My employer completed migration of apps to Linux - Linux

This is a discussion on My employer completed migration of apps to Linux - Linux ; The Natural Philosopher wrote: > Peter Köhlmann wrote: >> The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> >>> Peter Köhlmann wrote: >>>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:43:16 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> Linux has the same ...

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Thread: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

  1. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    > Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    >>
    >>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >>>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:43:16 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>> Linux has the same sort of problem as electric and hydrogen cars.
    >>>>>> No, it does not. For starters: Linux is not a car. Stop these idiotic
    >>>>>> car analogies. They are just plain dumb and miss the point 99 out of
    >>>>>> hundred
    >>>>> You really have a hard time understanding things, don't you peter?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Hint: I didn't say it was a car, and it's not an analogy.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I said, it has the same sort of problem as those cars. That problem
    >>>>> is that while the product may suit the users needs 95% of the time,
    >>>>> it's the 5% of the time it doesn't that causes Linux to continue to be
    >>>>> overlooked.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> And the Linux community doesn't seem to be in any hurry to solve that
    >>>>> "last 5%" problem.
    >>>> So what are these "last 5%", Erik?
    >>>> The vast majority of users don't need anything outside of a default
    >>>> linux install. Why don't you explain what is missing, Erik?
    >>>>
    >>> Well the same goes for Macintosh really.
    >>>
    >>> But we have already identified plenty of graphics/CAD programs that are
    >>> class leaders and don't run on Linux.

    >>
    >> And are used by a small minority. We talk about "most users" here
    >>

    >
    > Most Linux users? or most users of PC's?
    >
    > Sorry, but your opinion is just an opinion. All the people I *know* who
    > actually USE computers in business, need things that aren't available on
    > linux.
    >


    Ah, now it suddenly is "business users". Nice golapost move
    >
    >>> Then there are the simulators and games.

    >>
    >> Of which lots are running under Wine. Additionally, lots of people are
    >> not into gaming.

    >
    > But lots are.
    > For many its the prime reason to buy one.


    And now suddenly it isn't "business users" any longer.

    Do you realize how ridiculous your arguemtns are when you contradict
    yourself that way?

    And now go playing on some highway, you are too dishonest to discuss with

    < snip more outright garbage >
    --
    Support your local Search and Rescue unit -- get lost.


  2. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux



    "snipe" wrote in message
    news:AMadnS_JqOfuHI3UnZ2dnUVZ_s_inZ2d@supernews.co m...

    >
    > As long as I'm getting in parting shots: Despite the statistics someone
    > else quoted from a biased gaming-related site, none of the
    > computer-owning adults *I* know play graphics-intensive computer games,
    > though they do enjoy card games and strategy games like Sokoban. Grown
    > adults tend to be more into games that challenge and develop thinking
    > skills, rather than one's ability to slaughter human beings and frag
    > ridiculous monsters. Just look in on any shopping-mall gaming arcade,
    > and at least 95% (and probably 100%) of the people you'll see at the
    > games are kids.


    You just don't know anyone with windows so they can't run the games.
    But don't let that cloud your judgment.
    Here the adults run things like sims, civ, flight sim and other *good*
    games.
    While you may not be able to try and enjoy these games don't assume you are
    the majority as they have sold many millions of copies and not, generally,
    to children


    >>> No disrespect to the Gimp, but photoshop it aint.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> And 99.99% of users don't need Photoshop. Actually, of 99.9% of users
    >> Gimp is already overkill

    >
    > The average home user needs Photoshop about as much as they need a $3500
    > Nikon.


    No but if you have a $400 Nikon you probably want it.

    >
    >>> Why cant you accept that Windows, whilst being utter crap, has about
    >>> 100 times more software that will run on it than on any other platform.

    >>
    >> Because it doesn't

    >
    > We're at a disadvantage here because we can't point to very many Linux
    > applications and say that Windows doesn't have them. But that's because
    > Linux developers freely share, whereas virtually all Windows
    > applications *except* for the 30,000 or so freely given to them by the
    > Linux crowd, are tightly held, non-portable, closed-source, Windows-only
    > applications. Even most Windows freeware is closed source and thus can't
    > be ported by others.


