Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long) - Linux

This is a discussion on Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long) - Linux ; This has just appeared on my RSS feed from Linux.com: http://www.linux.com/feature/151215 Entitled Boycott Novell: Champion of freedom or den of paranoia? As a disabled Linux user, I read all the insults and personal attacks here in COLA daily, and sometimes ...

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

  1. Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    This has just appeared on my RSS feed from Linux.com:
    http://www.linux.com/feature/151215

    Entitled Boycott Novell: Champion of freedom or den of paranoia?

    As a disabled Linux user, I read all the insults and personal attacks
    here in COLA daily, and sometimes get some quite good information on
    the goings on in the Linux world. I find some people quite entertaining,
    some very confusing, and many more contradictory, especially Moshe, who
    for a short while actually used and quite liked Linux, but now apparently
    hates both it and now, like so many others in COLA, it's users.

    While I can understand the 'He said and I said' comments, and also the
    joys and pains of Linux (which I have undergone myself because of my
    needs), what I do not understand is why the hatred and posting of
    personal details of people here, has turned inwards to the extent that
    Linux sites and advocates are now attacking advocates.

    I use Linux for day to day use, have learnt from scratch, /and/ am
    severely partially sighted with many other disabilities. I choose Linux,
    but I have nothing against other operating systems - this is my choice,
    and I *was* proud to advocate Linux to others. I now believe that the
    root cause of many people turning away from Linux is not the operating
    system, it is other users who see newcomers as an annoyance, stupid.
    There is no advocate on this, or any other newsgroup, who was fully
    conversant with Linux from day one - you were all beginners at some
    point, and this attitude is a barrier to anyone new looking to learn.
    This, coupled with the infighting and a growing number within the Linux
    community turning in on itself, without any help from Windows or
    Microsoft supporters, will eventually kill Linux. So-called Linux
    advocates IMO, should be bloody ashamed of themselves. I like Linux, but
    it is my overwhelming conclusion that the community stinks and is on a
    course of self-destruction.

    Or is this, *honestly*, what some Linux users want? To be part of an
    elitist niche, where others are not welcome? No? Well it bloody well
    looks like it to me.

    What is going on? Would someone kindly explain it all to me, as it does
    look as if my journey with Linux is at an end. Not because of /it/,
    because of some of /you/.

    Tony(UK)

  2. Re: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:02:12 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:

    ..snipped for brevity
    > It's easy to just ignore issues that you don't want to know about and
    > don't want to care about. But just ignoring it won't make it disappear.
    >
    > By the way, as Brian Proffitt (LinuxToday executive editor) stated some
    > months ago, the Linux community was /never/ a 'happy family'. There was
    > always friction like this, so to accuse people or individual groups is
    > the wrong way to approach it.


    Thanks for the explanation, Roy.

    The bit about the Linux community never being a 'happy family' is because
    of what exactly? I am a member of the Mint, Ubuntu, and Pardus forums,
    and subscribe to debian, COLA, a.o.l.ubuntu, and pclinuxos newsgroups as
    well as researching quite extensively the Internet regarding Linux. I do
    this to learn the whole picture. In all areas I seem to look, Linux users
    range from tolerant to hostile regarding newcomers and each other, and in
    this newsgroup, almost all regular posters range from humorous to deep
    psychological problems. In some cases, Linux is treated in a derisory
    fashion.

    I stand by my accusations, as I do not understand how a group of
    individuals, some with great knowledge, can damage others commitment,
    personalities and enthusiasm to the extent that some wish others death,
    or post personal information about people's family. I simply do not
    understand them, and to say it has always been like this, so it will
    never change, is, to me, very wrong. Which way should someone like me
    approach it?

    I know I am not alone in this. A community is made up from many different
    persons, facets, but all with a common goal. That goal I feel, is to
    damage Linux beyond repair, then blame someone else for it's demise.

    Tell me otherwise.

    Tony(UK)




  3. Re: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    Tony(UK) wrote:

    > On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:02:12 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >
    > .snipped for brevity
    >> It's easy to just ignore issues that you don't want to know about and
    >> don't want to care about. But just ignoring it won't make it disappear.
    >>
    >> By the way, as Brian Proffitt (LinuxToday executive editor) stated some
    >> months ago, the Linux community was /never/ a 'happy family'. There was
    >> always friction like this, so to accuse people or individual groups is
    >> the wrong way to approach it.

