Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded) - Linux

This is a discussion on Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded) - Linux ; On a sunny day (Mon, 25 Dec 2006 22:42:32 -0500) it happened Yousuf Khan wrote in : >The full text is available at the following site (it's kinda long, but >interesting): > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt Thank you, that was informative. We will ...

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Thread: Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

  1. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    On a sunny day (Mon, 25 Dec 2006 22:42:32 -0500) it happened Yousuf Khan
    wrote in
    :

    >The full text is available at the following site (it's kinda long, but
    >interesting):
    > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt


    Thank you, that was informative.
    We will find a way around it and bury Balmer's company in the process.

    Happy New Year :-)

    I will post you link to comp.os.linux.development.apps and sci.electronics.design.


  2. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    >>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
    >>

    It has been a topic twice (dupe) on /.
    I found this comment especially apt:
    http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?si...ested#17362176

    >We will find a way around it and bury Balmer's company in the process.
    >

    Let's see if folks react to the
    massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.


  3. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    "JeffM" wrote in message
    news:1167154009.714993.315660@h40g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
    > Let's see if folks react to the
    > massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    > the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    > and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.


    The big difference is that DIVX was clearly marketed as a "use it for 48
    hours... pay more if you then want to keep if from self-destructing" whereas
    with Vista there's no self-destruction: There's just degradation of the output
    down to a "standard definition" display/audio output.

    It's still pretty rotten, though. Although you'd expect there will be various
    hacks/patches to work around the DRM nonsense, they aren't going to be
    commonly applied given that here in the U.S. the technology required to do so
    would undoubtedly be considered illegal per the DMCA.

    I like Windows, but Microsoft is giving people more and more reasons every day
    to move to Linux.



  4. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)


    Joel Kolstad wrote:
    > "JeffM" wrote in message
    > news:1167154009.714993.315660@h40g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
    > > Let's see if folks react to the
    > > massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    > > the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    > > and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.

    >
    > The big difference is that DIVX was clearly marketed as a "use it for 48
    > hours... pay more if you then want to keep if from self-destructing" whereas
    > with Vista there's no self-destruction: There's just degradation of the output
    > down to a "standard definition" display/audio output.
    >
    > It's still pretty rotten, though. Although you'd expect there will be various
    > hacks/patches to work around the DRM nonsense, they aren't going to be
    > commonly applied given that here in the U.S. the technology required to do so
    > would undoubtedly be considered illegal per the DMCA.
    >
    > I like Windows, but Microsoft is giving people more and more reasons every day
    > to move to Linux.




    Looks like older video card hardware, etc. will be more and more
    valuable on eBay as time goes on, too... especially if all newer video
    hardware implement this DRM stuff.

    Michael


  5. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    On a sunny day (26 Dec 2006 09:26:49 -0800) it happened "JeffM"
    wrote in
    <1167154009.714993.315660@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>:

    >Jan Panteltje wrote:
    >>>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
    >>>

    >It has been a topic twice (dupe) on /.
    >I found this comment especially apt:
    >http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?si...ested#17362176
    >
    >>We will find a way around it and bury Balmer's company in the process.
    >>

    >Let's see if folks react to the
    >massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    >the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    >and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.


    I want to get a Sony PS3 :-)
    It has a blue ray player, HDMI out, supports HDCP, and can run Linux.
    Sure you do not need Vista, but if they f*ck up all hardware to
    make it 'Vista compatible' then there may be a cost problem.
    Somebody will then jump in and make non-Vista mobos and stuff.
    many people want just speed!
    (be it for crypt, or rendering, or games, or data processing, or whatever).
    Maybe my current vista-free box will do 50000 Euro one day on the black market...
    LOL

  6. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    On Dec 26, 1:48 pm, "Joel Kolstad"
    wrote:
    > "JeffM" wrote in messagenews:1167154009.714993.315660@h40g2000cwb.g ooglegroups.com...
    >
    > > Let's see if folks react to the
    > > massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    > > the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    > > and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.The big difference is that DIVX was clearly marketed as a "use it for 48

    > hours... pay more if you then want to keep if from self-destructing" whereas
    > with Vista there's no self-destruction: There's just degradation of the output
    > down to a "standard definition" display/audio output.
    >
    > It's still pretty rotten, though. Although you'd expect there will be various
    > hacks/patches to work around the DRM nonsense, they aren't going to be
    > commonly applied given that here in the U.S. the technology required to do so
    > would undoubtedly be considered illegal per the DMCA.
    >


    I think you're confusing the old Divx discs with the newer Divx video
    codec standard. I don't think they are in any way related to each
    other.