    Just think for a second or two.. if people didn't want those apps they
    wouldn't sell.
    Now why do people buy those apps rather than find a free one?

    >
    > I've really got to get going now, but that begs a parting question: If
    > Linux and OSS developers were as ungenerous with their code as Windows
    > developers, what applications and features would Linux users now have
    > that Windows users would lack?


    If linux users were prepared to pay for the apps then someone would sell
    them to you, however people like you that insist that they be free make it
    impossible for them to make any cash so they don't.




  3. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    > The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    >
    >> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >>>>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:43:16 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Linux has the same sort of problem as electric and hydrogen cars.
    >>>>>>> No, it does not. For starters: Linux is not a car. Stop these idiotic
    >>>>>>> car analogies. They are just plain dumb and miss the point 99 out of
    >>>>>>> hundred
    >>>>>> You really have a hard time understanding things, don't you peter?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Hint: I didn't say it was a car, and it's not an analogy.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I said, it has the same sort of problem as those cars. That problem
    >>>>>> is that while the product may suit the users needs 95% of the time,
    >>>>>> it's the 5% of the time it doesn't that causes Linux to continue to be
    >>>>>> overlooked.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> And the Linux community doesn't seem to be in any hurry to solve that
    >>>>>> "last 5%" problem.
    >>>>> So what are these "last 5%", Erik?
    >>>>> The vast majority of users don't need anything outside of a default
    >>>>> linux install. Why don't you explain what is missing, Erik?
    >>>>>
    >>>> Well the same goes for Macintosh really.
    >>>>
    >>>> But we have already identified plenty of graphics/CAD programs that are
    >>>> class leaders and don't run on Linux.
    >>> And are used by a small minority. We talk about "most users" here
    >>>

    >> Most Linux users? or most users of PC's?
    >>
    >> Sorry, but your opinion is just an opinion. All the people I *know* who
    >> actually USE computers in business, need things that aren't available on
    >> linux.
    >>

    >
    > Ah, now it suddenly is "business users". Nice golapost move
    >>>> Then there are the simulators and games.
    >>> Of which lots are running under Wine. Additionally, lots of people are
    >>> not into gaming.

    >> But lots are.
    >> For many its the prime reason to buy one.

    >
    > And now suddenly it isn't "business users" any longer.
    >
    > Do you realize how ridiculous your arguemtns are when you contradict
    > yourself that way?
    >
    > And now go playing on some highway, you are too dishonest to discuss with
    >


    Oh dear. Religious are we?

    I suppose the possibility that there exist at least two large classes of
    people who want Windows - the business community *and* gamers, is simply
    too hard for your brain to grasp?

    It doesn't say much that such a subnormal brain thinks linux is all
    things to all people.


    > < snip more outright garbage >


    Is that really the best that you can do?

    You are actually making a bigger case against Linux, by portraying the
    community as narrow, biased and unwilling to face facts, than if you had
    kept your mouth shut.


    I am a fan of Linux. its great. But it doesn't answer all my needs, or
    all the needs of many people (other than you).

    That's a fact.

    You wont make linux happen by shouting lies about it. Instead, start
    getting a windows app shim that really works, or convincing 3rd parry
    developers to take it seriously.



  4. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    snipe wrote:

    > A far as I'm concerned, Linux is fine just as it is. If they prefer the
    > limitations of Windows, that's their problem.


    > I don't need Solidworks, or any of the other niche applications that
    > most people have never heard of and don't care about.



    You seem to be contradicting yourself in this thread. On one hand you
    say that most people have no need for "niche" apps like Solidworks or
    Photoshop. On the other hand you wonder why people would put up with
    the "limitations" of Windows.

    If most users are as unsophisticated as you believe, when would they
    ever run into Windows limitations.

    For example: If someone needs a pc for web surfing, email, and editing
    text why would they need the ability to configure tcp traffic shaping.

    If a persons computing needs are simple, why would they need all of the
    power that a Linux distribution brings? Even Windows is overkill for
    the crowd that has trouble comprehending cut/copy/paste or drag-n-drop.


    -Hawk

  5. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Homer wrote:
    > Whatever "phaslanx2" is, Google only has two hits for it, and they're
    > both the same message. Again, root access required.


