File Management - Linux

This is a discussion on File Management - Linux ; Remember all the flack I took for - correctly - noting that file management was a problem with the standard desktop metaphor that many people struggled with. I noted that OS X's media browser, which defines things as "Music" or ...

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  1. File Management

    Remember all the flack I took for - correctly - noting that file management
    was a problem with the standard desktop metaphor that many people struggled
    with. I noted that OS X's media browser, which defines things as "Music" or
    "Picture" makes more sense to a lot of people than the concept of a generic
    "File".

    Well, guess what! OSS folks are beginning to get that, too!

    <http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUI...e&do=get&targe
    t=organise_presentation.pdf>
    -----
    People think in Categories / "Drawers"
    * ODT File: Document
    * OGG File: Music
    -----

    More here:

    -----
    There¹s a revolution coming as we throw out the old ³files
    and folders² metaphor and leap to something new, and it would
    be phenomenal if free software were leading the way.

    I was struck by the number of different ways this meme
    cropped up.We had superb presentations of ³real life support
    problems² from a large-scale user of desktop Linux, and a
    persistent theme was ³where the hell did that file just go?²
    People save an attachment they receive in email, and an hour
    later have no idea where to find it. They import a picture
    into F-spot and then have no idea how to attach it to an
    email. They download a PDF from the web, then want to read it
    offline and can¹t remember where they put it
    -----

    Unless there is something brilliant they know that I do not, I will say I
    disagree a little here - I do not think one has to throw out the file /
    folder metaphor - it works well. But one can have alternate methods - akin
    to the "media browser" that work with the metaphor to not just offer an
    alternative (for novice and advanced users alike) but also helps educate new
    users about the abstractions they will find on the computer.

    More commentary on that page:
    -----
    My biggest concern on this front is that it be done in a way
    that every desktop environment can embrace. We need a
    consistent experience across GNOME, KDE, OpenOffice and
    Firefox so that content can flow from app to app in a
    seamless fashion and the user¹s expectations can be met no
    matter which app or environment they happen to use.
    -----

    What? Helping to build consistent user expectations! The horror!

    --
    "If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson




  2. Re: File Management

    Appil asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Snit
    wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Appil Department of Marketing:



    > Unless there is something brilliant they know that I do not,



    Just one word...

    ThisisaLinuxadvocacynewsgroupandyouneedtotakeyourf iletheoriestoappropriatenewsgroup.



  3. Re: File Management

    On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:47:07 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > Remember all the flack I took for - correctly - noting that file management
    > was a problem with the standard desktop metaphor that many people struggled
    > with. I noted that OS X's media browser, which defines things as "Music" or
    > "Picture" makes more sense to a lot of people than the concept of a generic
    > "File".
    >
    > Well, guess what! OSS folks are beginning to get that, too!
    >
    > <http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUI...e&do=get&targe
    > t=organise_presentation.pdf>
    > -----
    > People think in Categories / "Drawers"
    > * ODT File: Document
    > * OGG File: Music
    > -----
    >
    > More here:
    >
    > -----
    > There¹s a revolution coming as we throw out the old ³files
    > and folders² metaphor and leap to something new, and it would
    > be phenomenal if free software were leading the way.
    >
    > I was struck by the number of different ways this meme
    > cropped up.We had superb presentations of ³real life support
    > problems² from a large-scale user of desktop Linux, and a
    > persistent theme was ³where the hell did that file just go?²
    > People save an attachment they receive in email, and an hour
    > later have no idea where to find it. They import a picture
    > into F-spot and then have no idea how to attach it to an
    > email. They download a PDF from the web, then want to read it
    > offline and can¹t remember where they put it
    > -----
    >
    > Unless there is something brilliant they know that I do not, I will say I
    > disagree a little here - I do not think one has to throw out the file /
    > folder metaphor - it works well. But one can have alternate methods - akin
    > to the "media browser" that work with the metaphor to not just offer an
    > alternative (for novice and advanced users alike) but also helps educate new
    > users about the abstractions they will find on the computer.
    >
    > More commentary on that page:
    > -----
    > My biggest concern on this front is that it be done in a way
    > that every desktop environment can embrace. We need a
    > consistent experience across GNOME, KDE, OpenOffice and
    > Firefox so that content can flow from app to app in a
    > seamless fashion and the user¹s expectations can be met no
    > matter which app or environment they happen to use.
    > -----
    >
    > What? Helping to build consistent user expectations! The horror!