    >
    > Thanks for the explanation, Roy.
    >
    > The bit about the Linux community never being a 'happy family' is because
    > of what exactly? I am a member of the Mint, Ubuntu, and Pardus forums,
    > and subscribe to debian, COLA, a.o.l.ubuntu, and pclinuxos newsgroups as
    > well as researching quite extensively the Internet regarding Linux. I do
    > this to learn the whole picture. In all areas I seem to look, Linux users
    > range from tolerant to hostile regarding newcomers and each other, and in
    > this newsgroup, almost all regular posters range from humorous to deep
    > psychological problems. In some cases, Linux is treated in a derisory
    > fashion.
    >
    > I stand by my accusations, as I do not understand how a group of
    > individuals, some with great knowledge, can damage others commitment,
    > personalities and enthusiasm to the extent that some wish others death,
    > or post personal information about people's family. I simply do not
    > understand them, and to say it has always been like this, so it will
    > never change, is, to me, very wrong. Which way should someone like me
    > approach it?
    >
    > I know I am not alone in this. A community is made up from many different
    > persons, facets, but all with a common goal. That goal I feel, is to
    > damage Linux beyond repair, then blame someone else for it's demise.
    >
    > Tell me otherwise.
    >
    > Tony(UK)


    Alas, Tony, I fear that you are referring to our common fallible human
    nature.

    To expect those of us who advocate Linux to be any different from the
    general run of mankind is about as unrealistic as to expect, say, the
    members of a church congregation to be less sinful than people in general.

    Each man kills the thing he loves, wrote Oscar Wilde, and I fear that he was
    right.

    --
    Facts are sacred ... but comment is free

  4. Re: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Tony(UK) belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > I know I am not alone in this. A community is made up from many different
    > persons, facets, but all with a common goal. That goal I feel, is to
    > damage Linux beyond repair, then blame someone else for it's demise.
    >
    > Tell me otherwise.


    COLA is not a community, so much as a bar or pub.

    --
    Successophobia: The fear that if one is successful, then one's personal
    needs will be forgotten and one will no longer have one's childish needs
    catered to. -- Douglas Coupland, "Generation X: Tales for an
    Accelerated Culture"

  5. Re: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    ____/ Tony(UK) on Saturday 25 October 2008 16:12 : \____

    > On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:02:12 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >
    > .snipped for brevity
    >> It's easy to just ignore issues that you don't want to know about and
    >> don't want to care about. But just ignoring it won't make it disappear.
    >>
    >> By the way, as Brian Proffitt (LinuxToday executive editor) stated some
    >> months ago, the Linux community was /never/ a 'happy family'. There was
    >> always friction like this, so to accuse people or individual groups is
    >> the wrong way to approach it.

    >
    > Thanks for the explanation, Roy.


    Watch the new comment there from Bruce, the writer:

    "Yes, in the past I have attacked Boycott Novell because of what I perceived as
    attempts to attack me.

    "However, if you can point to anything in the article that misrepresents
    Boycott Novell or shows my prejudice against it (and reporting other peoples'
    dislike doesn't count), then I would be interested to see it.

    "Anyway, at the risk of upsetting your world view, in the course of doing this
    article, I exchanged a couple of emails with Roy, and I believe that we are
    now on friendlier terms."

    This was said in response to someone who knows the history of the dispute and
    pointed this out. It's mainly about OOXML, which Bruce thought Groklaw and BN
    were wrong to discredit on the grounds that it would not help (defeeatism).


    > The bit about the Linux community never being a 'happy family' is because
    > of what exactly?



    Brian explained this very well back in May:

    http://www.linuxtoday.com/mailprint....19-26-OP-BZ-CY

    "Ever since I crashed a 451 Group event at the Open Source Business Conference
    last year in their San Francisco offices, I have kept more than half an eye
    their 451 CAOS Theory blog. I figure if someone's provided me with a really
    good cheese plate at a meeting I wasn't invited to, the least I could do is
    read their stuff. It's just good karma."

