Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling) - Linux

This is a discussion on Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling) - Linux ; -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 A computer needs to be as simple to use as an appliance. Whenever you switch it on, it enters a mode of full operation. When you install software on it, everything should be set ...

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Thread: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

  1. Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

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    Hash: SHA1

    A computer needs to be as simple to use as an appliance. Whenever you switch it
    on, it enters a mode of full operation.

    When you install software on it, everything should be set up completely,
    without a hitch.

    Failing to achieve a simple installation, it's clear that something is amiss.

    PCs should be sold separately from software. If the software is trivial to
    install, then it can be offered as an option alongside hardware. It only takes
    minuted to install from a CD-ROM.

    A good set of software can also include customised images and plenty of
    software of interest, such as an office suite.

    Why can't PCs be sold without an operating system? Because, as Microsoft
    wishfully argues, customers would struggle to install the operating system.

    So make it easier.

    Windows will continue to be a hard-to-install mess as long as it provides this
    argument that Joe Sixpack can't have it installed.

    In other words, as long as Windows is bad, it's more likely to be bundled,
    without the offering of choice.

    Apple and its separate universe of 'xenophobic' hardware and software is
    another matter altogether.

    Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or restaurant serve just
    one meal because choice is bad and cooking is too complicated?

    Being a norm does not make anything right or acceptable.
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  2. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)


    Roy Schestowitz writes:

    > A computer needs to be as simple to use as an appliance. Whenever you switch it
    > on, it enters a mode of full operation.


    Whatever that means. Most people dont give a tuppence - they want their
    application SW to work.

    >
    > When you install software on it, everything should be set up completely,
    > without a hitch.
    >
    > Failing to achieve a simple installation, it's clear that something is
    > amiss.


    Err, yeah ...

    >
    > PCs should be sold separately from software. If the software is trivial to
    > install, then it can be offered as an option alongside hardware. It only takes
    > minuted to install from a CD-ROM.


    Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is a job for
    jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC ready out of the box for
    them to install and configure their application SW which offers them
    their market advantage when used properly.

    >
    > A good set of software can also include customised images and plenty of
    > software of interest, such as an office suite.


    Is this you trying to do a "Terry"?

    >
    > Why can't PCs be sold without an operating system? Because, as Microsoft
    > wishfully argues, customers would struggle to install the operating
    > system.


    PCs are sold without OSen. All the time. Try looking. But its all about
    choice. And most people just want a PC with Windows. Sad, but true.

    >
    > So make it easier.
    >
    > Windows will continue to be a hard-to-install mess as long as it provides this
    > argument that Joe Sixpack can't have it installed.


    Huh? What ARE you talking about?!?!?!?!?

    >
    > In other words, as long as Windows is bad, it's more likely to be bundled,
    > without the offering of choice.
    >
    > Apple and its separate universe of 'xenophobic' hardware and software is
    > another matter altogether.


    Yes. It just works and is gaining Market Share at quite a rate. But you
    knew it uses standard Intel too ow didn't you? No? Oh dear me ....

    >
    > Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or restaurant serve just
    > one meal because choice is bad and cooking is too complicated?


    Is that supposed to be an analogy? If so it was incredibly bad.

    New houses DO come with electrictiy and water however ....

    >
    > Being a norm does not make anything right or acceptable.


    You're a pretentious idiot.

  3. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    Hadron wrote:
    > Roy Schestowitz writes:
    >
    >> A computer needs to be as simple to use as an appliance.
    >> Whenever you switch it on, it enters a mode of full
    >> operation.

    >
    > Whatever that means. Most people dont give a tuppence - they
    > want their application SW to work.
    >
    >> When you install software on it, everything should be set up
    >> completely, without a hitch.
    >>
    >> Failing to achieve a simple installation, it's clear that
    >> something is amiss.

    >
    > Err, yeah ...
    >
    >> PCs should be sold separately from software. If the software
    >> is trivial to install, then it can be offered as an option
    >> alongside hardware. It only takes minuted to install from a
    >> CD-ROM.

    >
    > Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is
    > a job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC
    > ready out of the box for them to install and configure their
    > application SW which offers them their market advantage when
    > used properly.


    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...:2814|&Recs=30

    PC's configured with Linux:

    1. Everex CloudBook CE1200V Refurbished Netbook - VIA C7-M ULV
    1.2GHz, 802.11b/g Wireless, 512MB DDR2, 30GB HDD, 7" WVGA,
    Integrated Webcam, gOS V2
    Item #: E80-7001 RB
    Sporting a 7-inch WVGA display, this light as a cloud computer
    weighs a scant 2 pounds, and offers as much as 5 hours of battery
    life.
    $289.99

    2. Sylvania G Netbook - VIA C7-M ULV Processor 1.2GHz, 802.11b/g
    Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 30GB HDD, 7" WVGA, Integrated Webcam, Linux
    Based gOS Operating System
    Item #: D516-7001
    Integrated Webcam, Linux Based gOS Operating System
    At just under two pounds, the netbook by Sylvania brings you
    ultra light portability and wireless Internet connectivity built
    right in.
    $299.96

    3. Acer Aspire One AOA110-1295 Netbook - Intel Atom™ Processor
    N270 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g Wireless, 512MB DDR2, 8GB SSD, 8.9"
    WSVGA, Integrated Webcam, Linpus Linux Lite
    Item #: A180-8001
    Empower yourself with the incredibly light yet remarkably
    productive Acer Aspire One – the new thin & light notebook that
    weighs only 2.19 pounds.
    $349.96

    4. Acer Aspire One AOA110-1295 Netbook - Intel Atom™ Processor
    N270 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g Wireless, 512MB DDR2, 8GB SSD, 8.9"
    WSVGA, Integrated Webcam, Linpus Linux Lite
    Item #: S445-8001
    Empower yourself with the incredibly light yet remarkably
    productive Acer Aspire One – the new thin & light netbook that
    weighs only 2.19 pounds.
    $349.99

    7. Asus Eee PC 4G Netbook - Intel Mobile CPU, 802.11b/g Wireless,
    512MB DDR2, 4GB SSD, 7" WVGA, Webcam, Linux, Pearl White
    Item #: A455-7212
    The new Asus Eee PC 4G brings portable computing to the next
    level. At 7-inches and weighing only 2 pounds, you can take the
    Eee PC anywhere.
    $369.99

    9. Acer Aspire One AOA110-1626 Netbook - Intel Atom™ Processor
    N270 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 16GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA,
    Integrated Webcam, Linpus Linux Lite (Onyx Black)
    Item #: A180-8002
    Empower yourself with the incredibly light yet remarkably
    productive Acer Aspire One – the new thin & light netbook that
    weighs only 2.19 pounds.
    $369.99

    10. Sylvania G Netbook Meso - Intel Atom Processor 1.60GHz,
    802.11b/g Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 80GB HDD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated
    Webcam, Ubuntu Netbook Remix (Onyx)
    Item #: D516-7003
    Free yourself from clumsy electronics and enjoy uncompromising
    mobility with the g netbook.
    $379.99

    11. Sylvania G Netbook Meso - Intel Atom Processor 1.60GHz,
    802.11b/g Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 80GB HDD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated
    Webcam, Ubuntu Netbook Remix (Solar)
    Item #: D516-7004
    Free yourself from clumsy electronics and enjoy uncompromising
    mobility with the g netbook.
    $379.99