    Yousuf Khan


  7. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    > I want to get a Sony PS3 :-)
    > It has a blue ray player, HDMI out, supports HDCP, and can run Linux.


    It does seem to be a terrific piece of hardware indeed - I would like
    to
    port my DPS on it...
    However, things may be not much better than with the to be expected
    Vista "compatible" hardware... Linux runs in a "guest" mode, the
    details
    of the peripheral chips to the Cell CPU are secret; that is, you can
    play linux-like or whatever on top of something which will allow
    you do that and disallow you this. Unless that companion chip
    (Toshiba made) gets publically specified, the PS3 will be yet another
    Vista-like thing - unfortunately...

    Dimiter

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

    http://www.tgi-sci.com
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    > On a sunny day (26 Dec 2006 09:26:49 -0800) it happened "JeffM"
    > wrote in
    > <1167154009.714993.315660@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>:
    >
    > >Jan Panteltje wrote:
    > >>>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
    > >>>

    > >It has been a topic twice (dupe) on /.
    > >I found this comment especially apt:
    > >http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?si...ested#17362176
    > >
    > >>We will find a way around it and bury Balmer's company in the process.
    > >>

    > >Let's see if folks react to the
    > >massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    > >the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    > >and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.

    >
    > I want to get a Sony PS3 :-)
    > It has a blue ray player, HDMI out, supports HDCP, and can run Linux.
    > Sure you do not need Vista, but if they f*ck up all hardware to
    > make it 'Vista compatible' then there may be a cost problem.
    > Somebody will then jump in and make non-Vista mobos and stuff.
    > many people want just speed!
    > (be it for crypt, or rendering, or games, or data processing, or whatever).
    > Maybe my current vista-free box will do 50000 Euro one day on the black market...
    > LOL



  8. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    On a sunny day (27 Dec 2006 03:55:28 -0800) it happened "Didi"
    wrote in
    <1167220528.109990.252510@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:

    >> I want to get a Sony PS3 :-)
    >> It has a blue ray player, HDMI out, supports HDCP, and can run Linux.

    >
    >It does seem to be a terrific piece of hardware indeed - I would like
    >to
    >port my DPS on it...
    > However, things may be not much better than with the to be expected
    >Vista "compatible" hardware... Linux runs in a "guest" mode, the
    >details
    >of the peripheral chips to the Cell CPU are secret; that is, you can
    >play linux-like or whatever on top of something which will allow
    >you do that and disallow you this. Unless that companion chip
    >(Toshiba made) gets publically specified, the PS3 will be yet another
    >Vista-like thing - unfortunately...
    >
    >Dimiter


    Yes, this is a difficult issue.
    If I am completely honest to myself then I know I am not 100% sure
    I will be able to crack this.
    For me it is not to violate copyright but to play with Cell.
    The price 499 Euro (I think) is rather high too.
    I was hoping to do some H264 decoding in a peripheral processor.
    Because PS3 is networked, I could run it as simple server too.

    A Blu-Ray DVD burner still costs 750 Euro now, maybe less in March when we
    can buy PS3 here (or later even??).
    This is what one should upgrade to anyways IMO, but prices will drop.
    If Cell or PS3 is too limited, then it is perhaps best to ignore them, and
    go for a normal PC with Blu-ray writer, but then a HDMI output graphics card.
    It is hard to beat the Sony price.
    Anyways the Sony PS3 hypervisor cannot be _that_ impossible to get rid of.
    If not possible then you still have a nice server, movie player, and game
    machine :-)


  9. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    On 26 Dec 2006 10:58:14 -0800, mrdarrett@gmail.com Gave us:

    >
    >Joel Kolstad wrote:
    >> "JeffM" wrote in message
    >> news:1167154009.714993.315660@h40g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
    >> > Let's see if folks react to the
    >> > massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    >> > the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    >> > and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.

