Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux - Linux

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Thread: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

  1. Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.

    Instead buy more generic brands that works with more OSes.
    Save hours of grind getting things to work by checking
    web sites for harware compatibility.

    In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    Linux compatibility listed.

    http://hardware4linux.info/

    Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is safe.

    Places where Linux is free to download:

    http://www.livecdlist.com
    http://www.distrowatch.com
    http://www.ubuntu.com


  2. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:

    > Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.


    Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded with a
    Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.

  3. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:
    >
    >> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.

    >
    > Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded with a
    > Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.



    Then you must have no knowledge of PC hardware.
    Most mice, keyboards, card readers, etc are NOT branded
    with a WINDUMMY logo and they work fine with Linux.
    The ones that might have a WINDUMMY logo like webcams
    are most likely not to work with Linux.

    Hence it seems sensible to me to not buy any hardware with a Micoshaft logo
    on it.



  4. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    "7" wrote in message
    news:hN4Pk.81100$E41.29186@text.news.virginmedia.c om...
    > Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >
    > Instead buy more generic brands that works with more OSes.
    > Save hours of grind getting things to work by checking
    > web sites for harware compatibility.
    >
    > In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    > Linux compatibility listed.
    >
    > http://hardware4linux.info/
    >
    > Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is
    > safe.
    >
    > Places where Linux is free to download:
    >
    > http://www.livecdlist.com
    > http://www.distrowatch.com
    > http://www.ubuntu.com


    My MS optical mouse works fine with Ubuntu...



  5. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:49:02 GMT, 7 wrote:

    > Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ne wsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.straub-nv.de!feed.xsnews.nl!border-2.ams.xsnews.nl!69.16.177.242.MISMATCH!cyclone02.a ms!news.highwinds-media.com!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!tex t.news.virginmedia.com!53ab2750!not-for-mail
    > From: 7
    > Subject: Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux
    > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
    > References:
    > Lines: 20
    > User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2
    > MIME-Version: 1.0
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
    > Message-ID:
    > Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:49:02 GMT
    > NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.31.43.146
    > X-Complaints-To: http://netreport.virginmedia.com
    > X-Trace: text.news.virginmedia.com 1225583342 62.31.43.146 (Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:49:02 GMT)
    > NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:49:02 GMT
    > Bytes: 1758
    > Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1682079
    >
    > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >
    >> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:
    >>
    >>> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.

    >>
    >> Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded with a
    >> Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.

    >
    > Then you must have no knowledge of PC hardware.
    > Most mice, keyboards, card readers, etc are NOT branded
    > with a WINDUMMY logo and they work fine with Linux.
    > The ones that might have a WINDUMMY logo like webcams
    > are most likely not to work with Linux.
    >
    > Hence it seems sensible to me to not buy any hardware with a Micoshaft logo
    > on it.


    The only hardware, like mice, keyboard, and card readers, i've ever seen
    that didn't have a logo was stuff that didn't come in factory packaging.
    Virtually all of it does.

  6. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    Micoshaft asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Erik Funkenbusch
    wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Department of Marketing:


    > On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:49:02 GMT, 7 wrote:
    >
    >> Path:
    >>

    border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ne wsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.straub-nv.de!feed.xsnews.nl!border-2.ams.xsnews.nl
    69.16.177.242.MISMATCH!cyclone02.ams!news.highwind s-media.com!pe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk!blueyonder!tex t.news.virginmedia.com
    53ab2750!not-for-mail
    >> From: 7 Subject: Re: Don't buy
    >> Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux Newsgroups:
    >> comp.os.linux.advocacy References:
    >>
    >> Lines: 20 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2
    >> MIME-Version: 1.0
    >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
    >> Message-ID:
    >> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:49:02 GMT
    >> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.31.43.146
    >> X-Complaints-To: http://netreport.virginmedia.com
    >> X-Trace: text.news.virginmedia.com 1225583342 62.31.43.146 (Sat, 01 Nov
    >> 2008 23:49:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:49:02 GMT
    >> Bytes: 1758
    >> Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.os.linux.advocacy:1682079
    >>
    >> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >>>
    >>> Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded with a
    >>> Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.