    What do expect from the freetards?

    Do they EVER come up with an original idea?
    Just about everything Linux has been lifted from some other OS.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  4. Re: File Management

    "7" stated in post
    OYJMk.77555$E41.48899@text.news.virginmedia.com on 10/25/08 11:55 AM:

    > Appil asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Snit
    > wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Appil Department of Marketing:
    >
    >
    >
    >> Unless there is something brilliant they know that I do not,

    >
    >
    > Just one word...
    >
    > ThisisaLinuxadvocacynewsgroupandyouneedtotakeyourf iletheoriestoappropriatenews
    > group.


    Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    seriously, how could you not know that?



    --
    The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem of
    limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small children and
    great nations. - David Friedman


  5. Re: File Management

    "Moshe Goldfarb." stated in post
    wqhog5r679j4.1gpegtjb3wm4h$.dlg@40tude.net on 10/25/08 12:04 PM:

    > On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 10:47:07 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >
    >> Remember all the flack I took for - correctly - noting that file management
    >> was a problem with the standard desktop metaphor that many people struggled
    >> with. I noted that OS X's media browser, which defines things as "Music" or
    >> "Picture" makes more sense to a lot of people than the concept of a generic
    >> "File".
    >>
    >> Well, guess what! OSS folks are beginning to get that, too!
    >>
    >> <http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUI...e&do=get&targe
    >> t=organise_presentation.pdf>
    >> -----
    >> People think in Categories / "Drawers"
    >> * ODT File: Document
    >> * OGG File: Music
    >> -----
    >>
    >> More here:
    >>
    >> -----
    >> There¹s a revolution coming as we throw out the old ³files
    >> and folders² metaphor and leap to something new, and it would
    >> be phenomenal if free software were leading the way.
    >>
    >> I was struck by the number of different ways this meme
    >> cropped up.We had superb presentations of ³real life support
    >> problems² from a large-scale user of desktop Linux, and a
    >> persistent theme was ³where the hell did that file just go?²
    >> People save an attachment they receive in email, and an hour
    >> later have no idea where to find it. They import a picture
    >> into F-spot and then have no idea how to attach it to an
    >> email. They download a PDF from the web, then want to read it
    >> offline and can¹t remember where they put it
    >> -----
    >>
    >> Unless there is something brilliant they know that I do not, I will say I
    >> disagree a little here - I do not think one has to throw out the file /
    >> folder metaphor - it works well. But one can have alternate methods - akin
    >> to the "media browser" that work with the metaphor to not just offer an
    >> alternative (for novice and advanced users alike) but also helps educate new
    >> users about the abstractions they will find on the computer.
    >>
    >> More commentary on that page:
    >> -----
    >> My biggest concern on this front is that it be done in a way
    >> that every desktop environment can embrace. We need a
    >> consistent experience across GNOME, KDE, OpenOffice and
    >> Firefox so that content can flow from app to app in a
    >> seamless fashion and the user¹s expectations can be met no
    >> matter which app or environment they happen to use.
    >> -----
    >>
    >> What? Helping to build consistent user expectations! The horror!

    >
    > What do expect from the freetards?
    >
    > Do they EVER come up with an original idea?
    > Just about everything Linux has been lifted from some other OS.


    I am not saying desktop Linux should do it the way Apple does... or MS or
    anyone else. But people in the OSS world are now talking about the problems
    that the OS X media browser addresses.

    Much as Apple's "private browsing" was an atrocity until Firefox adopted it,
    alternate file metaphors will be absurd and useless until Linux gets them...
    completely predictable.

    I love 7's reply, by the way: he could not even figure out that Ubuntu and
    Gnome are relevant to Linux. Amazing.


    --
    I think we [the folks who make Linux desktops] don't yet deliver a good
    enough user experience.
    - Mark Shuttleworth (founded Canonical Ltd. / Ubuntu Linux)


  6. Re: File Management

    Snit wrote:

    > Remember all the flack I took for - correctly - noting that file management
    > was a problem with the standard desktop metaphor that many people struggled
    > with.