    "phalanx2" (not "phaslanx2") is a rootkit.

    Regards.

  6. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 19:56:30 -0600, snipe wrote:
    >
    >> No, it's like saying that there are so many people in the world that I
    >> could afford to exclude all Californians and I'd still have more
    >> customers than I know what to do with.

    >
    > And people who might go to california once in a while...
    >
    > And that is Free Software's major problem. They see nothing wrong with
    > ignoring a large percentage of the market, and then wonder why people
    > ignore them.
    >
    > Linux has the same sort of problem as electric and hydrogen cars. They
    > may work fine so long as you stay within the range of your house where you
    > can plug-in at night, or a hydrogen fuel station, but if you want to go on
    > a cross country trip, you're screwed.
    >
    > Sure, most people don't need to drive more than 300 miles from their home
    > on a regular basis, but every now and then they do.. and they can't have a
    > car that limits them to that.


    That's what rental cars are for

  7. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Verily I say unto thee, that LusoTec spake thusly:
    > Homer wrote:


    >> Whatever "phaslanx2" is, Google only has two hits for it, and
    >> they're both the same message. Again, root access required.

    >
    > "phalanx2" (not "phaslanx2") is a rootkit.


    I was merely quoting the op in the article:

    "A couple of months ago I encountered a machine infected by the
    phaslanx2 rootkit."

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    01:01:28 up 25 days, 10:57, 3 users, load average: 0.05, 0.12, 0.10

  8. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Verily I say unto thee, that Erik Funkenbusch spake thusly:
    > On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 01:57:57 +0000, Homer wrote:


    >> http://backuppc.sourceforge.net

    >
    > No, that doesn't do all that. Show me the boot CD to restore a
    > complete image from any point in time? It's not there.


    You're kidding, right? Come on, Erik, nearly every Linux distro out
    there has a LiveCD you can boot from "to restore a complete image from
    any point in time". You're thinking in two dimensions again.

    > Not only that, but it's a pain to install


    Yeah, "yum install BackupPC", or just hitting the checkbox next to
    "BackupPC" in Synaptic, is such a "pain".

    > and configure.


    What exactly is so hard about adding a client's hostname, and using
    the default settings?

    > There's no agent that runs on the client PC's to automate the tasks.


    Maybe that's because it doesn't need one.

    No client-side software is needed. The standard smb protocol is used to
    extract backup data on WinXX clients.

    > Everything is web based.


    And that matters because ...?

    > Having said that, Backuppc is about as close to WHS Backup as i've
    > seen,


    I think you meant to say that the other way round, since BackupPC has
    been available since 2001, some six years before WHS.

    > but it requires a serious and knowledgable administrator to setup


    So you claim, Erik.

    > WHS doesn't.


    Ah yes, Microsoft's famous "ease of use" (translation: you can't make it
    do what you actually want it to do, and what little it does do - it does
    poorly).

    > Here's a prime example. The web interface has no "browse"
    > functionality. You can't browse for a PC to configure, you have to
    > type stuff in knowing the paths.


    It's official, you really /don't/ know what the Hell you're talking
    about. Try actually using the software before you start talking crap.
    Then look at this page on your backup server:

    http://localhost/BackupPC

    See that link that reads "Host Summary"? Try clicking on it. What do you
    see now? That's right, a list of hosts. Now click on one of them. See in
    the top left where it reads "Edit Config"? What do you suppose that does
    Erik?

    Idiot.

    > For example:
    >
    > http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/Back...reOptions.html
    >
    > Notice how there is no way to pick the restore path, you have to type
    > it in. That's just ridiculous in this day and age.


    Well given the number of different protocols one can use to perform that
    backup (smb, ssh, rsh, nfs, rsync/rsyncd), what method would you
    recommend is used to browse for a restore path in a heterogeneous
    environment?

    Oh that's right, WHS doesn't support heterogeneous environments at all,
    does it? It's "Windows only", which means it's utterly; totally useless
    to me.

    > Yet you somehow totally missed the fact that Backuppc doesn't do half
    > of what WHS Backup does.


    It does everything WHS does, but in a different way which you apparently
    find unacceptable. It also does at least one more thing that WHS doesn't
    do at all, and that one little thing is absolutely crucial - it lets me
    backup /all/ of my systems, not just the Windows ones.