    "Normally I find the missives from the 451 crew pretty insightful. But in
    Matthew Aslett's recent post, "Trouble in Paradise?" I find I have to take
    some exception. Matt. Dude. It was never paradise.

    "Aslett raises the alarm that lately there has been a significant rise in
    animosity between the open source community the open source business vendors.
    The Sun/MySQL kerfuffle and Matt Asay's recent misconstrued "free-riding"
    remarks were the examples Aslett specifically pointed to as real problems
    between the community and the commercial interests. I can cite other instances
    that could be lent to Aslett's thesis: the ongoing vitriol between the
    community and... Sun, Novell, and (depending on the day of the week)
    Canonical."

    Further down the reasons are explained. A lot of it is constructive criticism.
    Watch how Canonical were pressured into contributing back their changes. It
    came through a dispute with Greg K-H.

    Think of it as open-source decision-making where people correct one another.
    There is no one company deciding on a direction without getting flak.


    > I am a member of the Mint, Ubuntu, and Pardus forums,
    > and subscribe to debian, COLA, a.o.l.ubuntu, and pclinuxos newsgroups as
    > well as researching quite extensively the Internet regarding Linux. I do
    > this to learn the whole picture. In all areas I seem to look, Linux users
    > range from tolerant to hostile regarding newcomers and each other, and in
    > this newsgroup, almost all regular posters range from humorous to deep
    > psychological problems. In some cases, Linux is treated in a derisory
    > fashion.



    That's true when it comes to Mac and Windows users too. A choice of an
    operating system has little to do with personal things. The 'opposing sides'
    love to paint a different picture though (just as they do in the elections as
    a form of smear). Here is how Microsoft put it (leaked memo):

    "Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental
    deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2."
    Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever. Make
    the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the mythology of
    the computer industry. We want to place selection pressure on those companies
    and individuals that show a genetic weakness for competitors' technologies, to
    make the industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over
    time."

    --Microsoft, internal documen


    > I stand by my accusations, as I do not understand how a group of
    > individuals, some with great knowledge, can damage others commitment,
    > personalities and enthusiasm to the extent that some wish others death,
    > or post personal information about people's family. I simply do not
    > understand them, and to say it has always been like this, so it will
    > never change, is, to me, very wrong. Which way should someone like me
    > approach it?



    Physical threats sound like the type of tactics Microsoft munchkins employed
    back in OS/2 days. The aggravation from the trolls in this newsgroup is
    intended to have a similar effect. Disclosure of people's address, for
    example, is a form of intimidation.


    > I know I am not alone in this. A community is made up from many different
    > persons, facets, but all with a common goal. That goal I feel, is to
    > damage Linux beyond repair, then blame someone else for it's demise.



    The code is shared by all and the umbrella is probably the licence. When
    patents were introduced into the equation (Novell-type deals), then GPLv3 came
    along to resolved this. Without vigilance, our sharing of code can be
    imperiled. A lot of top lawyers in Microsoft would do anything to spoil our
    code. Watch what SCO did...

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | while (!0==1) echo 'Bill Gates' > /dev/null
    http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Tasks: 140 total, 1 running, 139 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

    iEYEARECAAYFAkkDT6kACgkQU4xAY3RXLo7QXwCgj29CxcVIxs c7YoNG6yd4mqa5
    hIMAn2zW3iY0+pyFEj3CSa1ywUTBgPz1
    =tCVv
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  6. Re: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    On Sat, 25 Oct 2008 13:00:10 GMT, Tony(UK) wrote:

    > This has just appeared on my RSS feed from Linux.com:
    > http://www.linux.com/feature/151215
    >
    > Entitled Boycott Novell: Champion of freedom or den of paranoia?


    Another article with the same or similar name was posted on a different
    website.
    It think this article makes referecnce to it.

    Bottom line, your opinions of BN are pretty much on the mark. Schestowitz
    and his gang of loonies are extreme radicals and like a light switch they
    are either on or off.
    There is very little middle ground with these people.

    The site is basically a thinly veiled hate site for anything commercial and
    while it has Linux as a basis it has pretty much migrated toward patents,
    the hate of the patent system and so forth.

