Another "downgrade" to XP - Linux

This is a discussion on Another "downgrade" to XP - Linux ; After takin' a swig o' grog, Ezekiel belched out this bit o' wisdom: >> You're right that some people have a good eXPerience, but I haven't. > > The same can probably be said with Linux experiences. People who use ...

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Thread: Another "downgrade" to XP

  1. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Ezekiel belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    >> You're right that some people have a good eXPerience, but I haven't.

    >
    > The same can probably be said with Linux experiences. People who use Linux
    >
    > all of the time are bound to have a better experience by virtue of their
    >
    > familiarity with the OS and their ability to configure it as they want.
    >
    > People who use Windows often can't configure their Linux systems as well
    >
    > as you but they can likely configure their XP setup to suit them better.
    >
    > Horses for courses.


    I tend to agree.

    I couldn't stand to read all of your post, though, with all that
    double-spacing. What's up with your news-reader?

    --
    ONE: I will donate my entire "BABY HUEY" comic book collection to
    the downtown PLASMA CENTER ...
    TWO: I won't START a BAND called "KHADAFY & THE HIT SQUAD" ...
    THREE: I won't ever TUMBLE DRY my FOX TERRIER again!!

  2. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    Chris Ahlstrom writes:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Steve Townsend belched out
    > this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> Chris Ahlstrom writes:
    >>
    >>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Hadron II belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Oh I see. You get corrected on your mistakes and then have a hissy
    >> fit. You appear to be at home here. Enjoy your strutting.

    >
    > Dude, I do not intend to perform "Hadron, the Sequel".
    >
    > Buh-bye.
    >
    > Idiot.


    Why not address the issues? You should thank me for correcting
    you. Going through life telling lies and refusing to learn is not a good
    way to live.


  3. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP


    "Chris Ahlstrom" wrote in message
    newsTDQk.62803$vX2.54337@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Ezekiel belched out
    > this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >>> You're right that some people have a good eXPerience, but I haven't.

    >>
    >> The same can probably be said with Linux experiences. People who use
    >> Linux
    >>
    >> all of the time are bound to have a better experience by virtue of their
    >>
    >> familiarity with the OS and their ability to configure it as they want.
    >>
    >> People who use Windows often can't configure their Linux systems as well
    >>
    >> as you but they can likely configure their XP setup to suit them better.
    >>
    >> Horses for courses.

    >
    > I tend to agree.
    >
    > I couldn't stand to read all of your post, though, with all that
    > double-spacing. What's up with your news-reader?


    I did a copy and paste of my post from an emacs buffer and something weird
    happened. Is this better?



    "Chris Ahlstrom" wrote in message
    newsVBQk.62274$rD2.52867@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Ezekiel belched out
    > this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> "Chris Ahlstrom" wrote in message
    >>
    >>> You must have missed my posts (and posts of others) where we note that
    >>> some people just prefer Windows XP, for whatever reasons -- inertia,
    >>> familiarity, games, access to Windows-only sites....

    >>
    >> Whoah! You mean that some people actually make a choice to use Windows.
    >> In
    >> COLAville it sure seems like people only make a "choice" when they use
    >> Linux
    >> and they are somehow forced/locked-in to using Windows.

    >
    > Well, that forced "choice" starts the ball rolling. In a normal market,
    > you'd have a variety of computer systems (remember the days of Tandy,
    > Atari, Commodore, Sinclair, along with the Macs and PCs) and more than one
    > Windows implementation (there used to be at three implementations of DOS,
    > for example -- Microsoft made sure that didn't happen with Windows).


    I don't see this as being specific to computers. At one time there were
    dozens of US car manufacturers, aircraft companies, etc. It's natural for
    markets to coalesce towards a leader. It was bound to eventually happen
    with OS's to some extent and MS happened to be the beneficiary of this.

    "Standardizing" has been a double-edged sword however. There are the obvious
    issues with MS having too much power and influence but there have been some
    positive benefits as well. It's nice having standards for things and the
    growth of the computer industry since the inception of MS is a testimony to
    this. The price of computers, software, hardware and storage has benefited
    from the economies of scale.


    >>> I've never had a really exciting eXPerience (in fact, the product lets
    >>> me
    >>> down with surprising regularity), but others apparently have.

    >>
    >> Just curious... how exactly does XP let you down regularly? I use XP,
    >> Linux,
    >> Solaris, AIX, HP/UX and to a lesser degree some other OSs. From a
    >> development perspective Win32 is more of a pain simply because the API is
    >> different from the Unix's. Not necessarily better or worse but just
    >> different so the lower layers (mostly IO stuff) needs to be #ifdef's
    >> specifically for Win32. But from a user perspective (what most people
    >> will
    >> see) there really isn't all that much to complain about.