    No, I don't. It must have been buried in a pile of "I agree with you,
    Hadron/DFS/Moshe" and "I'm smarter than everyone else" and "Stop picking on
    me" posts of the type you usually generate.
    --
    Regards,
    [tv]

    ....No way I'm going to use an offline reader! Well, okay.

  7. Re: File Management

    "Tattoo Vampire" stated in post
    8dp72m9rggdi$.dlg@this.domain.or.that on 10/25/08 2:11 PM:

    > Snit wrote:
    >
    >> Remember all the flack I took for - correctly - noting that file management
    >> was a problem with the standard desktop metaphor that many people struggled
    >> with.

    >
    > No, I don't.


    Oh well.

    > It must have been buried in a pile of "I agree with you, Hadron/DFS/Moshe" and
    > "I'm smarter than everyone else" and "Stop picking on me" posts of the type
    > you usually generate.


    You are, of course, insane. In any case, the main place where Hadron has
    jumped in to agree with me is over UI issues, such as with the file
    management debates... where I was clearly correct. Funny how you claim to
    remember him agreeing with me but you forget what he was agreeing with me
    about. That says a lot about your focus - you do not care about the topic
    of discussion but about who is agreeing with whom. Frankly I could not care
    less about that: in COLA I want to talk about Linux and not your silly
    battles and coalitions. Frankly such BS bores me.

    --
    It usually takes me more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu
    speech. -- Mark Twain


  8. Re: File Management

    Snit wrote:

    > in COLA I want to talk about Linux


    I will tell you this right to your electronic face: You're a no-good liar,
    Michael. And a coward to boot. And did I mention you're a troll?
    --
    Regards,
    [tv]

    ...."Hi, Don, please stop." - Michael Glasser to me over the telephone

  9. Re: File Management

    On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:

    > Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    > seriously, how could you not know that?


    Sad, but true... :-(

  10. Re: File Management

    "Tattoo Vampire" stated in post
    1mhovcnw4046t.dlg@this.domain.or.that on 10/25/08 3:02 PM:

    > Snit wrote:
    >
    >> in COLA I want to talk about Linux

    >
    > I will tell you this right to your electronic face: You're a no-good liar,
    > Michael. And a coward to boot. And did I mention you're a troll?


    What you snipped:
    -----
    "Tattoo Vampire" stated in post
    8dp72m9rggdi$.dlg@this.domain.or.that on 10/25/08 2:11 PM:

    > Snit wrote:
    >
    >> Remember all the flack I took for - correctly - noting that file management
    >> was a problem with the standard desktop metaphor that many people struggled
    >> with.

    >
    > No, I don't.


    Oh well.

    > It must have been buried in a pile of "I agree with you, Hadron/DFS/Moshe" and
    > "I'm smarter than everyone else" and "Stop picking on me" posts of the type
    > you usually generate.


    You are, of course, insane. In any case, the main place where Hadron has
    jumped in to agree with me is over UI issues, such as with the file
    management debates... where I was clearly correct. Funny how you claim to
    remember him agreeing with me but you forget what he was agreeing with me
    about. That says a lot about your focus - you do not care about the topic
    of discussion but about who is agreeing with whom. Frankly I could not care
    less about that: in COLA I want to talk about Linux and not your silly
    battles and coalitions. Frankly such BS bores me.
    -----

    Now why do you insist on trying to start fights? I would prefer to talk
    about Linux. Your insults, frankly, are boring.


    --
    The answer to the water shortage is to dilute it.


  11. Re: File Management

    "TomB" stated in post
    HJMMk.114408$0t2.20478@newsfe29.ams2 on 10/25/08 3:04 PM:

    > On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >
    >> Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    >> seriously, how could you not know that?

    >
    > Sad, but true... :-(


    I have suspected for some time that "7" is not a native English speaker and
    is thus just very easily confused. I try to cut him some slack with his
    horrendous spelling and grammar and repeated signs of lack of comprehension
    - but those words should translate well in whatever his native tongue is...
    how could he miss them and think they were not tied to Linux?


    --
    Picture of a tuna soda: http://snipurl.com/f351
    Feel free to ask for the recipe.




  12. Re: File Management

    On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 12:22:31 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > I love 7's reply, by the way: he could not even figure out that Ubuntu and
    > Gnome are relevant to Linux. Amazing.


