about is that I'd expect that people who used to
    post to a.o.l.mandrake would now post to a.o.l.mandriva, and I'd expect
    the sum of the posts to both groups would stay about the same or
    increase slightly.

    In my case I started in a.o.l.mandrake, then added a.o.l.mandriva when
    my server carried it. By now it looks like most folks are hanging out
    at a.o.l.mandriva, so when I have a question (which is often!), I post
    it to a.o.l.mandriva because more people are likely to see it there.

    Another Adam

  5. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    The First Adam wrote:
    > Adam wrote:
    >> Another Adam wrote:

    >
    > Jeez, how many Adams *are* there in here?


    I think the number's going to increase. The name got more popular in
    the 1970s. I'm from the end of the baby boom, and in my whole life I've
    only met two or three Adams who were around my age, and never met one
    who was older. ("Adam West" is the stage name of William West Anderson,
    born 1928.) If you hear of someone named Adam, chances are good that
    he's mid-thirties or younger.

    Another Adam

  6. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > "Feisty Fawn" is release 7.04 (year 7, month 4, or April 2007). They
    > seem to be releasing twice a year, with the next one tentatively named
    > Gutsy Gibbon. It is claimed that the names are meaningless. I looked at
    > the first two releases (Warty Warthog or 4.10, and Hoary Hedgehog or
    > 5.04) and decided they were aimed at a different user.


    Thanks for explaining their numbering scheme. That's why my system's
    partitioned to allow more than one distro. I get the impression that a
    lot of Linux users have at least one "experimental" distro installed, in
    addition to the one used for everyday work.

    >> Also, I think that NGs have a bit of a reputation as "geeky" because
    >> you can't access them with your web browser but actually have to learn
    >> a new program.

    >
    > ]User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4)
    > Gecko/20070509 SeaMonkey/1.1.2
    >
    > I dunno - what's that? Looking at headers in comp.os.linux.* and
    > alt.os.linux.* I see a number of people using browsers in addition to
    > real news tools like nn, pan, slrn, tin... who's the dinosaur using
    > xrn? Some developer by the look of it - alt.os.linux.debian.


    Okay, maybe it's the same program, but Usenet involves all sorts of new
    commands and rules. It's sort of like a corner of the web that most
    people don't know about, and some of the few who do are put off by
    having to learn all sorts of new things to access it. (Yes, I know that
    Usenet is not part of the Web!)

    >> There are web-based boards that are actually mirrors of NGs. Some of
    >> those web sites try to give the impression that it's their own "message
    >> board."

    >
    > Well, yeah - http://groups.google.com is one notorious example, with a
    > reputation for spam that has a lot of people killing any article with a
    > "Message-ID:" ending in 'google.com' There's a shark here that does
    > that and suggests how other can too.


    I was thinking more of sites like
    http://www.hostingforum.ca/mandrake.html where you will find this very
    thread displayed as if we were members of a web-based board.

    > I don't know if it's too geeky, or is something that ISPs are not telling
    > their customers about. Usenet takes up an enormous amount of bandwidth
    > on the wire, and a "proper" news server with perhaps 50-125K groups
    > and retentivity (a week or two for binary groups, up to a year or so
    > for text based groups) means a fair amount of disk space.


    I'm switching ISPs, and I don't recall my new ISP mentioning anything at
    all about Usenet newsgroups in their advertising. (My old ISP did
    mention "over 40,000 newsgroups" in their ads.) It turns out that my
    new ISP has about 30,000 newsgroups but I figured that if it didn't
    include Usenet, I could find a decent newsserver for a low price.

    > A lot of other
    > providers are also dropping Usenet as a cost cutting development. The
    > result is fewer people having "direct" access. You can see this if you
    > look at the news headers, and parse out the "Path:' header. You see
    > fewer and fewer organizations listed. (That header lists the servers
    > between your news server, and the posting news server. You are posting
    > from Supernews, and that's nine hops from me - six in Supernews, San
    > Diego State University, and two in giganews.)