    >>
    >> The big difference is that DIVX was clearly marketed as a "use it for 48
    >> hours... pay more if you then want to keep if from self-destructing" whereas
    >> with Vista there's no self-destruction: There's just degradation of the output
    >> down to a "standard definition" display/audio output.
    >>
    >> It's still pretty rotten, though. Although you'd expect there will be various
    >> hacks/patches to work around the DRM nonsense, they aren't going to be
    >> commonly applied given that here in the U.S. the technology required to do so
    >> would undoubtedly be considered illegal per the DMCA.
    >>
    >> I like Windows, but Microsoft is giving people more and more reasons every day
    >> to move to Linux.

    >
    >
    >
    >Looks like older video card hardware, etc. will be more and more
    >valuable on eBay as time goes on, too... especially if all newer video
    >hardware implement this DRM stuff.
    >
    >Michael


    Content protection is in your future. Get used to it. Get ready
    for it. Get over it. You will likely never succeed in getting it
    gone, however. DRM may be the wrong direction for content protection,
    but some schema will end up in play regardless of what you think.

    The Toshiba HD DVD player is a fine example of a piece of hardware
    that can mutate certain processing routines to match changing
    standards, and codec changes, etc.

  10. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:03:35 GMT, Jan Panteltje
    Gave us:

    >On a sunny day (26 Dec 2006 09:26:49 -0800) it happened "JeffM"
    > wrote in
    ><1167154009.714993.315660@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>:
    >
    >>Jan Panteltje wrote:
    >>>>http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...vista_cost.txt
    >>>>

    >>It has been a topic twice (dupe) on /.
    >>I found this comment especially apt:
    >>http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?si...ested#17362176
    >>
    >>>We will find a way around it and bury Balmer's company in the process.
    >>>

    >>Let's see if folks react to the
    >>massively DRM-encumbered HD-DVD / Blu-Ray paradigm
    >>the way they did to (Circuit City's) DivX (completely ignored it)
    >>and in so doing find that they don't need M$ Vista.

    >
    >I want to get a Sony PS3 :-)
    >It has a blue ray player, HDMI out, supports HDCP, and can run Linux.


    And has **** for audio. Half of the entire reason for high def
    content is high quality playback.

    >Sure you do not need Vista, but if they f*ck up all hardware to
    >make it 'Vista compatible' then there may be a cost problem.


    That's silly. Back when 9 pin serial was the interface, that's what
    got used. When it became USB, that's what got used. It has nothing
    to do with the OS or software that commands it.

    >Somebody will then jump in and make non-Vista mobos and stuff.
    >many people want just speed!


    CPU, computer and hardware makers want speed, and have no concern
    for the "target OS". Ther is not target OS. If there becomes one, it
    could actually slow hardware advancement down.

    >(be it for crypt, or rendering, or games, or data processing, or whatever).
    >Maybe my current vista-free box will do 50000 Euro one day on the black market...
    >LOL


    Right. My Alphas have a better chance.

  11. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    JoeBloe writes:

    [...]

    > Content protection is in your future. Get used to it. Get ready
    > for it. Get over it.


    Considering that a lot of 'personal computers' are only or mainly used
    for illegal copying of so-called 'content', some doubts if 'personal
    computers' that prevent this will be big sellers seem appropriate. And
    there is, of course, the issue that people will find ways to turn
    'protected content' into 'unprotected content' very fast, as they
    always have. Presently, this is a specification with some (largely
    untested) software support. It's practical consequence remain to be
    determined.


  12. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    > Anyways the Sony PS3 hypervisor cannot be _that_ impossible to get rid of.

    Wthout having read the details on the Cell PPC implementation I would
    suspect this "hypervisor" mode is just some Sony kernel or something,
    I cannot imagine they have hoped to not allow anyone to run code in PPC
    supervisor mode (?).

    Quite certainly it is possible, the question is is it really viable, I
    don't
    feel like spending half a year to uncover all the registers and stuff
    one would need to access the disks, Ethernet and USB. If they really
    want
    to massively sell the hardware, they'll publish the documentation.
    If they view the hardware as just a tool for taking over of whatever,
    they will neither take over nor will they sell that many (which may
    still be a lot, of course). Me, I'll be watching the development and
    get involved if I see a chance to use the thing....