    >
    > Are you kidding? First off, XP is /slow/. On every machine I've ever
    > used
    > it on.


    I don't experience this at all. First of all XP was designed for CPU's and
    memory configurations that existed some 8-years ago. Give XP a reasonably
    new system and it runs very quickly. I actually find that XP runs faster
    than most Linux installs. (Compared to something like Ubuntu - not DSL.)

    If I open a console or a web-browser on XP it's pretty much instantaneous.
    When I do the same thing on Linux there's a short but noticable delay.

    > Second, Windows Explorer is an abomination on some machines, giving
    > a minutes-long hourglass at the very same time I can go to a DOS or Cygwin
    > xterm and complete the desired file operation.


    I do most of my file ops from a console (Cygwin) but when I do use Explorer
    I don't notice any minutes-long hourglasses. Nothing even close.

    > Then there's the quixotic
    > and variable responses to plugging in a USB stick.


    I've always found that weird as well. I don't know if that's an artifact
    from the way it was implemented or a design goal. If it's the later then I'd
    be interested in what the rationale for this was.


    > We currently use only DELLs at work, and every laptop of the same model
    > acts
    > a little different, some working okay, some giving period troubles, such
    > as
    > not enabling networking automatically. On a slow laptop, the DOS console
    > is
    > fast -- but on fast desktop machine I used, the same DOS console is slow
    > as
    > hell at text-scrolling. Why?


    No idea why. At home and work all of the XP installs I've used run fine.
    It's usually different for neighbors and relatives because they tend to
    install way too much ****e on their system. The little 'tray' in the
    botton-right of the screen (by the clock) has about a dozen or so useless
    apps that they installed. Then there's all sorts of media-bars and other
    crap that they installed which bogs down the system.


    > Then there's the malware issue. I haven't been bitten by that one lately,
    > because I use Windows only on a sequestered network managed by NMCI, and
    > now
    > update religiously -- even though I've been bitten by Microsoft Windows
    > updates that have altered (for example) my multiple-monitor support.


    No malware here either. As far as "updates" altering configurations such as
    multi-monitor support... Linux isn't significantly different. There are just
    too many possible configurations out there and it's not going to be perfect
    every time regardless of what the OS is.


    > No workable multiple desktops, slow networking, a paucity of window
    > managers, krufty apps meant to try to replace functionality that Windows
    > lacks, a proprietary remote GUI protocol....


    The lack of multiple desktops isn't a valid argument IMO. You can nitpick
    the details if you want but it's there for Windows if you want it. The
    network tests that I've seen on the LAN at home and work don't show any
    differences in speed. If anything I find that networking on Windows takes
    less CPU resources than Linux most likely because the manufacturers do a
    better job of optimizing the Windows drivers for the card/chipset.


    > Then there's Visual Studio. A pretty fast, decent compiler with a good
    > debugger, but slow as hell at dependency-checking, with a crappy text
    > editor.


    The debugger in Visual Studio is better than just good. One thing that I
    like is the ability to configure it to display classes and structs the way
    you want when you "mouse-over" a variable or add it to a watch window. You
    can always expand the class/struct/union to view the whole thing but being
    able to customize how it's initially displayed is very nice.

    The ability to do things like debug an application and then be able to step
    into (and debug) a stored procedure in a database is unmatched by things
    like GDB.


    > And then our corporate guys think it is nice to give us access to
    > corporate
    > "virtual drives", so that I have to fire up VPN (or go through a web
    > interface) to access a freakin' "G:" drive using CIFS over the internet.
    > Ye
    > gods, how slow can you get?


    That's a configuration issue with your IT guys. You can't blame MS for that
    one.


    > And then there's our Win 2003-based systems! Oy!
    >
    > But, damn you, you've got me ranting far beyond XP at this point,
    > so I'm shutting up.


    Not for long I bet.


    > You're right that some people have a good eXPerience, but I haven't.


    The same can probably be said with Linux experiences. People who use Linux
    all of the time are bound to have a better experience by virtue of their
    familiarity with the OS and their ability to configure it as they want.
    People who use Windows often can't configure their Linux systems as well as
    you but they can likely configure their XP setup to suit them better.

    Horses for courses.



  4. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    Ezekiel wrote:
    > It's natural for markets
    > to
    >
    > coalesce towards a leader.


    Monopoly is good now huh?

  5. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP


    "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    message news:tb6dnbDaB6rRj47UnZ2dnUVZ8tbinZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    > Ezekiel wrote:
    >> It's natural for markets to
    >>
    >> coalesce towards a leader.

    >
    > Monopoly is good now huh?


    Could you possibly take my post any further out of context. Did this
    paragraph I posted have too many "big words" for you to understand?