    I'm surprised to see SDSU in there. I think I'm now posting from
    trndny09, or maybe gnilink.net. The "Path:" header reminds me of my
    college days, when we had to explicitly route email through the gateways
    connecting one network to another.

    Another Adam

  7. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Another Adam wrote:
    > The First Adam wrote:
    >> Adam wrote:
    >>> Another Adam wrote:

    >>
    >> Jeez, how many Adams *are* there in here?

    >
    > I think the number's going to increase. The name got more popular in
    > the 1970s. I'm from the end of the baby boom, and in my whole life I've
    > only met two or three Adams who were around my age, and never met one
    > who was older. ("Adam West" is the stage name of William West Anderson,
    > born 1928.) If you hear of someone named Adam, chances are good that
    > he's mid-thirties or younger.


    Amen.


    --
    The Last Adam

  8. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    , Another Adam wrote:

    >That's why my system's partitioned to allow more than one distro. I
    >get the impression that a lot of Linux users have at least one
    >"experimental" distro installed, in addition to the one used for
    >everyday work.


    It's certainly not an uncommon situation, but it really does depend on
    what the user is doing. All of my systems at home are "working" systems,
    meaning I do little to no experimenting on them. I have been using the
    same install we use at work, both for a common standard, and the fact
    that it simplifies support issues. When it is time to upgrade to a new
    distribution, we've been running it on test boxes in the lab for at
    least eight weeks searching for problems before it gets unleashed onto
    the poor users.

    >Okay, maybe it's the same program, but Usenet involves all sorts of new
    >commands and rules. It's sort of like a corner of the web that most
    >people don't know about, and some of the few who do are put off by
    >having to learn all sorts of new things to access it. (Yes, I know that
    >Usenet is not part of the Web!)


    The limited experience I have using browsers as a news tool would agree
    to some extent, but it's no where near like learning a completely new
    application.

    >I was thinking more of sites like
    >http://www.hostingforum.ca/mandrake.html where you will find this very
    >thread displayed as if we were members of a web-based board.


    which is why my replies have that "On $DATE, in the Usenet newsgroup
    $NEWSGROUP, in article $ARTICLE_NUMBER, $NAME wrote:" line at the top.
    Some Usenet posters have gone so far as to put .sig lines (and sometimes
    an extra header) prohibiting including their posts in ripe-off web based
    discussion forums. I know a couple of individuals who included copyright
    notices, and threatened legal action against at least a couple of forums
    for violating it. Haven't seen anything like that recently.

    >I'm switching ISPs, and I don't recall my new ISP mentioning anything at
    >all about Usenet newsgroups in their advertising. (My old ISP did
    >mention "over 40,000 newsgroups" in their ads.) It turns out that my
    >new ISP has about 30,000 newsgroups


    Given that there are only ~2300 groups in the Big Eight list, I don't
    suppose that 30 or 40K shouldn't be enough. though I thought that
    Supernews was carrying more than that.

    >but I figured that if it didn't include Usenet, I could find a decent
    >newsserver for a low price.


    There's a newsgroup 'alt.free.newsservers' you could check. A problem
    I've seen with them is that they tend to be abused by trolls and other
    clueless fools, and some wind up on killfiles..

    >I'm surprised to see SDSU in there.


    Universities are still a major player in news distributions, and I've
    seen dozens of US universities in the bang path. Our feed at work comes
    from a Pac-ten school.

    >I think I'm now posting from trndny09, or maybe gnilink.net.


    Looks like gnilink.net to me.

    >The "Path:" header reminds me of my college days, when we had to
    >explicitly route email through the gateways connecting one network to
    >another.


