Re: Why buy Microsoft Office? - Linux

This is a discussion on Re: Why buy Microsoft Office? - Linux ; In article , Roy Schestowitz wrote: > For the cost of Microsoft Office they could drop the Wintendo and get a > Nintendo (Wii). Even 2 or 3 of them, depending on the country. That's how > overpriced the licence ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

  1. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    In article <1262080.XaffI30VyH@schestowitz.com>,
    Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    > For the cost of Microsoft Office they could drop the Wintendo and get a
    > Nintendo (Wii). Even 2 or 3 of them, depending on the country. That's how
    > overpriced the licence to /use/ Microsoft blobs really is.


    My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I get a Wii (or 2
    or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?



    --
    --Tim Smith

  2. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:00:08 -0700
    Tim Smith wrote:

    > My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I get a Wii (or
    > 2 or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?


    You paid just over $33.33 per license for MS Office?

    And how did you accomplish that? The _student_ edition of MS Office
    runs ~$150 for one (very limited in use) license.[1] Even their
    "ultimate steal" program costs $59.95, and that is the lowest I have
    ever (legitimately) seen Microsoft Office software sell for.[2]

    --- Mike

    [1] http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/su...674081033.aspx
    [2]
    http://www.microsoft.com/student/dis...s/default.aspx

    --
    My sigfile ran away and is on hiatus.


  3. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:11:04 -0400, Michael B. Trausch wrote:

    > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:00:08 -0700
    > Tim Smith wrote:
    >
    >> My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I get a Wii (or
    >> 2 or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?

    >
    > You paid just over $33.33 per license for MS Office?
    >
    > And how did you accomplish that? The _student_ edition of MS Office
    > runs ~$150 for one (very limited in use) license.[1] Even their
    > "ultimate steal" program costs $59.95, and that is the lowest I have
    > ever (legitimately) seen Microsoft Office software sell for.[2]
    >
    > --- Mike
    >
    > [1] http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/su...674081033.aspx
    > [2]
    > http://www.microsoft.com/student/dis...s/default.aspx


    It's $40.00 here because the school subsidizes it.

    I have 3 kids in college and that is what I paid.

    BTW all 3 schools, specifically stated that OpenOffice is NOT supported.

    Neither is Linux for that matter.


    For $40 bucks why bother with freetardware?

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  4. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    > Michael B. Trausch wrote:
    >> Tim Smith wrote:
    >>
    >>> My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I
    >>> get a Wii (or 2 or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?

    >> You paid just over $33.33 per license for MS Office?
    >>
    >> And how did you accomplish that? The _student_ edition of
    >> MS Office runs ~$150 for one (very limited in use)
    >> license.[1] Even their "ultimate steal" program costs
    >> $59.95, and that is the lowest I have ever (legitimately)
    >> seen Microsoft Office software sell for.[2]
    >>
    >> [1]
    >> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/su...674081033.aspx
    >> [2]
    >> http://www.microsoft.com/student/dis...s/default.aspx

    >
    > It's $40.00 here because the school subsidizes it. I have 3
    > kids in college and that is what I paid. BTW all 3 schools,
    > specifically stated that OpenOffice is NOT supported. Neither
    > is Linux for that matter. For $40 bucks why bother with
    > freetardware?


    That's because they have Daddy to take care of them.

    It is different for someone who is supporting themselves without
    a substantial subsistence source.

    Very simply that $40 is something that can go towards more
    essential expenses like meals. As a college student, I purchased
    a TI-58 calculator. One engineering student commented on my
    purchase of a cheap calculator instead of an HP quality one. His
    cost $400, mine $100. I was on my own without parental support.
    That TI-58 served me well for several years, although it was
    "less elegant". It with the companion printer allowed me to
    complete both undergraduate and graduate Numerical Methods courses.

    I knew of engineering students who did their homework on the back
    side of discarded computer printout paper. They did this because
    of budgetary reasons. The profs didn't care as long as they had
    something to grade.

    A starving college student with a well used Pentium-III computer,
    hand-me-down printer, Linux and OpenOffice will go a long way
    toward meeting needs towards graduation on a shoestring budget.