    You don't have to take my word for it Tony, visit the site and read for
    yourself.
    Pay particular attention to the IRC logs that Roy posts there and see the
    extreme paranoia and hate from the people who post there.

    This is not doing Linux and the Linux community any good press.
    It just isn't.

    In fact, much like the negative campaigning going on in the US elections,
    it is turning people off.

    Personally, I feel the author was fair to Roy and his gang though.

    One final thought, if anyone still believes that Schestowitz is doing all
    this gratis, they should seriously sit down and think about it for a while.
    He is being compensated just like the so called munchkins he so often makes
    reference to and their is a hell of a lot more evidence to back up him
    being paid then the munchkins.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  7. Re: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    Verily I say unto thee, that Tony(UK) spake thusly:

    > The bit about the Linux community never being a 'happy family' is
    > because of what exactly?


    You should read the LKML some time to get a taste of some real flame
    wars. Historically, do some research on Vi vs Emacs issue, or KDE vs Gnome.

    These days the biggest divide seems to be between those who'd rather
    compromise their freedom, than lose certain short-term conveniences,
    and those who still remember the goals of Free Software.

    You seem outraged by this in-fighting, but quite oblivious to crimes
    committed by Microsoft, which is what actually started this fighting
    in the first place WRT the Novell and "Intellectual Property" issues
    at least.

    Please tell me you understand the severity of the problem a criminal
    organisation like Microsoft poses to the software industry, and Free
    Software in particular. Surely you can understand my outrage against
    their bribery; smear campaigns and FUD. They (and their partners in
    crime Intel) even sabotaged a *charity*, for Christ's sake - how can
    you possibly not be outraged against that but be more outraged about
    those who speak out against these gangsters and their supporters?

    I appreciate that you're just a guy trying to enjoy life and use the
    best tools for the job, and you probably don't give a damn about the
    politics.

    I do.

    Please don't deny me that privilege.

    Your disinterest in Microsoft's crimes won't stop those crimes, and
    maybe my cries of outrage won't either, but doing something has got
    to be better than doing nothing, right?

    What else am I supposed to do, STFU and be happy that my Freedom is
    being compromised by a bunch of gangsters and FOSS turncoats?

    I don't think so.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    23:49:12 up 16 days, 9:45, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00

  8. Re: Now all this is not helpful to Linux advocacy (long)

    On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:49:37 +0000, Homer wrote:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that Tony(UK) spake thusly:
    >
    >> The bit about the Linux community never being a 'happy family' is
    >> because of what exactly?

    >
    > You should read the LKML some time to get a taste of some real flame
    > wars. Historically, do some research on Vi vs Emacs issue, or KDE vs Gnome.
    >
    > These days the biggest divide seems to be between those who'd rather
    > compromise their freedom, than lose certain short-term conveniences,
    > and those who still remember the goals of Free Software.
    >
    > You seem outraged by this in-fighting, but quite oblivious to crimes
    > committed by Microsoft, which is what actually started this fighting
    > in the first place WRT the Novell and "Intellectual Property" issues
    > at least.
    >
    > Please tell me you understand the severity of the problem a criminal
    > organisation like Microsoft poses to the software industry, and Free
    > Software in particular. Surely you can understand my outrage against
    > their bribery; smear campaigns and FUD. They (and their partners in
    > crime Intel) even sabotaged a *charity*, for Christ's sake - how can
    > you possibly not be outraged against that but be more outraged about
    > those who speak out against these gangsters and their supporters?
    >
    > I appreciate that you're just a guy trying to enjoy life and use the
    > best tools for the job, and you probably don't give a damn about the
    > politics.
    >
    > I do.
    >
    > Please don't deny me that privilege.
    >
    > Your disinterest in Microsoft's crimes won't stop those crimes, and
    > maybe my cries of outrage won't either, but doing something has got
    > to be better than doing nothing, right?
    >
    > What else am I supposed to do, STFU and be happy that my Freedom is
    > being compromised by a bunch of gangsters and FOSS turncoats?
    >
    > I don't think so.


    You could start by not acting like a raving lunatic.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

+ Reply to Thread