    Dimiter

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

    http://www.tgi-sci.com
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    > On a sunny day (27 Dec 2006 03:55:28 -0800) it happened "Didi"
    > wrote in
    > <1167220528.109990.252510@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.c om>:
    >
    > >> I want to get a Sony PS3 :-)
    > >> It has a blue ray player, HDMI out, supports HDCP, and can run Linux.

    > >
    > >It does seem to be a terrific piece of hardware indeed - I would like
    > >to
    > >port my DPS on it...
    > > However, things may be not much better than with the to be expected
    > >Vista "compatible" hardware... Linux runs in a "guest" mode, the
    > >details
    > >of the peripheral chips to the Cell CPU are secret; that is, you can
    > >play linux-like or whatever on top of something which will allow
    > >you do that and disallow you this. Unless that companion chip
    > >(Toshiba made) gets publically specified, the PS3 will be yet another
    > >Vista-like thing - unfortunately...
    > >
    > >Dimiter

    >
    > Yes, this is a difficult issue.
    > If I am completely honest to myself then I know I am not 100% sure
    > I will be able to crack this.
    > For me it is not to violate copyright but to play with Cell.
    > The price 499 Euro (I think) is rather high too.
    > I was hoping to do some H264 decoding in a peripheral processor.
    > Because PS3 is networked, I could run it as simple server too.
    >
    > A Blu-Ray DVD burner still costs 750 Euro now, maybe less in March when we
    > can buy PS3 here (or later even??).
    > This is what one should upgrade to anyways IMO, but prices will drop.
    > If Cell or PS3 is too limited, then it is perhaps best to ignore them, and
    > go for a normal PC with Blu-ray writer, but then a HDMI output graphics card.
    > It is hard to beat the Sony price.
    > Anyways the Sony PS3 hypervisor cannot be _that_ impossible to get rid of.
    > If not possible then you still have a nice server, movie player, and game
    > machine :-)



  13. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    In article <1167234338.090008.202440@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
    dp@tgi-sci.com says...
    > > Anyways the Sony PS3 hypervisor cannot be _that_ impossible to get rid of.

    >
    > Wthout having read the details on the Cell PPC implementation I would
    > suspect this "hypervisor" mode is just some Sony kernel or something,
    > I cannot imagine they have hoped to not allow anyone to run code in PPC
    > supervisor mode (?).


    The PowerPC/AS Architecture has three modes, Problem, Supervisor,
    and Hypervisor. There are two bits in the MSR that control the
    mode, MSR[PR] and MSR[HV].

    MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    0 0 = Problem state
    0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    1 0 = Supervisor state
    1 1 = Undefined

    > Quite certainly it is possible, the question is is it really viable, I
    > don't
    > feel like spending half a year to uncover all the registers and stuff
    > one would need to access the disks, Ethernet and USB. If they really
    > want
    > to massively sell the hardware, they'll publish the documentation.
    > If they view the hardware as just a tool for taking over of whatever,
    > they will neither take over nor will they sell that many (which may
    > still be a lot, of course). Me, I'll be watching the development and
    > get involved if I see a chance to use the thing....

    --
    Keith

  14. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    "JoeBloe" wrote in message
    news:bb25p2dqe75cvp17tqvqvboop2nikh3dki@4ax.com...
    > Content protection is in your future. Get used to it. Get ready
    > for it. Get over it. You will likely never succeed in getting it
    > gone, however.


    That's a little naive. Historically, things like *libraries* and *VCRs* were
    legally challenged on the grounds that intellectual property rights would be
    subverted, and yet both are quite legal today. Remember that thing called
    "fair use?" Hence, I think there's a swinging pendulum here -- it wouldn't be
    surprising to see legislation in the new decade or so that does try to clean
    up the morass of IP laws that we have today... and hopefully kills off the
    DMCA in the process.

    > The Toshiba HD DVD player is a fine example of a piece of hardware
    > that can mutate certain processing routines to match changing
    > standards, and codec changes, etc.