    --
    HPT
    Quando omni flunkus moritati
    (If all else fails, play dead)
    - "Red" Green

  5. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:48:41 -0600
    High Plains Thumper wrote:

    > I knew of engineering students who did their homework on the back
    > side of discarded computer printout paper. They did this because
    > of budgetary reasons. The profs didn't care as long as they had
    > something to grade.


    Interesting, that. I figured it was still that way today in
    brick-and-mortar schools, but it doesn't appear that way---a friend of
    mine goes to Georgia Institute of Technology and the majority of
    professors there require that assignments are turned in electronically
    now.

    You can of course use whatever software you want, so long as it's in
    the right format when its turned in. But I think this retarded, because
    they do not require a format like PDF or even XPS (even though I'd
    argue that XPS is stupid itself, PDF having existed for years and being
    a de facto document exchange standard). They require Microsoft Office
    formats, with exception for special sources that use software that
    require different other formats (some engineering things and the
    like). The computers even do half the grading for the professors
    nowadays, automatically figuring in things like tardiness deductions
    and whatnot... ahh, how wonderful technology is.

    --- Mike

    --
    My sigfile ran away and is on hiatus.


  6. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 20:48:41 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >> Michael B. Trausch wrote:
    >>> Tim Smith wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I
    >>>> get a Wii (or 2 or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?
    >>> You paid just over $33.33 per license for MS Office?
    >>>
    >>> And how did you accomplish that? The _student_ edition of
    >>> MS Office runs ~$150 for one (very limited in use)
    >>> license.[1] Even their "ultimate steal" program costs
    >>> $59.95, and that is the lowest I have ever (legitimately)
    >>> seen Microsoft Office software sell for.[2]
    >>>
    >>> [1]
    >>> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/su...674081033.aspx
    >>> [2]
    >>> http://www.microsoft.com/student/dis...s/default.aspx

    >>
    >> It's $40.00 here because the school subsidizes it. I have 3
    >> kids in college and that is what I paid. BTW all 3 schools,
    >> specifically stated that OpenOffice is NOT supported. Neither
    >> is Linux for that matter. For $40 bucks why bother with
    >> freetardware?

    >
    > That's because they have Daddy to take care of them.
    >
    > It is different for someone who is supporting themselves without
    > a substantial subsistence source.
    >
    > Very simply that $40 is something that can go towards more
    > essential expenses like meals. As a college student, I purchased
    > a TI-58 calculator. One engineering student commented on my
    > purchase of a cheap calculator instead of an HP quality one. His
    > cost $400, mine $100. I was on my own without parental support.
    > That TI-58 served me well for several years, although it was
    > "less elegant". It with the companion printer allowed me to
    > complete both undergraduate and graduate Numerical Methods courses.
    >
    > I knew of engineering students who did their homework on the back
    > side of discarded computer printout paper. They did this because
    > of budgetary reasons. The profs didn't care as long as they had
    > something to grade.
    >
    > A starving college student with a well used Pentium-III computer,
    > hand-me-down printer, Linux and OpenOffice will go a long way
    > toward meeting needs towards graduation on a shoestring budget.


    I won't argue or disagree with your comments however things are a lot
    different these days compared to when *I*, and probably you went to
    college.
    Hope scholarships, tax deductions, lifetime scholarships etc are all part
    of my taxes and deductions for the kids college.
    In the grand scheme of things, $40.00 is nothing, especially when you see
    what textbooks cost and my kids buy used when possible.

    BTW I had a TI calculator in college as well. Can't remember the model but
    it used magnetic strips. I later got an HP41CV and of course the kids when
    in high school had to get the TI53 something or other, the graphing one.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  7. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    In article ,
    Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Tim Smith belched out
    > this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    > > In article <1262080.XaffI30VyH@schestowitz.com>,
    > > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    > >> For the cost of Microsoft Office they could drop the Wintendo and get a
    > >> Nintendo (Wii). Even 2 or 3 of them, depending on the country. That's how
    > >> overpriced the licence to /use/ Microsoft blobs really is.