    >>
    >> Then you must have no knowledge of PC hardware.
    >> Most mice, keyboards, card readers, etc are NOT branded
    >> with a WINDUMMY logo and they work fine with Linux.
    >> The ones that might have a WINDUMMY logo like webcams
    >> are most likely not to work with Linux.
    >>
    >> Hence it seems sensible to me to not buy any hardware with a Micoshaft
    >> logo on it.

    >
    > The only hardware, like mice, keyboard, and card readers, i've ever seen
    > that didn't have a logo was stuff that didn't come in factory packaging.



    So by tracing a few lines back, by your own clever admission, you are a
    liar.


    > Virtually all of it does.


    LIAR!


  7. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    After takin' a swig o' grog, 7 belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.


    Nah, 7, yer exaggeratin'. The kernel supports the Microsoft ergonomic
    keyboard:

    /var/log/messages:

    kernel: input: Microsoft Natural® Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 as /class/input/input8
    kernel: input: Microsoft Natural® Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 as /class/input/input9

    Of course, the sum-bitch's sprayed on key-labels are starting to wear out.
    Cheap crap.

    By the way, I'm not sure you and Funky are on the same page as to what
    "Microsoft branded" means.

    Erik seems to think any box that has the Windows logo on it is "Microsoft
    branded". He's such a dazed follower.

    --
    Yes, but will I see the EASTER BUNNY in skintight leather at an IRON
    MAIDEN concert?

  8. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    Sharp Dressed Man wrote:

    > "7" wrote in message
    > news:hN4Pk.81100$E41.29186@text.news.virginmedia.c om...
    >> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >>
    >> Instead buy more generic brands that works with more OSes.
    >> Save hours of grind getting things to work by checking
    >> web sites for harware compatibility.
    >>
    >> In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    >> Linux compatibility listed.
    >>
    >> http://hardware4linux.info/
    >>
    >> Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is
    >> safe.
    >>
    >> Places where Linux is free to download:
    >>
    >> http://www.livecdlist.com
    >> http://www.distrowatch.com
    >> http://www.ubuntu.com

    >
    > My MS optical mouse works fine with Ubuntu...


    The corporate micoshaft wireless keyboard doesn't.

    The home PC Logitech wireless ones work with Ubuntu fine.




  9. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
    On 2008-11-01, Sharp Dressed Man was urged to write the following:
    > "7" wrote in message
    > news:hN4Pk.81100$E41.29186@text.news.virginmedia.c om...
    >> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >>
    >> Instead buy more generic brands that works with more OSes.
    >> Save hours of grind getting things to work by checking
    >> web sites for harware compatibility.
    >>
    >> In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    >> Linux compatibility listed.
    >>
    >> http://hardware4linux.info/
    >>
    >> Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is
    >> safe.
    >>
    >> Places where Linux is free to download:
    >>
    >> http://www.livecdlist.com
    >> http://www.distrowatch.com
    >> http://www.ubuntu.com

    >
    > My MS optical mouse works fine with Ubuntu...


    As does my Microsoft "multimedia" keyboard. Which reminds me that I
    still have to replace the damn thing with a decent keyboard, one that
    doesn't have those silly "windows" keys.

    What an awfull "advocacy" post this is by the way. The mediocre
    hardware support under GNU/Linux has nothing to do with the fact that
    hardware is Microsoft branded or not. It is because hardware vendors
    don't put effort in developing - preferably open - drivers for
    GNU/Linux. It sucks, yes, but fortunately there are a lot of
    enthousiasts in the community willing to reverse engineer the hardware
    and write drivers for us. Better yet is trying to stick with
    Linux-friendly hardware as much as possible. Those vendors deserve our
    support.

    --
    My love life is terrible. The last time I was inside a woman was when I
    visited the Statue of Liberty.
    ~ Woody Allen

  10. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    7 wrote:
    > Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >
    > Instead buy more generic brands that works with more OSes.
    > Save hours of grind getting things to work by checking
    > web sites for harware compatibility.
    >
    > In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    > Linux compatibility listed.
    >
    > http://hardware4linux.info/
    >
    > Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is safe.
    >
    > Places where Linux is free to download:
    >
    > http://www.livecdlist.com
    > http://www.distrowatch.com
    > http://www.ubuntu.com
    >

    well duh.