    There is one "feature" that WHS has which is lacking in BackupPC though
    .... it corrupts files. I'll give you that one.

    > Why is that?


    Ask Microsoft; they never did fully explain the problem:

    http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9054178

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    02:11:30 up 25 days, 12:07, 3 users, load average: 0.20, 0.15, 0.08

  9. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Baho Utot wrote:
    > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >> snipe wrote:
    >>
    >>> No, it's like saying that there are so many people in the
    >>> world that I could afford to exclude all Californians and
    >>> I'd still have more customers than I know what to do with.
    >>>

    >> And people who might go to california once in a while...
    >>
    >> And that is Free Software's major problem. They see nothing
    >> wrong with ignoring a large percentage of the market, and
    >> then wonder why people ignore them.
    >>
    >> Linux has the same sort of problem as electric and hydrogen
    >> cars. They may work fine so long as you stay within the
    >> range of your house where you can plug-in at night, or a
    >> hydrogen fuel station, but if you want to go on a cross
    >> country trip, you're screwed.


    http://promos.asus.com/US/website/Sp...Computing.html

    ASUS Introduces One Day Computing

    The Holy Grail of mobile computing has always been long battery
    life. No matter how fast, powerful, or stylish computers become,
    until now they were useless after more than a few hours of use.
    Which undermined the whole purpose of mobile computing.

    Today, you have another choice. ASUS Eee PC 901, Eee PC 901 XP,
    Eee PC 1000, and Eee PC 1000H all feature from 6 to 7.8 hours of
    battery life for full day, unplugged computing. Now travelers
    will be able to work on intercontinental flights. Business
    people will be able to visit their accounts all day. And hikers
    will be able to use stay connected to their digital world longer.
    Eee PC 901 comes with Linux (XP version comes with less available
    storage). Eee PC 1000 comes only with Linux and is rated at 8
    hours battery life. XP version 1000H is rated at 7 hours battery
    life. With the Linux version comes greater away from home
    loitering time. They all come with working WiFi.

    >> Sure, most people don't need to drive more than 300 miles
    >> from their home on a regular basis, but every now and then
    >> they do.. and they can't have a car that limits them to
    >> that.

    >
    > That's what rental cars are for


    Or Jeepneys.

    --
    HPT

  10. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Hawk wrote:
    > snipe wrote:
    >
    >> A far as I'm concerned, Linux is fine just as it is. If they prefer the
    >> limitations of Windows, that's their problem.

    >
    > > I don't need Solidworks, or any of the other niche applications that
    > > most people have never heard of and don't care about.

    >
    >
    > You seem to be contradicting yourself in this thread. On one hand you
    > say that most people have no need for "niche" apps like Solidworks or
    > Photoshop. On the other hand you wonder why people would put up with
    > the "limitations" of Windows.
    >
    > If most users are as unsophisticated as you believe, when would they
    > ever run into Windows limitations.
    >
    > For example: If someone needs a pc for web surfing, email, and editing
    > text why would they need the ability to configure tcp traffic shaping.
    >
    > If a persons computing needs are simple, why would they need all of the
    > power that a Linux distribution brings? Even Windows is overkill for
    > the crowd that has trouble comprehending cut/copy/paste or drag-n-drop.
    >


    But for he unsophisticated, there is always a Big Mac...;-)
    >
    > -Hawk


  11. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:43:56 -0600, Ignoramus14339 wrote:

    >>> We use async I/O, for both network reads and writes, so that reads and
    >>> writes are done on a "as soon as possible" basis.

    >>
    >> Not if you're using select you're not, not on Linux or Windows.

    >
    > That's what select is for. It is interrupted as soon as data is
    > received, or data can be written, or a timeout period expires.


    Which is entirely different from async I/O.

    >>> I do not know how exactly they work.

    >>
    >> You don't have to. Their existence proves it's possible.

    >
    > They simply may have a lot more servers than necessary to overcome
    > their inefficiencies.


    What are you talking about? You claimed it simply could not be done on
    Windows, what does your comment have to do with your original claims?