    12. Sylvania G Netbook Meso - Intel Atom Processor 1.60GHz,
    802.11b/g Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 80GB HDD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated
    Webcam, Ubuntu Netbook Remix (Snow)
    Item #: D516-7006
    Free yourself from clumsy electronics and enjoy uncompromising
    mobility with the g netbook.
    $379.99

    18. Asus Eee PC 900 Netbook - Intel Mobile CPU, 802.11b/g
    Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 20GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated Webcam,
    Linux (Galaxy Black)
    Item #: A455-9504
    You demanded it. We have it! The new 8.9-inch, 2.18-pound Asus
    Eee PC 900. It’s easy to learn, work and play when you own an
    Asus Eee PC 900.
    $429.99

    26. Asus Eee PC 901 Netbook - Intel Mobile Atom Processor,
    Bluetooth, 802.11b/g/n Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 20GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA,
    Webcam, Linux (Fine Ebony)
    Item #: A455-8001
    While plenty of PCs promise a revolutionary impact, few deliver
    the goods. That’s not the case with our new Asus Eee PC 901.
    $519.99

    27. Asus Eee PC 900 Netbook - Intel Mobile CPU, 802.11b/g
    Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 20GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated Webcam,
    Linux (Pearl White)
    Item #: A455-9500
    You demanded it. We have it! The new 8.9-inch, 2.18-pound Asus
    Eee PC 900. It’s easy to learn, work and play when you own an
    Asus Eee PC 900.
    $564.99

    28. Asus Eee PC 1000 Netbook - Intel Mobile Atom Processor,
    Bluetooth, 802.11b/g/n Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 40GB SSD, 10" WSVGA,
    Webcam, Linux (Fine Ebony)
    Item #: A455-10002
    While plenty of PCs promise a revolutionary impact, few deliver
    the goods. That’s not the case with our new Asus Eee PC 1000.
    $599.99

    29. Asus Eee PC 1000 Netbook - Intel Atom Processor, Bluetooth,
    802.11b/g/n Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 40GB SSD, 10" WSVGA, Webcam,
    Linux (Pearl White)
    Item #: A455-10001
    While plenty of PCs promise a revolutionary impact, few deliver
    the goods. That’s not the case with our new Asus Eee PC 1000.
    $629.99

    Page 1 of 2

    >> A good set of software can also include customised images
    >> and plenty of software of interest, such as an office suite.

    >
    > Is this you trying to do a "Terry"?


    ???

    >> Why can't PCs be sold without an operating system? Because,
    >> as Microsoft wishfully argues, customers would struggle to
    >> install the operating system.

    >
    > PCs are sold without OSen. All the time. Try looking. But its
    > all about choice. And most people just want a PC with Windows.
    > Sad, but true.


    Not true. See above listing.

    >> So make it easier.
    >>
    >> Windows will continue to be a hard-to-install mess as long
    >> as it provides this argument that Joe Sixpack can't have it
    >> installed.

    >
    > Huh? What ARE you talking about?!?!?!?!?
    >
    >> In other words, as long as Windows is bad, it's more likely
    >> to be bundled, without the offering of choice.
    >>
    >> Apple and its separate universe of 'xenophobic' hardware and
    >> software is another matter altogether.

    >
    > Yes. It just works and is gaining Market Share at quite a
    > rate. But you knew it uses standard Intel too ow didn't you?
    > No? Oh dear me ....


    Interesting that the focus is on "Market Share", which implies
    specific profit.

    >> Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or
    >> restaurant serve just one meal because choice is bad and
    >> cooking is too complicated?

    >
    > Is that supposed to be an analogy? If so it was incredibly
    > bad.


    Yet does not explain why.

    > New houses DO come with electrictiy and water however ....


    ???

    >> Being a norm does not make anything right or acceptable.

    >
    > You're a pretentious idiot.


    Then ends with insult. Rather sad this troll cannot respect the
    individual and cannot sufficiently discuss the merits or demerits
    of a poster's arguments.

    --
    HPT

  4. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    High Plains Thumper writes:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >> Roy Schestowitz writes:
    >>
    >>> A computer needs to be as simple to use as an appliance.
    >>> Whenever you switch it on, it enters a mode of full
    >>> operation.

    >>
    >> Whatever that means. Most people dont give a tuppence - they
    >> want their application SW to work.
    >>
    >>> When you install software on it, everything should be set up
    >>> completely, without a hitch.
    >>>
    >>> Failing to achieve a simple installation, it's clear that
    >>> something is amiss.

    >>
    >> Err, yeah ...
    >>
    >>> PCs should be sold separately from software. If the software
    >>> is trivial to install, then it can be offered as an option
    >>> alongside hardware. It only takes minuted to install from a
    >>> CD-ROM.

    >>
    >> Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is
    >> a job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC
    >> ready out of the box for them to install and configure their
    >> application SW which offers them their market advantage when
    >> used properly.

    >
    > http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...:2814|&Recs=30
    >
    > PC's configured with Linux:


    So you disagree with Roy too? Good.