    "Standardizing" has been a double-edged sword however. There are the obvious
    issues with MS having too much power and influence but there have been some
    positive benefits as well. It's nice having standards for things and the
    growth of the computer industry since the inception of MS is a testimony to
    this. The price of computers, software, hardware and storage has benefited
    from the economies of scale.




  6. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    Hadron II quacked:

    >Are you stupid or merely sick?


    Typical quack.

    >I also know that your Xp experiences are down to crap
    >administration or an idiot using it. After your reply there I can only
    >assume the later.


    Who do you think is the intended market for Micro$oft Windwoes?


  7. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    Ezekiel wrote:
    > "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    > message news:tb6dnbDaB6rRj47UnZ2dnUVZ8tbinZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    >> Ezekiel wrote:
    >>> It's natural for markets to
    >>>
    >>> coalesce towards a leader.

    >> Monopoly is good now huh?

    >
    > Could you possibly take my post any further out of context. Did this
    > paragraph I posted have too many "big words" for you to understand?
    >



    "It's natural for markets to coalesce towards a leader"


    No. It's neither natural, or desirable.

  8. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    On Nov 6, 10:17 am, "DFS" wrote:
    > Rex Ballard wrote:
    > > Ballmer has tried to claim that "Windows 7 will fix
    > > Vista",


    > Where did he say this?


    More like Windows 7 will be better than Vista - (faster? more secure?
    more reliable? better 3rd party support?)

    Vista was supposed to be "Better" than XP - it was more secure than XP
    with no 3rd party software - but all Microsoft did was try to extend
    the monopoly. On the other hand, it was much slower, needed much more
    memory, much more CPU, and much more hard drive storage, it also needs
    faster hard drives (7200 RPM SATA vs 5400 EIDE).

    XP was supposed to be better than Windows 2000 - it was supposed to be
    more secure - with no 3rd party software, but license restrictions,
    lack of installation media, security issues, and vulnerability to
    ActiveX attacks made XP the first "Disposable Computer". Most
    companies would simply swap out defective computers without even
    trying to recover them on site. The defective machines would be re-
    imaged at the "repair center". Consumers were pretty much left
    swinging in the breeze. Microsoft did eventually allow users to use
    the XP Professional Upgrade kit media to re-install XP on corrupted
    drives - but you had to buy the disk and if you hit the 3 install
    limit, you had to call Microsoft to have them unlock it for you.

    Windows 2000 was MUCH better than NT 4.0 - much faster kernel, much
    more reliable, more secure, efficient, excellent USB support, FireWire
    support - a very nice system - one of Microsoft's best ever.
    Installed from a single CD, and was easy to recover. It also ran well
    on NT 4.0 machines. It also runs very well on very small Virtual
    machines - as little as 64 megabytes of RAM, and as little as 4 gig of
    hard drive (which still gives you lots of room for applications).

    > > Acer, ASUS, and
    > > Lenovo have been aggressively marketing "No OS" machines


    > Show us. I've never seen an Acer website that didn't recommend Windows
    > Vista. And Lenovo recently signed a $1.2 billion deal with Microsoft.


    I've been seeing "No OS" machines in Europe, the Middle East, and
    Asia.

    Anybody have an update on South America?


  9. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    chrisv wrote:
    > Hadron II quacked:
    >
    >> Are you stupid or merely sick?

    >
    > Typical quack.


    Quite amusing double standards really. Whenever someone has trouble with
    windows it's because they are stupid. Nothing to do with microsoft,
    hardware or crap drivers. On the other wintroll foot, any bad experience
    in ubuntu forums has to be posted here - repeatedly - as evidence of the
    "crapware".

  10. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Ezekiel belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > I did a copy and paste of my post from an emacs buffer and something weird
    > happened. Is this better?


    Mucho!

    > I don't see this as being specific to computers. At one time there were
    > dozens of US car manufacturers, aircraft companies, etc. It's natural for
    > markets to coalesce towards a leader. It was bound to eventually happen
    > with OS's to some extent and MS happened to be the beneficiary of this.


    True for computers. But for cars, there are still plenty of choices out
    there.

    > "Standardizing" has been a double-edged sword however. There are the obvious
    > issues with MS having too much power and influence but there have been some
    > positive benefits as well. It's nice having standards for things and the
    > growth of the computer industry since the inception of MS is a testimony to
    > this. The price of computers, software, hardware and storage has benefited
    > from the economies of scale.


    Not sure I agree. The Ataris and Commodores were cheaper than PCs in
    general, even while being as powerful or more powerful.

    For awhile, until real competition from Linux and Apple kicked in, PCs were
    pretty expensive (at least laptops, anyway). Now prices are plummetting, in
    part because Microsoft has been compelled to cut some real deals.

    > I don't experience this at all. First of all XP was designed for CPU's and
    > memory configurations that existed some 8-years ago. Give XP a reasonably
    > new system and it runs very quickly. I actually find that XP runs faster
    > than most Linux installs. (Compared to something like Ubuntu - not DSL.)