    - --
    ________
    David M Lemcoe Jr.
    ender@ender.ath.cx
    Roswell, Georgia
    Running Ubuntu 8.0.10 "Intrepid Ibex"
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  11. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    Verily I say unto thee, that Erik Funkenbusch spake thusly:
    > On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:


    >> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.

    >
    > Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded with a
    > Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.


    Sorry to spoil your day again Erik, but...

    Thanks for confirming that Microsoft does indeed have a monopoly.

    For the benefit of those who may have missed the subtext, you are
    actually referring to WHQL/WLP certification, which most hardware
    vendors will undoubtedly want to participate in, or risk losing a
    vast portion of their market, because of that monopoly.

    However I think you may have overlooked something rather obvious.

    How many PPC Macs were "Certified for Windows", and How many PS3s
    (they'll run Linux though)? Heck, even the Xbox series cannot run
    Windows (but again, even *that* will run Linux). How many Netbook
    systems are in the WLP? Really, how many?

    You've surely been around long enough now to have seen many types
    of hardware architectures, most of which were not compatible with
    Windows, and there's new ones emerging all the time, like the new
    ARM-based Netbooks, for example. How many of *those* do you think
    will be "Certified for Windows"?

    Yet you claim that you have "never seen any hardware that was NOT
    branded with a Windows logo"?

    Sure about that?

    The /reality/ is that when it comes to multi-architecture support
    it's /Windows/ users who have the "slim pickins".

    Oh, and if you're looking for a Christmas present for the kids or
    grandkids this year, I recommend this:

    http://openpandora.org

    You might want to pick one up for yourself too (I know *I* will).

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    04:18:49 up 22 days, 14:14, 4 users, load average: 0.15, 0.13, 0.08

  12. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    On 2008-11-02, TomB wrote:
    > ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
    > On 2008-11-01, Sharp Dressed Man was urged to write the following:
    >> "7" wrote in message
    >> news:hN4Pk.81100$E41.29186@text.news.virginmedia.c om...
    >>> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >>>
    >>> Instead buy more generic brands that works with more OSes.
    >>> Save hours of grind getting things to work by checking
    >>> web sites for harware compatibility.
    >>>
    >>> In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    >>> Linux compatibility listed.
    >>>
    >>> http://hardware4linux.info/
    >>>
    >>> Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is
    >>> safe.
    >>>
    >>> Places where Linux is free to download:
    >>>
    >>> http://www.livecdlist.com
    >>> http://www.distrowatch.com
    >>> http://www.ubuntu.com

    >>
    >> My MS optical mouse works fine with Ubuntu...

    >
    > As does my Microsoft "multimedia" keyboard. Which reminds me that I
    > still have to replace the damn thing with a decent keyboard, one that
    > doesn't have those silly "windows" keys.


    I've got one of these. They work great, except all those extra useless
    buttons make the silly thing bigger than it should be.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  13. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:25:36 -0400, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:
    >
    >> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.

    >
    > Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded with a
    > Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.


    Is that like the 'Vista Ready' branded logos I see on new low cost pcs
    that would be lucky to run XP ?

    The same thing that's the subject of a class action suit against
    Microsoft ?



    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  14. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    > On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:
    >
    >> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.

    >
    > Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded with a
    > Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.


    See: Dell Computers.

  15. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    "7" schreef in bericht
    news:eD6Pk.81139$E41.57284@text.news.virginmedia.c om...
    > Sharp Dressed Man wrote:
    >
    >> "7" wrote in message
    >> news:hN4Pk.81100$E41.29186@text.news.virginmedia.c om...
    >>> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >>>
    >>> Instead buy more generic brands that works with more OSes.
    >>> Save hours of grind getting things to work by checking
    >>> web sites for harware compatibility.
    >>>
    >>> In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    >>> Linux compatibility listed.
    >>>
    >>> http://hardware4linux.info/
    >>>
    >>> Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is
    >>> safe.
    >>>
    >>> Places where Linux is free to download:
    >>>
    >>> http://www.livecdlist.com
    >>> http://www.distrowatch.com
    >>> http://www.ubuntu.com

    >>
    >> My MS optical mouse works fine with Ubuntu...