    >
    >
    > 1. Everex CloudBook CE1200V Refurbished Netbook - VIA C7-M ULV 1.2GHz,
    > 802.11b/g Wireless, 512MB DDR2, 30GB HDD, 7" WVGA, Integrated Webcam,
    > gOS V2
    > Item #: E80-7001 RB
    > Sporting a 7-inch WVGA display, this light as a cloud computer weighs
    > a scant 2 pounds, and offers as much as 5 hours of battery life.
    > $289.99
    >
    > 2. Sylvania G Netbook - VIA C7-M ULV Processor 1.2GHz, 802.11b/g
    > Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 30GB HDD, 7" WVGA, Integrated Webcam, Linux Based
    > gOS Operating System
    > Item #: D516-7001
    > Integrated Webcam, Linux Based gOS Operating System
    > At just under two pounds, the netbook by Sylvania brings you ultra
    > light portability and wireless Internet connectivity built right in.
    > $299.96
    >
    > 3. Acer Aspire One AOA110-1295 Netbook - Intel Atomâ„¢ Processor N270
    > 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g Wireless, 512MB DDR2, 8GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA,
    > Integrated Webcam, Linpus Linux Lite
    > Item #: A180-8001
    > Empower yourself with the incredibly light yet remarkably productive
    > Acer Aspire One – the new thin & light notebook that weighs only 2.19
    > pounds.
    > $349.96
    >
    > 4. Acer Aspire One AOA110-1295 Netbook - Intel Atomâ„¢ Processor N270
    > 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g Wireless, 512MB DDR2, 8GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA,
    > Integrated Webcam, Linpus Linux Lite
    > Item #: S445-8001
    > Empower yourself with the incredibly light yet remarkably productive
    > Acer Aspire One – the new thin & light netbook that weighs only 2.19
    > pounds.
    > $349.99
    >
    > 7. Asus Eee PC 4G Netbook - Intel Mobile CPU, 802.11b/g Wireless,
    > 512MB DDR2, 4GB SSD, 7" WVGA, Webcam, Linux, Pearl White
    > Item #: A455-7212
    > The new Asus Eee PC 4G brings portable computing to the next level. At
    > 7-inches and weighing only 2 pounds, you can take the Eee PC anywhere.
    > $369.99
    >
    > 9. Acer Aspire One AOA110-1626 Netbook - Intel Atomâ„¢ Processor N270
    > 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 16GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA,
    > Integrated Webcam, Linpus Linux Lite (Onyx Black)
    > Item #: A180-8002
    > Empower yourself with the incredibly light yet remarkably productive
    > Acer Aspire One – the new thin & light netbook that weighs only 2.19
    > pounds.
    > $369.99
    >
    > 10. Sylvania G Netbook Meso - Intel Atom Processor 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g
    > Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 80GB HDD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated Webcam, Ubuntu
    > Netbook Remix (Onyx)
    > Item #: D516-7003
    > Free yourself from clumsy electronics and enjoy uncompromising
    > mobility with the g netbook.
    > $379.99
    >
    > 11. Sylvania G Netbook Meso - Intel Atom Processor 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g
    > Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 80GB HDD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated Webcam, Ubuntu
    > Netbook Remix (Solar)
    > Item #: D516-7004
    > Free yourself from clumsy electronics and enjoy uncompromising
    > mobility with the g netbook.
    > $379.99
    >
    > 12. Sylvania G Netbook Meso - Intel Atom Processor 1.60GHz, 802.11b/g
    > Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 80GB HDD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated Webcam, Ubuntu
    > Netbook Remix (Snow)
    > Item #: D516-7006
    > Free yourself from clumsy electronics and enjoy uncompromising
    > mobility with the g netbook.
    > $379.99
    >
    > 18. Asus Eee PC 900 Netbook - Intel Mobile CPU, 802.11b/g Wireless,
    > 1GB DDR2, 20GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated Webcam, Linux (Galaxy
    > Black)
    > Item #: A455-9504
    > You demanded it. We have it! The new 8.9-inch, 2.18-pound Asus Eee PC
    > 900. It’s easy to learn, work and play when you own an Asus Eee PC
    > 900.
    > $429.99
    >
    > 26. Asus Eee PC 901 Netbook - Intel Mobile Atom Processor, Bluetooth,
    > 802.11b/g/n Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 20GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA, Webcam, Linux
    > (Fine Ebony)
    > Item #: A455-8001
    > While plenty of PCs promise a revolutionary impact, few deliver the
    > goods. That’s not the case with our new Asus Eee PC 901.
    > $519.99
    >
    > 27. Asus Eee PC 900 Netbook - Intel Mobile CPU, 802.11b/g Wireless,
    > 1GB DDR2, 20GB SSD, 8.9" WSVGA, Integrated Webcam, Linux (Pearl White)
    > Item #: A455-9500
    > You demanded it. We have it! The new 8.9-inch, 2.18-pound Asus Eee PC
    > 900. It’s easy to learn, work and play when you own an Asus Eee PC
    > 900.
    > $564.99
    >
    > 28. Asus Eee PC 1000 Netbook - Intel Mobile Atom Processor, Bluetooth,
    > 802.11b/g/n Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 40GB SSD, 10" WSVGA, Webcam, Linux
    > (Fine Ebony)
    > Item #: A455-10002
    > While plenty of PCs promise a revolutionary impact, few deliver the
    > goods. That’s not the case with our new Asus Eee PC 1000.
    > $599.99
    >
    > 29. Asus Eee PC 1000 Netbook - Intel Atom Processor, Bluetooth,
    > 802.11b/g/n Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 40GB SSD, 10" WSVGA, Webcam, Linux
    > (Pearl White)
    > Item #: A455-10001
    > While plenty of PCs promise a revolutionary impact, few deliver the
    > goods. That’s not the case with our new Asus Eee PC 1000.
    > $629.99
    >
    > Page 1 of 2
    >
    >
    >>> A good set of software can also include customised images
    >>> and plenty of software of interest, such as an office suite.

    >>
    >> Is this you trying to do a "Terry"?

    >
    > ???
    >
    >>> Why can't PCs be sold without an operating system? Because,
    >>> as Microsoft wishfully argues, customers would struggle to
    >>> install the operating system.

    >>
    >> PCs are sold without OSen. All the time. Try looking. But its
    >> all about choice. And most people just want a PC with Windows.
    >> Sad, but true.

    >
    > Not true. See above listing.


    That list proves nothing other than some PCs ship with Linux. As we all
    know. And I said hundreds of times here when people whined about
    Microsoft's "monopoly". It most certainly does not magically disprove
    that MOST people want Windows since its what they are used to. Or do you
    deny this?

    >
    >>> So make it easier.
    >>>
    >>> Windows will continue to be a hard-to-install mess as long
    >>> as it provides this argument that Joe Sixpack can't have it
    >>> installed.

    >>
    >> Huh? What ARE you talking about?!?!?!?!?
    >>
    >>> In other words, as long as Windows is bad, it's more likely
    >>> to be bundled, without the offering of choice.
    >>>
    >>> Apple and its separate universe of 'xenophobic' hardware and
    >>> software is another matter altogether.

    >>
    >> Yes. It just works and is gaining Market Share at quite a
    >> rate. But you knew it uses standard Intel too ow didn't you?
    >> No? Oh dear me ....

    >
    > Interesting that the focus is on "Market Share", which implies
    > specific profit.


    Only to a complete dribbling moron who can not understand the meaning in
    context.

    >
    >>> Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or
    >>> restaurant serve just one meal because choice is bad and
    >>> cooking is too complicated?

    >>
    >> Is that supposed to be an analogy? If so it was incredibly
    >> bad.

    >
    > Yet does not explain why.
    >
    >> New houses DO come with electrictiy and water however ....

    >
    > ???


    You really can not join the dots? Is it really too complicated?!?!?!

    Look : electricity, pipes, ducts etc are the core "come with the house"
    items. Think of it like a base OS.

    If anything Linux preinstalled is LESS choice since it invariably comes
    with a bunch of apps you might NOT want!

    Do try and think once in a while.

    >
    >>> Being a norm does not make anything right or acceptable.

    >>
    >> You're a pretentious idiot.

    >
    > Then ends with insult. Rather sad this troll cannot respect the
    > individual and cannot sufficiently discuss the merits or demerits of a
    > poster's arguments.


    His post was inconsistent and misleading. The analogy was awful. The
    contents false. What else can I say?

  5. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    After takin' a swig o' grog, High Plains Thumper belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >> Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is
    >> a job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC
    >> ready out of the box for them to install and configure their
    >> application SW which offers them their market advantage when
    >> used properly.


    Indeed, Hadron is correct.

    > http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...:2814|&Recs=30
    >
    > PC's configured with Linux:
    >
    >
    > 2. Sylvania G Netbook - VIA C7-M ULV Processor 1.2GHz, 802.11b/g
    > Wireless, 1GB DDR2, 30GB HDD, 7" WVGA, Integrated Webcam, Linux
    > Based gOS Operating System
    > Item #: D516-7001
    > Integrated Webcam, Linux Based gOS Operating System
    > At just under two pounds, the netbook by Sylvania brings you
    > ultra light portability and wireless Internet connectivity built
    > right in.
    > $299.96
    >


    Interesting model, more RAM and disk space than the low-end
    Eeee PC available at your local Target store.

    >> PCs are sold without OSen. All the time. Try looking. But its
    >> all about choice. And most people just want a PC with Windows.
    >> Sad, but true.

    >
    > Not true. See above listing.


    Indeed, when consumers are offered a /real/ choice, a surprising number
    choose the Linux option.

    >> You're a pretentious idiot.

    >
    > Then ends with insult. Rather sad this troll cannot respect the
    > individual and cannot sufficiently discuss the merits or demerits
    > of a poster's arguments.


