In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ... - Linux

This is a discussion on In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ... - Linux ; .... we have the following three contestants: Mr. ray "Computer Pioneer Says Linux Sucks (wow)" lopez99: According to mr. 99 here, Jean-Louis Gassée has expressed the opinion that "Linux sucks", while in reality the man hasn't said anything more crass ...

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  1. In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    .... we have the following three contestants:

    Mr. ray "Computer Pioneer Says Linux Sucks (wow)" lopez99:
    According to mr. 99 here, Jean-Louis Gassée has expressed the opinion
    that "Linux sucks", while in reality the man hasn't said anything more
    crass than "Linux is still a little rough on normal humans." -- and the
    example he gives to support this notion (a netbook forgetting network
    settings) turns out to be largely user error, at that. For all the rest,
    he's quite neutral about Linux.
    (See http://news.cnet.com/8301-13953_3-10069777-80.html)

    So I asked mr. 99 to come up with the quote where mr. Gassée actually
    expresses severe dislike of Linux, as the words "Linux sucks" imply.

    Well mr. 99, we're all still waiting. Will you be the first to put up?


    Then we have good 'ole Doo "you're a liar!" FuS:
    When I said that a friend of mine couldn't install XP on a Vista laptop
    because of a lack of XP drivers for that hardware, his response was the
    Wintroll classic "Liar!".
    So I asked him to come up with a link to XP drivers for this machine's
    wireless card, a Broadcom BCM4315; incidentally, these were the only
    drivers I actually needed to get this machine fully operational, and they
    were very difficult to find. So difficult in fact, that a normal user
    wouldn't stand a chance. But I figured our esteemed Windows expert DooFuS
    should have no trouble locating Broadcom's drivers, given his comment.

    So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find download
    location of those BCM4315 drivers.


    And the latest entry, Amicus "You so disrespect the end users" Curious:
    In the course of the age-old discussion about the advantages and drawbacks
    of OSS as compared to Windows, he presented me with the following "fact":

    "You [the OSS people] so disrespect the end users and it shows."

    I asked for clarification on this particular point, preferably supported
    with examples -- which should be very easy to find, if OSS people are
    generally disrespectful -- as I've always been convinced that it was
    Microsoft who was notoriously disrespectful to end users.

    So far, silence ensued.

    So, our weird friend, will you be the one to save the Wintroll's face and
    put up first?

    Our expectations run high!

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  2. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    DFS wrote:

    > Richard Rasker wrote:


    >> So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    >> download location of those BCM4315 drivers.


    > ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip


    Good thing that you were able to supply a non-broken link...

    Otherwise one might think that you are lying
    --
    Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
    you with experience...


  3. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    Peter Klhmann:
    Just ask Snot Michael Glasser.
    He will explain why a convoluted mess, consisting of at least
    half a dozen mouse-clicks in seemingly unrelated positions
    will result in something similar, albeit not quite (most of
    the target formats will be missing).
    And then declare the OSX way superior

    Snit:
    Really Peter, what "half a dozen mouse-clicks in seemingly
    unrelated positions" do you mean? Please be specific.
    Peter runs in 3... 2... 1...
    100% predictable.
    Yes, Peter, you are that predictable...

    Come on, Peter, why were you never able to "put up"?

    LOL!


    --
    Picture of a tuna soda: http://snipurl.com/f351
    Feel free to ask for the recipe.




  4. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    Richard Rasker wrote:

    > So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    > download location of those BCM4315 drivers.


    ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip




  5. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    DFS wrote:
    > Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    >> download location of those BCM4315 drivers.

    >
    > ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip




    ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip




  6. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    Richard Rasker wrote:

    >And the latest entry, Amicus "You so disrespect the end users" Curious:
    >In the course of the age-old discussion about the advantages and drawbacks
    >of OSS as compared to Windows, he presented me with the following "fact":
    >
    > "You [the OSS people] so disrespect the end users and it shows."
    >
    >I asked for clarification on this particular point, preferably supported
    >with examples -- which should be very easy to find, if OSS people are
    >generally disrespectful -- as I've always been convinced that it was
    >Microsoft who was notoriously disrespectful to end users.


