Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!! - Linux

This is a discussion on Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!! - Linux ; On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:30:26 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote: > Sorry Terry, Why are you sorry ? > > As much of a fan (and user) of Linux I am... perl, glade, gtk(2) are > all available for Windows. ...

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Thread: Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

  1. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:30:26 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:



    > Sorry Terry,


    Why are you sorry ?

    >
    > As much of a fan (and user) of Linux I am... perl, glade, gtk(2) are
    > all available for Windows. A Windows user could do the same thing.



    As easily as Linux?

    As Freely as Linux

    http://gtk2-perl.sourceforge.net/win32/

    Compiling

    Compiling from source on windows is no fun, but it is doable. You need
    Microsoft's compiler, cl.exe, and nmake.exe, since those are the tools
    used to build ActiveState's perl.exe. Compilers known to work: MSVC6,
    MSVC7, and the free non-optimizing compiler from microsoft.com (link?).


    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  2. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:30:26 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >> Sorry Terry,

    >
    > Why are you sorry ?
    >
    >> As much of a fan (and user) of Linux I am... perl, glade, gtk(2) are
    >> all available for Windows. A Windows user could do the same thing.

    >
    >
    > As easily as Linux?
    >
    > As Freely as Linux
    >
    > http://gtk2-perl.sourceforge.net/win32/
    >
    > Compiling
    >
    > Compiling from source on windows is no fun, but it is doable. You need
    > Microsoft's compiler, cl.exe, and nmake.exe, since those are the tools
    > used to build ActiveState's perl.exe. Compilers known to work: MSVC6,
    > MSVC7, and the free non-optimizing compiler from microsoft.com (link?).
    >
    >


    No need to compile anything... the binaries are there, ready to use. And
    yes, even on Windows those apps are free. Funny thing is, you could have
    written the same app in html/javascript and simply run the page from
    your local machine... no other software needed.

    --
    Norman
    Registered Linux user #461062

  3. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:56:15 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:

    > Terry Porter wrote:
    >> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:30:26 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> Sorry Terry,

    >>
    >> Why are you sorry ?
    >>
    >>> As much of a fan (and user) of Linux I am... perl, glade, gtk(2)
    >>> are
    >>> all available for Windows. A Windows user could do the same thing.

    >>
    >>
    >> As easily as Linux?
    >>
    >> As Freely as Linux
    >>
    >> http://gtk2-perl.sourceforge.net/win32/
    >>
    >> Compiling
    >>
    >> Compiling from source on windows is no fun, but it is doable. You need
    >> Microsoft's compiler, cl.exe, and nmake.exe, since those are the tools
    >> used to build ActiveState's perl.exe. Compilers known to work: MSVC6,
    >> MSVC7, and the free non-optimizing compiler from microsoft.com (link?).
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > No need to compile anything... the binaries are there, ready to use.


    You make it sound so easy.

    This is how one installs the complete apps on Linux, it fetches the
    programs and installs them, everything is done in the one line below ...

    "yum install perl-Gtk2-GladeXML"

    Perhaps you would be so kind as to show us all how you install the
    binaries on Windows.

    Please provide complete details from start to finish, as I have done
    above.

    Be sure to detail all the steps so that any Windows users reading this
    thread can write applications as easily as my example, using the same
    Linux tools in my thread.

    This shouldn't take you long as the "binaries are there, ready to use" as
    you said above. Besides, you make it sound so easy.

    > And
    > yes, even on Windows those apps are free.


    On Linux, they're Free.

    > Funny thing is, you could have
    > written the same app in html/javascript and simply run the page from
    > your local machine... no other software needed.


    I could have written them in just about any language I so desired (and
    was experienced in using that had the capability to do what I wanted),
    and Linux would have provided the tools for me for Free.

    I chose to use gtk2-perl in this case.

    In 1997, (11 YEARS ago) Steven K. Baum of the Texas A&M University found
    183 Programming Languages Available for Linux Platforms.

    http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/g...g-list/87.html

    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  4. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:56:15 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >
    >> Terry Porter wrote:
    >>> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:30:26 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Sorry Terry,
    >>> Why are you sorry ?
    >>>
    >>>> As much of a fan (and user) of Linux I am... perl, glade, gtk(2)
    >>>> are
    >>>> all available for Windows. A Windows user could do the same thing.
    >>>
    >>> As easily as Linux?
    >>>
    >>> As Freely as Linux
    >>>
    >>> http://gtk2-perl.sourceforge.net/win32/
    >>>
    >>> Compiling
    >>>
    >>> Compiling from source on windows is no fun, but it is doable. You need
    >>> Microsoft's compiler, cl.exe, and nmake.exe, since those are the tools
    >>> used to build ActiveState's perl.exe. Compilers known to work: MSVC6,
    >>> MSVC7, and the free non-optimizing compiler from microsoft.com (link?).
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >> No need to compile anything... the binaries are there, ready to use.