    >
    > The corporate micoshaft wireless keyboard doesn't.
    >
    > The home PC Logitech wireless ones work with Ubuntu fine.
    >


    You ****ing moronic tit!, "easy" ( lol !) as taking a ****!
    You can't do much in Ubutu without the use of a console, huh!

    sudo gedit /etc/bluetooth/hcid.conf
    You may be asked for your password, this is because we used sudo.
    At the end of the file, add the following (replacing KEYBOARD_ADDR and
    MOUSE_ADDR for the keyboard and mouse MAC addresses as found earlier)
    device KEYBOARD_ADDR {
    name "Microsoft Wireless Keyboard";
    auth enable;
    encrypt enable;
    }
    device MOUSE_ADDR {
    name "Microsoft Mouse";
    }
    Now you need to restart the bluetooth subsystem so that it refreshes it's
    configuration file.
    sudo /etc/init.d/bluez-utils restart
    * Restarting Bluetooth services. [ ok ]
    Pairing the Devices
    You now need to pair the devices with the computer. Do not press any buttons
    on the keyboard as we'll need to use it to enter a passcode so we can pair.
    Run the following command
    sudo hidd --search
    Searching .
    Connecting to device MOUSE_ADDR
    Connecting to device KEYBOARD_ADDR
    They could pair with the computer in any order, you will need to remember
    which one is the keyboard. As soon as Connecting to device KEYBOARD_ADDR
    appears you must enter a PIN code into the keyboard. It must consist of
    numbers not using the numpad, somewhere between 4 and 8 should be fine. Type
    this number in to the keyboard and press Return.
    A window should pop up on your computer asking you for the number you just
    entered on the keyboard.
    You should now be set up. The devices should automatically reconnect when
    they go to sleep and when your computer boots up.
    Troubleshooting
    If you have followed all the steps above and you find your mouse or keyboard
    don't automatically reconnect, we can fix it. Run the following command in a
    terminal
    sudo gedit /etc/default/bluez-utils
    Find the following lines
    HIDD_ENABLED=0
    HIDD_OPTIONS="."
    Change them to
    HIDD_ENABLED=1
    HIDD_OPTIONS="--master --connect KEYBOARD_ADDR --connect
    MOUSE_ADDR --server"
    Now reboot and hopefully they'll automatically connect (give them a few
    seconds to connect after you move the mouse/press a key).


  16. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    7 wrote in
    news:hN4Pk.81100$E41.29186@text.news.virginmedia.c om:

    > Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >

    Wrong. You need to set it up of course. That requires actual *reading*.
    Something a M$ drone apparently isn't capable of.

    http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Hardware-HOWTO/
    >
    > In particular as Linux is taking over, buy products with
    > Linux compatibility listed.
    >
    > http://hardware4linux.info/
    >
    > Thats one place where you can check if the hardware you plan buying is
    > safe.
    >

    Wrong, wrong, wrong:

    http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Hardware-HOWTO/index.html

    > Places where Linux is free to download:
    >
    > http://www.livecdlist.com
    > http://www.distrowatch.com
    > http://www.ubuntu.com
    >

    Wrong, wrong, wrong.
    Firstly:

    http://tldp.org/FAQ/Linux-FAQ/linux-distributions.html

    to find out *where* to get them - virtuall *any* ftp site BTW.

    For list of actual distributions *available:

    http://lwn.net/Distributions/

    Now what's left that was *right*? Oh yes, *nothing* must be another sock
    puppet of Tony's then.

    --
    (setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )

  17. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:19:05 +0000, Homer wrote:
    >
    >> Oh, and if you're looking for a Christmas present for the kids or
    >> grandkids this year, I recommend this:
    >>
    >> http://openpandora.org
    >>
    >> You might want to pick one up for yourself too (I know *I* will).

