[News] OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs - Linux

This is a discussion on [News] OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs - Linux ; On 2008-10-22, Tom Shelton wrote: > On 2008-10-22, Chris Ahlstrom wrote: >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Tom Shelton belched out >> this bit o' wisdom: >> >>> On 2008-10-21, Chris Ahlstrom wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> Certainly, many ...

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Thread: [News] OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

  1. Re: [News] OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    On 2008-10-22, Tom Shelton wrote:
    > On 2008-10-22, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Tom Shelton belched out
    >> this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> On 2008-10-21, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>> Certainly, many do pay for M$ Office (especially in business), but I
    >>>>>> know of no one who would pay for it for their own personal use...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I would and do.
    >>>>
    >>>> Why????!
    >>>>
    >>>> What do you do personally that requires MS Office?
    >>>
    >>> Not a lot really - but, I like it a lot better

    >>
    >> Uh, okay. I'd have thought you'd be a LaTeX guy.
    >>

    >
    > Funny you should say that.... I've actually been playing a bit with LaTex
    > lately. So, you never know...


    Don't you mean "TexLive"?

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  2. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    Snit wrote:
    > Comparing the newest MS Office with the newest OpenOffice - both on
    > Windows, and both just the word processors:
    >
    > MS Word has the advantages of:
    >
    > * The ribbon... while not all will like it, of course, for many it is seen
    > as an advantage. Unlike menus and toolbars it is a unified place to look
    > for almost all commands and it has larger icons.


    I don't have an opinion about the ribbon since I have not used it much but
    it is one of the reasons I have installed many Open Offices.

    > * More compatible with what others use... like it or not


    Since here OpenOffice is more used than MS Office 2007 and ODF is the
    preferred format, here OpenOffice is the "more compatible" one.

    > * More accessible templates and pre-made text styles


    There are OpenOffice templates available for virtually all types of
    documents, many provided by the public administration.

    > And, I am sure, more... those were with just a few minutes of looking.
    >
    > With all of that said, I *do* think the current version of OpenOffice is a
    > very good program - something I happily recommend to many customers. And,
    > I am sure, it has its advantages...
    >
    > Other than price, though, what do you think those are?


    I have not used MS Office 2007 much but the one time I seriously used it
    (for the learning experience mostly), it was to compose the specification
    of a factory line. Lots of text (~500 pages), images (~250 images some
    large), graphics (~200 vector graphics) and tables (~40 mostly small a few
    a bit larger and one with 600 lines). I usually use Lyx for documents of
    this size but the clients wanted it in a more "friendly" format.

    It became clear that MS Office 2007 had scalability and stability problems.
    Page scrolling was slow, with annoying several seconds pauses. Copy & past
    large sections of text caused slow downs and some times crashes.

    When the document was half done the loading times where in the 10 minutes
    area and to make things worse it frequently crashed. I finished the
    document in OpenOffice and it's performance and stability was significantly
    better. This is the only significant MS Office 2007 experience.

    So giving your question a short to the point answer. OpenOffice advantages
    over MS Office 2007 are Stability, scalability, promoted by the public
    administration, more common than MS Office 2007.

    Regards.

  3. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    After takin' a swig o' grog, LusoTec belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > I have not used MS Office 2007 much but the one time I seriously used it
    > (for the learning experience mostly), it was to compose the specification
    > of a factory line. Lots of text (~500 pages), images (~250 images some
    > large), graphics (~200 vector graphics) and tables (~40 mostly small a few
    > a bit larger and one with 600 lines). I usually use Lyx for documents of
    > this size but the clients wanted it in a more "friendly" format.
    >
    > It became clear that MS Office 2007 had scalability and stability problems.
    > Page scrolling was slow, with annoying several seconds pauses. Copy & past
    > large sections of text caused slow downs and some times crashes.
    >
    > When the document was half done the loading times where in the 10 minutes
    > area and to make things worse it frequently crashed. I finished the
    > document in OpenOffice and it's performance and stability was significantly
    > better. This is the only significant MS Office 2007 experience.
    >
    > So giving your question a short to the point answer. OpenOffice advantages
    > over MS Office 2007 are Stability, scalability, promoted by the public
    > administration, more common than MS Office 2007.


    I think you're better off creating and editing such documents in
    OpenOffice and ODF format, then exporting them to DOC format when ready
    to "publish". I suspect that no one would be the wiser. You might have
    to be judicious about the font(s) chosen.

    As you note, it's when you start using Microsoft "The Corruptor" Word
    that the problems begin. Of course, it helps if you have a lot of RAM,
    but that doesn't help the formatting issues, Word's internal
    adaptation to your printer drivers, and users incorporating some
    Microsoft-only font into the document.

    --
    Love at first sight is one of the greatest labor-saving devices the
    world has ever seen.

  4. Re: [News] OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    Verily I say unto thee, that Erik Jan spake thusly:
    > Moshe Goldfarb. had de volgende lumineuze gedachte op 21-10-08 18:20:


    >> Possibly OpenOffice 3.0 will remedy this, but isn't that what we
    >> heard with V2.0 ?

    >
    > You keep repeating this, but you do not have the means to know it.
    > You know nothing about it, nothing at all.


    The Microsoft "evangelist's" rule #3: Never let good news about the
    competition go unchallenged by FUD.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
    | the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
    | weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
    12:45:00 up 12 days, 21:40, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00

  5. Re: [News] OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:38:43 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:

    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    > Hash: SHA1
    >
    > ____/ 7 on Tuesday 21 October 2008 19:09 : \____
    >
    >> Micoshaft asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Moshe Goldfarb
    >> wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Department of Marketing:
    >>
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:14:13 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >>>> Hash: SHA1
    >>>>
    >>>> OpenOffice.org 3.0 scores strong first week
    >>>>
    >>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>| The successful introduction of the open source office suite came despite
    >>>>| the group's download servers being temporarily overwhelmed by demand for
    >>>>| the new software last week.
    >>>>|
    >>>>| [...]
    >>>>|
    >>>>| With the undercount included, OpenOffice.org 3.0 may already be
    >>>>| installed on up to 5 million computers worldwide, McCreesh said in a
    >>>>| blog post.
    >>>
    >>> Sure.....
    >>> But not for long...
    >>>
    >>> Once people try OpenOffice, they dump it rather quickly.
    >>> Why?
    >>> They would rather pay for MSOffice because it's superior.
    >>>
    >>> Possibly OpenOffice 3.0 will remedy this, but isn't that what we heard
    >>> with V2.0 ?

    >>
    >>
    >> Your post is out of date asstroturfing on behalf of micoshaft corporation.
    >>
    >> Open Office is gaining ground by a million a day at the moment
    >> and you should not be trivilising the success enjoyed by millions
    >> because micoshaft is paying you be asstroturfing.
    >>
    >> Asstroturfing by big corporations is illegal in the EU as of 26 May 2008.
    >> Your asstroturfing post is more reasons why the US should be following suit
    >> and banning corporations from hiring secretive commie asstroturfers like
    >> you to distort the workings of the free market.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> | With the undercount included, OpenOffice.org 3.0 may already be installed
    >> on
    >> | up to 5 million computers worldwide, McCreesh said in a blog post.
    >> `----
    >>
    >> http://www.computerworld.com/action
    >> article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9117575
    >>
    >> http://www.openoffice.org

    >
    > Facts speak louder than Munchkins.
    >
    > OpenOffice.org Breaks Records Everywhere
    >
    > ,----[ Quote ]
    > | All around the world, it seems, people just can't get enough of this amazing
    > | free office suite, which is now turning in serious market shares in some
    > | countries. For, example, according to this report, there are now 12 million
    > | users in Brazil, representing fully 25% of the entire office market there.
    > `----
    >
    > http://www.computerworlduk.com/commu...1369&blogid=14


    It's estimated that there are more than 20million users of OpenOffice.

    Some of the major OOo users:
    http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/...rg_Deployments

    Also the state of Israel dumped M$ Office years ago, & changed to OOo:
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/55243

    http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news...le.php/3294431


    So, good enough for governments, & some large companies....but not good
    enough for the M$ fanboi Quack troll!

    --
    Most people are sheep. *
    Microsoft is very effective
    at fleecing the flockers.



  6. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    "LusoTec" stated in post
    dP-dnU5lEfPm053UnZ2dnUVZ8oWdnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/23/08 3:14 AM:

    > Snit wrote:
    >> Comparing the newest MS Office with the newest OpenOffice - both on
    >> Windows, and both just the word processors:
    >>
    >> MS Word has the advantages of:
    >>
    >> * The ribbon... while not all will like it, of course, for many it is seen
    >> as an advantage. Unlike menus and toolbars it is a unified place to look
    >> for almost all commands and it has larger icons.

    >
    > I don't have an opinion about the ribbon since I have not used it much but
    > it is one of the reasons I have installed many Open Offices.


    It is a big change, and while it offers some benefits it is not better in
    all ways (some tasks take more clicks, the organization is not perfect,
    etc.).

    >> * More compatible with what others use... like it or not

    >
    > Since here OpenOffice is more used than MS Office 2007 and ODF is the
    > preferred format, here OpenOffice is the "more compatible" one.


    There might be small pockets where that is the case... that would be rare,
    though. Where is "here" if I may ask?

    >> * More accessible templates and pre-made text styles

    >
    > There are OpenOffice templates available for virtually all types of
    > documents, many provided by the public administration.


    Not as easily accessible... and likely not the range of document types,
    though I have not checked recently.

    >> And, I am sure, more... those were with just a few minutes of looking.
    >>
    >> With all of that said, I *do* think the current version of OpenOffice is a
    >> very good program - something I happily recommend to many customers. And,
    >> I am sure, it has its advantages...
    >>
    >> Other than price, though, what do you think those are?

    >
    > I have not used MS Office 2007 much but the one time I seriously used it
    > (for the learning experience mostly), it was to compose the specification
    > of a factory line. Lots of text (~500 pages), images (~250 images some
    > large), graphics (~200 vector graphics) and tables (~40 mostly small a few
    > a bit larger and one with 600 lines). I usually use Lyx for documents of
    > this size but the clients wanted it in a more "friendly" format.
    >
    > It became clear that MS Office 2007 had scalability and stability problems.
    > Page scrolling was slow, with annoying several seconds pauses. Copy & past
    > large sections of text caused slow downs and some times crashes.


    I have not used it with large documents... so I cannot comment on this.

    > When the document was half done the loading times where in the 10 minutes
    > area and to make things worse it frequently crashed. I finished the
    > document in OpenOffice and it's performance and stability was significantly
    > better. This is the only significant MS Office 2007 experience.


    I can see where that would put Word in a bad light for you.

    > So giving your question a short to the point answer. OpenOffice advantages
    > over MS Office 2007 are Stability, scalability, promoted by the public
    > administration, more common than MS Office 2007.


    I will say I am very impressed with how much faster the new OO is than the
    last one, in terms of launching and working with tables especially. I have
    not had Word not OO crash (that I can think of) so both are quite stable in
    my experience, but I have not worked with anything more than 10-15 pages
    that I can think of off hand.

    Thanks for the comments.


    --
    I think the Apple guys have a very good point when they say we should let
    designers lead the definition of the user experience.
    - Mark Shuttleworth (founded Canonical Ltd. / Ubuntu Linux)


  7. Re: [News] OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    ____/ William Poaster on Thursday 23 October 2008 12:09 : \____

    > On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:38:43 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >
    >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >> Hash: SHA1
    >>
    >> ____/ 7 on Tuesday 21 October 2008 19:09 : \____
    >>
    >>> Micoshaft asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Moshe Goldfarb
    >>> wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Department of Marketing:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:14:13 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >>>>> Hash: SHA1
    >>>>>
    >>>>> OpenOffice.org 3.0 scores strong first week
    >>>>>
    >>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>>| The successful introduction of the open source office suite came despite
    >>>>>| the group's download servers being temporarily overwhelmed by demand for
    >>>>>| the new software last week.
    >>>>>|
    >>>>>| [...]
    >>>>>|
    >>>>>| With the undercount included, OpenOffice.org 3.0 may already be
    >>>>>| installed on up to 5 million computers worldwide, McCreesh said in a
    >>>>>| blog post.
    >>>>
    >>>> Sure.....
    >>>> But not for long...
    >>>>
    >>>> Once people try OpenOffice, they dump it rather quickly.
    >>>> Why?
    >>>> They would rather pay for MSOffice because it's superior.
    >>>>
    >>>> Possibly OpenOffice 3.0 will remedy this, but isn't that what we heard
    >>>> with V2.0 ?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Your post is out of date asstroturfing on behalf of micoshaft corporation.
    >>>
    >>> Open Office is gaining ground by a million a day at the moment
    >>> and you should not be trivilising the success enjoyed by millions
    >>> because micoshaft is paying you be asstroturfing.
    >>>
    >>> Asstroturfing by big corporations is illegal in the EU as of 26 May 2008.
    >>> Your asstroturfing post is more reasons why the US should be following suit
    >>> and banning corporations from hiring secretive commie asstroturfers like
    >>> you to distort the workings of the free market.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> | With the undercount included, OpenOffice.org 3.0 may already be installed
    >>> on
    >>> | up to 5 million computers worldwide, McCreesh said in a blog post.
    >>> `----
    >>>
    >>> http://www.computerworld.com/action
    >>> article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9117575
    >>>
    >>> http://www.openoffice.org

    >>
    >> Facts speak louder than Munchkins.
    >>
    >> OpenOffice.org Breaks Records Everywhere
    >>
    >> ,----[ Quote ]
    >> | All around the world, it seems, people just can't get enough of this
    >> | amazing free office suite, which is now turning in serious market shares
    >> | in some countries. For, example, according to this report, there are now
    >> | 12 million users in Brazil, representing fully 25% of the entire office
    >> | market there.
    >> `----
    >>
    >>

    http://www.computerworlduk.com/commu...1369&blogid=14
    >
    > It's estimated that there are more than 20million users of OpenOffice.
    >
    > Some of the major OOo users:
    > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/...rg_Deployments
    >
    > Also the state of Israel dumped M$ Office years ago, & changed to OOo:
    > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/55243
    >
    > http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news...le.php/3294431
    >
    >
    > So, good enough for governments, & some large companies....but not good
    > enough for the M$ fanboi Quack troll!


    There must be a lot more. For example, 50 million kids in Brazil will grow up
    on OOo (and Debian).

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | "All your archives are (sic) belong to Google"
    http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    23:00:01 up 8 days, 7:18, 1 user, load average: 0.41, 0.63, 0.72
    http://iuron.com - help build a non-profit search engine
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  8. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    Snit wrote:

    > "LusoTec" stated in post
    > dP-dnU5lEfPm053UnZ2dnUVZ8oWdnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/23/08 3:14 AM:
    >
    >> Snit wrote:
    >>> Comparing the newest MS Office with the newest OpenOffice - both on
    >>> Windows, and both just the word processors:
    >>>
    >>> MS Word has the advantages of:
    >>>
    >>> * The ribbon... while not all will like it, of course, for many it is
    >>> seen
    >>> as an advantage. Unlike menus and toolbars it is a unified place to
    >>> look for almost all commands and it has larger icons.

    >>
    >> I don't have an opinion about the ribbon since I have not used it much
    >> but it is one of the reasons I have installed many Open Offices.

    >
    > It is a big change, and while it offers some benefits it is not better in
    > all ways (some tasks take more clicks, the organization is not perfect,
    > etc.).


    Change always causes some stress, even if it is for the better. The same is
    true for changes from MS Office to OpenOffice but in the case of MS Office
    2007 the /smaller less stressful change advantage/ goes to OpenOffice, at
    least, in the opinion of many other people I talked about this. i have done
    lots of OpenOffice installs.

    >>> * More compatible with what others use... like it or not

    >>
    >> Since here OpenOffice is more used than MS Office 2007 and ODF is the
    >> preferred format, here OpenOffice is the "more compatible" one.

    >
    > There might be small pockets where that is the case... that would be rare,
    > though. Where is "here" if I may ask?


    "Here" refers to most all the people I trade documents with: friends,
    clients, suppliers, lawyer, accountant, and the public administration. Most
    of these are in Portugal. With new suppliers and clients, I some times have
    to send them a link to OpenOffice so they can open ODF documents but most
    times they already use it.

    I don't know if "small pockets" is the main reason but it certainly helps to
    be able to send ODF documents in e-mail attachments and in post script
    say "Can't open the document? Download OpenOffice for free from the link
    bellow and install and use it to open the ODF document". I have got many
    people to discover OpenOffice just like this. It also opened doors to some
    business, convert existing MS Office/Windows installations to
    OpenOffice/Windows and even to OpenOffice/Linux. many many people simply
    don't know that there are other options.

    >>> * More accessible templates and pre-made text styles

    >>
    >> There are OpenOffice templates available for virtually all types of
    >> documents, many provided by the public administration.

    >
    > Not as easily accessible... and likely not the range of document types,
    > though I have not checked recently.


    I have found ODF templates for every document I have ever needed, many
    provided by the public administration, so it has not been a problem for me.

    >>> And, I am sure, more... those were with just a few minutes of looking.
    >>>
    >>> With all of that said, I *do* think the current version of OpenOffice is
    >>> a very good program - something I happily recommend to many customers.
    >>> And, I am sure, it has its advantages...
    >>>
    >>> Other than price, though, what do you think those are?

    >>
    >> I have not used MS Office 2007 much but the one time I seriously used it
    >> (for the learning experience mostly), it was to compose the specification
    >> of a factory line. Lots of text (~500 pages), images (~250 images some
    >> large), graphics (~200 vector graphics) and tables (~40 mostly small a
    >> few a bit larger and one with 600 lines). I usually use Lyx for documents
    >> of this size but the clients wanted it in a more "friendly" format.
    >>
    >> It became clear that MS Office 2007 had scalability and stability
    >> problems. Page scrolling was slow, with annoying several seconds pauses.
    >> Copy & past large sections of text caused slow downs and some times
    >> crashes.

    >
    > I have not used it with large documents... so I cannot comment on this.


    I don't normally use MS Office or OpenOffice for large documents. I use Lyx.
    It scales extremely well and never crashed or had me loose work or waste
    time. Then again, it is a different class of software, so comparing it to
    the Offices is like comparing apples to potatoes.

    >> When the document was half done the loading times where in the 10 minutes
    >> area and to make things worse it frequently crashed. I finished the
    >> document in OpenOffice and it's performance and stability was
    >> significantly better. This is the only significant MS Office 2007
    >> experience.

    >
    > I can see where that would put Word in a bad light for you.


    I have a one point graph so it is wrong to extrapolate but first experiences
    have weight in perception.

    >> So giving your question a short to the point answer. OpenOffice
    >> advantages over MS Office 2007 are Stability, scalability, promoted by
    >> the public administration, more common than MS Office 2007.

    >
    > I will say I am very impressed with how much faster the new OO is than the
    > last one, in terms of launching and working with tables especially. I
    > have not had Word not OO crash (that I can think of) so both are quite
    > stable in my experience, but I have not worked with anything more than
    > 10-15 pages that I can think of off hand.


    OpenOffice compares very well with MS Office and that is one of the reasons
    why it is so easy to convince people (e.g. company It managers) to change
    to it. From my experience, most MS Office users will change to OpenOffice
    with a minor adaptation period.

    Regards.

  9. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    > I think you're better off creating and editing such documents in
    > OpenOffice and ODF format, then exporting them to DOC format when ready
    > to "publish". I suspect that no one would be the wiser. You might have
    > to be judicious about the font(s) chosen.
    >
    > As you note, it's when you start using Microsoft "The Corruptor" Word
    > that the problems begin. Of course, it helps if you have a lot of RAM,
    > but that doesn't help the formatting issues, Word's internal
    > adaptation to your printer drivers, and users incorporating some
    > Microsoft-only font into the document.


    I normally don't use MS Office (any version) and in this case I used MS
    Office 2007 to take and look at the changes from previous versions and get
    some experience with it.

    ODF is the format I almost always use. I also have enough influence to send
    ODF documents to people and have them use that format. Legacy formats (e.g.
    doc) should no longer be used for new documents and much less exchanged.

    Regards.

  10. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    "LusoTec" stated in post
    iPKdnY7TrcNoNpzUnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/24/08 4:05 AM:

    > Snit wrote:
    >
    >> "LusoTec" stated in post
    >> dP-dnU5lEfPm053UnZ2dnUVZ8oWdnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/23/08 3:14 AM:
    >>
    >>> Snit wrote:
    >>>> Comparing the newest MS Office with the newest OpenOffice - both on
    >>>> Windows, and both just the word processors:
    >>>>
    >>>> MS Word has the advantages of:
    >>>>
    >>>> * The ribbon... while not all will like it, of course, for many it is
    >>>> seen
    >>>> as an advantage. Unlike menus and toolbars it is a unified place to
    >>>> look for almost all commands and it has larger icons.
    >>>
    >>> I don't have an opinion about the ribbon since I have not used it much
    >>> but it is one of the reasons I have installed many Open Offices.

    >>
    >> It is a big change, and while it offers some benefits it is not better in
    >> all ways (some tasks take more clicks, the organization is not perfect,
    >> etc.).

    >
    > Change always causes some stress, even if it is for the better. The same is
    > true for changes from MS Office to OpenOffice but in the case of MS Office
    > 2007 the /smaller less stressful change advantage/ goes to OpenOffice, at
    > least, in the opinion of many other people I talked about this. i have done
    > lots of OpenOffice installs.


    MS Office 2007 is, no doubt, a big change. It does, however, work with MS
    Office 2003 files better than does OpenOffice.

    >>>> * More compatible with what others use... like it or not
    >>>
    >>> Since here OpenOffice is more used than MS Office 2007 and ODF is the
    >>> preferred format, here OpenOffice is the "more compatible" one.

    >>
    >> There might be small pockets where that is the case... that would be rare,
    >> though. Where is "here" if I may ask?

    >
    > "Here" refers to most all the people I trade documents with: friends,
    > clients, suppliers, lawyer, accountant, and the public administration. Most
    > of these are in Portugal. With new suppliers and clients, I some times have
    > to send them a link to OpenOffice so they can open ODF documents but most
    > times they already use it.


    OK, Portugal is where you meant. I am in the US and do not know the
    situation in Portugal. I certainly do not dispute your claims...

    > I don't know if "small pockets" is the main reason but it certainly helps to
    > be able to send ODF documents in e-mail attachments and in post script
    > say "Can't open the document? Download OpenOffice for free from the link
    > bellow and install and use it to open the ODF document". I have got many
    > people to discover OpenOffice just like this. It also opened doors to some
    > business, convert existing MS Office/Windows installations to
    > OpenOffice/Windows and even to OpenOffice/Linux. many many people simply
    > don't know that there are other options.


    True... but it seems a bit much to expect people to download a full Office
    Suite just to read your files. Then again, many people do that with MS
    Office and it is not even free!

    >>>> * More accessible templates and pre-made text styles
    >>>
    >>> There are OpenOffice templates available for virtually all types of
    >>> documents, many provided by the public administration.

    >>
    >> Not as easily accessible... and likely not the range of document types,
    >> though I have not checked recently.

    >
    > I have found ODF templates for every document I have ever needed, many
    > provided by the public administration, so it has not been a problem for me.


    I just went to File > New and looked for templates. While the interface for
    finding them online (on the site I was pointed to) could certainly be made
    better, I did find the templates I was looking for (arbitrarily picked
    invoice, calendar, and a few others).

    >>>> And, I am sure, more... those were with just a few minutes of looking.
    >>>>
    >>>> With all of that said, I *do* think the current version of OpenOffice is
    >>>> a very good program - something I happily recommend to many customers.
    >>>> And, I am sure, it has its advantages...
    >>>>
    >>>> Other than price, though, what do you think those are?
    >>>
    >>> I have not used MS Office 2007 much but the one time I seriously used it
    >>> (for the learning experience mostly), it was to compose the specification
    >>> of a factory line. Lots of text (~500 pages), images (~250 images some
    >>> large), graphics (~200 vector graphics) and tables (~40 mostly small a
    >>> few a bit larger and one with 600 lines). I usually use Lyx for documents
    >>> of this size but the clients wanted it in a more "friendly" format.
    >>>
    >>> It became clear that MS Office 2007 had scalability and stability
    >>> problems. Page scrolling was slow, with annoying several seconds pauses.
    >>> Copy & past large sections of text caused slow downs and some times
    >>> crashes.

    >>
    >> I have not used it with large documents... so I cannot comment on this.

    >
    > I don't normally use MS Office or OpenOffice for large documents. I use Lyx.
    > It scales extremely well and never crashed or had me loose work or waste
    > time. Then again, it is a different class of software, so comparing it to
    > the Offices is like comparing apples to potatoes.


    Agreed.

    >>> When the document was half done the loading times where in the 10 minutes
    >>> area and to make things worse it frequently crashed. I finished the
    >>> document in OpenOffice and it's performance and stability was
    >>> significantly better. This is the only significant MS Office 2007
    >>> experience.

    >>
    >> I can see where that would put Word in a bad light for you.

    >
    > I have a one point graph so it is wrong to extrapolate but first experiences
    > have weight in perception.


    No doubt... one of the reasons it is so important that desktop Linux be able
    to offer a more consistent user experience.

    >>> So giving your question a short to the point answer. OpenOffice
    >>> advantages over MS Office 2007 are Stability, scalability, promoted by
    >>> the public administration, more common than MS Office 2007.

    >>
    >> I will say I am very impressed with how much faster the new OO is than the
    >> last one, in terms of launching and working with tables especially. I
    >> have not had Word not OO crash (that I can think of) so both are quite
    >> stable in my experience, but I have not worked with anything more than
    >> 10-15 pages that I can think of off hand.

    >
    > OpenOffice compares very well with MS Office and that is one of the reasons
    > why it is so easy to convince people (e.g. company It managers) to change
    > to it. From my experience, most MS Office users will change to OpenOffice
    > with a minor adaptation period.


    I did list some things where OpenOffice fails: grammar checking and working
    with legacy files being two biggies. But, again, while I was not a fan of
    OpenOffice a few versions ago, it has matured into a very good product that
    is improving quickly. I am all for it... and have several clients who I
    have installed it for them. Most are very happy with it.



    --
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
    that take our breath away.




  11. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    "Snit" stated in post
    C526FE60.DC263%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com on 10/24/08 4:24 AM:

    >> I have found ODF templates for every document I have ever needed, many
    >> provided by the public administration, so it has not been a problem for me.

    >
    > I just went to File > New and looked for templates. While the interface for
    > finding them online (on the site I was pointed to) could certainly be made
    > better, I did find the templates I was looking for (arbitrarily picked
    > invoice, calendar, and a few others).


    Arg! While installing the templates, OpenOffice crashed on me...


    --
    I know how a jam jar feels...
    .... full of jam!


  12. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    After takin' a swig o' grog, LusoTec belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > OpenOffice compares very well with MS Office and that is one of the reasons
    > why it is so easy to convince people (e.g. company It managers) to change
    > to it. From my experience, most MS Office users will change to OpenOffice
    > with a minor adaptation period.


    And OO keeps getting better at MSO support. I opened and printed one of
    our 300-page design documents yesterday, using OO, and the /only/ oddity
    I noticed was a font problem in one place -- OO thought the font was
    "Times New Roman Bold;Times" for some reason -- problem Word corrupting
    its own format.

    Now if OO could convert Visio to Draw format.... It can handle OLE
    documents, but when ungrouped, the connection points are lost.

    But, overall, I was surprised at how well it works. Definitely better
    than just a few months ago, for our documents.

    --
    First there was Dial-A-Prayer, then Dial-A-Recipe, and even Dial-A-Footballer.
    But the south-east Victorian town of Sale has produced one to top them all.
    Dial-A-Wombat.
    -- "Newcastle Morning Herald", NSW Australia, Aug 1980.

  13. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    After takin' a swig o' grog, LusoTec belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > I normally don't use MS Office (any version) and in this case I used MS
    > Office 2007 to take and look at the changes from previous versions and get
    > some experience with it.
    >
    > ODF is the format I almost always use. I also have enough influence to send
    > ODF documents to people and have them use that format. Legacy formats (e.g.
    > doc) should no longer be used for new documents and much less exchanged.


    That doesn't fly much in the U.S., where it seems everyone has a
    pilfered copy of Microsoft Office.

    --
    QOTD:
    I'm not a nerd -- I'm "socially challenged".

  14. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    Snit wrote:
    > "LusoTec" stated in post
    > iPKdnY7TrcNoNpzUnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/24/08 4:05 AM:
    >> Change always causes some stress, even if it is for the better. The same
    >> is true for changes from MS Office to OpenOffice but in the case of MS
    >> Office 2007 the /smaller less stressful change advantage/ goes to
    >> OpenOffice, at least, in the opinion of many other people I talked about
    >> this. i have done lots of OpenOffice installs.

    >
    > MS Office 2007 is, no doubt, a big change. It does, however, work with MS
    > Office 2003 files better than does OpenOffice.


    True but I'm moving away from legacy formats so support for those is already
    a minor issue and will soon be a non issue. Minor formatting issues are
    irrelevant when what you need is to look at the archived information.

    >> "Here" refers to most all the people I trade documents with: friends,
    >> clients, suppliers, lawyer, accountant, and the public administration.
    >> Most of these are in Portugal. With new suppliers and clients, I some
    >> times have to send them a link to OpenOffice so they can open ODF
    >> documents but most times they already use it.

    >
    > OK, Portugal is where you meant. I am in the US and do not know the
    > situation in Portugal. I certainly do not dispute your claims...


    I don't have first hand experience with US IT ecosystem but some things are
    certainly different.

    In Portugal, FOSS is being promoted by *part* of the government and public
    administration. There was a CD being distributed in schools and public
    services with OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP, and several other FOSSs. All
    public web services are tested in Firefox. The new laptop for young school
    children has a GNU/Linux option along with Windows XP.

    One other aspect that is different from the US is that Macs are a very rare
    bread here. Linux has a significantly higher market and user share than
    Macs.

    >> I don't know if "small pockets" is the main reason but it certainly helps
    >> to be able to send ODF documents in e-mail attachments and in post script
    >> say "Can't open the document? Download OpenOffice for free from the link
    >> bellow and install and use it to open the ODF document". I have got many
    >> people to discover OpenOffice just like this. It also opened doors to
    >> some business, convert existing MS Office/Windows installations to
    >> OpenOffice/Windows and even to OpenOffice/Linux. many many people simply
    >> don't know that there are other options.

    >
    > True... but it seems a bit much to expect people to download a full Office
    > Suite just to read your files. Then again, many people do that with MS
    > Office and it is not even free!


    It may be a "bit much" but ... it works. People download it and some start
    using it as their main office suite.

    >> I have a one point graph so it is wrong to extrapolate but first
    >> experiences have weight in perception.

    >
    > No doubt... one of the reasons it is so important that desktop Linux be
    > able to offer a more consistent user experience.


    Agreed. A "consistent user experience" is important for an inexperienced
    user. It softens the learning curve. Powerful customization possibilities
    are only attractive for experienced users.

    Regards.

  15. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    "LusoTec" stated in post
    7rmdnRGfot9KXpzUnZ2dnUVZ8uSdnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/24/08 5:47 AM:

    > Snit wrote:
    >> "LusoTec" stated in post
    >> iPKdnY7TrcNoNpzUnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/24/08 4:05 AM:
    >>> Change always causes some stress, even if it is for the better. The same
    >>> is true for changes from MS Office to OpenOffice but in the case of MS
    >>> Office 2007 the /smaller less stressful change advantage/ goes to
    >>> OpenOffice, at least, in the opinion of many other people I talked about
    >>> this. i have done lots of OpenOffice installs.

    >>
    >> MS Office 2007 is, no doubt, a big change. It does, however, work with MS
    >> Office 2003 files better than does OpenOffice.

    >
    > True but I'm moving away from legacy formats so support for those is already
    > a minor issue and will soon be a non issue. Minor formatting issues are
    > irrelevant when what you need is to look at the archived information.


    For me it has not just been a matter of viewing archived data. I moved away
    from MS Office as my main word processor, though I still need to use it for
    some purposes. In doing so I wanted to move my syllabi to another format -
    turns out both OpenOffice and Apple's pages absolutely mangled the
    formatting - so I had to re-do my syllabus template pretty much from
    scratch. Not a huge deal, but being that before that I was able to get
    class ABC's old syllabus and just do a bit of updating it did add a fair
    amount of prep work for that semester. Now it is a non-issue to me, unless
    I teach a class I have not taught for a while.

    >>> "Here" refers to most all the people I trade documents with: friends,
    >>> clients, suppliers, lawyer, accountant, and the public administration.
    >>> Most of these are in Portugal. With new suppliers and clients, I some
    >>> times have to send them a link to OpenOffice so they can open ODF
    >>> documents but most times they already use it.

    >>
    >> OK, Portugal is where you meant. I am in the US and do not know the
    >> situation in Portugal. I certainly do not dispute your claims...

    >
    > I don't have first hand experience with US IT ecosystem but some things are
    > certainly different.
    >
    > In Portugal, FOSS is being promoted by *part* of the government and public
    > administration. There was a CD being distributed in schools and public
    > services with OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP, and several other FOSSs. All
    > public web services are tested in Firefox. The new laptop for young school
    > children has a GNU/Linux option along with Windows XP.


    In one of the schools I set up I have a Linux lab (Ubuntu, specifically)
    with all of the software you mention, excluding GIMP. I would love it if
    there would be a greater insistence in this country that things work on
    Firefox - though some things that used to work on FF2 no longer work on FF3
    (which is not to say it is not a wonderful browser!)
    >
    > One other aspect that is different from the US is that Macs are a very rare
    > bread here. Linux has a significantly higher market and user share than
    > Macs.


    That is very different than here... we have about 20% Macs in the home and,
    maybe, 1% Linux. In the business world, though, Macs are not nearly as
    common.

    >>> I don't know if "small pockets" is the main reason but it certainly helps
    >>> to be able to send ODF documents in e-mail attachments and in post script
    >>> say "Can't open the document? Download OpenOffice for free from the link
    >>> bellow and install and use it to open the ODF document". I have got many
    >>> people to discover OpenOffice just like this. It also opened doors to
    >>> some business, convert existing MS Office/Windows installations to
    >>> OpenOffice/Windows and even to OpenOffice/Linux. many many people simply
    >>> don't know that there are other options.

    >>
    >> True... but it seems a bit much to expect people to download a full Office
    >> Suite just to read your files. Then again, many people do that with MS
    >> Office and it is not even free!

    >
    > It may be a "bit much" but ... it works. People download it and some start
    > using it as their main office suite.


    That works when you are in a position of some authority... but what if you
    needed to send files to a client or a boss or a teacher and they wanted MS
    Word files? I am in that situation... have had to go back to MS Word more
    than I wanted to.

    >>> I have a one point graph so it is wrong to extrapolate but first
    >>> experiences have weight in perception.

    >>
    >> No doubt... one of the reasons it is so important that desktop Linux be
    >> able to offer a more consistent user experience.

    >
    > Agreed. A "consistent user experience" is important for an inexperienced
    > user. It softens the learning curve. Powerful customization possibilities
    > are only attractive for experienced users.


    A consistent user experience is important for far more than just new users.
    It is, I think, one of the things that is holding Linux back in so many
    parts of the world. There are some pockets where Linux has taken hold,
    sometimes based on government action, but for the most part it is a bit of a
    mess right now in terms of usability. I suspect, however, that this will
    decrease as an issue greatly over the next few years.


    --
    You really have to give credit to Apple for driving innovation.
    - Mark Shuttleworth (founded Canonical Ltd. / Ubuntu Linux)


  16. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    Snit wrote:
    > "LusoTec" stated in post
    > 7rmdnRGfot9KXpzUnZ2dnUVZ8uSdnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/24/08 5:47 AM:
    >> I don't have first hand experience with US IT ecosystem but some things
    >> are certainly different.
    >>
    >> In Portugal, FOSS is being promoted by *part* of the government and
    >> public administration. There was a CD being distributed in schools and
    >> public services with OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP, and several other FOSSs.
    >> All public web services are tested in Firefox. The new laptop for young
    >> school children has a GNU/Linux option along with Windows XP.

    >
    > In one of the schools I set up I have a Linux lab (Ubuntu, specifically)
    > with all of the software you mention, excluding GIMP. I would love it if
    > there would be a greater insistence in this country that things work on
    > Firefox - though some things that used to work on FF2 no longer work on
    > FF3 (which is not to say it is not a wonderful browser!)


    I also had to do some minor changes to some templates, mostly minor changes.
    IE8 and Chrome support required more work. Now if only IE6 died for good
    instead of being a walking rotting nasty zombie I would be a lot
    happier.

    >> One other aspect that is different from the US is that Macs are a very
    >> rare bread here. Linux has a significantly higher market and user share
    >> than Macs.

    >
    > That is very different than here... we have about 20% Macs in the home
    > and, maybe, 1% Linux. In the business world, though, Macs are not nearly
    > as common.


    I did not know Macs had such a high user share in the homes. I wounder why
    did it not take has well in Europe.

    >> It may be a "bit much" but ... it works. People download it and some
    >> start using it as their main office suite.

    >
    > That works when you are in a position of some authority... but what if you
    > needed to send files to a client or a boss or a teacher and they wanted MS
    > Word files? I am in that situation... have had to go back to MS Word more
    > than I wanted to.


    I'm not in a position of authority (not exactly) but most times people need
    to see the documents I send them more than I need them to see the documents
    (I think that is what I mean).

    When someone says (s)he can't open the document I send them information on
    OpenOffice and ODF. When someone asks me to send the document in another
    format I don't make any resistance and send it to them (if I possible can)
    but still put a word for OpenOffice and ODF. I have no intention to force
    or even pressure people to use a format or program. I don't even insist, I
    inform the person once and that is it.

    >> Agreed. A "consistent user experience" is important for an inexperienced
    >> user. It softens the learning curve. Powerful customization possibilities
    >> are only attractive for experienced users.

    >
    > A consistent user experience is important for far more than just new
    > users. It is, I think, one of the things that is holding Linux back in so
    > many parts of the world. There are some pockets where Linux has taken
    > hold, sometimes based on government action, but for the most part it is a
    > bit of a mess right now in terms of usability. I suspect, however, that
    > this will decrease as an issue greatly over the next few years.


    I don't know, you may be right.

    What I know is that the more customization options are available the
    less "consistent user experience" there will be and GNU/Linux certainly has
    many many many options.

    I have several friends and colleagues that have used GNU/Linux for many
    years and are very experienced with it. If you look at their personal
    desktop environment you will not see two that look similar.

    Some have lots of widgets, icons and whatever on the screen (think air plain
    ****pit), some have 4 toolbars one for each side of the screen and the
    windows open in the middle, some have one toolbar (top or bottom), one has
    nothing on the desktop and has to click to open menus and such, one does
    not even use X windows on a regular base and sticks to several virtual
    consoles and ssh connections with liberal use of screens.

    On top of that, some use KDE, some Gnome, some E8, etc, with different
    widget sets, window decorations, most use 3D composition with a bunch of
    effects, some don't, different key shortcuts, different locales, etc.

    Even a experienced GNU/Linux user will take a pause to check his(er)
    bearings when at first looking at one of those systems.

    This much customization certainly hurts "consistent user experience" but I'm
    certain that none of them will trade customization for consistency.

    Regards.

  17. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    LusoTec wrote:

    < snip >

    >> That is very different than here... we have about 20% Macs in the home
    >> and, maybe, 1% Linux. In the business world, though, Macs are not nearly
    >> as common.

    >
    > I did not know Macs had such a high user share in the homes. I wounder why
    > did it not take has well in Europe.
    >


    It is no surprise at all.
    A laptop from apple costs about 2 to 2 1/2 times as much as a similar
    equipped non-apple-laptop
    The apple desktop-systems are simply overpriced junk

    In general: European customers simple are not stupid enough as apple needs
    them to be
    They know very well that the prices in the states are not nearly as idiotic
    as they are in europe

    Add to that the bad reputation apple earned (rightfully) for treating their
    customers as ****ty as they did in several cases, and their microscopic
    marketshare in europe is no surprise at all
    Linux has a *much* higher market share in europe than apple has

    < snip >
    --
    What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth? Judging from realistic
    simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog,
    we can assume it will be pretty bad. --- Dave Barry


  18. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    "LusoTec" stated in post
    ffSdnSf66vEiJZ7UnZ2dnUVZ8j6dnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/25/08 5:24 PM:

    > Snit wrote:
    >> "LusoTec" stated in post
    >> 7rmdnRGfot9KXpzUnZ2dnUVZ8uSdnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/24/08 5:47 AM:
    >>> I don't have first hand experience with US IT ecosystem but some things
    >>> are certainly different.
    >>>
    >>> In Portugal, FOSS is being promoted by *part* of the government and
    >>> public administration. There was a CD being distributed in schools and
    >>> public services with OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP, and several other FOSSs.
    >>> All public web services are tested in Firefox. The new laptop for young
    >>> school children has a GNU/Linux option along with Windows XP.

    >>
    >> In one of the schools I set up I have a Linux lab (Ubuntu, specifically)
    >> with all of the software you mention, excluding GIMP. I would love it if
    >> there would be a greater insistence in this country that things work on
    >> Firefox - though some things that used to work on FF2 no longer work on
    >> FF3 (which is not to say it is not a wonderful browser!)

    >
    > I also had to do some minor changes to some templates, mostly minor changes.


    The biggest problem I have run into with Firefox 3 is that some uploads do
    not work. I use BlackBoard and my students are running into issues where
    when they try to upload PDFs with FF3 they are told their files are corrupt.
    Works fine in FF2, IE2, IE3 on the Mac, and Safari.

    > IE8 and Chrome support required more work. Now if only IE6 died for good
    > instead of being a walking rotting nasty zombie I would be a lot
    > happier.


    What? Are you next going to tell me you actually want png transparency to
    work and want to be able to do layout with CSS?

    >>> One other aspect that is different from the US is that Macs are a very
    >>> rare bread here. Linux has a significantly higher market and user share
    >>> than Macs.

    >>
    >> That is very different than here... we have about 20% Macs in the home
    >> and, maybe, 1% Linux. In the business world, though, Macs are not nearly
    >> as common.

    >
    > I did not know Macs had such a high user share in the homes. I wounder why
    > did it not take has well in Europe.


    I do not know... good question. I do know that Apple tends to charge more
    in Europe and they do not market as much there.

    >>> It may be a "bit much" but ... it works. People download it and some
    >>> start using it as their main office suite.

    >>
    >> That works when you are in a position of some authority... but what if you
    >> needed to send files to a client or a boss or a teacher and they wanted MS
    >> Word files? I am in that situation... have had to go back to MS Word more
    >> than I wanted to.

    >
    > I'm not in a position of authority (not exactly) but most times people need
    > to see the documents I send them more than I need them to see the documents
    > (I think that is what I mean).


    Then, for the sake of "power" in the relationship, you are the authority.

    > When someone says (s)he can't open the document I send them information on
    > OpenOffice and ODF. When someone asks me to send the document in another
    > format I don't make any resistance and send it to them (if I possible can)
    > but still put a word for OpenOffice and ODF. I have no intention to force
    > or even pressure people to use a format or program. I don't even insist, I
    > inform the person once and that is it.


    Fair enough - *especially* since there is a free product that is available
    for Windows, OS X, and Linux.

    >>> Agreed. A "consistent user experience" is important for an inexperienced
    >>> user. It softens the learning curve. Powerful customization possibilities
    >>> are only attractive for experienced users.

    >>
    >> A consistent user experience is important for far more than just new
    >> users. It is, I think, one of the things that is holding Linux back in so
    >> many parts of the world. There are some pockets where Linux has taken
    >> hold, sometimes based on government action, but for the most part it is a
    >> bit of a mess right now in terms of usability. I suspect, however, that
    >> this will decrease as an issue greatly over the next few years.

    >
    > I don't know, you may be right.
    >
    > What I know is that the more customization options are available the
    > less "consistent user experience" there will be and GNU/Linux certainly has
    > many many many options.


    I disagree: if there was more consistency that was built from software
    holding to the standard of the distro (or user preferences) you would likely
    see *more* options... options that are now not seen because they are of
    little value unless they work in all or at least most programs.

    > I have several friends and colleagues that have used GNU/Linux for many
    > years and are very experienced with it. If you look at their personal
    > desktop environment you will not see two that look similar.


    I am not against customization and personalization. What I do want to see
    is the ability, on Linux, for a distro (or user, really) to decide what Save
    As dialogs they want to use and what Print dialogs they want to use and what
    the termination command will be (Quit, Close, or Exit) and what the keyboard
    short cut will be for that (and extent that to printing and saving and
    copying and pasting and preferences, etc.)

    If you could do that you open the door to a lot *more* options and higher
    level options. If someone wanted to make their system be inconsistent they
    should be able to do so, of course.

    Some examples of things that might grow from this: an indicator on the title
    bar that tells the user if they have unsaved work, a "proxy" icon on the
    title bar that a user can work with like they could the "regular" icon, a
    way to traverse the path from the title bar, etc. These examples are
    directly from OS X - it would be great if Linux users had these things, and
    more, as *options*.

    > Some have lots of widgets, icons and whatever on the screen (think air plain
    > ****pit), some have 4 toolbars one for each side of the screen and the
    > windows open in the middle, some have one toolbar (top or bottom), one has
    > nothing on the desktop and has to click to open menus and such, one does
    > not even use X windows on a regular base and sticks to several virtual
    > consoles and ssh connections with liberal use of screens.


    I would hate to see those options go away...

    > On top of that, some use KDE, some Gnome, some E8, etc, with different
    > widget sets, window decorations, most use 3D composition with a bunch of
    > effects, some don't, different key shortcuts, different locales, etc.
    >
    > Even a experienced GNU/Linux user will take a pause to check his(er)
    > bearings when at first looking at one of those systems.


    Of course... and I am all for that.

    > This much customization certainly hurts "consistent user experience" but I'm
    > certain that none of them will trade customization for consistency.


    Let me clarify: I would be completely *against* taking customization options
    away... what I want is options that are more universal to be available.
    Currently they are not.


    --
    Is Swiss cheese made out of hole milk?


  19. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    "Peter Köhlmann" stated in post
    4903bc52$0$16180$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net on 10/25/08 5:39 PM:

    ....
    > Linux has a *much* higher market share in europe than apple has


    I would *love* to see your support for this.



    --
    Picture of a tuna milkshake: http://snipurl.com/f34z
    Feel free to ask for the recipe.




  20. Re: OpenOffice.org 3.0 Already on Millions of PCs

    Snit wrote:
    > "LusoTec" stated in post
    > ffSdnSf66vEiJZ7UnZ2dnUVZ8j6dnZ2d@novis.pt on 10/25/08 5:24 PM:
    >> IE8 and Chrome support required more work. Now if only IE6 died for good
    >> instead of being a walking rotting nasty zombie I would be a lot
    >> happier.

    >
    > What? Are you next going to tell me you actually want png transparency to
    > work and want to be able to do layout with CSS?


    Yes, I'm very demanding!

    >> I did not know Macs had such a high user share in the homes. I wounder
    >> why did it not take has well in Europe.

    >
    > I do not know... good question. I do know that Apple tends to charge more
    > in Europe and they do not market as much there.


    Apple's marketing and pricing strategy is certainly one of the causes but my
    main question focused on why did Apple not try harder to be competitive in
    Europe. For the iPhone they did a ridiculous (literally) amount of
    marketing so why did Apple not push the Mac PCs harder? More competition
    would be welcomed.

    >> I don't know, you may be right.
    >>
    >> What I know is that the more customization options are available the
    >> less "consistent user experience" there will be and GNU/Linux certainly
    >> has many many many options.

    >
    > I disagree: if there was more consistency that was built from software
    > holding to the standard of the distro (or user preferences) you would
    > likely see *more* options... options that are now not seen because they
    > are of little value unless they work in all or at least most programs.
    >
    >> I have several friends and colleagues that have used GNU/Linux for many
    >> years and are very experienced with it. If you look at their personal
    >> desktop environment you will not see two that look similar.

    >
    > I am not against customization and personalization. What I do want to see
    > is the ability, on Linux, for a distro (or user, really) to decide what
    > Save As dialogs they want to use and what Print dialogs they want to use
    > and what the termination command will be (Quit, Close, or Exit) and what
    > the keyboard short cut will be for that (and extent that to printing and
    > saving and copying and pasting and preferences, etc.)
    >
    > If you could do that you open the door to a lot *more* options and higher
    > level options. If someone wanted to make their system be inconsistent
    > they should be able to do so, of course.
    >
    > Some examples of things that might grow from this: an indicator on the
    > title bar that tells the user if they have unsaved work, a "proxy" icon on
    > the title bar that a user can work with like they could the "regular"
    > icon, a
    > way to traverse the path from the title bar, etc. These examples are
    > directly from OS X - it would be great if Linux users had these things,
    > and more, as *options*.


    That kind of in one place all programs customization would be superb but
    would require a common base API to be used by all GUI programs. It does not
    happen now in GNU/Linux (and not even in OS X or Windows) and it's unlikely
    to happen in the near future.

    If one of the GUI APIs in use today (e.g. QT, GTK, wxWidgets) was to become
    dominant and a defact standard then that would be relatively easy to
    acomplish. For example, KDE/QT already has the infrastructure to achieve
    most of that and programmers only have to follow some coding practices to
    get them for free.

    >> Some have lots of widgets, icons and whatever on the screen (think air
    >> plain ****pit), some have 4 toolbars one for each side of the screen and
    >> the windows open in the middle, some have one toolbar (top or bottom),
    >> one has nothing on the desktop and has to click to open menus and such,
    >> one does not even use X windows on a regular base and sticks to several
    >> virtual consoles and ssh connections with liberal use of screens.

    >
    > I would hate to see those options go away...
    >
    >> On top of that, some use KDE, some Gnome, some E8, etc, with different
    >> widget sets, window decorations, most use 3D composition with a bunch of
    >> effects, some don't, different key shortcuts, different locales, etc.
    >>
    >> Even a experienced GNU/Linux user will take a pause to check his(er)
    >> bearings when at first looking at one of those systems.

    >
    > Of course... and I am all for that.
    >
    >> This much customization certainly hurts "consistent user experience" but
    >> I'm certain that none of them will trade customization for consistency.

    >
    > Let me clarify: I would be completely *against* taking customization
    > options away... what I want is options that are more universal to be
    > available. Currently they are not.


    I miss the "consistent user experience" more intensely when I'm using other
    peoples systems so my examples of inconsistency reflected that.

    Many users do not stick with a single computer (e.g. home and work) and to
    achieve a "consistent user experience" not only in one system but also
    across systems some way to share the "customization" would be needed.
    Exporting/Importing to/from a file or server would do the trick.

    Just imagine, getting in from of a computer (e.g. friend's, client's),
    inserting a USB stick or type a URL, click import and getting your
    customized environment ready to use.

    Regards.

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