    Don't forget that news was originally distributed using UUCP, and that
    demanded a bang path environment. Actually if you look for the Usenet
    Recipe Book (ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/usenet-recipes) you'll
    see many of the recipes are signed by people using the old style
    addresses

    Old guy

  9. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    > , Another Adam wrote:
    >> I was thinking more of sites like
    >> http://www.hostingforum.ca/mandrake.html where you will find this very
    >> thread displayed as if we were members of a web-based board.

    >
    > which is why my replies have that "On $DATE, in the Usenet newsgroup
    > $NEWSGROUP, in article $ARTICLE_NUMBER, $NAME wrote:" line at the top.
    > Some Usenet posters have gone so far as to put .sig lines (and sometimes
    > an extra header) prohibiting including their posts in rip-off web based
    > discussion forums. I know a couple of individuals who included copyright
    > notices, and threatened legal action against at least a couple of forums
    > for violating it. Haven't seen anything like that recently.


    I was wondering about that. I imagine that posting to my newsserver
    implies permission for it to be copied to other newsservers, but putting
    it in a message board sounds a bit much. I know that if someone
    published a collection of my posts, or even one of my posts, without my
    permission, I could sue. OTOH I suppose with Linux and the FSF and OSS
    and so on, getting the information out there is the most important thing.

    >> I'm switching ISPs, and I don't recall my new ISP mentioning anything at
    >> all about Usenet newsgroups in their advertising. (My old ISP did
    >> mention "over 40,000 newsgroups" in their ads.) It turns out that my
    >> new ISP has about 30,000 newsgroups

    >
    > Given that there are only ~2300 groups in the Big Eight list, I don't
    > suppose that 30 or 40K shouldn't be enough. though I thought that
    > Supernews was carrying more than that.


    Maybe it does with an individual subscription to Supernews... maybe ISPs
    have a choice of plans with varying numbers of NGs. So far I've only
    noticed one NG that my old ISP carried that my new one doesn't, and it
    was one I'd unsubscribed from anyway.

    To my slight surprise, my new ISP, which is Verizon DSL (no complaints
    so far), carries 19 NGs starting with "0.verizon", presumably so they'll
    be at the top of the list. One of them is 0.verizon.linux which Verizon
    does NOT participate in, but at least they acknowledge its existence.
    It seems to deal with all sorts of Linux questions, not just ones
    relating to connectivity. Another one is 0.verizon.newsgroup.requests.

    >> but I figured that if it didn't include Usenet, I could find a decent
    >> newsserver for a low price.

    >
    > There's a newsgroup 'alt.free.newsservers' you could check. A problem
    > I've seen with them is that they tend to be abused by trolls and other
    > clueless fools, and some wind up on killfiles.


    Yes, I've heard that the free ones have limitations or other
    disadvantages. I figured I'd be better off paying a small fee for a
    decent one. I even checked out Supernews's prices, because they've done
    a good job as a newsserver for my old ISP, and they start at $4/month.
    See https://www.supernews.com/signup/ if you're curious.

    > Looks like gnilink.net to me.


    I'll look into that, out of curiosity.

    > Don't forget that news was originally distributed using UUCP, and that
    > demanded a bang path environment.


    I tend to associate bang paths with BBSs, as all my student accounts
    have been .bitnet or .edu. I wish I'd kept my ca. 1985 network
    addressing handbook, written by the college sysadmin, which covered
    naming, network paths, and gateways. I do remember in 1986, sending
    email from my college account to a friend at RPI, and getting it bounced
    back with the explanation "Students are not allowed to receive network
    messages."

    Another Adam

  10. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    On Thu, 14 Jun 2007in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    , Another Adam wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >I was wondering about that. I imagine that posting to my newsserver
    >implies permission for it to be copied to other newsservers, but
    >putting it in a message board sounds a bit much.


    It's an extremely muddy situation. Your posting is probably on several
    hundred news servers around the world - did you give them permission to
    distribute it? ;-)

    >I know that if someone published a collection of my posts, or even one
    >of my posts, without my permission, I could sue.