    Sad, but true/
    Where's Hadron II?/

    --
    Not that I have anything much against redundancy. But I said that already.
    -- Larry Wall in <199702271735.JAA04048@wall.org>

  6. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
    > Hadron wrote:


    >> Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is a
    >> job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC ready out
    >> of the box for them to install and configure their application SW


    Right, so people (FSVO: "people") don't want to install an OS, but they
    are joyful at the prospect of researching for apps they need, locating a
    retailer to purchase those apps from, paying vast amounts of money for
    them, waiting for them to arrive through the mail (or trawling for hours
    through shops filled with clueless clerks), receiving them, reading the
    installation requirements; license and instructions, reluctantly
    agreeing to a prohibitive license, installing the software (along with
    whatever other steps may be required, such as the inevitable "disable
    your antivirus and/or firewall"), dealing with the equally inevitable
    installation issues (everything from installation failure to BSODs),
    typing in the serial number, going through the laborious; insulting and
    often dysfunctional "activation" process, then finally discovering that
    this "killer app" doesn't actually work very well on their version of
    Windows (Vista), as they wait months for an update that's "coming soon"?

    Idiot.

    >>> Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or
    >>> restaurant serve just one meal because choice is bad and cooking
    >>> is too complicated?

    >>
    >> Is that supposed to be an analogy? If so it was incredibly bad.

    >
    > Yet does not explain why.
    >
    >> New houses DO come with electrictiy and water however ....

    >
    > ???


    Talk about bad analogies!

    I don't know about Hardon's neck of the woods, but round these parts
    people have a /choice/ of energy supplier. As for water, that isn't
    "owned" by private companies (in the UK, anyway). One pays the
    /government/ (local council) water charges as part of the council tax.

    Roy's analogy was a good one, however.

    Imagine if a property company only allowed you to purchase a house under
    the strict conditions that you only buy your carpets from General
    George, and you only buy your furnishings from Homebase, etc., etc. That
    is exactly what it is like buying the vast majority of PCs today. If you
    buy the PC then you /must/ "furnish" it with Microsoft's Windows.

    That, ladies and gentlemen, is racketeering, pure and simple.

    Hardon obviously doesn't like choice, because he supports this racket.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    05:01:56 up 4 days, 12:44, 4 users, load average: 4.39, 4.24, 4.13

  7. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    Verily I say unto thee, that Chris Ahlstrom spake thusly:
    >> Hadron wrote:


    >>> Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is a
    >>> job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC ready out
    >>> of the box for them to install and configure their application SW
    >>> which offers them their market advantage when used properly.

    >
    > Indeed, Hadron is correct.


    ???

    You forget that "most people" who run Windows end up having to reinstall
    it anyway, sooner or later (usually sooner). Whether they "want" to or
    not is beside the point. Also see the points in my previous post
    regarding hunting down; purchasing and installing all the applications
    "most people" running Windows will inevitably "want". They can do that,
    but not install an OS?

    Rubbish.

    Let me ask you this, would you "want" an OS that prohibited you from
    installing software, or hardware that prevented you from installing a
    different (or newer) OS?

    What's not to like about the Freedom to do whatever you like with your
    own property?

    You should know by now that Hardon is not right; he is in fact never
    right; he's quite incapable of /ever/ being right. He's an idiot.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    05:18:42 up 4 days, 13:01, 4 users, load average: 4.34, 4.97, 4.63

  8. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Homer belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that Chris Ahlstrom spake thusly:
    >>> Hadron wrote:

    >
    >>>> Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is a
    >>>> job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC ready out
    >>>> of the box for them to install and configure their application SW
    >>>> which offers them their market advantage when used properly.

    >>
    >> Indeed, Hadron is correct.

    >
    > ???


    No ??? here Homer. Most people cannot deal with even minor complications,
    and when these complications inevitably occur, they dun their friends and
    guys like us to "fix my computer".

    They want simplicity. Just because they generally don't get it for very
    long doesn't negate that desire.

    > You forget that "most people" who run Windows end up having to reinstall
    > it anyway, sooner or later (usually sooner). Whether they "want" to or
    > not is beside the point. Also see the points in my previous post
    > regarding hunting down; purchasing and installing all the applications
    > "most people" running Windows will inevitably "want". They can do that,
    > but not install an OS?
    >
    > Rubbish.


    Not quite. People are generally used to installing one app at a time, over
    the course of months. And, generally, apart from the humiliating and
    insulting step of keying in "activation codes", each app isn't very hard to
    install.

    > Let me ask you this, would you "want" an OS that prohibited you from
    > installing software, or hardware that prevented you from installing a
    > different (or newer) OS?
    >
    > What's not to like about the Freedom to do whatever you like with your
    > own property?
    >
    > You should know by now that Hardon is not right; he is in fact never
    > right; he's quite incapable of /ever/ being right. He's an idiot.


    He is, but there are correct statements that can be made even by an idiot.

    Surely you've dealt with people who close their eyes, clench their fists,
    and say "I just want it to work, okay!!?". Those are Microsoft's prime
    marks.

    --
    If you had just a minute to breathe,
    And they granted you one final wish,
    Would you ask for something
    Like another chance?
    -- Traffic, "The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys"

  9. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:02:13 +0000, Homer wrote:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
    >> Hadron wrote:

    >
    >>> Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is a
    >>> job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC ready out
    >>> of the box for them to install and configure their application SW

    >
    > Right, so people (FSVO: "people") don't want to install an OS, but they
    > are joyful at the prospect of researching for apps they need, locating a
    > retailer to purchase those apps from, paying vast amounts of money for
    > them, waiting for them to arrive through the mail (or trawling for hours
    > through shops filled with clueless clerks), receiving them, reading the
    > installation requirements; license and instructions, reluctantly
    > agreeing to a prohibitive license, installing the software (along with
    > whatever other steps may be required, such as the inevitable "disable
    > your antivirus and/or firewall"), dealing with the equally inevitable
    > installation issues (everything from installation failure to BSODs),
    > typing in the serial number, going through the laborious; insulting and
    > often dysfunctional "activation" process, then finally discovering that
    > this "killer app" doesn't actually work very well on their version of
    > Windows (Vista), as they wait months for an update that's "coming soon"?
    >
    > Idiot.
    >
    >>>> Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or
    >>>> restaurant serve just one meal because choice is bad and cooking
    >>>> is too complicated?
    >>>
    >>> Is that supposed to be an analogy? If so it was incredibly bad.

    >>
    >> Yet does not explain why.
    >>
    >>> New houses DO come with electrictiy and water however ....

    >>
    >> ???

    >
    > Talk about bad analogies!
    >
    > I don't know about Hardon's neck of the woods, but round these parts
    > people have a /choice/ of energy supplier. As for water, that isn't
    > "owned" by private companies (in the UK, anyway). One pays the
    > /government/ (local council) water charges as part of the council tax.
    >
    > Roy's analogy was a good one, however.
    >
    > Imagine if a property company only allowed you to purchase a house under
    > the strict conditions that you only buy your carpets from General
    > George, and you only buy your furnishings from Homebase, etc., etc. That
    > is exactly what it is like buying the vast majority of PCs today. If you
    > buy the PC then you /must/ "furnish" it with Microsoft's Windows.
    >
    > That, ladies and gentlemen, is racketeering, pure and simple.
    >
    > Hardon obviously doesn't like choice, because he supports this racket.