    >
    > You make it sound so easy.
    >
    > This is how one installs the complete apps on Linux, it fetches the
    > programs and installs them, everything is done in the one line below ...
    >
    > "yum install perl-Gtk2-GladeXML"
    >
    > Perhaps you would be so kind as to show us all how you install the
    > binaries on Windows.
    >
    > Please provide complete details from start to finish, as I have done
    > above.
    >
    > Be sure to detail all the steps so that any Windows users reading this
    > thread can write applications as easily as my example, using the same
    > Linux tools in my thread.
    >
    > This shouldn't take you long as the "binaries are there, ready to use" as
    > you said above. Besides, you make it sound so easy.
    >


    Ok, searching for 'gtk2 binaries' here are links I found on the first
    Google result page (I had to look it up just like a Windows user would
    since I don't use it):

    http://www.lostmind.de/gtk2-perl/
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wayne.keenan/gtk/

    Neither appear to be very daunting at all. And since they seem to do a
    good job of explaining what to do, I won't copy it here. The last time I
    fooled around with this stuff (couple years ago) I was using PHPGTK and
    Glade (on WinXP at the time). I didn't have any difficulty installing
    that either. Lets see, that was:

    1) install PHPGTK into its own folder,
    2) install Glade

    >> And
    >> yes, even on Windows those apps are free.

    >
    > On Linux, they're Free.


    what's the difference between free and Free? And your original post said
    nothing about how difficult it is or isn't to compile anything under any
    OS, only that you were using 'Free' Linux tools and soon the Windroids
    would be flaming you. All those tools are available on both Linux and
    Windows and cost the same, which is nothing.

    >
    >> Funny thing is, you could have
    >> written the same app in html/javascript and simply run the page from
    >> your local machine... no other software needed.

    >
    > I could have written them in just about any language I so desired (and
    > was experienced in using that had the capability to do what I wanted),
    > and Linux would have provided the tools for me for Free.
    >
    > I chose to use gtk2-perl in this case.
    >
    > In 1997, (11 YEARS ago) Steven K. Baum of the Texas A&M University found
    > 183 Programming Languages Available for Linux Platforms.
    >
    > http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/g...g-list/87.html
    >


    What that has to do with anything I don't know, but the first two
    links that I clicked on returned a "Domain for sale" and a 404. The
    third link actually worked and listed Microsoft Windows as one of the
    many platforms it ran under.

    Your argument seems to say that the 'Free' tools you used were only
    available to you on Linux. And then a quote from your original post:

    "If they claim the same program is available for Windows, ask them to
    provide a *specific* URL."

    Seeing as how Glade and GTK are used to develop cross-platform apps
    and perl is available on Windows - you just wrote it... provide your own
    link here.

    --
    Norman
    Registered Linux user #461062

  5. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:03:24 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:

    > Terry Porter wrote:
    >> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:56:15 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>
    >>> Terry Porter wrote:
    >>>> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:30:26 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> Sorry Terry,
    >>>> Why are you sorry ?
    >>>>
    >>>>> As much of a fan (and user) of Linux I am... perl, glade, gtk(2)
    >>>>> are
    >>>>> all available for Windows. A Windows user could do the same thing.
    >>>>
    >>>> As easily as Linux?
    >>>>
    >>>> As Freely as Linux
    >>>>
    >>>> http://gtk2-perl.sourceforge.net/win32/
    >>>>
    >>>> Compiling
    >>>>
    >>>> Compiling from source on windows is no fun, but it is doable. You
    >>>> need Microsoft's compiler, cl.exe, and nmake.exe, since those are the
    >>>> tools used to build ActiveState's perl.exe. Compilers known to work:
    >>>> MSVC6, MSVC7, and the free non-optimizing compiler from microsoft.com
    >>>> (link?).
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> No need to compile anything... the binaries are there, ready to use.

    >>
    >> You make it sound so easy.
    >>
    >> This is how one installs the complete apps on Linux, it fetches the
    >> programs and installs them, everything is done in the one line below
    >> ...
    >>
    >> "yum install perl-Gtk2-GladeXML"
    >>
    >> Perhaps you would be so kind as to show us all how you install the
    >> binaries on Windows.
    >>
    >> Please provide complete details from start to finish, as I have done
    >> above.
    >>
    >> Be sure to detail all the steps so that any Windows users reading this
    >> thread can write applications as easily as my example, using the same
    >> Linux tools in my thread.
    >>
    >> This shouldn't take you long as the "binaries are there, ready to use"
    >> as you said above. Besides, you make it sound so easy.
    >>
    >>

    > Ok, searching for 'gtk2 binaries' here are links I found on the first
    > Google result page (I had to look it up just like a Windows user would
    > since I don't use it):
    >
    > http://www.lostmind.de/gtk2-perl/
    > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wayne.keenan/gtk/
    >
    > Neither appear to be very daunting at all. And since they seem to do a
    > good job of explaining what to do, I won't copy it here.


    Neither would I, the first one is a long page of instructions including
    *two* cli commands, which I doubt the average Windows user may
    appreciate ?!
    a) Open a commandline window and add this site to the repositories.
    ppm repo add http://www.lostmind.de/gtk2-perl/ppm/
    Now open a commandline window, navigate to the directory where you have
    extracted the packages and install them.
    ppm install Packagename.ppd

    The second one is nearly as complex.

    Norman, I'm just not convinced that the Windows 'offerings' whilst 'being
    available' are at all easy for Windows users to install.