    Sure, but keep in mind that business desires often compel companies to release
    new (hardware) products when a software upgrade actually could have given old
    machines the features of new ones. A good example is dual-layer DVD
    recorders: There are many single-layer DVD recorders out there that have the
    hardware capabilites to burn dual-layer discs, but only a very small number of
    manufacturers ever released firmware upgrades to support this.

    ---Joel



  15. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    JoeBloe writes:
    > Content protection is in your future.


    It may be in yours but it isn't in mine. I have never purchased a music
    CD, a movie DVD, or downloaded any commerial music and it is quite possible
    that I never will. The publishers have nothing I want.
    --
    John Hasler
    john@dhh.gt.org
    Dancing Horse Hill
    Elmwood, WI USA

  16. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    > The PowerPC/AS Architecture has three modes, Problem, Supervisor,
    > and Hypervisor. There are two bits in the MSR that control the
    > mode, MSR[PR] and MSR[HV].
    >
    > MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    > 0 0 = Problem state
    > 0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    > 1 0 = Supervisor state
    > 1 1 = Undefined


    Thanks for posting this, I have not had a 64-bit core yet here (I know
    the 603E and I have ported my DPS on it, VM and all).

    This means that on the PS3 the users are supposed to never have real
    access
    to the hardware, and rely on whatever master/spyware has been
    preinstalled
    to run in hypervisor mode. Well, I guess I'll forget about it until
    they publish enough
    details so I can program it... Thanks again for your posting, it saved
    me
    some reading which it would have taken me to find out the PS3 is (for
    now...
    hopefully) a waste of time.

    Dimiter


    krw wrote:
    > In article <1167234338.090008.202440@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
    > dp@tgi-sci.com says...
    > > > Anyways the Sony PS3 hypervisor cannot be _that_ impossible to get rid of.

    > >
    > > Wthout having read the details on the Cell PPC implementation I would
    > > suspect this "hypervisor" mode is just some Sony kernel or something,
    > > I cannot imagine they have hoped to not allow anyone to run code in PPC
    > > supervisor mode (?).

    >
    > The PowerPC/AS Architecture has three modes, Problem, Supervisor,
    > and Hypervisor. There are two bits in the MSR that control the
    > mode, MSR[PR] and MSR[HV].
    >
    > MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    > 0 0 = Problem state
    > 0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    > 1 0 = Supervisor state
    > 1 1 = Undefined
    >
    > > Quite certainly it is possible, the question is is it really viable, I
    > > don't
    > > feel like spending half a year to uncover all the registers and stuff
    > > one would need to access the disks, Ethernet and USB. If they really
    > > want
    > > to massively sell the hardware, they'll publish the documentation.
    > > If they view the hardware as just a tool for taking over of whatever,
    > > they will neither take over nor will they sell that many (which may
    > > still be a lot, of course). Me, I'll be watching the development and
    > > get involved if I see a chance to use the thing....

    > --
    > Keith



  17. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    John Hasler writes:

    > JoeBloe writes:
    >> Content protection is in your future.

    >
    > It may be in yours but it isn't in mine. I have never purchased a music
    > CD, a movie DVD, or downloaded any commerial music and it is quite possible
    > that I never will. The publishers have nothing I want.


    Then you are very special, in a very tiny minority and therefore not in
    much of a position to contribute to a thread about this type of
    protection I would have thought.

  18. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    On a sunny day (Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:25:49 -0500) it happened krw
    wrote in :

    >In article <1167234338.090008.202440@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
    >dp@tgi-sci.com says...
    >> > Anyways the Sony PS3 hypervisor cannot be _that_ impossible to get rid of.

    >>
    >> Wthout having read the details on the Cell PPC implementation I would
    >> suspect this "hypervisor" mode is just some Sony kernel or something,
    >> I cannot imagine they have hoped to not allow anyone to run code in PPC
    >> supervisor mode (?).

    >
    >The PowerPC/AS Architecture has three modes, Problem, Supervisor,
    >and Hypervisor. There are two bits in the MSR that control the
    >mode, MSR[PR] and MSR[HV].
    >
    > MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    > 0 0 = Problem state
    > 0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    > 1 0 = Supervisor state
    > 1 1 = Undefined
    >


    Good, so the thing will likely boot from Flash, now here we hardware guys
    can do some things with perhaps a firmware upgrade, or if that is in ROM
    soldering chips?