    Naturally, because Hardon Quack is a M$ fanboi, "long term XP user &
    programmer" (his words - Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.ubuntu
    Message-ID: <87y7hxdaei.fsf@googlemail.com>).

    --
    Most people are sheep. *
    Microsoft is very effective
    at fleecing the flockers.



  10. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    William Poaster writes:

    > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:02:13 +0000, Homer wrote:
    >
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
    >>> Hadron wrote:

    >>
    >>>> Most people dont want to have to do that. Installing the OS is a
    >>>> job for jobsworth tape monkeys. Most people want the PC ready out
    >>>> of the box for them to install and configure their application SW

    >>
    >> Right, so people (FSVO: "people") don't want to install an OS, but they
    >> are joyful at the prospect of researching for apps they need, locating a
    >> retailer to purchase those apps from, paying vast amounts of money for
    >> them, waiting for them to arrive through the mail (or trawling for hours
    >> through shops filled with clueless clerks), receiving them, reading the
    >> installation requirements; license and instructions, reluctantly
    >> agreeing to a prohibitive license, installing the software (along with
    >> whatever other steps may be required, such as the inevitable "disable
    >> your antivirus and/or firewall"), dealing with the equally inevitable
    >> installation issues (everything from installation failure to BSODs),
    >> typing in the serial number, going through the laborious; insulting and
    >> often dysfunctional "activation" process, then finally discovering that
    >> this "killer app" doesn't actually work very well on their version of
    >> Windows (Vista), as they wait months for an update that's "coming soon"?
    >>
    >> Idiot.
    >>
    >>>>> Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or
    >>>>> restaurant serve just one meal because choice is bad and cooking
    >>>>> is too complicated?
    >>>>
    >>>> Is that supposed to be an analogy? If so it was incredibly bad.
    >>>
    >>> Yet does not explain why.
    >>>
    >>>> New houses DO come with electrictiy and water however ....
    >>>
    >>> ???

    >>
    >> Talk about bad analogies!
    >>
    >> I don't know about Hardon's neck of the woods, but round these parts
    >> people have a /choice/ of energy supplier. As for water, that isn't
    >> "owned" by private companies (in the UK, anyway). One pays the
    >> /government/ (local council) water charges as part of the council tax.
    >>
    >> Roy's analogy was a good one, however.


    No it wasnt. It was atrocious particularly since you CAN buy PCs with no
    OS.


    >>
    >> Imagine if a property company only allowed you to purchase a house under
    >> the strict conditions that you only buy your carpets from General
    >> George, and you only buy your furnishings from Homebase, etc., etc. That
    >> is exactly what it is like buying the vast majority of PCs today. If you
    >> buy the PC then you /must/ "furnish" it with Microsoft's Windows.


    So dont buy them. Buy another one. What is the matter with you?!?!?!? Or
    buy one and pay Terry Clueless 100 bucks to install Linux for you ....

    >>
    >> That, ladies and gentlemen, is racketeering, pure and simple.


    Garbage. People want Windows. The suppliers sell more PCs by including
    Windows. People simply do not want to install an OS. They have no need
    to and why should they. Hardcore geeks who want to can buy from another
    source or reinstall after.

    >>
    >> Hardon obviously doesn't like choice, because he supports this
    >> racket.


    I support giving people what they want. And why I was so pleased to see
    DELL offer a Linux solution.

    >
    > Naturally, because Hardon Quack is a M$ fanboi, "long term XP user &
    > programmer" (his words - Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.ubuntu
    > Message-ID: <87y7hxdaei.fsf@googlemail.com>).


    I did use XP for a long time. As most SW Engineers have. Your point
    being?


  11. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case forUnbundling)

    On Nov 8, 2:49 am, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    > Hash: SHA1
    >
    > A computer needs to be as simple to use as an appliance. Whenever you switch it
    > on, it enters a mode of full operation.


    Very bad start. This is a case for *bundling*, absent more input.
    Not irrecoverable, but let us tread on -- carefully, of course.

    >
    > When you install software on it, everything should be set up completely,
    > without a hitch.


    This is *not* a requirement of the computing function,
    although in all fairness, it depends on what one means by a
    "computer" anyway. There's a lot of computers around, from
    the one on one's wristwatch (it meets all the requirements,
    plus it tells time!) to the one in one's microwave, TV set,
    or (in many cases) thermostat, to the box sitting on or
    underneath one's desktop.

    Some of them even run Windows. ;-)

    >
    > Failing to achieve a simple installation, it's clear that something is amiss.


    Depends on the computer. On a desktop, certainly. On a
    laptop, most likely. On a mobile phone, maybe. On a
    microwave, TV, wristwatch, or thermostat, most likely not.

    Assuming "laptop" or "desktop" for the remainder of this
    discussion, with some callouts for mobile phone units.

    >
    > PCs should be sold separately from software. If the software is trivial to
    > install, then it can be offered as an option alongside hardware. It only takes
    > minuted to install from a CD-ROM.


    I'm assuming "30 minutes" here; that's about how long
    it takes for a more or less typical distro install,
    sans obscure problems.

    It is interesting to contemplate installation of a base
    OS for a mobile phone unit; the problems appear vaguely
    similar to today's desktops and laptops.

    One rather nasty possibility is that the OEM charges
    a "bundling/installation fee".

    >
    > A good set of software can also include customised images and plenty of
    > software of interest, such as an office suite.


    I'll admit I'm old-school when it comes to operating
    systems, but one does have a certain minimal set of
    expectations -- one is that it actually works. ;-)

    With Linux, it usually works, after a bit of fussing.
    With Windows, well, it's hard for me to say; it's been
    a long time since I've had to do any Windows installs.
    (Maybe in the 3.1 timeframe -- yipes, where does the
    time go?) Windows works initially, then tends to trip
    over itself.

    >
    > Why can't PCs be sold without an operating system? Because, as Microsoft
    > wishfully argues, customers would struggle to install the operating system.


    Not so wishfully, either. How many people know the
    technical details of defragging of their hard drives,
    for example? At best, they just run the little utility.
    Even I would be hard-pressed to explain some of the gunk
    in there, since I don't know the details of the ext2 file
    format, let alone NTFS. (At least with ext2 I can peruse
    the official source code. NTFS is semi-documented, if only
    because many hackers have gone in there and looked around.)

    Ditto for AV installation, temporary folder cleanout,
    and file compression options.

    >
    > So make it easier.


    And bundle it. Oops, that runs into anti-competitive
    space, which is most definitely an issue here as well
    -- and somewhat at odds with the notion that a desktop
    or laptop should be as simple to operate as a toaster,
    microwave, or phone unit, since toasters and microwaves
    are not expected to have loadable software. (Phones are
    mutating so they might. They're a bit weird right now.)

    This appears to be a tradeoff of competitive versus ease of
    use, from the looks of things. I could be wrong, though.

    >
    > Windows will continue to be a hard-to-install mess as long as it provides this
    > argument that Joe Sixpack can't have it installed.


    The mess is a one-time cost, which makes life interesting.
    For OEMs such as Dell, that cost can be amortized across
    thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of units. For
    Joe Sixpack, well, he might do it once every three months or
    so, depending on how resistant to malware the original install
    is.