    > The last time I
    > fooled around with this stuff (couple years ago) I was using PHPGTK and
    > Glade (on WinXP at the time). I didn't have any difficulty installing
    > that either. Lets see, that was:
    >
    > 1) install PHPGTK into its own folder, 2) install Glade
    >
    >>> And
    >>> yes, even on Windows those apps are free.

    >>
    >> On Linux, they're Free.

    >
    > what's the difference between free and Free?


    One is Free as in Liberty, the other is free as in "free beer'.

    > And your original post said
    > nothing about how difficult it is or isn't to compile anything under any
    > OS, only that you were using 'Free' Linux tools and soon the Windroids
    > would be flaming you.


    We have both expanded on my original post, you for instance suggesting I
    should use Java etc.

    > All those tools are available on both Linux and
    > Windows and cost the same, which is nothing.


    Ok, but being 'available' does not mean they are as easy to get, install
    and use as on Linux as I point out above.

    >
    >
    >>> Funny thing is, you could have
    >>> written the same app in html/javascript and simply run the page from
    >>> your local machine... no other software needed.

    >>
    >> I could have written them in just about any language I so desired (and
    >> was experienced in using that had the capability to do what I wanted),
    >> and Linux would have provided the tools for me for Free.
    >>
    >> I chose to use gtk2-perl in this case.
    >>
    >> In 1997, (11 YEARS ago) Steven K. Baum of the Texas A&M University
    >> found 183 Programming Languages Available for Linux Platforms.
    >>
    >> http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/g...g-list/87.html
    >>
    >>

    > What that has to do with anything I don't know,


    You suggested I could have used Java instead, I'm pointing out that I
    could have probably used any of the 183 other programming languages on
    Linux.

    Java and html are not what I consider to be the *one* programming
    language for all tasks.


    > but the first two
    > links that I clicked on returned a "Domain for sale" and a 404. The
    > third link actually worked and listed Microsoft Windows as one of the
    > many platforms it ran under.


    It's an old article, I used it because the author found 183 Programming
    Languages Available for Linux Platforms in 1997.

    Of course Link rot will be a factor here.

    >
    > Your argument seems to say that the 'Free' tools you used were only
    > available to you on Linux. And then a quote from your original post:
    >
    > "If they claim the same program is available for Windows, ask them to
    > provide a *specific* URL."


    If you're a Wintroll, you're the first reasonable one I've seen on COLA
    this time around

    You think have clearly shown that the programs in my post are available
    for Windows.

    I think have shown that they are not trivial to install, and in no way
    compete with the ease of installing Linux Apps on Linux.


    I think that when you claim "As much of a fan (and user) of Linux I am...
    perl, glade, gtk(2) are all available for Windows. A Windows user could
    do the same thing."

    I think you should add the following disclaimer:-
    "However as they are not native Windows apps and as most were developed
    on Linux for Linux, the installation of these applications on Windows may
    not be trivial"




    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  6. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On 2008-10-28, Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 01:39:55 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:


    > Also, please stop claiming that GTK was designed to be cross platform, it
    > wasn't.
    >
    > GTK+ was started as toolkit for the GIMP around 96 and reached its first
    > stable release in April 98. GTK+ 1.0 contained the basic widgets that
    > were needed to support the GIMP.
    >
    > http://people.redhat.com/mclasen/Use...notes/x29.html


    Oh dear! Have I been using the Gimp Tool Kit for _that_ long?

    I'm getting old.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  7. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:



    > http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/

    Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg

    Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    working because either:
    1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source)
    2) Wget doesnt work properly in the windows version ? or
    3) XP is running in a VM on Linux and networking isnt set up properly ? or
    4) both of the above ?

    Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to have
    to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box and really
    find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3 running under Windows.

    Not looking forward to playing with toys-r-us again.

    Terry


    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  8. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    Norman Peelman wrote:
    > Terry Porter wrote:


    >> Saying it's available for Windows, and actually *getting* it running
    >> on Windows are two different things.
    >>

    >
    > I followed the instructions on this page:
    >
    > http://www.lostmind.de/gtk2-perl/
    >
    > Under 'Installation instructions' I followed plan b). I tried plan a)
    > but a dependency is out of wack. No big deal, things like that can
    > happen in Linux too. I didn't download any of the demos, just your
    > program. So for the record:
    >
    > 1) d/l ActiveState Perl 5.8.8 build 819
    > 2) d/l GTK+/Win32 Runtime Environment Installer 2.8.20-1
    > 3) d/l Glade 3.0.2
    > 4) d/l the 6 binary packages
    > 5) d/l the missing msvcr71.dll -> windows/system32
    > 6) installed all in that order
    > 7) ran your program
    >
    > ...additionally, for that extra 1%, I d/lded and installed both 'wget'
    > and 'cat' for Win32 so as to not touch your code.
    >
    > http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/p...creenshot2.jpg
    >
    > A longer install process, sure. Unbearable, absolutely not. Now you
    > can tell your friends they can use your app.



    And thanks to you, Norm, I can tell the Terry Porter bozo to kiss my tight
    Windows-using ass.

    It only took about a week for Porter to become the AWMOW (advocate who's
    most often wrong). Previous AWMOW were Liam Slider and Gordon.