    >
    > That's kind of an odd device. It seems confused about it's market. a
    > 600Mhz processor suggest a PDA kind of functionality, but the inclusion of
    > a 24 bit LCD with OpenGL suggests gaming (not to mention the gaming
    > controls) but the CPU is too low spec to make it a useful gaming system
    > unless it has one hell of a GPU (which it doesn't mention the specs for,
    > though it does have a DSP which could lead to some interesting uses).
    >
    > I guess I could see it challenging the Nintendo DS market or the PSP
    > market, but both those devices have a better form factor than this
    > (particularly the PSP).
    >
    > And the real $64,000 question is, what can you run on it? Besides Vim and
    > Emacs?


    How powerful is it?

    It is by far the most powerful handheld in the world both in terms of raw
    CPU power and 3D graphics capability, it will be able to handle things
    such as Firefox3 or Quake3 with ease.

    And

    http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/20/p...are-linux-and/

    Pandora project demoed on video, shows off hardware, Linux, and Quake 2

    --
    If the odds are a million to one against something occurring, chances
    are 50-50 it will.

  18. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Gregory Shearman belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > On 2008-11-02, TomB wrote:
    >>>
    >>> My MS optical mouse works fine with Ubuntu...

    >>
    >> As does my Microsoft "multimedia" keyboard. Which reminds me that I
    >> still have to replace the damn thing with a decent keyboard, one that
    >> doesn't have those silly "windows" keys.

    >
    > I've got one of these. They work great, except all those extra useless
    > buttons make the silly thing bigger than it should be.


    And an incorrect keyboard split that puts "6" above "T" instead of above
    "Y".

    --
    has /usr/bin/emacs been put into /etc/shells yet? :P

  19. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 +0000, 7 aided th' terraists with the
    following claims :

    > Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux.
    >

    Thats silly. I use a micro$oft mouse with linux

    I like their mice...the OS...not so much.

    FYI
    HTH
    HAND

    --
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities,
    can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
    http://i35.tinypic.com/2czc1ua.jpg

  20. Re: Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with Linux

    Verily I say unto thee, that Erik Funkenbusch spake thusly:
    > On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:19:05 +0000, Homer wrote:
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that Erik Funkenbusch spake thusly:
    >>> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:31:41 GMT, 7 wrote:


    >>>> Don't buy Micoshaft branded hardware - it won't work with
    >>>> Linux.
    >>>
    >>> Considering i've never seen any hardware that was NOT branded
    >>> with a Windows logo, you'll have some awfully slim pickins.

    >>
    >> Sorry to spoil your day again Erik, but...

    >
    > Don't worry, you're not.


    I forgot you like to sand-dance.

    >> Thanks for confirming that Microsoft does indeed have a monopoly.

    >
    > I think you're confused.


    See below.

    >> For the benefit of those who may have missed the subtext, you are
    >> actually referring to WHQL/WLP certification, which most hardware
    >> vendors will undoubtedly want to participate in, or risk losing a
    >> vast portion of their market, because of that monopoly.

    >
    > There are many other logos on those products too. I typically see
    > the MacOS logo on many of them too. Does that mean MacOS has a
    > monopoly? I've even seen Linux logos on some, wow I guess Linux is a
    > monopoly too.


    A Mac logo on a handful of Apple approved products is hardly "typical"
    (Apple's paranoid control of hardware is infamous), and as for Linux
    logos ... I know Red Hat and Novell have certification programmes
    (although I've yet to see a "Certified for Linux" logo on any hardware),
    but beyond that I think you'll find the only "Linux logos" are Tux case
    badges stuck on by the few independent vendors out there.

    Certainly in terms of volume, the vast majority of products only have a
    Windows logo on them, and that /is/ a monopoly position, like it or not
    Erik, because it means those products are being specifically built with
    the intention of running Windows, and most of them do in fact end up
    doing just that.