    Well, then you get into the fun and games called jurisdictions. You
    could file suit in the U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York
    but would that really impress someone in East Spamistan? More
    importantly, would it have the slightest effect on them? Would it be
    worth the expenses you'd have doing so? It's bad enough getting a
    judgment against someone in a different state thanks to differing
    laws in the various jurisdictions, but it's substantially more
    difficult in another county even assuming reciprocal agreements.

    >OTOH I suppose with Linux and the FSF and OSS and so on, getting the
    >information out there is the most important thing.


    Laws still apply, and copyright is one of the more universal laws
    around the world. In some countries you don't have to declare that
    material is copyrighted - while others may make it easier to effect
    legal action if a claim to such rights are part of the document in
    question. Look at the HOWTOs. or one of the "COPYING" files you are
    likely to have squirreled away on your system:

    [compton ~]$ locate COPYING | wc -l
    149
    [compton ~]$

    >> I thought that Supernews was carrying more than [30-40k newsgroups]


    >Maybe it does with an individual subscription to Supernews... maybe
    >ISPs have a choice of plans with varying numbers of NGs. So far I've
    >only noticed one NG that my old ISP carried that my new one doesn't,
    >and it was one I'd unsubscribed from anyway.


    I've always accessed Supernews as part of some ISPs package of services
    and the last time I looked at their .newsrc file, it was 33k of groups.

    >To my slight surprise, my new ISP, which is Verizon DSL (no complaints
    >so far)


    You might have mail problems - they often do a Sender Verification (try
    to connect to the sending mail server and _open_ an SMTP dialog to see
    if the envelope sender is a valid username) which most people consider
    to be abuse, and that has Verizon on some block lists. Their mail
    servers are also using some form of block list such that they refuse
    connections to some (quite large) ISPs - t-online.net (Deutsche Telekom
    AG) being one. Google for Verizon in the Usenet newsgroup
    news.admin.net-abuse.blocklisting.

    >carries 19 NGs starting with "0.verizon", presumably so they'll be at
    >the top of the list.


    I've not looked at the reason, but the newsgroup list from giganews
    starts with 157 groups that begin with 'alt.test*', then five classic
    "important" groups (news.announce.newusers, news.answers,
    news.groups.questions, news.newusers.questions, news.software.readers)
    before starting with "0.akita-inu" and "0.alaskan-malamute" and so on.
    In a rather stupid default, those 157 test groups and five "news.*"
    show up as if you had subscribed to them. (One or two test groups I
    could agree with, but 157???). Oh, and I only see 9 of the 0.verizon.*
    groups here ;-)

    >One of them is 0.verizon.linux which Verizon does NOT participate in,
    >but at least they acknowledge its existence. It seems to deal with all
    >sorts of Linux questions, not just ones relating to connectivity.


    I've seen a number of providers that have at least some information
    about how to connect a *nix box. One of the earliest I recall was a
    fairly extensive page from Worldnet.att (att.net) back in 1995. If
    you were lucky, the helldesk klown remembered the URL, but that was
    the total extent of their support of Linux (and in reality the page
    had been created by one of their users). Support is generally limited
    to a droid reading from a script (customer says "this", corrective
    action is to do "that") and possibly punishing the staff that go
    beyond what's in the scripts. This is reasonable given the positively
    miniscule technical knowledge the front line staff is expected to have.
    I occasionally run into this problem with one of the ISPs I have (I
    love to hear their branes hit the floor when I answer their "when did
    you last reboot?" question with "lessee, 'uptime' says the system has
    been up for 140 days six hours and seventeen minutes, but what has
    that got to do with the fact that your perimeter router is dropping
    half the traffic").

    >Yes, I've heard that the free ones have limitations or other
    >disadvantages. I figured I'd be better off paying a small fee for a
    >decent one. I even checked out Supernews's prices, because they've done
    >a good job as a newsserver for my old ISP, and they start at $4/month.