  9. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/

    > Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >
    > Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    > working because either:
    > 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source)


    Why are you using wget in your source? If you are coding with perl then
    you should use an html parser like HTML::TokeParser::Simple. It will
    fetch your file from the URL specified and load it up into a perl hash
    (in reality it's a blessed perl object). It's as simple as:

    use HTML::TokeParser::Simple;

    my $htmltokens = HTML::TokeParser::Simple->new( url => "auspost.whatever" );

    ================================================== =========================

    It's elegant and it just works.

    On Gentoo you install it by:

    GentooPenguin# eix tokeparser

    * dev-perl/HTML-TokeParser-Simple
    Available versions: 3.15
    Homepage: http://search.cpan.org/~ovid/
    Description: A bare-bones HTML parser, similar to
    HTML::Parser, but with a couple important distinctions.



    I suppose if you were using windows you could get it from CPAN, but I'm
    not sure if it handles dependencies it's been that long since I've had
    to use it.

    GentooPenguin# emerge HTML-TokeParser-Simple

    ================================================== ====================

    > Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to have
    > to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box and really
    > find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3 running under Windows.
    >




    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  10. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/

    > Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >
    > Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    > working because either:
    > 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source)
    > 2) Wget doesnt work properly in the windows version ? or
    > 3) XP is running in a VM on Linux and networking isnt set up properly ? or
    > 4) both of the above ?
    >
    > Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to have
    > to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box and really
    > find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3 running under Windows.
    >
    > Not looking forward to playing with toys-r-us again.
    >
    > Terry
    >
    >


    Thank you. It was the non-existance of 'wget' and 'cat' on my XP
    install... had to take a quick look at your code to see how you were
    actually retrieving the info. Just out of curiosity, doesn't perl (i'm
    not versed in perl) have a way to read a file from a url natively?

    Use the page I gave, just follow plan B.

    --
    Norman
    Registered Linux user #461062

  11. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 23:55:21 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:


    >> Sadly you have never posted the steps to make this happen in this
    >> thread, so people reading are still clueless how you get there from
    >> Windows.
    >>
    >> They can't just do a :-
    >> "yum install perl-Gtk2-GladeXML" at the cli
    >>
    >> to make it all happen. Shame as I know Windows users who would love to
    >> run Auspost3 under Windows, but *can't*.
    >>
    >> Saying it's available for Windows, and actually *getting* it running on
    >> Windows are two different things.
    >>
    >>

    > I followed the instructions on this page:
    >
    > http://www.lostmind.de/gtk2-perl/
    >
    > Under 'Installation instructions' I followed plan b). I tried plan a)
    > but a dependency is out of wack. No big deal, things like that can
    > happen in Linux too. I didn't download any of the demos, just your
    > program. So for the record:
    >
    > 1) d/l ActiveState Perl 5.8.8 build 819 2) d/l GTK+/Win32 Runtime
    > Environment Installer 2.8.20-1 3) d/l Glade 3.0.2
    > 4) d/l the 6 binary packages
    > 5) d/l the missing msvcr71.dll -> windows/system32 6) installed all in
    > that order
    > 7) ran your program
    >
    > ...additionally, for that extra 1%, I d/lded and installed both 'wget'
    > and 'cat' for Win32 so as to not touch your code.
    >
    > http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/

    Auspost3_Screenshot2.jpg

    Norm, I'm impressed.

    >
    > A longer install process, sure. Unbearable, absolutely not. Now you
    > can tell your friends they can use your app.


    Ok, you win your point, Windows can run my app. I concede to you



    > The only reason I have XP loaded (in VM) is to test websites against IE.


    Fair enough, one has to get along with Windows in most places, as it's
    endemic.

    Apologies for accusing you of being a Windows Apologist, COLA is a rough
    place, and I obviously screwed up



    >> True, but that doesn't make your comment that "GTK was designed to be
    >> cross platform" true. No biggie to me, just thought I'd point that out.
    >>
    >>

    > Maybe not at the point of conception... but obviously it's direction
    > changed early in life. I suppose I should say that it is promoted for
    > creating cross-platform apps.


    It may be now, not that I've seen that myself. Not everybody wants their
    apps to run on Windows.

    Tho I must admit Auspost3 does look nice under XP, compared to my very
    lacklustre (but functional) IceWM, but then I'm an impatient speed addict
    who wants instant response from his workstation.

    Linux gronk1 2.6.23-gentoo-r8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Jun 7 01:24:52 EST 2008
    i686 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux



    Thanks again for pointing out my errors, I'll have to work harder on my
    posts in future!

    Cheers
    Terry




    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  12. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:23:15 +0000, Gregory Shearman wrote:

    > On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    >> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/

    >> Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >>
    >> Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    >> working because either:
    >> 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source)

    >
    > Why are you using wget in your source?


    As an electronics tech, I'm a lousy coder, but I tried to reuse utilities
    I felt would be on all Linux boxes.

    I love utilising Linux utilities via the Perl system command.

    I bet more Linux boxes have wget than HTML::TokeParser::Simple ?
    (not that I knew HTML::TokeParser::Simple existed, thanks!)

    > If you are coding with perl then
    > you should use an html parser like HTML::TokeParser::Simple. It will
    > fetch your file from the URL specified and load it up into a perl hash
    > (in reality it's a blessed perl object). It's as simple as:
    >
    > use HTML::TokeParser::Simple;
    >
    > my $htmltokens = HTML::TokeParser::Simple->new( url =>
    > "auspost.whatever" );


    Ok, I'll give it a try. I might have to learn OO first to.