    I'm talking about 1.86 GHz 1 Gb laptops and 2.8 GHz 1 Gb desktops, the
    former with a Pentium M, the latter with a Pentium 4.

    > If I open a console or a web-browser on XP it's pretty much instantaneous.


    Not in my experience. On the desktop mentioned above: many seconds for
    firefox, a second for IE. For both, doing it the second time is faster by
    far.

    > When I do the same thing on Linux there's a short but noticable delay.


    Of course.

    > I do most of my file ops from a console (Cygwin) but when I do use Explorer
    > I don't notice any minutes-long hourglasses. Nothing even close.


    Well, I've gotten it to occur on every DELL Latitude D510 I've ever used.

    > No idea why. At home and work all of the XP installs I've used run fine.
    > It's usually different for neighbors and relatives because they tend to
    > install way too much ****e on their system. The little 'tray' in the
    > botton-right of the screen (by the clock) has about a dozen or so useless
    > apps that they installed. Then there's all sorts of media-bars and other
    > crap that they installed which bogs down the system.


    The laptop above has a lot of tray crap, but its DOS console is much faster
    than the one on the faster machine!

    > No malware here either. As far as "updates" altering configurations such as
    > multi-monitor support... Linux isn't significantly different. There are just
    > too many possible configurations out there and it's not going to be perfect
    > every time regardless of what the OS is.


    I tend to agree with that one.

    > The lack of multiple desktops isn't a valid argument IMO. You can nitpick
    > the details if you want but it's there for Windows if you want it. The
    > network tests that I've seen on the LAN at home and work don't show any
    > differences in speed. If anything I find that networking on Windows takes
    > less CPU resources than Linux most likely because the manufacturers do a
    > better job of optimizing the Windows drivers for the card/chipset.


    I can't agree with that one.

    > The debugger in Visual Studio is better than just good. One thing that I
    > like is the ability to configure it to display classes and structs the way
    > you want when you "mouse-over" a variable or add it to a watch window. You
    > can always expand the class/struct/union to view the whole thing but being
    > able to customize how it's initially displayed is very nice.


    You haven't seen how DDD graphically displays linked data structures, then.

    The control of what is display in VS is nice, though.

    > The ability to do things like debug an application and then be able to step
    > into (and debug) a stored procedure in a database is unmatched by things
    > like GDB.


    Cool stuff. I assume it works only with Microsoft's database?

    >> And then our corporate guys think it is nice to give us access to
    >> corporate
    >> "virtual drives", so that I have to fire up VPN (or go through a web
    >> interface) to access a freakin' "G:" drive using CIFS over the internet.
    >> Ye gods, how slow can you get?

    >
    > That's a configuration issue with your IT guys. You can't blame MS for that
    > one.


    Sure I can. It's the verbose CIFS protocol, I would bet.

    > The same can probably be said with Linux experiences. People who use Linux
    > all of the time are bound to have a better experience by virtue of their
    > familiarity with the OS and their ability to configure it as they want.
    > People who use Windows often can't configure their Linux systems as well as
    > you but they can likely configure their XP setup to suit them better.
    >
    > Horses for courses.


    Not quite. I've used both pretty heavily, and you know my preference.

    --
    Did you know that the voice tapes easily identify the Russian pilot
    that shot down the Korean jet? At one point he definitely states:
    "Natasha! First we shoot jet, then we go after moose and squirrel."
    -- ihuxw!tommyo

  11. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    After takin' a swig o' grog, chrisv belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Hadron II quacked:
    >
    >>Are you stupid or merely sick?

    >
    > Typical quack.
    >
    >>I also know that your Xp experiences are down to crap
    >>administration or an idiot using it. After your reply there I can only
    >>assume the later.

    >
    > Who do you think is the intended market for Micro$oft Windwoes?


    Pretty funny. A stock XP install has issues, and this dude blames the user.
    Which is it: Windows is so easy a caveman can use it, or it is easy for the
    user to screw it up?

    Hadron II is quite the specimen isn't he?

    If I may be allowed to alliterate:

    Marching Microsoft morons munching the monopoly mantra are a mill a
    million.

    And so many of them seem to combine a broomstick-up-the-ass arrogance with
    the thickness of a blood pudding.

    --
    A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you
    actually look forward to the trip.
    -- Caskie Stinnett, "Out of the Red"

  12. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP


    "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    message news:A8CdneP27Kich47UnZ2dnUVZ8uSdnZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    > Ezekiel wrote:
    >> "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    >> message news:tb6dnbDaB6rRj47UnZ2dnUVZ8tbinZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    >>> Ezekiel wrote:
    >>>> It's natural for markets to
    >>>>
    >>>> coalesce towards a leader.
    >>> Monopoly is good now huh?