    In Rat's world, extortion is respectful. Indeed, it's good customer
    service!


  7. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    Peter Khlmann wrote:

    >DFS wrote:
    >
    >> Richard Rasker wrote:

    >
    >>> So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    >>> download location of those BCM4315 drivers.

    >
    >> ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip

    >
    >Good thing that you were able to supply a non-broken link...
    >
    >Otherwise one might think that you are lying


    Indeed. One might. 8)

    --
    "200% growth? If that were the case, based on your previous market
    figures, Linux would have more than 1000% of the market right now." -
    Erik Funkenbusch

  8. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    After takin' a swig o' grog, DFS belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    >> download location of those BCM4315 drivers.

    >
    > ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip


    Idiot.

    Try here:

    http://www.touslesdrivers.com/index....3&v_code=18380

    Broadcom_BCM43xx_4.150.22.0.zip

    Now try to find that file:

    http://www.filesearching.com/cgi-bin...oteBooks/Wi-Fi

    Now disable your script-blocker, if you dare. Hope you can read Russian.

    --
    QOTD:
    "I ain't broke, but I'm badly bent."

  9. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    DFS wrote:

    > DFS wrote:
    >> Richard Rasker wrote:
    >>
    >>> So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    >>> download location of those BCM4315 drivers.

    >>
    >> ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip

    >
    >
    >
    >

    ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip

    I have some bad news for you. The release notes would suggest that these are
    not the right drivers:

    Hardware:

    * Minimum configuration: Pentium 300 MHz, 128 MB RAM.
    * Broadcom BCM94301MP Mini-PCI Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94301CB Cardbus Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94301PC PCMCIA Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94306CB Cardbus Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94306MP Mini-PCI Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94306CBSG Cardbus Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94306MPSG Mini-PCI Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94306MPGP Cardbus Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94301+2050 Mini-PCI Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94309CB Cardbus Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94309MP Dualband Mini-PCI Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94318MP Dualband Mini-PCI Reference NIC -or-
    * Broadcom BCM94318MP Mini-PCI Reference NIC -or- vendor equivalent.

    And a grep through all the files in this package didn't turn up even one
    instance of '4315'. Perhaps you could explain how you found this link?
    And what information led you to believe that these were the correct XP
    drivers for the BCM4315?

    My own search of the Internet turned up numerous bcmwl5 drivers as well --
    but none of them the right one, as became apparent each time I tried
    installing those with ndiswrapper. Those searches also showed that
    virtually nobody succeeded in finding the right drivers for this card.

    But feel free to try again, your effort is much appreciated all the same.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  10. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, DFS belched out
    > this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> Richard Rasker wrote:
    >>
    >>> So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    >>> download location of those BCM4315 drivers.

    >>
    >> ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip

    >
    > Idiot.
    >
    > Try here:
    >
    > http://www.touslesdrivers.com/index....3&v_code=18380
    >
    > Broadcom_BCM43xx_4.150.22.0.zip


    Ah, so we have a more specific file name, at last. But not the actual
    drivers yet. Still, it's a neat bit of searching you pulled off here.
    May I ask how you landed on this site?

    > Now try to find that file:
    >
    >

    http://www.filesearching.com/cgi-bin...oteBooks/Wi-Fi
    >
    > Now disable your script-blocker, if you dare. Hope you can read Russian.


    I have no script blocker active, but this site turns up nothing nonetheless:

    Broadcom_BCM43xx_4.150.22.0.zip not found
    Try to use search forms to refine the parameters of your request.


    So, boys and girls, this little excercise shows us how really easy-peasy it
    is to find XP drivers for modern hardware. The average user should have no
    trouble at all getting XP to run perfectly on his of her Vista machine,
    right?



    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  11. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...