    However, your contention that /all/ hardware sports Windows logos is
    obviously wrong, because (as I pointed out in the bit you snipped) some
    of that hardware is architecturally incompatible with Windows. The range
    and volume of those Windows-incompatible systems is growing larger every
    day. Shifting the goalposts on your original argument doesn't make that
    fact any less true.

    > When 90% of the market runs Windows, no vendor in their right mind
    > would NOT want a Windows Logo on their hardware, regardless of
    > whether they have a legal monopoly or not.


    But that's a circular argument. You're justifying supporting the
    monopoly because ... there is a monopoly. As for monopolies being
    "legal", well that depends entirely on whether or not they are in
    violation of antitrust laws, and it's already been established that
    Microsoft's monopoly wasn't ... at least twice. Regardless, AFAIAC
    /no/ monopoly is ethical, and /all/ monopolies are antithetical to
    the principle of a Free Market Economy - or IOW anti-capitalist.

    >> However I think you may have overlooked something rather obvious.

    >
    > No, I was only talking about PC hardware


    So a PPC Mac is not a Personal Computer?

    A Netbook is not a Personal Computer?

    A PS3 running a full GNU/Linux OS is not a Personal Computer?

    Bull****.

    Sounds to me like you're trying to limit the argument to suit your own
    purposes. A PC is /any/ computing device that can run a multi-purpose
    operating system to provide the full range of personal computing tasks.
    Trying to claim that it's not a PC unless it has the word "Intel" on it
    is just blinkered and arrogant, Erik, especially when some of that
    hardware is every bit as powerful as Intel equivalents (e.g. PS3). But
    regardless, you can't say it's "not a PC" just because it only runs at
    [xx]Mhx. If that were the case, then you might just as well claim that
    an 8086 machine was not really a PC.

    If you're going to make statements like "i've never seen any hardware
    that was NOT branded with a Windows logo", then modify that to "PC
    hardware", then further modify that to "Intel-compatible PC hardware",
    then you really are painting yourself into a corner. What next; "Intel
    -compatible PC hardware faster than 500MHz"?

    > While Linux does in fact run on a variety of devices, those are
    > usually either curiosities


    Your condescending attitude does not alter the fact that they /are/
    nonetheless computers that can be and /are/ used as Personal Computers.

    And your scepticism is not typical either, since you surely can't have
    failed to notice the huge surge in popularity in the Netbook market.
    Some of those machines run Windows - are you claiming /they/ are not
    "PCs" too? However, unfortunately for the Microsoft fanatics, many of
    these devices are incapable (or in some cases /barely/ capable) of
    running Windows, and even then the version of Windows they can barely
    run is a seven year old relic called XP ... and a cut-down version at
    that. Are you now going to redefine "hardware" to "Intel-compatible PC
    hardware faster than 500MHz that runs Vista"?

    Under the circumstances, and given the future that personal computing
    seems to be headed in, it's likely that white-elephants like /Vista/ and
    relics like XP will actually become the "curiosities", with Linux set to
    be the de facto OS for the next generation of personal computing, unless
    Microsoft can perform a miracle with Windows 7, and the Vole is not well
    known for performing miracles - just look at Vista.

    This must be another huge disappointment for you, but the consolation is
    you can look forward to a much better personal computing experience in
    the future, albeit without the benefit of Microsoft holding your hand
    (and raiding your wallet).

    What will you say in the future, when most personal computing is done on
    these "curious devices", and most of the heavy lifting and storage is
    cloud-based? Will you then claim there are no "PCs" any more, merely
    because they don't run Windows?

    Face it Erik, you've picked the losing team, and for all the wrong
    reasons too. You may have built your life inside Microsoft's house of
    cards, but things change, and you'd better change too if you don't want
    to be trapped under the rubble once that house inevitably collapses.

    > Sorry, but I don't see people doing spreadsheets on their PS2 Linux
    > systems.


    I was doing spreadsheets on an 3.5Mhz Sinclair Spectrum in 1982, I'm
    damned sure I can do the same on a 300MHz PS2 running Linux and
    Gnumeric, and certainly on a 3.2GHz PS3 running Linux and OpenOffice.