  19. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    In article <1167245052.490046.221170@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
    dp@tgi-sci.com says...
    > > The PowerPC/AS Architecture has three modes, Problem, Supervisor,
    > > and Hypervisor. There are two bits in the MSR that control the
    > > mode, MSR[PR] and MSR[HV].
    > >
    > > MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    > > 0 0 = Problem state
    > > 0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    > > 1 0 = Supervisor state
    > > 1 1 = Undefined


    Oops make that (I always get PR upside down):

    > > MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    > > 0 0 = Supervisor State
    > > 0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    > > 1 0 = Problem state
    > > 1 1 = Undefined
    > >


    >
    > Thanks for posting this, I have not had a 64-bit core yet here (I know
    > the 603E and I have ported my DPS on it, VM and all).


    The PPC970 users manual is close, at least for this sort of thing:

    http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib....nsf/techdocs/
    AE818B5D1DBB02EC87256DDE00007821

    > This means that on the PS3 the users are supposed to never have real
    > access
    > to the hardware, and rely on whatever master/spyware has been
    > preinstalled
    > to run in hypervisor mode. Well, I guess I'll forget about it until
    > they publish enough
    > details so I can program it... Thanks again for your posting, it saved
    > me
    > some reading which it would have taken me to find out the PS3 is (for
    > now...
    > hopefully) a waste of time.


    I'mot familiar with what the PS/3 did, just the PPC Architecture.
    The intention of HV mode is to be able to virtualize the OS
    (running in supervisor mode) under a hypervisor. As such, hardware
    mucking is purely an HV=1 operation. The PPC970 based PowerMacs
    had HV hardwired on so there wasn't a hypervisor.

    --
    Keith

  20. Re: Windows Vista content protection: a big long suicide note (forwarded)

    > The PPC970 users manual is close, at least for this sort of thing:
    > ...


    Well I have had it on my disk for some time; and I have downloaded
    the Cell PPC documents as well. However, I never had a reason
    (hardware with such a CPU, that is) to read them.... :-). I do hope
    this will change soon... I want a 64 bit architecture to port to.
    I guess I'll look a bit more into it once the PS3 hits the market
    in Europe.

    Dimiter

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments

    http://www.tgi-sci.com
    ------------------------------------------------------

    krw wrote:
    > In article <1167245052.490046.221170@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
    > dp@tgi-sci.com says...
    > > > The PowerPC/AS Architecture has three modes, Problem, Supervisor,
    > > > and Hypervisor. There are two bits in the MSR that control the
    > > > mode, MSR[PR] and MSR[HV].
    > > >
    > > > MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    > > > 0 0 = Problem state
    > > > 0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    > > > 1 0 = Supervisor state
    > > > 1 1 = Undefined

    >
    > Oops make that (I always get PR upside down):
    >
    > > > MSR[PR] MSR[HV]
    > > > 0 0 = Supervisor State
    > > > 0 1 = Hypervisor mode
    > > > 1 0 = Problem state
    > > > 1 1 = Undefined
    > > >

    >
    > >
    > > Thanks for posting this, I have not had a 64-bit core yet here (I know
    > > the 603E and I have ported my DPS on it, VM and all).

    >
    > The PPC970 users manual is close, at least for this sort of thing:
    >
    > http://www-306.ibm.com/chips/techlib....nsf/techdocs/
    > AE818B5D1DBB02EC87256DDE00007821
    >
    > > This means that on the PS3 the users are supposed to never have real
    > > access
    > > to the hardware, and rely on whatever master/spyware has been
    > > preinstalled
    > > to run in hypervisor mode. Well, I guess I'll forget about it until
    > > they publish enough
    > > details so I can program it... Thanks again for your posting, it saved
    > > me
    > > some reading which it would have taken me to find out the PS3 is (for
    > > now...
    > > hopefully) a waste of time.

    >
    > I'mot familiar with what the PS/3 did, just the PPC Architecture.
    > The intention of HV mode is to be able to virtualize the OS
    > (running in supervisor mode) under a hypervisor. As such, hardware
    > mucking is purely an HV=1 operation. The PPC970 based PowerMacs
    > had HV hardwired on so there wasn't a hypervisor.
    >
    > --
    > Keith



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