    >>
    >> Could you possibly take my post any further out of context. Did this
    >> paragraph I posted have too many "big words" for you to understand?
    >>

    >
    >
    > "It's natural for markets to coalesce towards a leader"
    >

    >
    > No. It's neither natural, or desirable.


    I never said it was desirable so keep your words out of my mouth. What I
    *did* say is that it's not all bad and that there are /some/ benefits to the
    consumer.

    As far as being natural - clearly not natural as something that happens in
    "nature" but a natural progression in the business sense. Look how many CPU
    manufacturers there were a short time ago. Cyrix, AMD, Intel, Motorola 68k,
    Weitek, NEX V20/V30, NexGen Nx586, etc. And look... the market coalesce to
    the leaders in the industry.

    Or take hard disk drive manufacturers. At one time there were Tandon,
    Quantum, DEC, Conner, Maxtor, Miniscribe, IBM, Komag, etc. Who's left now?

    Going outside of the computer field look at television manufactures or
    washing machines or airlines or whatever else. In most any mature market
    you'll see the same thing happen over the lifetime of a technology. There's
    the initial introduction of a product followed by several 'copy-cat'
    companies who want to get into the market segment. Over time the weaker
    players die off and the market for the product or service coalesces towards
    the few strong leaders.

    Learn something about actual business and history instead of making up stuff
    and spewing nonsense statements.








  13. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP


    "Rex Ballard" wrote in message
    news:69ed93d3-6fa8-4941-a8f1-146c6f7c089c@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
    > On Nov 6, 10:17 am, "DFS" wrote:
    >> Rex Ballard wrote:
    >> > Ballmer has tried to claim that "Windows 7 will fix
    >> > Vista",

    >
    >> Where did he say this?

    >
    > ...Anybody have an update on South America?
    >

    You use a lot of words to say "Well, I made all that up!"


  14. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    Ezekiel wrote:
    > "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    > message news:A8CdneP27Kich47UnZ2dnUVZ8uSdnZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    >> Ezekiel wrote:
    >>> "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    >>> message news:tb6dnbDaB6rRj47UnZ2dnUVZ8tbinZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    >>>> Ezekiel wrote:
    >>>>> It's natural for markets to
    >>>>>
    >>>>> coalesce towards a leader.
    >>>> Monopoly is good now huh?
    >>> Could you possibly take my post any further out of context. Did this
    >>> paragraph I posted have too many "big words" for you to understand?
    >>>

    >>
    >> "It's natural for markets to coalesce towards a leader"
    >>

    >>
    >> No. It's neither natural, or desirable.

    >
    > I never said it was desirable so keep your words out of my mouth. What I


    Did I say you did? Could have sworn I didn't. *I* said it wasn't
    desirable. I think you'll find what I said you said inside the quote,
    which is indeed what you said.


    > say is that it's *not all bad* and that there are /some/ benefits to the
    > consumer.


    And mothers of murderers maintain they're "not all bad" too.


    > As far as being natural - clearly not natural as something that happens in
    > "nature" but a natural progression in the business sense. Look how many CPU
    > manufacturers there were a short time ago. Cyrix, AMD, Intel, Motorola 68k,
    > Weitek, NEX V20/V30, NexGen Nx586, etc. And look... the market coalesce to
    > the leaders in the industry.


    Ever heard of wintel? And that would be "monopolists". Not quite the
    same as "leaders". Go ask AMD about level playing fields.


    > Learn something about actual business and history instead of making up stuff
    > and spewing nonsense statements.


    Ha! The irony. "The natural state of a market is to coalesce to a single
    leader". Classic. Like Hardon, you seem to think markets have only one
    side of importance.

  15. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP


    "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    message news:rcKdnYtt58Yfu47UnZ2dnUVZ8uOdnZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    > Ezekiel wrote:
    >> "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    >> message news:A8CdneP27Kich47UnZ2dnUVZ8uSdnZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    >>> Ezekiel wrote:
    >>>> "Phil Da Lick!" wrote in
    >>>> message news:tb6dnbDaB6rRj47UnZ2dnUVZ8tbinZ2d@posted.plusn et...
    >>>>> Ezekiel wrote:
    >>>>>> It's natural for markets to
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> coalesce towards a leader.
    >>>>> Monopoly is good now huh?
    >>>> Could you possibly take my post any further out of context. Did this
    >>>> paragraph I posted have too many "big words" for you to understand?
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> "It's natural for markets to coalesce towards a leader"
    >>>

    >>>
    >>> No. It's neither natural, or desirable.

    >>
    >> I never said it was desirable so keep your words out of my mouth. What I

    >
    > Did I say you did? Could have sworn I didn't. *I* said it wasn't
    > desirable. I think you'll find what I said you said inside the quote,
    > which is indeed what you said.