    >> No, it doesn't. select() has two modes, blocking and non-blocking.
    >> non-blocking is polled because you to keep calling select to see if there
    >> is data. blocking eats up a thread waiting for data.

    >
    > Yes, but that is exactly the point, to block a thread and wait for
    > data (or an opportunity to write).


    No, it's not. Async I/O's point is that your code is never called until a
    complete request is satisfied. It doesn't block, and it's not polled.

    >> Async I/O uses I/O completion ports to callback into your application via a
    >> user specified callback hook when data is received. This requires no
    >> blocking of application threads, nor does it involve polling, and response
    >> is event driven.
    >>
    >> In fact, even the Linux man page says quite explicitly that select() is
    >> syncronous.
    >>
    >> http://linux.die.net/man/2/select
    >>
    >> "select, pselect, FD_CLR, FD_ISSET, FD_SET, FD_ZERO - synchronous I/O
    >> multiplexing"

    >
    > The key word is "multiplexing", that is, being able to manage many I/O
    > channels at once without blocking on any of them to the detriment of others.


    Multiplexing and asyncronous are not the same thing. In fact, they're
    diametrically opposed. "multiplexing" is the ability share a syncronous
    connection. Async means that I/O completes outside of the function of the
    threads of the application. Also, you can't do multiplexing without
    polling (ie, non-blocking) sockets.

    Linux has their own async I/O functions, see
    http://lse.sourceforge.net/io/aionotes.txt

    The fact that you don't undrestand the difference between async and sync,
    and pretend to know the difference tells me you're not only a poor
    programmer, but an arrogant one at that.

    >>> You have not proven anything. This incredibuild is a very cumbersome
    >>> software and ver disruptive to server PCs.

    >>
    >> Now you stoop to making unjustified claims about software you've never
    >> used, nor know anything about. Wow.

    >
    > What do you want me to do, pay big bucks for it and go back to
    > Windows?


    No, I want you to admit you have no idea what you're talking about, and
    that you simply have no idea either how to write software for Windows, or
    how to do proper build environments on Windows.

    I also want you to admit that your comments about windows are full of crap.

    >> distcc may be fine for what it does, but it clearly isn't sophisticated
    >> enough to handle many scenarios.

    >
    > Well, let's start with some example?


    The very one you were complaining about. Using the microsoft C++ compiler.

    >> Supporting a standard doesn't require that that standard provide native
    >> performance. Many OS's support Posix as a wrapper with varying degrees of
    >> performance.

    >
    > Exactly my point, poor performance of Windows.


    Poor performance on Windows when you write apps as if they were Unix.
    Please don't forget that part.

  12. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 19:01:22 +0000, Hawk wrote:

    > snipe wrote:
    >
    >> A far as I'm concerned, Linux is fine just as it is. If they prefer the
    >> limitations of Windows, that's their problem.

    >
    > > I don't need Solidworks, or any of the other niche applications that
    > > most people have never heard of and don't care about.

    >
    >
    > You seem to be contradicting yourself in this thread. On one hand you
    > say that most people have no need for "niche" apps like Solidworks or
    > Photoshop. On the other hand you wonder why people would put up with
    > the "limitations" of Windows.
    >
    > If most users are as unsophisticated as you believe, when would they
    > ever run into Windows limitations.
    >
    > For example: If someone needs a pc for web surfing, email, and editing
    > text why would they need the ability to configure tcp traffic shaping.
    >
    > If a persons computing needs are simple, why would they need all of the
    > power that a Linux distribution brings? Even Windows is overkill for
    > the crowd that has trouble comprehending cut/copy/paste or drag-n-drop.
    >


    Honestly, I do think that today's operating systems *are* overkill for
    large parts of the crowd.

    Example:

    I had someone at work the other day ask me how to put files into another
    file. First thought ok, he's got some files he needs to compress into an
    archive and can't figure out how. So I go over and look at it and he
    shows me some existing "files in another file" and wants the do to this
    to a new file.

    Turns out that this "file" he was putting other files into was nothing
    more than a directory. I actually had to spend 15 minutes explaining to
    him how to copy a file from one directory to another.