    Supernews has a _very_ good reputation for keeping their spool clean.
    Only reason I'm not using them is that my primary ISP provides a
    different server.

    >I tend to associate bang paths with BBSs, as all my student accounts
    >have been .bitnet or .edu. I wish I'd kept my ca. 1985 network
    >addressing handbook, written by the college sysadmin, which covered
    >naming, network paths, and gateways.


    I long since lost my copies, and can barely remember who our peers were.

    >I do remember in 1986, sending email from my college account to a friend
    >at RPI, and getting it bounced back with the explanation "Students are
    >not allowed to receive network messages."


    At RPI? ARIN says they didn't get their /16 until 2/27/86, but I've
    got notes and an RFC that says it was mid 1985. Somewhat surprised
    about the prohibition, as I know some who were students at several
    West Coast universities, as well as Cornell and MIT back then and
    had no difficulty sending/receiving mail.

    Old guy

  11. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    On Sun, 17 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    , Adam wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >>> Verizon DSL

    >>
    >> You might have mail problems


    >Okay, I looked, and it does indeed seem that Verizon doesn't have the
    >best reputation, but it seems they're improving. However, I looked at
    >one site (dslreports?) that had reviews of DSL providers, and BestWeb's
    >DSL got only extreme reviews -- either five stars or no stars.


    You're looking at it from a completely different perspective. I'm
    referring to how other ISPs on the Internet feel about them, not how
    their customers feel.

    >BestWeb's dialup service (they are a local ISP) has gone downhill since
    >I started with them in 1999. Recently there have been mornings where
    >I'd spend literally half an hour redialing just to get any kind of
    >connection, and have to give up. On better days, it would take several
    >attempts to get a "fast" dialup connection, "fast" meaning > 33.6 kbps.
    > And many days, my connection would get dropped at random intervals.
    >We discussed this one for a long time in a.o.l.mandriva.


    I thought that replacing the phone cable fixed this. Oh, well.

    >My guess is that they put the 'test' groups first so that people who
    >don't know what they're doing will wind up there instead of disrupting a
    >"real" newsgroup, and they put those 'news.*' next because they felt
    >they were important. Just my guess, but it makes sense to me, kind of.


    Well, yes but...

    >> In a rather stupid default, those 157 test groups and five "news.*"
    >> show up as if you had subscribed to them.

    >
    >What?! Well, that's bound to scare some people away from Usenet, which
    >could be either a good or a bad thing, depending.


    Like I said - two or three would be OK, but 157??? For most people,
    that is like five or six screens full of names. Definitely a bad idea.

    >> Oh, and I only see 9 of the 0.verizon.* groups here ;-)


    [snip list of 0.verizon.*]

    [compton ~]$ grep 0.verizon ../newsrc | column
    0.verizon.adsl 0.verizon.newsgroup.requests
    0.verizon.discussion-general 0.verizon.security
    0.verizon.email.spam 0.verizon.test
    0.verizon.flame 0.verizon.windowsxp
    0.verizon.linux
    [compton ~]$

    >I'm unofficial "tech support" for my parents, so I need some version of
    >Windows installed. I figure if anyone at a help desk asks what OS, or
    >what version of Windows, I'm running, I can give them one of the answers
    >they can handle.


    I don't bother calling them when the problem might be on my end. In most
    cases, it only takes a minute or so to isolate that out - so when I _do_
    call them, I know the problem is on their side, and can provide enough
    details in the initial statement for them to grok the problem. (I don't
    say "hello, the internet is down").

    >> Somewhat surprised about the prohibition, as I know some who were
    >> students at several West Coast universities, as well as Cornell and
    >> MIT back then and had no difficulty sending/receiving mail.

    >
    >Obviously my college let us send network mail. They just asked us to
    >be nice about it. In '89 I tried emailing the same friend still at
    >RPI, and by then he was allowed to receive network mail.