    >
    >

    ================================================== =========================
    >
    > It's elegant and it just works.
    >
    > On Gentoo you install it by:
    >
    > GentooPenguin# eix tokeparser


    Done!
    gronk1 mnt # emerge dev-perl/HTML-TokeParser-Simple

    These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

    Calculating dependencies... done!
    [ebuild N ] dev-perl/Sub-Override-0.08 6 kB
    [ebuild N ] dev-perl/HTML-TokeParser-Simple-3.15 16 kB

    Total: 2 packages (2 new), Size of downloads: 22 kB

    Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No]

    How easy is that ?

    >
    > * dev-perl/HTML-TokeParser-Simple
    > Available versions: 3.15
    > Homepage: http://search.cpan.org/~ovid/

    Description:
    > A bare-bones HTML parser, similar to
    > HTML::Parser, but with a couple important distinctions.
    >
    >
    >
    > I suppose if you were using windows you could get it from CPAN, but I'm
    > not sure if it handles dependencies it's been that long since I've had
    > to use it.
    >
    > GentooPenguin# emerge HTML-TokeParser-Simple
    >
    > ================================================== ====================
    >
    >> Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to
    >> have to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box and
    >> really find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3 running
    >> under Windows.
    >>
    >>

    >


    I know, I'm not looking forward to it as the last time I had Windows on
    my workstation was 1997, yes it was *really* that long ago.

    It was Windows95 and I got $50 for the CD when I sold it after switching
    to Linux full time in August 1997.

    The BSAA was 'dropping in' on business in Western Australia at the time,
    and anyone who had a legit CD with the holographic stuff only had to
    answer one of the 'Windows95 genuine CDs wanted" adverts to sell theirs.


    I guess if I install it in a VM I can just remove the image to a cd
    afterwards, and un-pollute my Linux system







    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  13. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:23:15 +0000, Gregory Shearman wrote:
    >
    >> On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/
    >>> Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >>>
    >>> Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    >>> working because either:
    >>> 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source)

    >>
    >> Why are you using wget in your source?

    >
    > As an electronics tech, I'm a lousy coder, but I tried to reuse utilities
    > I felt would be on all Linux boxes.


    Hmmm.... perl is installed on every linux box. The modules are all
    available usually through your distro and are very small.

    > I love utilising Linux utilities via the Perl system command.


    Then stop it! It is very inefficient, plus your code is uninterruptable
    during a "system" call.... starting a whole new process merely to grab
    an url... what's the world coming to???

    Perl provides the tools to access just about every system function
    without ever having to call "system". You can get access to the basic C
    system functions by:

    use POSIX;

    or if you only want to use one function:

    use POSIX qw(strftime);

    It's regular expression handling is second to none.

    Access to my postgresql database (on a central server) has never been
    easier than with perl. I can even write postgresql procedures in perl.

    > I bet more Linux boxes have wget than HTML::TokeParser::Simple ?


    But it's dead easy to obtain and install, even without the help of your
    distro.

    > (not that I knew HTML::TokeParser::Simple existed, thanks!)


    No worries.

    >> If you are coding with perl then
    >> you should use an html parser like HTML::TokeParser::Simple. It will
    >> fetch your file from the URL specified and load it up into a perl hash
    >> (in reality it's a blessed perl object). It's as simple as:
    >>
    >> use HTML::TokeParser::Simple;
    >>
    >> my $htmltokens = HTML::TokeParser::Simple->new( url =>
    >> "auspost.whatever" );

    >
    > Ok, I'll give it a try. I might have to learn OO first to.


    Oh dear! May I recommend:

    perlboot Perl OO tutorial for beginners
    perltoot Perl OO tutorial, part 1
    perltooc Perl OO tutorial, part 2
    perlbot Perl OO tricks and examples


    Just do (for example):

    GentooPenguin$ man perlboot

    Nothing easier. Makes your code both readable and reusable.

    >>> Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to
    >>> have to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box and
    >>> really find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3 running
    >>> under Windows.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>

    >
    > I know, I'm not looking forward to it as the last time I had Windows on
    > my workstation was 1997, yes it was *really* that long ago.


    Earlier for me. I went from MSDOS to OS2 to windows 3.1 and then 95...
    which was the last straw. Blue screen hell. Dumped it for Linux and
    haven't looked back: Redhat 5.x, 6.x, 9 and then Linux from Scratch and
    finally Gentoo.

    > I guess if I install it in a VM I can just remove the image to a cd
    > afterwards, and un-pollute my Linux system


    GentooPenguin$ man shred

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  14. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:29:27 -0500, DFS wrote:

    > Norman Peelman wrote:
    >> Terry Porter wrote:

    >
    >>> Saying it's available for Windows, and actually *getting* it running
    >>> on Windows are two different things.
    >>>

    >>
    >> I followed the instructions on this page:
    >>
    >> http://www.lostmind.de/gtk2-perl/
    >>
    >> Under 'Installation instructions' I followed plan b). I tried plan a)
    >> but a dependency is out of wack. No big deal, things like that can
    >> happen in Linux too. I didn't download any of the demos, just your
    >> program. So for the record:
    >>
    >> 1) d/l ActiveState Perl 5.8.8 build 819
    >> 2) d/l GTK+/Win32 Runtime Environment Installer 2.8.20-1
    >> 3) d/l Glade 3.0.2
    >> 4) d/l the 6 binary packages
    >> 5) d/l the missing msvcr71.dll -> windows/system32
    >> 6) installed all in that order
    >> 7) ran your program
    >>
    >> ...additionally, for that extra 1%, I d/lded and installed both 'wget'
    >> and 'cat' for Win32 so as to not touch your code.
    >>
    >> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/p...creenshot2.jpg
    >>
    >> A longer install process, sure. Unbearable, absolutely not. Now you
    >> can tell your friends they can use your app.