    Another case I had a little while ago was someone who had some image
    files they couldn't figure out how to open. I go to look at the computer
    and all files were missing their extension. Linux obviously wouldn't have
    cared but since windows does, she couldn't do anything with the files. I
    figured that most likely they are jpegs and added the appropriate
    extension. Turned out I was right and windows was happy.

    The more difficult part was trying to explain to her that no, you can't
    just turn any file into an image by adding ".jpg" to it. I doubt however
    my message arrived and I'm sure I'll eventually have to remove ".jpg"
    from an exe file or something because a program won't launch anymore.

    When you're dealing with those kinds of users, I don't care if it's
    windows, linux or mac. They are all overkill. And from personal
    experience I see users like that quite often.

    However, I've steered a few users just like the above to Ubuntu in the
    past with great success. None of them have wanted to return to windows. I
    suppose not having to deal with an OS that is incapable of opening a file
    when it doesn't have a certain extension is helpful. =)

    --
    Stephan
    1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

    君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
    君の事忘れたときがないから

  13. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Stephan Rose wrote:

    > Honestly, I do think that today's operating systems *are* overkill for
    > large parts of the crowd.
    >
    > Example:
    >
    > I had someone at work the other day ask me how to put files into another
    > file. First thought ok, he's got some files he needs to compress into an
    > archive and can't figure out how. So I go over and look at it and he
    > shows me some existing "files in another file" and wants the do to this
    > to a new file.
    >
    > Turns out that this "file" he was putting other files into was nothing
    > more than a directory. I actually had to spend 15 minutes explaining to
    > him how to copy a file from one directory to another.
    >


    I run into that sort of thing all the time as well.

    I have people that repeatedly ask me how to copy a file from one drive
    to another. These are people that have supposedly been using a pc for
    years. It boggles my mind that they still can't figure out how to copy
    a file from their hard disk to a flash drive.

    The biggest problem is that 99% of these types have zero interest in
    understanding how any of it works. They would rather have someone give
    them a written list of steps to follow instead of spending a minute or
    two figuring it out and understanding what's going on. They instantly
    reach for a phone and call for help. My patience wears extremely thin
    with those types.

    Users in the forementioned category will NEVER be bothered by Windows
    "limitations". They are barely past the stage of hitting the power
    button to turn the machine on. I have even dealt with users that
    COULDN'T FIND THE POWER BUTTON ON THE CASE.

    Windows will never be the bottleneck for these users.


    -Hawk

  14. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    snipe wrote:
    > On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:09:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    >> And the languages they are putting time into are java, javascript and
    >> so on.

    >
    > That's because websites depend on them, not because popular applications
    > require them. The only application on my system that requires java or
    > javascript is my web browser, and that's just as an automatic
    > installation dependency. The first thing I do after installation is to
    > disable both to get rid of all the ads. I don't use any web applications
    > and never will, because I don't trust other people with my personal
    > data, nor will I put the applications that my data and income depend on
    > at someone else's mercy.
    >


    There are some of us who find java and/or javascript useful in a
    browser. I'm a farmer, and I can't tell you how handy it is to be able
    to see if that dark cloud on the horizon is headed my way to get my hay
    wet, or if the rainy part's headed somewhere else. You need java and/or
    javascript to get radar loops. (I'm never clear on just which one. I
    don't really care. All I know is that the loops won't work unless JRE or
    an equivalent plugin is installed in Firefox.)

    TJ

  15. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    "dennis@home" writes:

    > "Ignoramus14339" wrote in
    > message news:y7Cdnd6Dia_0zY3UnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@giganews.com ...
    >> On 2008-11-04, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:09:32 -0000, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Async does it on a "as late as possible basis".
    >>>> Synchronous IO does it on a as soon as possible basis.
    >>>
    >>> By that i take it you mean that Async notifies the app when a request has
    >>> been filled, while sync unblocks as soon as it receives the first
    >>> data (or
    >>> rather as soon as the next time-slice starts after the first data
    >>> has been
    >>> received)

    >>
    >> In Linux, the notification of arriving data does not wait until the
    >> next time slice, it is all initiated by the network card and goes up
    >> the stack from there on. select() is interrupted when
    >>
    >> 1) some data arrives on one of the sockets
    >> 2) some write socket becomes available for writing
    >> 3) timeout period expired
    >>
    >> I believe that the same applies to Windows and the select call blocks
    >> until the app can do something. The high windows kernel CPU usage that
    >> we saw was a result of the kernel being inefficient at moving data.