    In the 1980s, the schools had the ultimate disciplinary action. If you
    screwed up, you lost access. and that probably meant flunking the course
    as a minimum. Now they don't have that clout, because everyone has a
    computer and Internet access elsewhere.

    Old guy

  12. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Moe Trin wrote:
    >> it does indeed seem that Verizon doesn't have the
    >> best reputation, but it seems they're improving.

    >
    > You're looking at it from a completely different perspective. I'm
    > referring to how other ISPs on the Internet feel about them, not how
    > their customers feel.


    Oh, okay. Like how I (used to) look down on anything posted from an AOL
    account. I see how some other ISPs don't like Verizon, but pretty much
    put up with it because VZ has so many customers. Is there any sort of
    reputation that goes with being a Verizon customer?

    >> BestWeb's dialup service (they are a local ISP) has gone downhill since
    >> I started with them in 1999. [etc]

    >
    > I thought that replacing the phone cable fixed this. Oh, well.


    No, I just replaced the phone cable a few days ago. Today I tried
    accessing them via dialup. I had no problem getting a connection at a
    fast ( > 45 kbps) speed, but effective throughput was practically zero.
    I wonder if they'll notice that one of their dialup customers is
    accessing their servers at DSL speeds. Btw I am going to keep my dialup
    modem connected, even after my dialup service runs out. As someone
    pointed out, they can be used to send faxes, which a DSL modem can't do.

    > [compton ~]$ grep 0.verizon ../newsrc | column

    [snip]

    I wasn't aware that ANY of 0.verizon.* could be accessed through anyone
    else's server.

    [ISP help desk]
    > I don't bother calling them when the problem might be on my end.


    Yes, I've picked up on the Linux attitude of "try to do it yourself, if
    at all possible."

    Adam

  13. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Adam wrote:
    > Moe Trin wrote:
    >>> it does indeed seem that Verizon doesn't have the
    >>> best reputation, but it seems they're improving.

    >>
    >> You're looking at it from a completely different perspective. I'm
    >> referring to how other ISPs on the Internet feel about them, not how
    >> their customers feel.

    >
    > Oh, okay. Like how I (used to) look down on anything posted from an AOL
    > account.


    Be of good cheer. Now you have Google Groups posters to look down at
    with the dame disdain.

    (And in fact when AOHell dropped Usenet it advised their users to move
    to Google Groups.)

    See my sig (and link) for a personal solution.

    --
    Blinky RLU 297263
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

  14. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >> Oh, okay. Like how I (used to) look down on anything posted from an AOL
    >> account.

    >
    > Be of good cheer. Now you have Google Groups posters to look down at
    > with the dame disdain.


    Plus, of course, as Linux users we can look down on Windows users!

    > (And in fact when AOHell dropped Usenet it advised their users to move
    > to Google Groups.)


    I must have missed the news about AOL dropping Usenet. I did wonder why
    there didn't seem to be any posts from AOL addresses any more!

    Adam

  15. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Adam wrote:
    > Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >>> Oh, okay. Like how I (used to) look down on anything posted from an AOL
    >>> account.

    >>
    >> Be of good cheer. Now you have Google Groups posters to look down at
    >> with the dame disdain.

    >
    > Plus, of course, as Linux users we can look down on Windows users!


    Do you know about The Last Man Theory? Somewhere in the whole chain of
    looking down at (pointing at and laughing; whatever) is one guy that
    there's nobody lower than. There's nobody in any worse shape than he
    is. He has nobody to point at and laugh, nobody to hold in disdain.
    He's The Last Man. Aren't you glad you're not him?

    >> (And in fact when AOHell dropped Usenet it advised their users to move
    >> to Google Groups.)

    >
    > I must have missed the news about AOL dropping Usenet. I did wonder why
    > there didn't seem to be any posts from AOL addresses any more!


    That was...oh, two or three years ago. Probably more like three.