    If he's intelligent enough, he'd partition the drive and image
    the system part using a command that in Linux could be expressed

    $ dd if=/dev/hda1 | gzip > hda1.img.gz

    (there are more intuitive utilities such as Norton Ghost which
    provide similar functionality, plus ignoring irrelevant blocks
    in the filesystem). Restores onto the same drive therefore
    work reasonably well.[*]

    If not...it's all magic.

    >
    > In other words, as long as Windows is bad, it's more likely to be bundled,
    > without the offering of choice.


    And that's good for Microsoft -- the naive pay the tax (now
    twice, in fact, if they don't like Vista!) whether they
    like it or not. Is this fair? An interesting question,
    since I've not quite worked out what "fair" is yet in this
    context (the discussions of such will take us far afield,
    of course, starting with people's expectations).

    The short answer is that bundling anticompetitive, of
    course, which would fit into the category of "unfair";
    one also can state that bundling gives Microsoft a rather
    marked advantage, since the OEM pays the licensing fees
    in advance of the actual sale.

    >
    > Apple and its separate universe of 'xenophobic' hardware and software is
    > another matter altogether.


    I think Apple is starting to, as it were, peel the onion, but
    we'll see what's in there.

    >
    > Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or restaurant serve just
    > one meal because choice is bad and cooking is too complicated?


    "Furnished apartments" have such a model, although the furniture is
    not bolted in per se; it's simply "preloaded". Of course the
    user may have some explaining to do if he wants to replace it.

    As for one meal, some restaurants do exactly that. The
    closest I can think of offhand is In-And-Out Burger, who
    specializes in (surprise surprise) burgers; they have
    all of 3 choices on the menu if memory serves.

    One can also think of a hot dog vendor, who serves only hot
    dogs; but even such offer choices in the way of condiments
    such as mustard, ketchup, and relish.

    Some catering functions set things up so there are at most
    two choices -- and the second might be a vegetarian dish.

    >
    > Being a norm does not make anything right or acceptable.


    Or desirable. I'll definitely agree there; however,
    it *is* the norm, and I'll admit to wondering how to
    change it.

    Best I can do is establish a competitor to Dell that is
    sufficiently big. eRacks and System76 look promising
    in the US; those in other countries should have choices
    as well.
    [*] if the drive goes south, things get interesting if the
    user wants to change partition sizes.

  12. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    ____/ The Ghost In The Machine on Monday 10 November 2008 23:45 : \____

    > On Nov 8, 2:49 am, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >> Hash: SHA1
    >>
    >> A computer needs to be as simple to use as an appliance. Whenever you switch
    >> it on, it enters a mode of full operation.

    >
    > Very bad start. This is a case for *bundling*, absent more input.
    > Not irrecoverable, but let us tread on -- carefully, of course.


    Think about installation, not just operation. The idea of chasing down PDF
    readers, drivers, etc. is not realistic for most people. GNU/Linux distros
    don't require all of this. The CD is put on the tray, you switch on the box,
    and follow the instructions.

    >> When you install software on it, everything should be set up completely,
    >> without a hitch.

    >
    > This is *not* a requirement of the computing function,
    > although in all fairness, it depends on what one means by a
    > "computer" anyway. There's a lot of computers around, from
    > the one on one's wristwatch (it meets all the requirements,
    > plus it tells time!) to the one in one's microwave, TV set,
    > or (in many cases) thermostat, to the box sitting on or
    > underneath one's desktop.
    >
    > Some of them even run Windows. ;-)


    True, but let's limit the scope to personal computers.

    >> Failing to achieve a simple installation, it's clear that something is
    >> amiss.

    >
    > Depends on the computer. On a desktop, certainly. On a
    > laptop, most likely. On a mobile phone, maybe. On a
    > microwave, TV, wristwatch, or thermostat, most likely not.
    >
    > Assuming "laptop" or "desktop" for the remainder of this
    > discussion, with some callouts for mobile phone units.


    It's possible to test compatibility for some models and assure it. Lenovo does
    this.

    >> PCs should be sold separately from software. If the software is trivial to
    >> install, then it can be offered as an option alongside hardware. It only
    >> takes minuted to install from a CD-ROM.

    >
    > I'm assuming "30 minutes" here; that's about how long
    > it takes for a more or less typical distro install,
    > sans obscure problems.


    More like 15 minutes, even with a generous amount of additional software.

    Gentoo is another matter of course... :-)

    Make your own binaries....

    > It is interesting to contemplate installation of a base
    > OS for a mobile phone unit; the problems appear vaguely
    > similar to today's desktops and laptops.
    >
    > One rather nasty possibility is that the OEM charges
    > a "bundling/installation fee".


    It already does. Well, in a sense it does.

    >> A good set of software can also include customised images and plenty of
    >> software of interest, such as an office suite.

    >
    > I'll admit I'm old-school when it comes to operating
    > systems, but one does have a certain minimal set of
    > expectations -- one is that it actually works. ;-)
    >
    > With Linux, it usually works, after a bit of fussing.
    > With Windows, well, it's hard for me to say; it's been
    > a long time since I've had to do any Windows installs.
    > (Maybe in the 3.1 timeframe -- yipes, where does the
    > time go?) Windows works initially, then tends to trip
    > over itself.


    Have you installed Windows recently?

    >> Why can't PCs be sold without an operating system? Because, as Microsoft
    >> wishfully argues, customers would struggle to install the operating system.

    >
    > Not so wishfully, either. How many people know the
    > technical details of defragging of their hard drives,
    > for example? At best, they just run the little utility.
    > Even I would be hard-pressed to explain some of the gunk
    > in there, since I don't know the details of the ext2 file
    > format, let alone NTFS. (At least with ext2 I can peruse
    > the official source code. NTFS is semi-documented, if only
    > because many hackers have gone in there and looked around.)
    >
    > Ditto for AV installation, temporary folder cleanout,
    > and file compression options.
    >
    >>
    >> So make it easier.

    >
    > And bundle it. Oops, that runs into anti-competitive
    > space, which is most definitely an issue here as well
    > -- and somewhat at odds with the notion that a desktop
    > or laptop should be as simple to operate as a toaster,
    > microwave, or phone unit, since toasters and microwaves
    > are not expected to have loadable software. (Phones are
    > mutating so they might. They're a bit weird right now.)


    One proposal that was made is a display of software cost on each machine
    (mandatory) so refunds can be requested and issued on the spot. Another option
    is /forcing/ the seller to offer open PCs (no O/S).

    > This appears to be a tradeoff of competitive versus ease of
    > use, from the looks of things. I could be wrong, though.


    What Microsoft does with OEMs it also does with schools. It does a sort
    of 'blanket' licence, so removing some deployments of Windows has no effect on
    the price. Intel played similar (illegal) tricks.

    >> Windows will continue to be a hard-to-install mess as long as it provides
    >> this argument that Joe Sixpack can't have it installed.

    >
    > The mess is a one-time cost, which makes life interesting.
    > For OEMs such as Dell, that cost can be amortized across
    > thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of units. For
    > Joe Sixpack, well, he might do it once every three months or
    > so, depending on how resistant to malware the original install
    > is.
    >
    > If he's intelligent enough, he'd partition the drive and image
    > the system part using a command that in Linux could be expressed
    >
    > $ dd if=/dev/hda1 | gzip > hda1.img.gz
    >
    > (there are more intuitive utilities such as Norton Ghost which
    > provide similar functionality, plus ignoring irrelevant blocks
    > in the filesystem). Restores onto the same drive therefore
    > work reasonably well.[*]
    >
    > If not...it's all magic.
    >
    >>
    >> In other words, as long as Windows is bad, it's more likely to be bundled,
    >> without the offering of choice.