    Your response implied that I said this.



    >> say is that it's *not all bad* and that there are /some/ benefits to the
    >> consumer.

    >
    > And mothers of murderers maintain they're "not all bad" too.


    Irrelevant to the discussion.


    >> As far as being natural - clearly not natural as something that happens
    >> in "nature" but a natural progression in the business sense. Look how
    >> many CPU manufacturers there were a short time ago. Cyrix, AMD, Intel,
    >> Motorola 68k, Weitek, NEX V20/V30, NexGen Nx586, etc. And look... the
    >> market coalesce to the leaders in the industry.

    >
    > Ever heard of wintel? And that would be "monopolists". Not quite the same
    > as "leaders". Go ask AMD about level playing fields.


    But "Wintel" are the leaders in this market segment. Interesting how you
    snipped the examples I gave of the exact same thing happening in other
    industries:


    Or take hard disk drive manufacturers. At one time there were Tandon,
    Quantum, DEC, Conner, Maxtor, Miniscribe, IBM, Komag, etc. Who's left now?

    Going outside of the computer field look at television manufactures or
    washing machines or airlines or whatever else. In most any mature market
    you'll see the same thing happen over the lifetime of a technology. There's
    the initial introduction of a product followed by several 'copy-cat'
    companies who want to get into the market segment. Over time the weaker
    players die off and the market for the product or service coalesces towards
    the few strong leaders.



    >> Learn something about actual business and history instead of making up
    >> stuff and spewing nonsense statements.

    >
    > Ha! The irony. "The natural state of a market is to coalesce to a single
    > leader". Classic. Like Hardon, you seem to think markets have only one
    > side of importance.


    Still having reading comprehension. Not a surprise given the ignorance of
    your replies. Since you quoted that "The natural state of the market is to
    coalesce to a SINGLE leader" I suppose you can show where I said this. Oh
    that's right... I never did say this. You are falsely quoting something and
    attributing it to me like a dishonest scumbag.



  16. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    > Ezekiel belched:
    >>
    >> I don't see this as being specific to computers. At one time there were
    >> dozens of US car manufacturers, aircraft companies, etc. It's natural for
    >> markets to coalesce towards a leader. It was bound to eventually happen
    >> with OS's to some extent and MS happened to be the beneficiary of this.


    There's a totally different dynamic in the OS market, far more
    favorable to the "market leader" than what happens in other markets.
    There is, of course, the "software compatability" thing. Then there's
    the "training" thing on top of that - I don't need to learn much new
    if I switch brands of car.

    There are understandable reasons why M$ has the enviable market-share
    they have today. (Unlike what some mentally-ill trolls might suggest,
    the reason is NOT that the alternatives are inferior to the M$
    products.)

    >> "Standardizing" has been a double-edged sword however. There are the obvious
    >> issues with MS having too much power and influence but there have been some
    >> positive benefits as well. It's nice having standards for things and the
    >> growth of the computer industry since the inception of MS is a testimony to
    >> this. The price of computers, software, hardware and storage has benefited
    >> from the economies of scale.


    Yes, there are benefits to having a defacto-standard OS. However,
    that model has the unfortunate drawbacks of technical stagnation,
    price-gouging, and lack of freedom and choice.

    The Internet, enabling Web applications and efficient distribution of
    software, is obsoleting the benefits of the one big defacto-standard
    OS. There are still some software and data compatibility issues to
    resolve, and there is still a lot of sheer momentum, but those
    problems will yield as well.


  17. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP


    "chrisv" wrote in message
    news:cf96h4h5g9kflmijgfgdkffnfj7cpbhp5v@4ax.com...
    >> Ezekiel belched:
    >>>
    >>> I don't see this as being specific to computers. At one time there were
    >>> dozens of US car manufacturers, aircraft companies, etc. It's natural
    >>> for
    >>> markets to coalesce towards a leader. It was bound to eventually happen
    >>> with OS's to some extent and MS happened to be the beneficiary of this.

    >
    > There's a totally different dynamic in the OS market, far more
    > favorable to the "market leader" than what happens in other markets.
    > There is, of course, the "software compatability" thing. Then there's
    > the "training" thing on top of that - I don't need to learn much new
    > if I switch brands of car.


    Yes and no. For something like re-learning to drive if you switch cars then
    obviously not. But if you have invested in a lot of aftermarket parts (rims,
    tires, specialty tools, etc) then it's a bit more difficult.

    The example that I see all of the time are high end digital SLR cameras.
    Once you get a Nikon or Cannon and invest in all of the lenses and filters
    then there's a definite amount of "lock-in" to staying with that brand.


    > There are understandable reasons why M$ has the enviable market-share
    > they have today. (Unlike what some mentally-ill trolls might suggest,
    > the reason is NOT that the alternatives are inferior to the M$
    > products.)