    "Richard Rasker" wrote in message
    news:490ae2c6$0$726$7ade8c0d@textreader.nntp.inter nl.net...
    >
    > So, our weird friend, will you be the one to save the Wintroll's face and
    > put up first?
    >
    > Our expectations run high!
    >

    Well, I answered you in the thread in which you asked the question, but your
    subsequent response chose to ignore it. You decided to call me a "Wintroll"
    instead, which sort of answers your question all by itself. That seems to
    put a serious question mark on your claim to have never indulged in such
    practices yourself as well.


  12. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Richard Rasker belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    >
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, DFS belched out
    >> this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> Richard Rasker wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> So, mr. DooFuS, we're still agog to hear from you that easy-to-find
    >>>> download location of those BCM4315 drivers.
    >>>
    >>> ftp://ftp.support.acer-euro.com/note...3.100.46.0.zip

    >>
    >> Idiot.
    >>
    >> Try here:
    >>
    >> http://www.touslesdrivers.com/index....3&v_code=18380
    >>
    >> Broadcom_BCM43xx_4.150.22.0.zip

    >
    > Ah, so we have a more specific file name, at last. But not the actual
    > drivers yet. Still, it's a neat bit of searching you pulled off here.
    > May I ask how you landed on this site?


    Googoo:

    bcm4315 windows xp drivers

    Then next page, pick the first link I thought might have a driver.

    There ain't many links, and most of them not in English.

    >> Now try to find that file:
    >>

    > http://www.filesearching.com/cgi-bin...oteBooks/Wi-Fi
    >>
    >> Now disable your script-blocker, if you dare. Hope you can read Russian.

    >
    > I have no script blocker active, but this site turns up nothing nonetheless:
    >
    > Broadcom_BCM43xx_4.150.22.0.zip not found
    > Try to use search forms to refine the parameters of your request.
    >
    > So, boys and girls, this little excercise shows us how really easy-peasy it
    > is to find XP drivers for modern hardware. The average user should have no
    > trouble at all getting XP to run perfectly on his of her Vista machine,
    > right?


    Indeed. Right now I would check for Broadcom hardware and its absence
    before picking /any/ piece of equipment, even though the FTP site does seem
    to have a lot of files.

    --
    And so it was, later,
    As the miller told his tale,
    That her face, at first just ghostly,
    Turned a whiter shade of pale.
    -- Procol Harum

  13. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    > Rat wrote:
    >>
    >> and generally spouting the opinion that anyone who pays for Windows is a
    >> fool or worse.


    Nope. Just more of your pathological lying, as you well know.

    >> If you suggest that Windows is working OK, then you are a "Wintroll".


    Another lie.

    >> You decided to call me a "Wintroll"


    Because A) you advocate Windows in a Linux advocacy group B) you
    defend Micro$oft's unethical behavior C) you're a liar

    NOT because you think "Windows works OK".


  14. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...


    "Richard Rasker" wrote in message
    news:490b3310$0$725$7ade8c0d@textreader.nntp.inter nl.net...

    ....

    > Derogatory terms such as "Wintard" and "Windope" aren't used for Windows
    > users, but more for those vehemently and sometimes almost violently
    > defending Windows here.
    >
    > "If you suggest that Windows is working OK, then you are a "Wintroll".
    >
    > Well, this *is* a Linux advocacy newsgroup. I seriously doubt if you'll
    > find
    > this term much outside this group. Besides, if I would go to a Windows
    > newsgroup and start talking about how great Linux is, I'll be
    > branded "Lintroll" within a day. Weird though, that none of the Windows
    > groups I found show more than sporadic "Lintroll" activity.
    > Why does this particular newsgroup evoke such strong emotions among
    > Windows
    > supporters that they feel they should come to the defence of Windows in
    > almost any thread dealing with the (supposed or real) superiority of Linux
    > in a particular area?
    >
    > "The average techno-dweeb doesn't see anything the matter with this
    > approach but the Windows user sees it as patronizing. You decided to call
    > me a "Wintroll" instead, which sort of answers your question all by
    > itself. That seems to put a serious question mark on your claim to have
    > never indulged in such practices yourself as well."
    >
    > The mud flinging going on around here isn't so much patronizing as
    > childish.
    > Yet calling someone who defends Windows in these parts a "Wintroll" isn't
    > exceptionally insulting, IMHO -- but if you take offence, I won't use it
    > to
    > personally address people any more. Nevertheless, it's still a good term
    > to
    > generally indicate those who vehemently, often even rabidly, come to the
    > rescue of Windows in this Linux newsgroup.
    >
    > But to stick with the subject: I still haven't seen any conclusive
    > evidence
    > that OSS people generally think low of Windows users. If I Google
    > for "Windows users are fools", I get less than a dozen hits -- and over
    > half of these are supposedly quotes by people who don't actually think
    > this
    > themselves. OK, "Windows users are stupid" produces significantly more
    > hits, but then again, so does "Linux users are stupid". So no, I don't
    > think that OSS people on average look down on Windows users, any more than
    > Windows people look down on Linux users. Most OSS people seem decent
    > enough, just like most Windows users and even Windows vendors. It's just
    > Microsoft being regarded as the untrustworthy and bullyish 800lb gorilla
    > by
    > quite a lot of people -- also non-OSS people.
    >