    >
    > And that's good for Microsoft -- the naive pay the tax (now
    > twice, in fact, if they don't like Vista!) whether they
    > like it or not. Is this fair? An interesting question,
    > since I've not quite worked out what "fair" is yet in this
    > context (the discussions of such will take us far afield,
    > of course, starting with people's expectations).
    >
    > The short answer is that bundling anticompetitive, of
    > course, which would fit into the category of "unfair";
    > one also can state that bundling gives Microsoft a rather
    > marked advantage, since the OEM pays the licensing fees
    > in advance of the actual sale.


    If we've come a long way in technology, then many floppies are no longer needed
    to set up PCs. In fact, network installs are another fascinating option that
    firmware can handle (setup 'on tap').

    >> Apple and its separate universe of 'xenophobic' hardware and software is
    >> another matter altogether.

    >
    > I think Apple is starting to, as it were, peel the onion, but
    > we'll see what's in there.


    Apple doesn't actively attack Linux as much as Microsoft (lockin and DRM remain
    a pain though), so it's a bit distracting to fight back in their direction.

    >> Should houses also be built with furniture bolted in? Or restaurant serve
    >> just one meal because choice is bad and cooking is too complicated?

    >
    > "Furnished apartments" have such a model, although the furniture is
    > not bolted in per se; it's simply "preloaded". Of course the
    > user may have some explaining to do if he wants to replace it.
    >
    > As for one meal, some restaurants do exactly that. The
    > closest I can think of offhand is In-And-Out Burger, who
    > specializes in (surprise surprise) burgers; they have
    > all of 3 choices on the menu if memory serves.
    >
    > One can also think of a hot dog vendor, who serves only hot
    > dogs; but even such offer choices in the way of condiments
    > such as mustard, ketchup, and relish.
    >
    > Some catering functions set things up so there are at most
    > two choices -- and the second might be a vegetarian dish.


    Another analogy might be a sandwich which comes with too much stuff you need to
    remove (e.g. pickles). Why not just serve what you want in the first place?

    >> Being a norm does not make anything right or acceptable.

    >
    > Or desirable. I'll definitely agree there; however,
    > it *is* the norm, and I'll admit to wondering how to
    > change it.
    >
    > Best I can do is establish a competitor to Dell that is
    > sufficiently big. eRacks and System76 look promising
    > in the US; those in other countries should have choices
    > as well.


    There's good progress on this in Europe, esp. France.

    >[*] if the drive goes south, things get interesting if the
    > user wants to change partition sizes.


    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | "Have you compiled your kernel today?"
    http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Tasks: 140 total, 1 running, 139 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine
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  13. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case forUnbundling)

    On Nov 10, 8:37 am, Hadron wrote:
    > William Poaster writes:
    > > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:02:13 +0000, Homer wrote:


    > >> That, ladies and gentlemen, is racketeering, pure and simple.

    >
    > Garbage. People want Windows. The suppliers sell more PCs by including
    > Windows. People simply do not want to install an OS. They have no need
    > to and why should they. Hardcore geeks who want to can buy from another
    > source or reinstall after.


    That's probably more in question right now. Apple is now about to
    become #2 by dollar volume, and #1 in terms of profit. There are now
    a bunch of really upset PC makers who have been bleeding red ink over
    Vista, and if Obama doesn't enforce the clause of the Antitrust
    Settlement telling Microsoft not to interfere with OEM's attempts to
    sell competitor products like Linux - the OEMs very likely will. Acer
    and ASUS have already gotten concessions from Microsoft by offering
    "Linux-only" sub-notebook machines to the retail market. Microsoft
    gave them XP Home edition, but even then, they are selling more of the
    Linux machines than they ever expected.

    More and more companies are switching more and more corporate
    workstations to Linux - usually starting with Point of Service systems
    then Call Center systems and eventually managers and executives. The
    Retailers are fed up too. CompUSA went bankrupt and had to close down
    almost all of their retail stores. Circuit City just filed for
    bankruptcy and is also likely to have to close down many of it's
    stores, if not all. The PC has been a horrible loss engine,
    ESPECIALLY since the release of Vista.

    > >> Hardon obviously doesn't like choice, because he supports this
    > >> racket.


    > I support giving people what they want. And why I was so pleased to see
    > DELL offer a Linux solution.


    The problem is that, especially in the United States, you can't
    actually walk into a retail store and get a hands-on experience of
    Linux on that Dell.

    It was a huge breakthrough to have ASUS and ACER sub-notebooks on
    retail shelves during back-to-school season. ASUS reported that 60%
    of the EEEs sold were Linux versions. When people actually get a
    first-hand experience of Linux, it's new, different, but not so
    horrible that they couldn't consider using it at all.

    What the OEMs and Retailers REALLY want, is the same deal Apple gets,
    the ability to ship machines with *nix AND Windows, using parallels or
    something equally practical and cheap.



  14. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    Rex Ballard wrote:
    > On Nov 10, 8:37 am, Hadron wrote:
    >> William Poaster writes:
    >>> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:02:13 +0000, Homer wrote:

    >
    >>>> That, ladies and gentlemen, is racketeering, pure and simple.

    >>
    >> Garbage. People want Windows. The suppliers sell more PCs by
    >> including Windows. People simply do not want to install an OS. They
    >> have no need to and why should they. Hardcore geeks who want to can
    >> buy from another source or reinstall after.

    >
    > That's probably more in question right now. Apple is now about to
    > become #2 by dollar volume, and #1 in terms of profit. There are now
    > a bunch of really upset PC makers who have been bleeding red ink over
    > Vista,


    Which bunch is that?


    > and if Obama doesn't enforce the clause of the Antitrust
    > Settlement telling Microsoft not to interfere with OEM's attempts to
    > sell competitor products like Linux - the OEMs very likely will.


    How do you know MS has ever interfered with an OEM trying to sell Linux?
    Michael Dell says they never talked to him about Linux.



    > Acer
    > and ASUS have already gotten concessions from Microsoft by offering
    > "Linux-only" sub-notebook machines to the retail market.


    How do you know?


    > Microsoft
    > gave them XP Home edition, but even then, they are selling more of the
    > Linux machines than they ever expected.


    How do you know?



    > More and more companies are switching more and more corporate
    > workstations to Linux -


    How do you know?


    > usually starting with Point of Service systems
    > then Call Center systems and eventually managers and executives. The
    > Retailers are fed up too.


    How do you know?


    > CompUSA went bankrupt and had to close down
    > almost all of their retail stores.


    GM's on the verge of bankruptcy, too, all because of Windows Vista, of
    course.


    > Circuit City just filed for
    > bankruptcy and is also likely to have to close down many of it's
    > stores, if not all. The PC has been a horrible loss engine,
    > ESPECIALLY since the release of Vista.


    To really finish off the PC industry, do away with MS Windows and make
    everyone sell Linux crapware.



    >>>> Hardon obviously doesn't like choice, because he supports this
    >>>> racket.

    >
    >> I support giving people what they want. And why I was so pleased to
    >> see DELL offer a Linux solution.

    >
    > The problem is that, especially in the United States, you can't
    > actually walk into a retail store and get a hands-on experience of
    > Linux on that Dell.