    7 is a complete moron.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  13. Re: File Management

    On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:19:33 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > Your insults, frankly, are boring.


    Then stop responding to them, bonehead.

  14. Re: File Management

    On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    > "TomB" stated in post
    > HJMMk.114408$0t2.20478@newsfe29.ams2 on 10/25/08 3:04 PM:
    >
    >> On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >>
    >>> Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    >>> seriously, how could you not know that?

    >>
    >> Sad, but true... :-(

    >
    > I have suspected for some time that "7" is not a native English speaker and
    > is thus just very easily confused. I try to cut him some slack with his
    > horrendous spelling and grammar and repeated signs of lack of comprehension
    > - but those words should translate well in whatever his native tongue is...
    > how could he miss them and think they were not tied to Linux?
    >
    >


    What I meant is that it's sad but true that Marky, Buntu and Gnome are
    relevant to Linux. I very often do not agree with their vision on how
    Linux should evolve...

    --
    Middle age is having a choice between two temptations and choosing the
    one that'll get you home earlier.
    ~ Dan Bennett

  15. Re: File Management

    Appil asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Snit
    wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Appil Department of Marketing:


    > "7" stated in post
    > OYJMk.77555$E41.48899@text.news.virginmedia.com on 10/25/08 11:55 AM:
    >
    >> Appil asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Snit
    >> wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Appil Department of Marketing:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> Unless there is something brilliant they know that I do not,

    >>
    >>
    >> Just one word...
    >>
    >>

    ThisisaLinuxadvocacynewsgroupandyouneedtotakeyourf iletheoriestoappropriatenews
    >> group.

    >
    > Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    > seriously, how could you not know that?



    Is that how *you* see your content spam post?



  16. Re: File Management

    "7" stated in post
    8sYMk.77784$E41.53963@text.news.virginmedia.com on 10/26/08 4:24 AM:

    ....
    >> Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    >> seriously, how could you not know that?

    >
    >
    > Is that how *you* see your content spam post?


    I was merely giving you a hint so you could understand your error. Did it
    help or are you still confused?



    --
    "If you have integrity, nothing else matters." - Alan Simpson




  17. Re: File Management

    "TomB" stated in post
    fXXMk.59960$qt6.24744@newsfe28.ams2 on 10/26/08 3:49 AM:

    > On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >> "TomB" stated in post
    >> HJMMk.114408$0t2.20478@newsfe29.ams2 on 10/25/08 3:04 PM:
    >>
    >>> On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >>>
    >>>> Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    >>>> seriously, how could you not know that?
    >>>
    >>> Sad, but true... :-(

    >>
    >> I have suspected for some time that "7" is not a native English speaker and
    >> is thus just very easily confused. I try to cut him some slack with his
    >> horrendous spelling and grammar and repeated signs of lack of comprehension
    >> - but those words should translate well in whatever his native tongue is...
    >> how could he miss them and think they were not tied to Linux?
    >>
    >>

    >
    > What I meant is that it's sad but true that Marky, Buntu and Gnome are
    > relevant to Linux. I very often do not agree with their vision on how
    > Linux should evolve...


    Where do you disagree?


    --
    Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
    --Albert Einstein


  18. Re: File Management

    After takin' a swig o' grog, TomB belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >> "TomB" stated in post
    >> HJMMk.114408$0t2.20478@newsfe29.ams2 on 10/25/08 3:04 PM:
    >>
    >>> On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >>>
    >>>> Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    >>>> seriously, how could you not know that?
    >>>
    >>> Sad, but true... :-(

    >>
    >> I have suspected for some time that "7" is not a native English speaker and
    >> is thus just very easily confused. I try to cut him some slack with his
    >> horrendous spelling and grammar and repeated signs of lack of comprehension
    >> - but those words should translate well in whatever his native tongue is...
    >> how could he miss them and think they were not tied to Linux?

    >
    > What I meant is that it's sad but true that Marky, Buntu and Gnome are
    > relevant to Linux. I very often do not agree with their vision on how
    > Linux should evolve...


    I find it pretty funny that people think the concept of the "file" will
    /ever/ go away. It's the only concept that covers the full terrain of
    computer usage, really.

    To lose that concept really puts the user at a disadvantage, even if the
    concepts of Music, Art, etc. are also helpful.