    Well you at least recognize the derogatory terms are indeed patronizing as
    well as childish and try to suggest that they are not applied to the users
    of Windows in general but rather to specific, though unreferenced posters of
    information, but that is a transparently weak attempt at trying to avoid the
    charge. The internet is rife with such references directed at Windows users
    in general, for example:

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...&defid=2071502

    Around here I refer you to the collected works of such as 7, chrisv,
    billposter, kohlman, and numerous others.


  15. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...


    "Richard Rasker" wrote in message
    news:490ae2c6$0$726$7ade8c0d@textreader.nntp.inter nl.net...
    >
    > Then we have good 'ole Doo "you're a liar!" FuS:
    > When I said that a friend of mine couldn't install XP on a Vista laptop
    > because of a lack of XP drivers for that hardware, his response was the
    > Wintroll classic "Liar!".


    The real fault here is a misapplication of how to fix the problem. You see
    it as a need for a driver, but that is far from the optimal. If the
    notebook works well with Vista, simply keep it. If you hate the security
    features and how they intrude on your use, disable them. If the machine
    doesn't perform with Vista as you expected, return it for a refund and buy
    another. It is not very smart to try to fix it yourself when the vendor is
    obligated to do it for you.




  16. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    amicus_curious wrote:

    >
    > "Richard Rasker" wrote in message
    > news:490ae2c6$0$726$7ade8c0d@textreader.nntp.inter nl.net...
    >>
    >> Then we have good 'ole Doo "you're a liar!" FuS:
    >> When I said that a friend of mine couldn't install XP on a Vista laptop
    >> because of a lack of XP drivers for that hardware, his response was the
    >> Wintroll classic "Liar!".

    >
    > The real fault here is a misapplication of how to fix the problem. You
    > see it as a need for a driver, but that is far from the optimal. If the
    > notebook works well with Vista, simply keep it. If you hate the security
    > features and how they intrude on your use, disable them. If the machine
    > doesn't perform with Vista as you expected, return it for a refund and buy
    > another. It is not very smart to try to fix it yourself when the vendor
    > is obligated to do it for you.


    Well, the notebook worked sort of OK with Vista, although the owner didn't
    like it much, and would much rather prefer XP.

    The trouble started when the user inadvertently nuked the HD's partition
    table in an attempt to create a separate partition for the storage of user
    data, using Partition Magic (IIRC).
    Being a long-time and fairly competent Windows user, he /had/ made a restore
    disk in advance for just this occasion, but turned out to be useless; it
    complained that the restore image couldn't be found on the HD -- no wonder,
    since the the disk was totally messed up in the first place. So much
    for "restore" disks.

    Then he asked for a real restore disk, first with the vendor, who referred
    him to HP; HP then told him several contradictory things -- that they
    couldn't send him a Vista restore disk because Microsoft didn't allow it;
    that they could only provide a restore disk within three months after
    purchase, but not in this case (the machine was some two months old); and
    later they said that they /would/ ship a restore disk, but that it could
    take a few weeks -- this was approximately six weeks ago now, but nothing
    has arrived so far, and HP still can't tell when or even if this elusive
    Vista disk will arrive. Their "best" advice was to shell out another $175
    for a retail version of Vista Premium.