    I've never said or implied that it's because of any fault with Linux.
    Sure... there are some areas where Linux needs improvement but it's
    certainly not "inferior" in any way. The success of Windows over Linux in
    the consumer segment is most certainly a market phenomenon rather than a
    technical one.



    >>> "Standardizing" has been a double-edged sword however. There are the
    >>> obvious
    >>> issues with MS having too much power and influence but there have been
    >>> some
    >>> positive benefits as well. It's nice having standards for things and the
    >>> growth of the computer industry since the inception of MS is a testimony
    >>> to
    >>> this. The price of computers, software, hardware and storage has
    >>> benefited
    >>> from the economies of scale.

    >
    > Yes, there are benefits to having a defacto-standard OS. However,
    > that model has the unfortunate drawbacks of technical stagnation,
    > price-gouging, and lack of freedom and choice.


    I'll bite (not fully buy) on the price-gouging because Microsoft doesn't
    have the price elasticity people thinks it does. Technical stragnation - the
    advancements made by Apple/Mac and Linux pretty much nullify that idea. Lack
    of freedom and choice - EVERY company does things to hold on to their
    customers.



    > The Internet, enabling Web applications and efficient distribution of
    > software, is obsoleting the benefits of the one big defacto-standard
    > OS.


    It's natural that it would. Look up 'product life cycle management' someday
    and you'll find that it's well established of how a product life-cycle
    works. MS is clearly past the 'mature stage' where the product begins to
    stagnate and eventually fade away. The lifespan of a product will vary
    because something like 8-track players didn't last very long but still
    followed the same predictable pattern. MS is no different and software will
    also follow the historically established product lifecycle patterns.


    > There are still some software and data compatibility issues to
    > resolve, and there is still a lot of sheer momentum, but those
    > problems will yield as well.


    They always yield eventually. It's the nature of the beast and that's why MS
    is attempting to venture out into other areas like search, Zune, gaming,
    etc. Part of this is to increase revenue (less than 1/2 of MS revenue comes
    from Windows+Office) but it's also because all products (ie -
    Windows/Office) have a limited life-cyle.







  18. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 06 November 2008 16:25 : \____

    >
    >
    > On Nov 6, 10:17 am, "DFS" wrote:
    >> Rex Ballard wrote:
    >> > Ballmer has tried to claim that "Windows 7 will fix
    >> > Vista",

    >
    >> Where did he say this?

    >
    > More like Windows 7 will be better than Vista - (faster? more secure?
    > more reliable? better 3rd party support?)


    He said that Windows 7 is like Vista, only improved. I couldn't find the exact
    quote, but I found:

    Ballmer: Vista Is 'a Work in Progress'

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | As PC users clamor for Microsoft to continue to support Windows XP, company
    | CEO Steve Ballmer called the Vista OS "a work in progress" at an annual
    | Seattle event on Thursday. Â*
    `----

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente..._progress.html


    Would you pay for a "Work in progress"?

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Sorry windows people. You have been gypped. You have been ripped off and had
    | your coffers emptied into the microsoft pockets. You have paid for the
    | privilege of using a final product but have been handed a work in progress.
    | In other words an unfinished product. Something that is not good enough to be
    | called final. Something with many problems and missing features (where is
    | that wonderful new file system?) If you were to buy anything, whether it is
    | hardware or software, especially if you are going to rely on it for a living.
    | Wouldn't you want it to be something other than "A work in progress"?
    `----

    http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/linux/loc...progress-23910


    Microsoft tries to avoid Ballmer deposition in Vista suit

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Microsoft Corp. Chief Executive Steve Ballmer is the subject of a new legal
    | squabble in a lawsuit over the company's Windows Vista marketing practices.
    `----

    http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/s...9/daily37.html

    > Vista was supposed to be "Better" than XP - it was more secure than XP
    > with no 3rd party software - but all Microsoft did was try to extend
    > the monopoly. On the other hand, it was much slower, needed much more
    > memory, much more CPU, and much more hard drive storage, it also needs
    > faster hard drives (7200 RPM SATA vs 5400 EIDE).
    >
    > XP was supposed to be better than Windows 2000 - it was supposed to be
    > more secure - with no 3rd party software, but license restrictions,
    > lack of installation media, security issues, and vulnerability to
    > ActiveX attacks made XP the first "Disposable Computer". Most
    > companies would simply swap out defective computers without even
    > trying to recover them on site. The defective machines would be re-
    > imaged at the "repair center". Consumers were pretty much left
    > swinging in the breeze. Microsoft did eventually allow users to use
    > the XP Professional Upgrade kit media to re-install XP on corrupted
    > drives - but you had to buy the disk and if you hit the 3 install
    > limit, you had to call Microsoft to have them unlock it for you.
    >
    > Windows 2000 was MUCH better than NT 4.0 - much faster kernel, much
    > more reliable, more secure, efficient, excellent USB support, FireWire
    > support - a very nice system - one of Microsoft's best ever.
    > Installed from a single CD, and was easy to recover. It also ran well
    > on NT 4.0 machines. It also runs very well on very small Virtual
    > machines - as little as 64 megabytes of RAM, and as little as 4 gig of
    > hard drive (which still gives you lots of room for applications).
    >
    >> > Acer, ASUS, and
    >> > Lenovo have been aggressively marketing "No OS" machines