    --
    Blinky RLU 297263
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

  16. Re: [OT] Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Blinky the Shark wrote:
    > Do you know about The Last Man Theory? Somewhere in the whole chain of
    > looking down at (pointing at and laughing; whatever) is one guy that
    > there's nobody lower than. There's nobody in any worse shape than he
    > is. He has nobody to point at and laugh, nobody to hold in disdain.
    > He's The Last Man. Aren't you glad you're not him?


    By coincidence, yesterday I was reading about Sammy Davis Jr. He once
    said, "You got it easy. I'm a short, ugly, one-eyed, black Jew. What do
    you think it's like for me?" Is that a Last Man? :-)

    BTW a good source of people to look down on is
    http://rinkworks.com/stupid/ .

    Adam

  17. Re: [OT] Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Adam wrote:
    > Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >> Do you know about The Last Man Theory? Somewhere in the whole chain of
    >> looking down at (pointing at and laughing; whatever) is one guy that
    >> there's nobody lower than. There's nobody in any worse shape than he
    >> is. He has nobody to point at and laugh, nobody to hold in disdain.
    >> He's The Last Man. Aren't you glad you're not him?

    >
    > By coincidence, yesterday I was reading about Sammy Davis Jr. He once
    > said, "You got it easy. I'm a short, ugly, one-eyed, black Jew. What do
    > you think it's like for me?" Is that a Last Man? :-)


    Nope. He was rich.

    > BTW a good source of people to look down on is
    > http://rinkworks.com/stupid/ .




    Heh. Thanks.

    My own modest collection in a particular niche:

    http://blinkynet.net/comp/dontask.html

    Of course I miss a lot of those because I filter Google Gropers.


    --
    Blinky RLU 297263
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

  18. Re: Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.os.linux.mandrake, in article
    , Adam wrote:

    >Moe Trin wrote:


    >> You're looking at it from a completely different perspective. I'm
    >> referring to how other ISPs on the Internet feel about them, not how
    >> their customers feel.

    >
    >Oh, okay. Like how I (used to) look down on anything posted from an
    >AOL account.


    From rec.arts.sf.written, in a thread entitled "What is AOL?"
    > An organization set up to give Internetters someone to make ethnic
    > jokes about.

    -- (repeated in rec.humor.funny, rec.humor.funny.reruns)

    In the nineties, it seemed that half if my nephews were using AOL as
    their "ISP" in spite of my scathing comments. They've since moved on
    to other providers, but retain the habit of hitting the "forward this
    to every person I've ever received mail from" button (I dunno, it
    might be a default in their browser) and never think about trimming
    the garbage off. I finally fixed the problem by using dynamic email
    usernames that expire every Sunday (can you say "cron-job"? I thought
    you could).

    >I see how some other ISPs don't like Verizon, but pretty much put up
    >with it because VZ has so many customers. Is there any sort of
    >reputation that goes with being a Verizon customer?


    I don't _know_ of any problems with the customers - I think the anger
    is directed at Verizon itself.

    >> I thought that replacing the phone cable fixed this. Oh, well.

    >
    >No, I just replaced the phone cable a few days ago. Today I tried
    >accessing them via dialup. I had no problem getting a connection at a
    >fast ( > 45 kbps) speed, but effective throughput was practically zero.


    I take it you are giving up on dialin. Were I to look further at this
    problem, I'd be looking at a tcpdump output to see WTF.

    >I wonder if they'll notice that one of their dialup customers is
    >accessing their servers at DSL speeds.


    Highly unlikely that they'd notice the speed, but they certainly should
    notice the "remote" IP address.

    >Btw I am going to keep my dialup modem connected, even after my dialup
    >service runs out. As someone pointed out, they can be used to send
    >faxes, which a DSL modem can't do.


    I have dialup as a backup, and to access two other ISPs. Sending Faxes?
    I wasn't aware of any problem, but on the rare occasion when I do need
    to send a fax, I'll dig our the fax that's in the garage and connect it
    to the (analog) phone line.