    Why is that a problem? What's keeping the OEMs from doing so?


    > It was a huge breakthrough to have ASUS and ACER sub-notebooks on
    > retail shelves during back-to-school season. ASUS reported that 60%
    > of the EEEs sold were Linux versions.


    MSI reported Linux netbooks are returned 4x as often as Windows netbooks.


    > When people actually get a
    > first-hand experience of Linux, it's new, different, but not so
    > horrible that they couldn't consider using it at all.


    That's quite a testimonial, Rex.


    > What the OEMs and Retailers REALLY want, is the same deal Apple gets,
    > the ability to ship machines with *nix AND Windows, using parallels or
    > something equally practical and cheap.


    How do you know what the OEMs want?




  15. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    ____/ Rex Ballard on Tuesday 11 November 2008 04:38 : \____

    > More and more companies are switching more and more corporate
    > workstations to Linux - usually starting with Point of Service systems
    > then Call Center systems and eventually managers and executives. Â*The
    > Retailers are fed up too. Â*CompUSA went bankrupt and had to close down
    > almost all of their retail stores. Â*Circuit City just filed for
    > bankruptcy and is also likely to have to close down many of it's
    > stores, if not all.


    http://www.reuters.com/article/domes...4A936V20081110

    Remember this?

    ..----[Quote
    | While Microsoft continues to praise the market success of its
    | latest operating system, the number of critical voices and negative
    | comments on sales figures for Vista continues to rise. Now, the
    | Dixon Store Group (DSG), a British retail chain, has released
    | specific figures. The firm says that it earned 20 million pounds
    | less in the first two quarters of the year because sales of Vista
    | products did not meet expectations.
    |
    | The DSG says it has had to write off excess inventory, which
    | brought down the retailer's gross margin by 2 percent. The Group
    | says that far fewer Vista computers were sold at its PC World chain
    | than were put on inventory.
    `----

    http://www.heise.de/english/newstick...655/from/rss09

    Now watch this from yesterrday:

    http://www.channelregister.co.uk/200...gi_euro_world/

    "According to the Sunday Times, DSGi, which owns PC World and Currys in the UK
    and has a number of well-known electrical store brands throughout Europe, is
    in the process of selling off its loss-making Electro World division."

    Vista death watch?

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | "The speed of time is one second per second"
    http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    08:20:01 up 26 days, 16:38, 1 user, load average: 1.52, 1.67, 1.63
    http://iuron.com - Open Source knowledge engine project
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  16. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    Rex Ballard writes:

    > On Nov 10, 8:37 am, Hadron wrote:
    >> William Poaster writes:
    >> > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:02:13 +0000, Homer wrote:

    >
    >> >> That, ladies and gentlemen, is racketeering, pure and simple.

    >>
    >> Garbage. People want Windows. The suppliers sell more PCs by including
    >> Windows. People simply do not want to install an OS. They have no need
    >> to and why should they. Hardcore geeks who want to can buy from another
    >> source or reinstall after.

    >
    > That's probably more in question right now. Apple is now about to
    > become #2 by dollar volume, and #1 in terms of profit. There are now


    Apple charge a lot for their HW.

    > a bunch of really upset PC makers who have been bleeding red ink over


    Who?


    > Vista, and if Obama doesn't enforce the clause of the Antitrust
    > Settlement telling Microsoft not to interfere with OEM's attempts to
    > sell competitor products like Linux - the OEMs very likely will. Acer
    > and ASUS have already gotten concessions from Microsoft by offering
    > "Linux-only" sub-notebook machines to the retail market. Microsoft


    You have proof of course?

    > gave them XP Home edition, but even then, they are selling more of the
    > Linux machines than they ever expected.


    The success of netbooks is great. They sell more Windows ones of course
    but Linux on them can only be good.

    >
    > More and more companies are switching more and more corporate
    > workstations to Linux - usually starting with Point of Service systems
    > then Call Center systems and eventually managers and executives. The


    Would you like to prove this? I know few if any Linux based POS
    solutions. Siebel did indeed support Linux in Siebel 8 but uptake has
    been very low on all but the server side.

    > Retailers are fed up too. CompUSA went bankrupt and had to close down
    > almost all of their retail stores. Circuit City just filed for
    > bankruptcy and is also likely to have to close down many of it's
    > stores, if not all. The PC has been a horrible loss engine,
    > ESPECIALLY since the release of Vista.


    And selling Linux would have done what exactly to help them?

    >
    >> >> Hardon obviously doesn't like choice, because he supports this
    >> >> racket.

    >
    >> I support giving people what they want. And why I was so pleased to see
    >> DELL offer a Linux solution.

    >
    > The problem is that, especially in the United States, you can't
    > actually walk into a retail store and get a hands-on experience of
    > Linux on that Dell.


    Because not enough people want it for reasons well documented. lets
    look:

    no MS Office
    no Games (give or take)
    poor Linux track record with Wireless

    these are real reasons. People like Willy Poaster saying it all "just
    worked" 10 years ago have queered the pitch.

    > It was a huge breakthrough to have ASUS and ACER sub-notebooks on
    > retail shelves during back-to-school season. ASUS reported that 60%
    > of the EEEs sold were Linux versions. When people actually get a


    You are telling lies or being sneaky at best. Please be more specific
    with time period.

    > first-hand experience of Linux, it's new, different, but not so
    > horrible that they couldn't consider using it at all.


    The netbooks shipping with Linux can only be good.

    >
    > What the OEMs and Retailers REALLY want, is the same deal Apple gets,
    > the ability to ship machines with *nix AND Windows, using parallels or
    > something equally practical and cheap.


    Which is a shame that Wine is so ghastly.


  17. Re: Why Windows Being Bad is Good for Microsoft (or a Case for Unbundling)

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Rex Ballard belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Nov 10, 8:37 am, Hadron wrote:
    >> William Poaster writes:
    >> > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 05:02:13 +0000, Homer wrote:

    >
    >> >> That, ladies and gentlemen, is racketeering, pure and simple.

    >>
    >> Garbage. People want Windows.


    No. They want whatever is installed.

    >> The suppliers sell more PCs by including
    >> Windows. People simply do not want to install an OS. They have no need
    >> to and why should they. Hardcore geeks who want to can buy from another
    >> source or reinstall after.

    >
    > That's probably more in question right now. Apple is now about to
    > become #2 by dollar volume, and #1 in terms of profit. There are now
    > a bunch of really upset PC makers who have been bleeding red ink over
    > Vista, and if Obama doesn't enforce the clause of the Antitrust
    > Settlement telling Microsoft not to interfere with OEM's attempts to
    > sell competitor products like Linux - the OEMs very likely will. Acer
    > and ASUS have already gotten concessions from Microsoft by offering
    > "Linux-only" sub-notebook machines to the retail market. Microsoft
    > gave them XP Home edition, but even then, they are selling more of the
    > Linux machines than they ever expected.


    XP Home is /crap/.

    >> >> Hardon obviously doesn't like choice, because he supports this
    >> >> racket.

    >
    >> I support giving people what they want. And why I was so pleased to see
    >> DELL offer a Linux solution.

    >
    > The problem is that, especially in the United States, you can't
    > actually walk into a retail store and get a hands-on experience of
    > Linux on that Dell.


    Indeed. That will change.

    --
    "If value corrupts then absolute value corrupts absolutely."

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