    >
    >> Show us. I've never seen an Acer website that didn't recommend Windows
    >> Vista. And Lenovo recently signed a $1.2 billion deal with Microsoft.

    >
    > I've been seeing "No OS" machines in Europe, the Middle East, and
    > Asia.
    >
    > Anybody have an update on South America?


    Actually, they aggressively market Linux machines (except Lenovo) and Microsoft
    is trying to have their hands tied with payments and discounts it offers. It's
    pathetic.

    More evidence of Microsoft "tying up" the Asus EeePC

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Then, one of the makers of Netbooks will release a fantastic product using
    | the paid Ubuntu/Netbook Remix, which will make us all forget about the EeePC
    | — or, maybe we’ll remember it as one of the makers which used GNU/Linux in
    | order to launch a product, and then gave in to Microsoft’s pressure.
    |
    | The real question is: will the next maker manage to resist Microsoft’s
    | pressure? Or will everybody end up closely tied up with Microsoft?
    `----

    http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/...the_asus_eeepc


    Microsoft worried over Linux ULPCs

    ,----[ Quote
    | An un-named Microsoft official quoted in the original article claims that
    | manufacturers currently offering Linux on their low-cost devices “have made
    | some good inroads with open-source, and Microsoft wants to put a stop to it.”
    `----

    http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/05...-linux-ulpcs/1


    Feeling the heat at Microsoft

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | If I ask you who is Microsoft's biggest competitor now, who would it be?
    |
    | Ballmer: Open...Linux. I don't want to say open source. Linux, certainly have
    | to go with that.
    `----

    http://www.news.com/Feeling-the-heat...tag=ne.fd.mnbc


    Otellini: 'MID revolution will be centred round Linux'

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Intel CEO says Microsoft's insistence on pushing Vista will hand market to
    | open source rival
    |
    | Intel's CEO has said that he sees the revolution that is about to happen
    | around mobile internet devices (MID) such as the Eee PC and other Atom-based
    | sub-notebooks will be "centred round Linux", in an interview with Associated
    | Press.
    `----

    http://www.pcretailmag.com/news/2993...ed-round-Linux


    Acer bets big on Linux

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Acer has stated that it will be pushing Linux aggressively on its laptops and
    | netbooks.
    `----

    http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/22...hes-linux-hard


    Microsoft sees slide in profits

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7366106.stm



    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    "If the operating system is in fact a natural monopoly, then what could be
    better than having an operating system that nobody owns?"
    --James Love
    http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    19:05:01 up 22 days, 3:23, 1 user, load average: 1.85, 1.95, 1.90
    http://iuron.com - Open Source knowledge engine project
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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  19. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    Ezekiel wrote:
    >
    > "Chris Ahlstrom" wrote in message
    > newsTDQk.62803$vX2.54337@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Ezekiel belched out
    >> this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>>> You're right that some people have a good eXPerience, but I haven't.
    >>>
    >>> The same can probably be said with Linux experiences. People who use
    >>> Linux
    >>>
    >>> all of the time are bound to have a better experience by virtue of their
    >>>
    >>> familiarity with the OS and their ability to configure it as they want.
    >>>
    >>> People who use Windows often can't configure their Linux systems as well
    >>>
    >>> as you but they can likely configure their XP setup to suit them better.
    >>>
    >>> Horses for courses.

    >>
    >> I tend to agree.
    >>
    >> I couldn't stand to read all of your post, though, with all that
    >> double-spacing. What's up with your news-reader?

    >
    > I did a copy and paste of my post from an emacs buffer and something weird
    > happened. Is this better?
    >


    vi rules.


  20. Re: Another "downgrade" to XP

    After takin' a swig o' grog, owl belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Ezekiel wrote:
    >>
    >> I did a copy and paste of my post from an emacs buffer and something weird
    >> happened. Is this better?

    >
    > vi rules.


    Aye.

    --
    .... in three to eight years we will have a machine with the general
    intelligence of an average human being ... The machine will begin
    to educate itself with fantastic speed. In a few months it will be
    at genius level and a few months after that its powers will be
    incalculable ...
    -- Marvin Minsky, LIFE Magazine, November 20, 1970

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