    >I wasn't aware that ANY of 0.verizon.* could be accessed through anyone
    >else's server.


    Some commercial news server like to advertise having more groups than
    anyone else as a gimmick to get customers. giganews is one of those,
    which is why they have over 107000 newsgroups. Looking for Polish
    language groups? They have 300 pl.* as well as 697 Italian (it.*),
    450 French (fr.*), and so on.

    >[ISP help desk]
    >> I don't bother calling them when the problem might be on my end.

    >
    >Yes, I've picked up on the Linux attitude of "try to do it yourself,
    >if at all possible."


    Main reason I don't bother is that I already know that the helldesk
    staff can't even _spell_ Linux, never mind having the faintest clue
    how it operates. (Actually, I'm not to sure they have a good idea
    how windoze operates either.)

    Old guy

  19. Re: [OT] Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Blinky the Shark wrote:
    > My own modest collection in a particular niche:
    >
    > http://blinkynet.net/comp/dontask.html
    >
    > Of course I miss a lot of those because I filter Google Gropers.


    Cute! I considered creating my own web page, but couldn't think of
    anything to put on it. I finally came up with the idea that a web page
    consisting of the most useful links that I've found over the years could
    actually be a positive contribution to the Web. One more thing on my
    "computer projects to do" list, and pretty far down at that.

    Adam

  20. Re: [OT] Statistics for alt.os.linux.mandrake

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > In the nineties, it seemed that half if my nephews were using AOL as
    > their "ISP" in spite of my scathing comments.


    I think of AOL as a sort of 'net with training wheels. OTOH just for
    fun I got their "You've Got Mail!" wav from one of their free CDs, and
    use that as my new mail announcement. Come to think of it, it's been a
    while since I've seen any free AOL CDs.

    > I take it you are giving up on dialin.


    Yes. For reasons having nothing to do with computers, in the near
    future I'll need to be available 24/7 for a VERY important phone call,
    one that I /want/ to get, so I can't have dialup tying up my phone line,
    and I live in a cell phone dead zone. (Is it possible to be in a dead
    zone for one cell provider, yet be accessible to another provider?)
    With the problems I've been having with dialup, I figured this was as
    good a time as any to switch to broadband. Of course I'll also have to
    get Call Waiting on my POTS line.

    [My old dialup IP]
    >> I wonder if they'll notice that one of their dialup customers is
    >> accessing their servers at DSL speeds.

    >
    > Highly unlikely that they'd notice the speed, but they certainly should
    > notice the "remote" IP address.


    Hmmm. If they *do* notice it, is there anything they can do about it?
    My dialup service is paid for through August 28th.

    >> Btw I am going to keep my dialup modem connected [...] they can be
    >> used to send faxes, which a DSL modem can't do.

    >
    > I have dialup as a backup, and to access two other ISPs. Sending Faxes?
    > I wasn't aware of any problem, but on the rare occasion when I do need
    > to send a fax, I'll dig our the fax that's in the garage and connect it
    > to the (analog) phone line.


    I don't think that my DSL provider includes dialup as a backup. And I
    haven't yet needed to send a fax, but just in case...

    > Some commercial news server like to advertise having more groups than
    > anyone else as a gimmick to get customers. giganews is one of those,
    > which is why they have over 107000 newsgroups. Looking for Polish
    > language groups? They have 300 pl.* as well as 697 Italian (it.*),
    > 450 French (fr.*), and so on.


    I think I could get along happily with only a few hundred newsgroups, as
    long as they were my choice of newsgroups! Btw
    http://www.nyx.net/~bkraft/ lists a lot of specialized news servers
    accessible to the public. Most are from companies and deal specifically
    with their products. If sheer number of newsgroups matters, I suppose
    those could be added.

    Adam, who's given up on posting as Another Adam

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