    > >
    > > My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I get a Wii (or 2
    > > or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?

    >
    > Where the hell can you get MS Office so cheap? Here?:


    Home and Student Edition. It's got all the important parts (Word,
    Excel), and comes with 3 licenses.


    --
    --Tim Smith

  8. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    In article <20081014221104.238aea26@zest>,
    "Michael B. Trausch" wrote:

    > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:00:08 -0700
    > Tim Smith wrote:
    >
    > > My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I get a Wii (or
    > > 2 or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?

    >
    > You paid just over $33.33 per license for MS Office?
    >
    > And how did you accomplish that? The _student_ edition of MS Office
    > runs ~$150 for one (very limited in use) license.[1] Even their
    > "ultimate steal" program costs $59.95, and that is the lowest I have
    > ever (legitimately) seen Microsoft Office software sell for.[2]


    The Home and Student Edition is $100, and includes 3 licenses:



    although I probably actually spent a little more, because I have the Mac
    version, which is $120:



    I have a Professional Edition license for 2004, so could have got 2008
    Professional at upgrade pricing, but I didn't bother, as Home and
    Student Edition includes pretty much all the good parts (in particular,
    Word and Excel), and costs less than a Professional upgrade.



    --
    --Tim Smith

  9. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:02:34 -0400
    "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:

    > Do you really know for certain that you chrats, tables, footnotes
    > that you prepared with OpenOffice are going to look fine when your
    > professor opens them with Word?
    > Do you?


    You can't be sure of that from one instance of Microsoft Word to
    another. Microsoft Word formats based on many things, some of which
    include the metrics of your _current_ printer driver, the algorithms
    you have enabled or disabled in Word, whether or not you're using
    various compatibility modes, or whatever.

    When I was in middle school, I would use MS Word on my home PC (my dad
    had it, and I figured it'd be useful for the same reason you're making
    your argument). The paper had to be no longer than 4 pages. This was
    fine, since it was formatted correctly.

    I went to school---same _version_ of MS Word, even, only difference was
    the printer---and all of a sudden my paper which was *exactly* four
    pages was now 4 and a half.

    I've seen this behavior as recent as Word 2003, though not to such a
    grotesque scale. Table formatting and the like get all screwed up from
    system to system, particularly if you are a perfectionist about your
    formatting and anchor things to get a perfect layout. The only way to be
    *absolutely* sure, even among Windows systems, is to use PDF. Then you
    know that your document will be viewed as it was intended to be, and
    will print exactly as you expect. For that matter, since the school
    required Word documents to use tools on them, I supplied Word documents
    (for the tools to analyze/inspect), and gave a PDF at the same time.
    Why? Because formatting in Word is _unreliable_, and not just for
    OpenOffice.org->Word conversions or the opposite.

    >
    > I agree with some of what you are saying however I am a firm believer
    > in using what is specified for a given situation and not spinning my
    > wheels trying to fit what *I* want to use into that particular
    > situation.
    >


    The problem is that what is specified is often too specific because
    people are stupid. The requirements for school? A word processor,
    maybe a spreadsheet if you have to do some number crunching and
    analysis. Microsoft Word is the only example that most management
    types are even aware of, so of course they're going to say that. Some
    people still use (ack!) Microsoft Works. Hey, to each their own.

    >
    > OPenOffice is no MSOffice and that's a fact.
    > A college student would be crazy to use it when the rest of the school
    > is using MSOffice and considering the Microsoft prodcut is
    > inexpensive for students, and in some schools is even pre-loaded on
    > their laptops, why bother?
    >


    Assuming that you get the software _for free_, and you are willing to
    agree to the license, fine---use it. I don't care what licenses you
    agree to or disagree with.

    >
    > Why be the oddball in the class?
    >
    > For what?
    >


    In part because I can't afford the software (not all schools subsidize
    these things you know), in part because I can't _stand_ Windows because
    of the way it breaks down horribly under heavy usage (and I *do* use my
    computer very heavily), in part because I can't stand the license and
    absolutely do not agree with it (and I won't click "I Agree" to
    something that I don't agree with and won't follow, that's simply
    unethical), and in part because I don't run Windows. The closest I
    come to Windows is fixing it on other people's systems.