    >
    > If an application does mainly IO I would expect it to have high kernel
    > cpu figures, it is the kernel that should be doing most of the work.


    You are completely wrong.

  16. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux



    "Steve Townsend" wrote in message
    news:gesjeg$lrh$1@registered.motzarella.org...
    > "dennis@home" writes:
    >
    >> "Ignoramus14339" wrote in
    >> message news:y7Cdnd6Dia_0zY3UnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@giganews.com ...
    >>> On 2008-11-04, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:09:32 -0000, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Async does it on a "as late as possible basis".
    >>>>> Synchronous IO does it on a as soon as possible basis.
    >>>>
    >>>> By that i take it you mean that Async notifies the app when a request
    >>>> has
    >>>> been filled, while sync unblocks as soon as it receives the first
    >>>> data (or
    >>>> rather as soon as the next time-slice starts after the first data
    >>>> has been
    >>>> received)
    >>>
    >>> In Linux, the notification of arriving data does not wait until the
    >>> next time slice, it is all initiated by the network card and goes up
    >>> the stack from there on. select() is interrupted when
    >>>
    >>> 1) some data arrives on one of the sockets
    >>> 2) some write socket becomes available for writing
    >>> 3) timeout period expired
    >>>
    >>> I believe that the same applies to Windows and the select call blocks
    >>> until the app can do something. The high windows kernel CPU usage that
    >>> we saw was a result of the kernel being inefficient at moving data.

    >>
    >> If an application does mainly IO I would expect it to have high kernel
    >> cpu figures, it is the kernel that should be doing most of the work.

    >
    > You are completely wrong.


    Just think about what you say..

    write a five line C program that opens two files and copies between them (in
    biggish blocks not bytes).
    The user space bit is doing sod all.
    If it uses more time in user space than in the kernel something is wrong.


  17. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux



    "TJ" wrote in message
    news:gesick$da2$1@registered.motzarella.org...
    > snipe wrote:
    >> On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:09:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    >
    >>> And the languages they are putting time into are java, javascript and
    >>> so on.

    >>
    >> That's because websites depend on them, not because popular applications
    >> require them. The only application on my system that requires java or
    >> javascript is my web browser, and that's just as an automatic
    >> installation dependency. The first thing I do after installation is to
    >> disable both to get rid of all the ads. I don't use any web applications
    >> and never will, because I don't trust other people with my personal
    >> data, nor will I put the applications that my data and income depend on
    >> at someone else's mercy.

    >
    > There are some of us who find java and/or javascript useful in a browser.
    > I'm a farmer, and I can't tell you how handy it is to be able to see if
    > that dark cloud on the horizon is headed my way to get my hay wet, or if
    > the rainy part's headed somewhere else. You need java and/or javascript to
    > get radar loops. (I'm never clear on just which one. I don't really care.
    > All I know is that the loops won't work unless JRE or an equivalent plugin
    > is installed in Firefox.)
    >


    That would be java then.
    Java is a programming language and a run time environment (JRE).
    JavaScript is unrelated to Java and just uses the name Java to try and gain
    more credibility than when it was called LiveScript.

    I bet snipe uses Java too, OpenOffice uses Java.

    > TJ



  18. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    Chris Ahlstrom writes:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Christopher Hunter belched out
    > this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    >>
    >>> However while Linux is good and fast underneath I am not so sure that
    >>> X-windows is actually the best way to do graphics. I am not the worlds
    >>> expert but it did seem to me last time I peeked into it and hastily
    >>> looked away, that there's an awful lot more code to change a pixel in
    >>> that than in windows. And no short cuts.

    >
    > Shades of Erik's "update a pixel" claims!
    >
    > Ahhhh, nostalgia.
    >
    >> You've seen the Windows source code, have you? I have, and can tell you that
    >> DX10 is /much/ less efficient than the X server. The "optimisations" for
    >> DX10 don't work for most hardware...

    >
    > DX10 is, in part, just another apron string tying some people to
    > Microsoft.