    Your "vision" is narrow and clouded. I suggest you see an optician.

    >> The /reality/ is that when it comes to multi-architecture support
    >> it's /Windows/ users who have the "slim pickins".

    >
    > Perhaps, but that doesn't really matter.


    Wake up and pull your head out the sand, Erik.

    > The vast majority of non-x86 PC hardware that runs Linux does so for
    > convenience


    Well that's a total non-statement worthy of Billy Buttcrust, if I ever
    heard one. The entire Raison d'entre for /computers/ is "convenience".
    Didn't you read any of those Nicklaus Wirth books in college?

    > and the users of those devices typically have no idea Linux is even
    > in use, nor would it matter to them.


    Fine, they're oblivious. So what?

    Linux is still powering those computers, and in many cases it is /only/
    because of Linux that those computers could be made at all, because the
    hardware simply won't work with Windows, for either architectural or
    resource reasons.

    Are you reaching for the "popularity" angle now? Windows isn't "popular"
    either, haven't you heard? No really, Windows is /not/ "popular" ...
    it's /ubiquitous/. Nearly every Windows user I've ever encountered has
    expressed nothing but contempt for Windows, due to its interminable
    problems; expense; bloat; slowness; erratic behaviour; Malware; and
    generally the proportion of those users' time that they need to spend
    /fixing/ the system rather than /using/ it. That's /Windows/ users not
    /Linux/ "zealots" expressing that contempt, so don't waste your time
    with the "popularity" nonsense, Erik, because it won't wash. We all know
    how Microsoft achieved /ubiquity/ for its products, and it wasn't due to
    "popular" demand from consumers. I have 3GB of court papers on my
    Website that prove it.

    I think you'll find that if those "curious devices" could actually run
    Windows, it suddenly /would/ "matter" to the users, because they'd be
    cursed by the same problems that currently plague them on the Desktop.

    >> Oh, and if you're looking for a Christmas present for the kids or
    >> grandkids this year, I recommend this:
    >>
    >> http://openpandora.org
    >>
    >> You might want to pick one up for yourself too (I know *I* will).

    >
    > That's kind of an odd device.


    It's called a computer, Erik, you may have heard of them before.

    > It seems confused about it's market.


    Generally speaking, inanimate objects don't get "confused", lacking
    higher brain functions as they do, unless of course they have a Windows
    "mind", in which case it's entirely possible. Perhaps it's just you
    who's confused. The "market" for this device is anyone who wants a
    portable general-purpose computer, which is exactly what it is.

    > a 600Mhz processor suggest a PDA kind of functionality, but the
    > inclusion of a 24 bit LCD with OpenGL suggests gaming (not to mention
    > the gaming controls)


    Hence "general purpose".

    > but the CPU is too low spec to make it a useful gaming system unless
    > it has one hell of a GPU (which it doesn't mention the specs for,
    > though it does have a DSP which could lead to some interesting uses).


    It's good enough to play "Quake3 with ease", and that's good enough for
    me. That's about the limit of my current laptop, which cost 6 times as
    much; is 4 times the size and weight; only has a 1.5 hour battery life;
    and doesn't fit in my pocket. My laptop also had the disadvantage of
    benefiting Microsoft's bank-account against my wishes, because it came
    with XP preinstalled - without option - because of Microsoft's monopoly.
    That is yet another disadvantage not shared by the Pandora. Overall,
    this "curious device" is shaping up to be damned-near perfect for me.

    > I guess I could see it challenging the Nintendo DS market or the PSP
    > market, but both those devices have a better form factor than this
    > (particularly the PSP).


    Can the PSP or NDS run OpenOffice?

    > And the real $64,000 question is, what can you run on it? Besides
    > Vim and Emacs?


    You mean apart from a full operating system complete with a selection
    from tens of thousands of available applications and games, and games
    emulated from a myriad of other systems?

    Maybe you should ask "what *doesn't* run on it?"

    Oh, that's right - Windows.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    18:22:32 up 23 days, 4:18, 3 users, load average: 0.39, 0.18, 0.11

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