    >
    > To be some freedom fighter and to declare yourself Microsoft free?
    >
    > That's the lunacy I speak of.
    >


    No. I believe in choice more than anything else. If a person does not
    know of an alternative, then they cannot, by definition make a choice.
    If they are aware of the choice, and know the options well, and make a
    choice after that, hey---that's their thing. If _you_ don't want to
    use a piece of software because someone you're purchasing a service
    from says "We use Microsoft Word," then fine---that is, after all, your
    choice.

    What I have the issue with is the claim that it _cannot_ be done. That
    claim is patently false. I interoperate every single day with clients
    and other people, and I don't have Microsoft's Office installed on my
    system. Does the formatting suffer? Depends on the complexity of the
    document and how much is manually specified in terms of formatting, but
    then again, that happens from one system to another running Word
    anyway. (It is even worse when someone uses non-standard fonts in a
    document and then doesn't embed them, which is why PDF is so much more
    preferable.)

    --- Mike

    --
    My sigfile ran away and is on hiatus.


  10. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    Tim Smith writes:

    > In article ,
    > Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    >
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Tim Smith belched out
    >> this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >> > In article <1262080.XaffI30VyH@schestowitz.com>,
    >> > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >> >> For the cost of Microsoft Office they could drop the Wintendo and get a
    >> >> Nintendo (Wii). Even 2 or 3 of them, depending on the country. That's how
    >> >> overpriced the licence to /use/ Microsoft blobs really is.
    >> >
    >> > My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I get a Wii (or 2
    >> > or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?

    >>
    >> Where the hell can you get MS Office so cheap? Here?:

    >
    > Home and Student Edition. It's got all the important parts (Word,
    > Excel), and comes with 3 licenses.


    LOL. Poor Lliarmutt. All hot air,bluster and not a clue.

    --
    "Every piece of evidence I've heard from developers inside Microsoft
    supports my theory that the company has become completely tangled up in..."
    -- William Poaster boring people again in comp.os.linux.advocacy

  11. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    "Michael B. Trausch" writes:

    > On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:02:34 -0400
    > "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:
    >
    >> Do you really know for certain that you chrats, tables, footnotes
    >> that you prepared with OpenOffice are going to look fine when your
    >> professor opens them with Word?
    >> Do you?

    >
    > You can't be sure of that from one instance of Microsoft Word to
    > another. Microsoft Word formats based on many things, some of which
    > include the metrics of your _current_ printer driver, the algorithms
    > you have enabled or disabled in Word, whether or not you're using
    > various compatibility modes, or whatever.


    Total and utter nonsense. Businesses the world over operate with none of
    these horror stories.

    > When I was in middle school, I would use MS Word on my home PC (my dad
    > had it, and I figured it'd be useful for the same reason you're making
    > your argument). The paper had to be no longer than 4 pages. This was
    > fine, since it was formatted correctly.


    That makes zero sense.

    >
    > I went to school---same _version_ of MS Word, even, only difference was
    > the printer---and all of a sudden my paper which was *exactly* four
    > pages was now 4 and a half.


    Probably because of default font settings since you had not explicitly
    set them.

    Most people are more worried about layout and concistency than "number
    of pages".

    >
    > I've seen this behavior as recent as Word 2003, though not to such a
    > grotesque scale. Table formatting and the like get all screwed up from
    > system to system, particularly if you are a perfectionist about your


    No they don't. Sigh. Another COLA "advocate" in action.

    > formatting and anchor things to get a perfect layout. The only way to be
    > *absolutely* sure, even among Windows systems, is to use PDF. Then you
    > know that your document will be viewed as it was intended to be, and
    > will print exactly as you expect. For that matter, since the school
    > required Word documents to use tools on them, I supplied Word documents
    > (for the tools to analyze/inspect), and gave a PDF at the same time.
    > Why? Because formatting in Word is _unreliable_, and not just for
    > OpenOffice.org->Word conversions or the opposite.