    --
    Whatever occurs from love is always beyond good and evil.
    -- Friedrich Nietzsche

  19. Re: File Management

    Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, TomB belched out
    > this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >>> "TomB" stated in post
    >>> HJMMk.114408$0t2.20478@newsfe29.ams2 on 10/25/08 3:04 PM:
    >>>
    >>>> On 2008-10-25, Snit was urged to write the following:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    >>>>> seriously, how could you not know that?
    >>>>
    >>>> Sad, but true... :-(
    >>>
    >>> I have suspected for some time that "7" is not a native English speaker
    >>> and
    >>> is thus just very easily confused. I try to cut him some slack with his
    >>> horrendous spelling and grammar and repeated signs of lack of
    >>> comprehension - but those words should translate well in whatever his
    >>> native tongue is... how could he miss them and think they were not tied
    >>> to Linux?

    >>
    >> What I meant is that it's sad but true that Marky, Buntu and Gnome are
    >> relevant to Linux. I very often do not agree with their vision on how
    >> Linux should evolve...

    >
    > I find it pretty funny that people think the concept of the "file" will
    > /ever/ go away. It's the only concept that covers the full terrain of
    > computer usage, really.


    It is also a concept which encompasses those other (sub-)concepts,
    like "music" etc
    To limit users directly by not using the file concept from the start, you
    get Snot Glassers "students".
    Those who cringe at the thought of a file, and cry in sheer terror
    when "folders" are mentioned

    > To lose that concept really puts the user at a disadvantage, even if the
    > concepts of Music, Art, etc. are also helpful.
    >


    Well, nimwits like that most incompetent "IT teacher" Snot Michael Glasser
    will never see the truth of that. They live from keeping their
    victims^H^H^H^H^H students stupid
    --
    Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware


  20. Re: File Management

    "Peter Köhlmann" stated in post
    49049e46$0$17386$9b4e6d93@newsspool1.arcor-online.net on 10/26/08 9:43 AM:

    ....
    >>>>>> Hint: Mark Shuttlewoth, Ubuntu, and Gnome are all relevant to Linux...
    >>>>>> seriously, how could you not know that?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Sad, but true... :-(
    >>>>>
    >>>> I have suspected for some time that "7" is not a native English speaker and
    >>>> is thus just very easily confused. I try to cut him some slack with his
    >>>> horrendous spelling and grammar and repeated signs of lack of comprehension
    >>>> - but those words should translate well in whatever his native tongue is...
    >>>> how could he miss them and think they were not tied to Linux?
    >>>>
    >>> What I meant is that it's sad but true that Marky, Buntu and Gnome are
    >>> relevant to Linux. I very often do not agree with their vision on how Linux
    >>> should evolve...
    >>>

    >> I find it pretty funny that people think the concept of the "file" will
    >> /ever/ go away. It's the only concept that covers the full terrain of
    >> computer usage, really.

    >
    > It is also a concept which encompasses those other (sub-)concepts,
    > like "music" etc


    To some extent... but with a different paradigm.

    > To limit users directly by not using the file concept from the start, you
    > get Snot Glassers "students".


    And then Peter starts spewing his insults. Oh well... once Linux grows to
    the point of having some soft of media browser suddenly Peter will brag
    about whatever benefits it has over the OS X implementation... assuming he
    can even figure out what those are (he is completely ignorant of OS X).

    > Those who cringe at the thought of a file, and cry in sheer terror
    > when "folders" are mentioned


    Can you show your lack of comprehension of the concept in discussion just a
    bit more. LOL!

    Come on, Peter... even OSS software folks are beginning to talk about the
    challenges I have been talking about for a long time... the very ones you
    have mocked for a long time. How long until you catch up with the OSS
    folks, no less me.

    >> To lose that concept really puts the user at a disadvantage, even if the
    >> concepts of Music, Art, etc. are also helpful.

    >
    > Well, nimwits like that most incompetent "IT teacher" Snot Michael Glasser
    > will never see the truth of that. They live from keeping their
    > victims^H^H^H^H^H students stupid


    Hey, Peter... read my reply to that... and my comments at the start of this
    thread. I am in complete agreement with idea of keeping files / folders
    around. You will make less of a fool of yourself if you can actually
    understand what you are arguing against. LOL!

    --
    Never stand between a dog and the hydrant. - John Peers


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