    If you were a programmer or had half a clue you would know that X and
    DirectX are two totally different things. X is a far bigger thing than
    DirectX and DirectX excels at what it does as even a cursory glance at
    entertainment SW would show you. You would need Windows to see these
    games or possibly Wine so I doubt you know what you are talking about
    and are towing the company line in this newsgroup. Come and make your
    claims in a serious Linux programming group and you will be laughed at.

    Dx is proprietary as most efficient core libraries for graphics are. The
    open alternative , OpenGL was found lacking and programmers simply
    preferred DirectX. OpenGL, like most OSS, is always playing catch up.

    http://videogameprogramming.blogspot...irectx-10.html



  19. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    "dennis@home" writes:

    > "Steve Townsend" wrote in message
    > news:gesjeg$lrh$1@registered.motzarella.org...
    >> "dennis@home" writes:
    >>
    >>> "Ignoramus14339" wrote in
    >>> message news:y7Cdnd6Dia_0zY3UnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@giganews.com ...
    >>>> On 2008-11-04, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:09:32 -0000, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Async does it on a "as late as possible basis".
    >>>>>> Synchronous IO does it on a as soon as possible basis.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> By that i take it you mean that Async notifies the app when a
    >>>>> request has
    >>>>> been filled, while sync unblocks as soon as it receives the first
    >>>>> data (or
    >>>>> rather as soon as the next time-slice starts after the first data
    >>>>> has been
    >>>>> received)
    >>>>
    >>>> In Linux, the notification of arriving data does not wait until the
    >>>> next time slice, it is all initiated by the network card and goes up
    >>>> the stack from there on. select() is interrupted when
    >>>>
    >>>> 1) some data arrives on one of the sockets
    >>>> 2) some write socket becomes available for writing
    >>>> 3) timeout period expired
    >>>>
    >>>> I believe that the same applies to Windows and the select call blocks
    >>>> until the app can do something. The high windows kernel CPU usage that
    >>>> we saw was a result of the kernel being inefficient at moving data.
    >>>
    >>> If an application does mainly IO I would expect it to have high kernel
    >>> cpu figures, it is the kernel that should be doing most of the work.

    >>
    >> You are completely wrong.

    >
    > Just think about what you say..
    >
    > write a five line C program that opens two files and copies between
    > them (in biggish blocks not bytes).
    > The user space bit is doing sod all.
    > If it uses more time in user space than in the kernel something is
    > wrong.


    IO generally has the kernel sat there waiting on locks. IO is generally
    VERY low in CPU requirements.

    You said High kernel CPU figures - it is that bit I disagree with.

  20. Re: My employer completed migration of apps to Linux

    dennis@home wrote:
    >
    >
    > "TJ" wrote in message
    > news:gesick$da2$1@registered.motzarella.org...
    >> snipe wrote:
    >>> On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:09:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    >>
    >>>> And the languages they are putting time into are java, javascript and
    >>>> so on.
    >>>
    >>> That's because websites depend on them, not because popular applications
    >>> require them. The only application on my system that requires java or
    >>> javascript is my web browser, and that's just as an automatic
    >>> installation dependency. The first thing I do after installation is to
    >>> disable both to get rid of all the ads. I don't use any web applications
    >>> and never will, because I don't trust other people with my personal
    >>> data, nor will I put the applications that my data and income depend on
    >>> at someone else's mercy.

    >>
    >> There are some of us who find java and/or javascript useful in a
    >> browser. I'm a farmer, and I can't tell you how handy it is to be able
    >> to see if that dark cloud on the horizon is headed my way to get my
    >> hay wet, or if the rainy part's headed somewhere else. You need java
    >> and/or javascript to get radar loops. (I'm never clear on just which
    >> one. I don't really care. All I know is that the loops won't work
    >> unless JRE or an equivalent plugin is installed in Firefox.)
    >>

    >
    > That would be java then.
    > Java is a programming language and a run time environment (JRE).
    > JavaScript is unrelated to Java and just uses the name Java to try and
    > gain more credibility than when it was called LiveScript.
    >
    > I bet snipe uses Java too, OpenOffice uses Java.
    >
    >

    Ya know, I was going to bring that up, but it's been a looong time since
    I looked into it and I didn't know for sure if it was still true.

    TJ

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