    Are you related to Kelsey?

    >
    >>
    >> I agree with some of what you are saying however I am a firm believer
    >> in using what is specified for a given situation and not spinning my
    >> wheels trying to fit what *I* want to use into that particular
    >> situation.
    >>

    >
    > The problem is that what is specified is often too specific because
    > people are stupid. The requirements for school? A word processor,
    > maybe a spreadsheet if you have to do some number crunching and
    > analysis. Microsoft Word is the only example that most management
    > types are even aware of, so of course they're going to say that. Some
    > people still use (ack!) Microsoft Works. Hey, to each their own.


    OK. Listen up : the document is a medium to present your work. They dont
    want the hassle of multiple formats. Tough. But that's life. I most
    certainly would not recommend using OO to a student whose professors
    demand word format. Some tired academic doesnt give a **** about OSS at
    3 in the morning when reviewing someones work. Thats life.

    >>
    >> OPenOffice is no MSOffice and that's a fact.
    >> A college student would be crazy to use it when the rest of the school
    >> is using MSOffice and considering the Microsoft prodcut is
    >> inexpensive for students, and in some schools is even pre-loaded on
    >> their laptops, why bother?
    >>

    >
    > Assuming that you get the software _for free_, and you are willing to
    > agree to the license, fine---use it. I don't care what licenses you
    > agree to or disagree with.


    "for free". hmm ....


    >
    >>
    >> Why be the oddball in the class?
    >>
    >> For what?
    >>

    >
    > In part because I can't afford the software (not all schools subsidize
    > these things you know), in part because I can't _stand_ Windows because
    > of the way it breaks down horribly under heavy usage (and I *do* use my
    > computer very heavily), in part because I can't stand the license and
    > absolutely do not agree with it (and I won't click "I Agree" to
    > something that I don't agree with and won't follow, that's simply
    > unethical), and in part because I don't run Windows. The closest I
    > come to Windows is fixing it on other people's systems.


    You're telling lies. If you do not use Windows you sure as hell would
    not be able to fix it on other peoples. I stopped using Windows for work
    about a year ago. I recently set up some SW on someones Vista system for
    them. I was scratching my head most of the time. The Linux way is fa
    superior I freely admit.

    >
    >>
    >> To be some freedom fighter and to declare yourself Microsoft free?
    >>
    >> That's the lunacy I speak of.
    >>

    >
    > No. I believe in choice more than anything else. If a person does not
    > know of an alternative, then they cannot, by definition make a choice.


    if they are too pig ignorant to search an alternative what are you going
    to do?

    > If they are aware of the choice, and know the options well, and make a
    > choice after that, hey---that's their thing. If _you_ don't want to
    > use a piece of software because someone you're purchasing a service
    > from says "We use Microsoft Word," then fine---that is, after all, your
    > choice.


    Yes.

    >
    > What I have the issue with is the claim that it _cannot_ be done. That
    > claim is patently false. I interoperate every single day with clients
    > and other people, and I don't have Microsoft's Office installed on my
    > system. Does the formatting suffer? Depends on the complexity of the
    > document and how much is manually specified in terms of formatting,
    > but


    So we'll take at as an admission that anything other than pretty basic
    stuff gets screwed. You are in agreement with Liarmutt (Chris Ahlstrom)
    who recently admitted to using MS Word for that very same reason.

    > then again, that happens from one system to another running Word
    > anyway. (It is even worse when someone uses non-standard fonts in a
    > document and then doesn't embed them, which is why PDF is so much more
    > preferable.)


    I think you are exaggerating this.

    >
    > --- Mike


    --
    "Every piece of evidence I've heard from developers inside Microsoft
    supports my theory that the company has become completely tangled up in..."
    -- William Poaster boring people again in comp.os.linux.advocacy

  12. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    In article ,
    "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:
    > BTW I had a TI calculator in college as well. Can't remember the model but
    > it used magnetic strips. I later got an HP41CV and of course the kids when
    > in high school had to get the TI53 something or other, the graphing one.