    Then, after a few weeks of waiting in vain, the user tried installing XP,
    but that failed as well because of driver issues, right from step one
    (recognizing the HD). So at last, he asked me to install Linux, so that
    they at least would have a functional laptop. And sure enough, everything
    worked right away, except the wireless card -- for which there are no Linux
    drivers, so I had to seek out the XP drivers for use with ndiswrapper.

    The user would still have preferred XP for reasons of familiarity, but most
    definitely likes Mandriva better than Vista.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  17. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    amicus_curious wrote:

    >
    > "Richard Rasker" wrote in message
    > news:490b3310$0$725$7ade8c0d@textreader.nntp.inter nl.net...


    ....

    >> But to stick with the subject: I still haven't seen any conclusive
    >> evidence that OSS people generally think low of Windows users. If I
    >> Google for "Windows users are fools", I get less than a dozen hits -- and
    >> over half of these are supposedly quotes by people who don't actually
    >> think this themselves. OK, "Windows users are stupid" produces
    >> significantly more hits, but then again, so does "Linux users are
    >> stupid". So no, I don't think that OSS people on average look down on
    >> Windows users, any more than Windows people look down on Linux users.


    > Well you at least recognize the derogatory terms are indeed patronizing as
    > well as childish and try to suggest that they are not applied to the users
    > of Windows in general but rather to specific, though unreferenced posters
    > of information, but that is a transparently weak attempt at trying to
    > avoid the charge. The internet is rife with such references directed at
    > Windows users in general, for example:
    >
    > http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...&defid=2071502


    Sure, bigots can always be found if you look for them, but I don't think
    that the preference for one particular operating system has any
    significance here; so far, I see no evidence that OSS people look down on
    Windows users in significantly greater numbers than vice versa. The vast
    majority of OSS users are friendly, tolerant people -- and the same goes
    for Windows users. Or Mac users, for that matter.

    > Around here I refer you to the collected works of such as 7, chrisv,
    > billposter, kohlman, and numerous others.


    They're rather extreme in their language, but almost exclusively when
    addressing Wintr^H^H^H, erm, "enthusiastic Windows advocates", or talking
    about Microsoft. But even though they don't really show contempt for
    Windows users in general AFAICS, I can't say I approve of all this shouting
    and namecalling. From /both/ sides, that is.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  18. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    Richard Rasker wrote:

    > Rat wrote:
    >>
    >> Around here I refer you to the collected works of such as 7, chrisv,
    >> billposter, kohlman, and numerous others.

    >
    > They're rather extreme in their language, but almost exclusively when
    > addressing Wintr^H^H^H, erm, "enthusiastic Windows advocates", or talking
    > about Microsoft. But even though they don't really show contempt for
    > Windows users in general AFAICS,


    Precisely. Why, some of my best friends are Windwoes users. 8)

    The filthy lying rat knows exactly what he's done to earn our disrespect.
    The insulting lies he's spewed in this thread are hardly his first.


  19. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    Richard Rasker wrote:

    > But to stick with the subject: I still haven't seen any conclusive
    > evidence that OSS people generally think low of Windows users.


    Did you suddenly lose the ability to read?

    Linux assholes have been insulting Windows users forever





  20. Re: In this week's episode of "Put Up or Shut Up" ...

    DFS wrote:

    > Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> But to stick with the subject: I still haven't seen any conclusive
    >> evidence that OSS people generally think low of Windows users.

    >
    > Did you suddenly lose the ability to read?
    >
    > Linux assholes have been insulting Windows users forever


    Certainly. By simply existing. After all, it is real "insulting" to have
    people in plain view who are not as incredibly stupid as oneself, isn't it,
    DumbFull****?
    --
    Warning: 10 days have passed since your last Windows reinstall.


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