    >
    >
    > And thanks to you, Norm, I can tell the Terry Porter bozo to kiss my tight
    > Windows-using ass.
    >
    > It only took about a week for Porter to become the AWMOW (advocate who's
    > most often wrong). Previous AWMOW were Liam Slider and Gordon.


    Terry Porter is "The Keystone Cops" and "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot
    Straight" all rolled into one.

    The guy is just a boob which is why he was laughed out of COLA the last
    time he was here.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  15. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 06:25:02 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:

    > Terry Porter wrote:
    >> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/

    >> Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >>
    >> Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    >> working because either:
    >> 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source) 2) Wget doesnt
    >> work properly in the windows version ? or 3) XP is running in a VM on
    >> Linux and networking isnt set up properly ? or 4) both of the above ?
    >>
    >> Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to
    >> have to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box and
    >> really find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3 running
    >> under Windows.
    >>
    >> Not looking forward to playing with toys-r-us again.
    >>
    >> Terry
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > Thank you. It was the non-existance of 'wget' and 'cat' on my XP
    > install... had to take a quick look at your code to see how you were
    > actually retrieving the info. Just out of curiosity, doesn't perl (i'm
    > not versed in perl) have a way to read a file from a url natively?


    Yes it does as I've just found our from Gregory Shearman!

    I was so excited (when I started programming in Perl) finding out how
    easy it was to use the Perl "system" command, I never looked past
    utilising the usual Linux utilities to do stuff.

    Looks like I'm moving up to stage 1.001 now will try and use Perl modules
    where I can.

    I don't know if that would make it any easier for Windows users to run my
    little Auspost3 compared to the utilities like Wget I'm using now ?


    >
    > Use the page I gave, just follow plan B.


    I will.

    More after its all set up.

    Thanks again
    Terry





    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  16. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:42:43 +0000, Gregory Shearman wrote:

    > On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    >> On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:23:15 +0000, Gregory Shearman wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    >>>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/
    >>>> Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >>>>
    >>>> Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    >>>> working because either:
    >>>> 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source)
    >>>
    >>> Why are you using wget in your source?

    >>
    >> As an electronics tech, I'm a lousy coder, but I tried to reuse
    >> utilities I felt would be on all Linux boxes.

    >
    > Hmmm.... perl is installed on every linux box. The modules are all
    > available usually through your distro and are very small.
    >
    >> I love utilising Linux utilities via the Perl system command.

    >
    > Then stop it! It is very inefficient, plus your code is uninterruptable
    > during a "system" call.... starting a whole new process merely to grab
    > an url... what's the world coming to???


    There should be a law against people like me programming!

    Cool, thanks for the info, I'll try to utilise Perl only modules in
    future.

    >
    > Perl provides the tools to access just about every system function
    > without ever having to call "system". You can get access to the basic C
    > system functions by:
    >
    > use POSIX;
    >
    > or if you only want to use one function:
    >
    > use POSIX qw(strftime);
    >
    > It's regular expression handling is second to none.


    Oh!

    >
    > Access to my postgresql database (on a central server) has never been
    > easier than with perl. I can even write postgresql procedures in perl.


    I have used Postgress for many years as its my favorite database, and
    plan to write a very handy app soon in Perl that will need to access
    Postgress, so your advice is very timely. Thanks

    >
    >> I bet more Linux boxes have wget than HTML::TokeParser::Simple ?

    >
    > But it's dead easy to obtain and install, even without the help of your
    > distro.


    I love using Cpan myself.

    >
    >> (not that I knew HTML::TokeParser::Simple existed, thanks!)

    >
    > No worries.
    >
    >>> If you are coding with perl then
    >>> you should use an html parser like HTML::TokeParser::Simple. It will
    >>> fetch your file from the URL specified and load it up into a perl hash
    >>> (in reality it's a blessed perl object). It's as simple as:
    >>>
    >>> use HTML::TokeParser::Simple;
    >>>
    >>> my $htmltokens = HTML::TokeParser::Simple->new( url =>
    >>> "auspost.whatever" );

    >>
    >> Ok, I'll give it a try. I might have to learn OO first to.

    >
    > Oh dear! May I recommend:
    >
    > perlboot Perl OO tutorial for beginners perltoot
    > Perl OO tutorial, part 1 perltooc Perl OO
    > tutorial, part 2 perlbot Perl OO tricks and
    > examples
    >
    >
    > Just do (for example):
    >
    > GentooPenguin$ man perlboot


    Oh excellent!
    Guess I better do man perlsub first


    >
    > Nothing easier. Makes your code both readable and reusable.


    I'm all for that.