    For that TI calculator, does the name "SR-52" ring a bell or bring back
    some memories?

    I had one in high school, and spent a lot of time hacking on it. It had
    some interesting quirks that made hacking interesting. For example, the
    program storage and data storage were separate, but you could make it
    use the data storage to store code. However, the data storage was meant
    for storing numbers, encoded in BCD, not straight binary. One nibble of
    each word of data storage was used to store the sign bits for the number
    and exponent, with the other two bits of that nibble unused.
    Apparently, memory was very tight, because those unused bits were not
    actually implemented! That is, if you stored a word in the data
    storage, and retrieved it, those two bits always came back zero. This
    mean that if you wanted to store code in the data storage, you had to be
    careful to make sure any instructions that ended up using those
    particular nibbles had 0's in those particular bits.

    I wrote a program for it once to calculate where a spacecraft would be,
    given the time and the orbital elements, and it came out too big to fit
    in the calculator's memory (even with the trick of using data storage to
    hold program steps), so I actually wrote a little kernel that
    implemented a swapping system that would let me split the program among
    multiple cards.

    That was my last TI. Next time I needed to buy a calculator, I got an
    HP-15C and later supplemented that with an HP-16C. Those were followed
    by an HP-48SX.

    (OK, I missed one in there...somewhere in there I got a Casio scientific
    calculator watch).

    The HP41C was an interesting calculator. I never had one, but knew many
    people who did (it was somewhat of a geek status symbol around Caltech
    in the late '70s). Some people did some very interesting hacks with it.
    For instance, it turned out that it could be *massively* over-clocked.
    The cost of that was a severe reduction in battery life (which is why HP
    ran them at the speed they did--their marketing folks correctly figured
    that people would not be interested in a blazing fast calculator that
    would burn through a set of batteries in an hour!). In fact, it could
    be over-clocked sufficiently that it would kick the ass of the typical
    minicomputer of the day at floating point. Some people actually hacked
    up interfaces to wire HP41C's into the PDP-11 computers, so that PDP-11
    programs could use the calculator for floating point calculations.


    --
    --Tim Smith

  13. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:35:46 +0200
    Hadron wrote:

    > >
    > > I went to school---same _version_ of MS Word, even, only difference
    > > was the printer---and all of a sudden my paper which was *exactly*
    > > four pages was now 4 and a half.

    >
    > Probably because of default font settings since you had not explicitly
    > set them.
    >
    > Most people are more worried about layout and concistency than "number
    > of pages".


    Agreed.

    But the overall point---whether you want to contest it or not---is that
    formatting differs from one instance to another. The problem has
    gotten to be _much_ better these days. Word doesn't use the, say,
    printer metrics for everything that it used to. This is a good thing.

    But what is lacking in the Word format is the exact specification of
    the document's appearance. PDF gets it right, and the PDF documents
    have far less (storage) overhead when compared to Word documents. So,
    it's not a technical or space conservation reason that Word doesn't
    save that sort of information. (To be fair, OpenOffice.org doesn't
    save such information either.)

    Any document not in an exact storage format is also vulnerable to
    different _versions_ of fonts being installed and thus having different
    _font_ metrics. Again, PDF guards against that (font metrics are stored
    directly in the PDF, along with the embedded, subsetted font).

    In any event, it *is* much better these days. This is why I can
    interoperate and not have issues.

    > >
    > > What I have the issue with is the claim that it _cannot_ be done.
    > > That claim is patently false. I interoperate every single day with
    > > clients and other people, and I don't have Microsoft's Office
    > > installed on my system. Does the formatting suffer? Depends on the
    > > complexity of the document and how much is manually specified in
    > > terms of formatting, but

    >
    > So we'll take at as an admission that anything other than pretty basic
    > stuff gets screwed. You are in agreement with Liarmutt (Chris
    > Ahlstrom) who recently admitted to using MS Word for that very same
    > reason.
    >


    No, that is not what I said. I work with pretty complex documents
    fairly regularly without issue. I'd say that the *insanely* complex
    documents (ones that are far, far outside of the norm) are the ones
    that have issues. They're also the same sorts of documents that if
    they were done in any other document system would be summarily rejected
    based on bad practice in its assembly. The sorts of issues that I am
    talking about are fairly simple in nature (such as an image close to
    the bottom of a page on one system being on the top of the next page
    on a different system, and the like), and, much like the issues that
    people have been known to have with Red Hat's RPM package format, could
    really easily be fixed by having a little bit more metadata contained
    in the document format. However, I don't see that happening; at least,
    not anytime soon.

    Most of the time, though, the "suffering" in terms of formatting that I
    speak of is that things move around---ever so slightly---within the
    document when it is paginated by the word processor. Little things.
    But I am the type of person that demands that things be *exactly* where
    I want them. So, this very little issue (which most people probably
    don't even notice, I would be willing to guess) is an issue that bugs
    the ****** out of me.

    --- Mike

    --
    My sigfile ran away and is on hiatus.


  14. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Michael B. Trausch belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:35:46 +0200
    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > Most of the time, though, the "suffering" in terms of formatting that I
    > speak of is that things move around---ever so slightly---within the
    > document when it is paginated by the word processor. Little things.
    > But I am the type of person that demands that things be *exactly* where
    > I want them. So, this very little issue (which most people probably
    > don't even notice, I would be willing to guess) is an issue that bugs
    > the ****** out of me.


    I've found the biggest issues between OO and MSO documents to be these:

    1. Numbering. Not only does Open Office have trouble with numbering
    in Word documents, so does Word. Word's handling of numbered
    items is a train wreck.

    2. Oddball fonts. This isn't really the fault of MSO or OO, but
    sometime some dude will set his text in some offbeat variation of
    a font that some Windows application just /had/ to install.

    3. Comments. Lots of people like to use those comment balloons to
    mark up a document. OO doesn't handle them well when they're in a
    Word document.

    4. Document corruption. You can edit an OO document all day long,
    save it to Word format, no problem. No one will notice.

    But once some nitwit uses MSO to edit it, all bets are off.

    The solution is obvious. Everyone should dump MSO and switch to OO, heh
    heh.

    --
    Laugh, and the world ignores you. Crying doesn't help either.

  15. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Tim Smith belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > In article ,
    > Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
    >
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Tim Smith belched out
    >> this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >> > In article <1262080.XaffI30VyH@schestowitz.com>,
    >> > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >> >> For the cost of Microsoft Office they could drop the Wintendo and get a
    >> >> Nintendo (Wii). Even 2 or 3 of them, depending on the country. That's how
    >> >> overpriced the licence to /use/ Microsoft blobs really is.
    >> >
    >> > My 3 Office licenses cost a total of $100. Where can I get a Wii (or 2
    >> > or 3 of them!) for $100, Roy?

    >>
    >> Where the hell can you get MS Office so cheap? Here?:

    >
    > Home and Student Edition. It's got all the important parts (Word,
    > Excel), and comes with 3 licenses.


    Nice little nuance with the 'licenses' (as opposed to copies) there.

    Why 3 though?

    --
    McDonald's -- Because you're worth it.

  16. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Tim Smith belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > The HP41C was an interesting calculator. I never had one, but knew many
    > people who did (it was somewhat of a geek status symbol around Caltech
    > in the late '70s). Some people did some very interesting hacks with it.
    > For instance, it turned out that it could be *massively* over-clocked.
    > The cost of that was a severe reduction in battery life (which is why HP
    > ran them at the speed they did--their marketing folks correctly figured
    > that people would not be interested in a blazing fast calculator that
    > would burn through a set of batteries in an hour!). In fact, it could
    > be over-clocked sufficiently that it would kick the ass of the typical
    > minicomputer of the day at floating point. Some people actually hacked
    > up interfaces to wire HP41C's into the PDP-11 computers, so that PDP-11
    > programs could use the calculator for floating point calculations.




    You are indeed the Prince of Geeks!