    >
    >>>> Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to
    >>>> have to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box
    >>>> and really find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3
    >>>> running under Windows.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> I know, I'm not looking forward to it as the last time I had Windows on
    >> my workstation was 1997, yes it was *really* that long ago.

    >
    > Earlier for me. I went from MSDOS to OS2 to windows 3.1 and then 95...
    > which was the last straw. Blue screen hell. Dumped it for Linux and
    > haven't looked back: Redhat 5.x, 6.x, 9 and then Linux from Scratch and
    > finally Gentoo.


    A serious Linux user!

    I bought Ygdrassil Linux in 1993, it installed fine, ran my SB CD and
    sound card, X windows worked fine, tho would lock up now and again. It
    was all to different for me, so I started looking for books and shelved
    Linux till 1994 when I bought:-
    1) Unix for dummies
    2) Unux for the impatient (my favorite book, I have the 2nd rev now)

    I toyed with Linux from around 1994 ish, and in 1996 I bought Running
    Linux by O'Rielly, read it three times, then installed RH 4.2 which I ran
    in a separate hdd with Windows 95 until August 97 when I ditched Windows
    for good.

    From there it was Debian, Slackware, Gentoo.

    >
    >> I guess if I install it in a VM I can just remove the image to a cd
    >> afterwards, and un-pollute my Linux system

    >
    > GentooPenguin$ man shred


    hahahah.


    I agree. I do loathe and detest Windows these days, it a bloody blight on
    humanity.





    --
    Linux full time, on the desktop, since August 1997

  17. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 06:25:02 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >
    >> Terry Porter wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/
    >>> Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >>>
    >>> Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    >>> working because either:
    >>> 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source) 2) Wget doesnt
    >>> work properly in the windows version ? or 3) XP is running in a VM on
    >>> Linux and networking isnt set up properly ? or 4) both of the above ?
    >>>
    >>> Either way, you have made your point and it looks like I'm going to
    >>> have to set up my only copy of Windows (Win2k) in a VM on this box and
    >>> really find out whether it's easy, or hard to get Auspost3 running
    >>> under Windows.
    >>>
    >>> Not looking forward to playing with toys-r-us again.
    >>>
    >>> Terry
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Thank you. It was the non-existance of 'wget' and 'cat' on my XP
    >> install... had to take a quick look at your code to see how you were
    >> actually retrieving the info. Just out of curiosity, doesn't perl (i'm
    >> not versed in perl) have a way to read a file from a url natively?

    >
    > Yes it does as I've just found our from Gregory Shearman!
    >
    > I was so excited (when I started programming in Perl) finding out how
    > easy it was to use the Perl "system" command, I never looked past
    > utilising the usual Linux utilities to do stuff.
    >
    > Looks like I'm moving up to stage 1.001 now will try and use Perl modules
    > where I can.
    >
    > I don't know if that would make it any easier for Windows users to run my
    > little Auspost3 compared to the utilities like Wget I'm using now ?
    >


    Also take a look at:

    http://search.cpan.org/~gaas/libwww-...800/lib/LWP.pm

    or possibly just use sockets (extra programming though).

    At least to get started don't forget to d/l 'wget' and 'cat' for
    windows. Drop them both in system32.

    >
    >> Use the page I gave, just follow plan B.

    >
    > I will.
    >
    > More after its all set up.
    >
    > Thanks again
    > Terry
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


  18. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:42:43 +0000, Gregory Shearman wrote:
    >
    >> On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    >>> On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:23:15 +0000, Gregory Shearman wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    >>>>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:30:07 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp329/npeelman/
    >>>>> Auspost3_Screenshot.jpg
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Hey Norm, perhaps the networking part of Auspost3 in America isn't
    >>>>> working because either:
    >>>>> 1) Wget is timing out (easily fixed in my crappy source)
    >>>>
    >>>> Why are you using wget in your source?
    >>>
    >>> As an electronics tech, I'm a lousy coder, but I tried to reuse
    >>> utilities I felt would be on all Linux boxes.

    >>
    >> Hmmm.... perl is installed on every linux box. The modules are all
    >> available usually through your distro and are very small.
    >>
    >>> I love utilising Linux utilities via the Perl system command.

    >>
    >> Then stop it! It is very inefficient, plus your code is uninterruptable
    >> during a "system" call.... starting a whole new process merely to grab
    >> an url... what's the world coming to???

    >
    > There should be a law against people like me programming!


    Rubbish. Programming is for everyone, despite what trolls like Quark
    say. Some languages are so simple that anyone can use them. Bash script
    programming can be as complicated or as simple as you like.

    You simply need a bit of experience. That's how I've learned (I've done
    programming on VAX/VMS (Vax C, Fortran), MSDOS (Microsoft C and
    Assembler), Linux (Perl, SQL, C, C++, Java, Assembler).

    One of the main reasons I moved to Linux (apart from the BSOD) was the
    cost of programming on Windows and the NDA (which is no longer the
    case). All of the programming tools for linux were free, the OS code is
    open....

    > Cool, thanks for the info, I'll try to utilise Perl only modules in
    > future.


    I'm here to help! You'll find that your code runs quicker and leaner..
    which is especially important with Perl. Its runtime size is a behemoth compared
    to the same C progs.

    >> Access to my postgresql database (on a central server) has never been
    >> easier than with perl. I can even write postgresql procedures in perl.

    >
    > I have used Postgress for many years as its my favorite database, and
    > plan to write a very handy app soon in Perl that will need to access
    > Postgress, so your advice is very timely. Thanks


    You can either use the Pg module (on Gentoo it is dev-perl/pgperl) or
    the more generic Database access module DBI (dev-perl/DBI). Both are
    good, but the DBI interface allows you to use prepared statements
    whereas the Pg interface allows you to have asynchronous database
    access.

    >>> I bet more Linux boxes have wget than HTML::TokeParser::Simple ?

    >>
    >> But it's dead easy to obtain and install, even without the help of your
    >> distro.

    >
    > I love using Cpan myself.


    I get all my stuff through Gentoo's Portage these days. There's a very
    rare occasion when I have to access CPAN. I prefer my perl stuff to be
    updated automatically as I use it so much and it is a large part of the
    structure of my network.

    >>> Ok, I'll give it a try. I might have to learn OO first to.

    >>
    >> Oh dear! May I recommend:
    >>
    >> perlboot Perl OO tutorial for beginners perltoot
    >> Perl OO tutorial, part 1 perltooc Perl OO
    >> tutorial, part 2 perlbot Perl OO tricks and
    >> examples
    >>
    >>
    >> Just do (for example):
    >>
    >> GentooPenguin$ man perlboot

    >
    > Oh excellent!
    > Guess I better do man perlsub first


    Easy peasy. The best thing about perl subroutines is they can be either
    named or anonymous eg. sub { my $var = undef; $var = 0 };

    >>> I know, I'm not looking forward to it as the last time I had Windows on
    >>> my workstation was 1997, yes it was *really* that long ago.

    >>
    >> Earlier for me. I went from MSDOS to OS2 to windows 3.1 and then 95...
    >> which was the last straw. Blue screen hell. Dumped it for Linux and
    >> haven't looked back: Redhat 5.x, 6.x, 9 and then Linux from Scratch and
    >> finally Gentoo.

    >
    > A serious Linux user!


    Hmmm. Dunno about being serious. I think it's a hoot! There's always
    something to learn. I'm yet to get seriously into Python. I've started
    learning it but have yet to do anything "serious" with it. Scheme is
    another language that I've only just touched on.

    > I bought Ygdrassil Linux in 1993, it installed fine, ran my SB CD and
    > sound card, X windows worked fine, tho would lock up now and again. It
    > was all to different for me, so I started looking for books and shelved
    > Linux till 1994 when I bought:-
    > 1) Unix for dummies
    > 2) Unux for the impatient (my favorite book, I have the 2nd rev now)


    I cut my teeth on O'Reilly. It's good ****.

    > I toyed with Linux from around 1994 ish, and in 1996 I bought Running
    > Linux by O'Rielly, read it three times, then installed RH 4.2 which I ran
    > in a separate hdd with Windows 95 until August 97 when I ditched Windows
    > for good.


    Well, there you go... O'Reilly should be required reading for anyone
    wishing to administer Linux properly.

    > From there it was Debian, Slackware, Gentoo.
    >
    >>
    >>> I guess if I install it in a VM I can just remove the image to a cd
    >>> afterwards, and un-pollute my Linux system

    >>
    >> GentooPenguin$ man shred

    >
    > hahahah.
    >
    >
    > I agree. I do loathe and detest Windows these days, it a bloody blight on
    > humanity.


    What beats me up is that my wife runs a conservation group and writes an
    article for the local newspaper and for emailing to our members. She
    writes the article using OpenOffice (I don't use OpenOffice but she
    likes it) but is forced to save it in Microsoft Word format so that the
    newspaper can publish it. No ODF here! Microsoft's dominance is
    seriously holding back the free communication among the communities of
    the world.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  19. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 06:25:02 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >
    > I was so excited (when I started programming in Perl) finding out how
    > easy it was to use the Perl "system" command, I never looked past
    > utilising the usual Linux utilities to do stuff.
    >
    > Looks like I'm moving up to stage 1.001 now will try and use Perl modules
    > where I can.
    >
    > I don't know if that would make it any easier for Windows users to run my
    > little Auspost3 compared to the utilities like Wget I'm using now ?


    It should make things easier. Perl is probably far better integrated
    into a windows environment than wget.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  20. Re: Linux All The Tools You'll Ever Need, And They're Free!!

    Gregory Shearman wrote:
    > On 2008-10-29, Terry Porter wrote:
    >> On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 06:25:02 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>
    >> I was so excited (when I started programming in Perl) finding out how
    >> easy it was to use the Perl "system" command, I never looked past
    >> utilising the usual Linux utilities to do stuff.
    >>
    >> Looks like I'm moving up to stage 1.001 now will try and use Perl modules
    >> where I can.
    >>
    >> I don't know if that would make it any easier for Windows users to run my
    >> little Auspost3 compared to the utilities like Wget I'm using now ?

    >
    > It should make things easier. Perl is probably far better integrated
    > into a windows environment than wget.
    >


    'wget' and 'cat' for win32 were the only extras I needed to d/l and
    install to run Terrys' app. I didn't even know about them until I searched.

    --
    Norman
    Registered Linux user #461062

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