    --
    I can read your mind, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

  17. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 20:35:46 +0200, Hadron wrote:


    > OK. Listen up : the document is a medium to present your work. They dont
    > want the hassle of multiple formats. Tough. But that's life. I most
    > certainly would not recommend using OO to a student whose professors
    > demand word format. Some tired academic doesnt give a **** about OSS at
    > 3 in the morning when reviewing someones work. Thats life.


    And that's the entire point..........

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  18. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:39:03 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

    > In article ,
    > "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:
    >> BTW I had a TI calculator in college as well. Can't remember the model but
    >> it used magnetic strips. I later got an HP41CV and of course the kids when
    >> in high school had to get the TI53 something or other, the graphing one.

    >
    > For that TI calculator, does the name "SR-52" ring a bell or bring back
    > some memories?
    >
    > I had one in high school, and spent a lot of time hacking on it. It had
    > some interesting quirks that made hacking interesting. For example, the
    > program storage and data storage were separate, but you could make it
    > use the data storage to store code. However, the data storage was meant
    > for storing numbers, encoded in BCD, not straight binary. One nibble of
    > each word of data storage was used to store the sign bits for the number
    > and exponent, with the other two bits of that nibble unused.
    > Apparently, memory was very tight, because those unused bits were not
    > actually implemented! That is, if you stored a word in the data
    > storage, and retrieved it, those two bits always came back zero. This
    > mean that if you wanted to store code in the data storage, you had to be
    > careful to make sure any instructions that ended up using those
    > particular nibbles had 0's in those particular bits.
    >
    > I wrote a program for it once to calculate where a spacecraft would be,
    > given the time and the orbital elements, and it came out too big to fit
    > in the calculator's memory (even with the trick of using data storage to
    > hold program steps), so I actually wrote a little kernel that
    > implemented a swapping system that would let me split the program among
    > multiple cards.
    >
    > That was my last TI. Next time I needed to buy a calculator, I got an
    > HP-15C and later supplemented that with an HP-16C. Those were followed
    > by an HP-48SX.
    >
    > (OK, I missed one in there...somewhere in there I got a Casio scientific
    > calculator watch).
    >
    > The HP41C was an interesting calculator. I never had one, but knew many
    > people who did (it was somewhat of a geek status symbol around Caltech
    > in the late '70s). Some people did some very interesting hacks with it.
    > For instance, it turned out that it could be *massively* over-clocked.
    > The cost of that was a severe reduction in battery life (which is why HP
    > ran them at the speed they did--their marketing folks correctly figured
    > that people would not be interested in a blazing fast calculator that
    > would burn through a set of batteries in an hour!). In fact, it could
    > be over-clocked sufficiently that it would kick the ass of the typical
    > minicomputer of the day at floating point. Some people actually hacked
    > up interfaces to wire HP41C's into the PDP-11 computers, so that PDP-11
    > programs could use the calculator for floating point calculations.


    WOW!!!

    We have a guru on our hands here!!

    Great post Tim and yes the SR-52 rings a bell with me.
    I didn't really program it except for one program which calculated how high
    and approximately how far away from the launch pad my Estes rockets would
    land etc.
    I had some canned programs that came in one of the add on kits.

    I'm looking at my HP 41CV now and good thing too because I have get
    batteries for it.
    I never had the re-chargeable pack.

    My very first calculator was in High School circa 1975 and was a
    Sperry Rand which was unusual because it did trig functions.
    The other oddball thing was it used a small 0 for zero.
    IOW the bottom half of an 8, which made it look kind of weird.

    Those were the days!

    My kids have that TI graphing calculator which does everything for them.
    They have no idea, I started with a slide rule which I still have as well.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  19. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > I doubt you cheap Linux users read EULA's except when you want to slam
    > Microsoft.


    But if you wanted to slam Microsoft, why would you look for ammunition in
    their EULAs? Microsoft is an ethical, caring corporation. Isn't it?

  20. Re: Why buy Microsoft Office?

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > For $40 bucks why bother with freetardware?


    Wait a minute... $40 for for "freetardware?" Why do they call M$
    Office "tardware" free?

    --
    RonB
    "There's a story there...somewhere"

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast