Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example. - Linux

This is a discussion on Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example. - Linux ; So I download the new Mandriva 2009, burn it with Brassero under Ubuntu and install it on my test partition on the same machine that Ubuntu and Windows XP is installed on. First observation is that booting the CD gives ...

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Thread: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

  1. Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.


    So I download the new Mandriva 2009, burn it with Brassero under Ubuntu and
    install it on my test partition on the same machine that Ubuntu and Windows
    XP is installed on.

    First observation is that booting the CD gives little or no feedback as to
    what is going on other than watching the drive light and even that is
    deceiving because Mandriva seems to load a lot into memory and execute from
    there compared to Ubuntu which is more CD intensive.
    Hitting alt-F1 works though, but noobs won't know this.

    I already have a blank/formatted ext3 and swap partition set up on my
    primary (C-Drive) so you would think Mandriva would be smart enough to see
    this and ask to use it.

    Nope.

    Mandriva want's to install on my 500g Audio drive which is /dev/sdc

    Bad.....

    I go into custom partitioning and fix things.

    Partitioning this way is as good as Ubuntu and MUCH better than Fedora.

    Install went smooth, a lot faster than the previous version of Mandriva I
    tried a couple of weeks ago.
    It adds all the sources and asks if you want the extra sources added, which
    I accepted.
    It did some updates and I noticed the mirrors are very fast and considering
    this is a new release that was a welcome surprise.

    Nvidia commercial driver is installed on install automatically, but it
    still doesn't recognize my dual displays.

    Ok, so I see the Nvidia-Settings program in the menus and click on it.
    It claims TwinView isn't enabled, yada, yada, yada but gives no option to
    turn it on!
    All kinds of crap about temperature and dvi and other 99 percent useless
    garbage but no option to set up dual displays.

    Incredible!

    So I go hunting and find the Mandriva system settings (root required) and
    find the setup display or Xserver, I forget what it's called.
    I go into that and I don't see a "Twinview" option however I see,
    "Duplicate display on secondary monitor" option.

    Now, to most people that means the same exact display on both monitors and
    NOT extending the monitor space.
    So, seeing as I have no other choice I select it, log out and in again and
    I have a single display....
    Yuk.....

    So back to nvidia-settings I go and NOW I can configure my secondary
    display.
    It takes all my settings and I go to save to the /etc/xorg file and of
    course it fails.
    But it doesn't fail with a permissions error, it fails with some oddball
    error that gives no indication what is wrong.

    Noob is dead here....

    So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...

    This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump Linux
    just as quickly.
    A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    place this days.

    Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    they release them?

    This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking that
    the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  2. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Nice "review", Moshe.

    I've never tried multiple monitors (on Linux or Windows), but it doesn't
    surprise me at all the open source slopware let you down. That's what it
    does.



    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    > So I download the new Mandriva 2009, burn it with Brassero under
    > Ubuntu and install it on my test partition on the same machine that
    > Ubuntu and Windows XP is installed on.
    >
    > First observation is that booting the CD gives little or no feedback
    > as to what is going on other than watching the drive light and even
    > that is deceiving because Mandriva seems to load a lot into memory
    > and execute from there compared to Ubuntu which is more CD intensive.
    > Hitting alt-F1 works though, but noobs won't know this.
    >
    > I already have a blank/formatted ext3 and swap partition set up on my
    > primary (C-Drive) so you would think Mandriva would be smart enough
    > to see this and ask to use it.
    >
    > Nope.
    >
    > Mandriva want's to install on my 500g Audio drive which is /dev/sdc
    >
    > Bad.....
    >
    > I go into custom partitioning and fix things.
    >
    > Partitioning this way is as good as Ubuntu and MUCH better than
    > Fedora.
    >
    > Install went smooth, a lot faster than the previous version of
    > Mandriva I tried a couple of weeks ago.
    > It adds all the sources and asks if you want the extra sources added,
    > which I accepted.
    > It did some updates and I noticed the mirrors are very fast and
    > considering this is a new release that was a welcome surprise.
    >
    > Nvidia commercial driver is installed on install automatically, but it
    > still doesn't recognize my dual displays.
    >
    > Ok, so I see the Nvidia-Settings program in the menus and click on it.
    > It claims TwinView isn't enabled, yada, yada, yada but gives no
    > option to turn it on!
    > All kinds of crap about temperature and dvi and other 99 percent
    > useless garbage but no option to set up dual displays.
    >
    > Incredible!
    >
    > So I go hunting and find the Mandriva system settings (root required)
    > and find the setup display or Xserver, I forget what it's called.
    > I go into that and I don't see a "Twinview" option however I see,
    > "Duplicate display on secondary monitor" option.
    >
    > Now, to most people that means the same exact display on both
    > monitors and NOT extending the monitor space.
    > So, seeing as I have no other choice I select it, log out and in
    > again and I have a single display....
    > Yuk.....
    >
    > So back to nvidia-settings I go and NOW I can configure my secondary
    > display.
    > It takes all my settings and I go to save to the /etc/xorg file and of
    > course it fails.
    > But it doesn't fail with a permissions error, it fails with some
    > oddball error that gives no indication what is wrong.
    >
    > Noob is dead here....
    >
    > So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo
    > nvidia-settings from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings
    > and it works...
    >
    > This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    > Linux just as quickly.
    > A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    > place this days.
    >
    > Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things
    > before they release them?
    >
    > This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of
    > thinking that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.
    >
    > Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.
    >
    > I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will
    > leave you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.




  3. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 01:24:00 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > Nice "review", Moshe.
    >
    > I've never tried multiple monitors (on Linux or Windows), but it doesn't
    > surprise me at all the open source slopware let you down. That's what it
    > does.


    Under Windows?
    Plug it in and it works.

    Linux?

    Well you can read it below...

    They can't even get simple conecpts correct like:

    1. Why is nvidia-settings allowed to run as a user program when none of the
    settings can be written to /etc/xorg.conf ?
    Seems easy enough to prompt for the root password.
    Do they even test this stuff?

    2. Why do I have to go to 2 or 3 places just to make something very simple
    work?

    Personally I think the core Linux community really needs to sit down with
    average users and watch them try and make some of this crap work.
    Observe and log their keystrokes and frustration and FIX IT FOR GOODNESS
    SAKES...

    BTW Amarok is sitting at 25 percent of my 6000 file mp3 collection and
    seems frozen as it tries to add songs to the library.

    This is the latest V2.x version with Mandriva BTW.

    They managed to put a new look to it but here we go again with the
    instability.

    Mandriva is turning out to be a real piker.
    More to come!



    >
    >
    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >> So I download the new Mandriva 2009, burn it with Brassero under
    >> Ubuntu and install it on my test partition on the same machine that
    >> Ubuntu and Windows XP is installed on.
    >>
    >> First observation is that booting the CD gives little or no feedback
    >> as to what is going on other than watching the drive light and even
    >> that is deceiving because Mandriva seems to load a lot into memory
    >> and execute from there compared to Ubuntu which is more CD intensive.
    >> Hitting alt-F1 works though, but noobs won't know this.
    >>
    >> I already have a blank/formatted ext3 and swap partition set up on my
    >> primary (C-Drive) so you would think Mandriva would be smart enough
    >> to see this and ask to use it.
    >>
    >> Nope.
    >>
    >> Mandriva want's to install on my 500g Audio drive which is /dev/sdc
    >>
    >> Bad.....
    >>
    >> I go into custom partitioning and fix things.
    >>
    >> Partitioning this way is as good as Ubuntu and MUCH better than
    >> Fedora.
    >>
    >> Install went smooth, a lot faster than the previous version of
    >> Mandriva I tried a couple of weeks ago.
    >> It adds all the sources and asks if you want the extra sources added,
    >> which I accepted.
    >> It did some updates and I noticed the mirrors are very fast and
    >> considering this is a new release that was a welcome surprise.
    >>
    >> Nvidia commercial driver is installed on install automatically, but it
    >> still doesn't recognize my dual displays.
    >>
    >> Ok, so I see the Nvidia-Settings program in the menus and click on it.
    >> It claims TwinView isn't enabled, yada, yada, yada but gives no
    >> option to turn it on!
    >> All kinds of crap about temperature and dvi and other 99 percent
    >> useless garbage but no option to set up dual displays.
    >>
    >> Incredible!
    >>
    >> So I go hunting and find the Mandriva system settings (root required)
    >> and find the setup display or Xserver, I forget what it's called.
    >> I go into that and I don't see a "Twinview" option however I see,
    >> "Duplicate display on secondary monitor" option.
    >>
    >> Now, to most people that means the same exact display on both
    >> monitors and NOT extending the monitor space.
    >> So, seeing as I have no other choice I select it, log out and in
    >> again and I have a single display....
    >> Yuk.....
    >>
    >> So back to nvidia-settings I go and NOW I can configure my secondary
    >> display.
    >> It takes all my settings and I go to save to the /etc/xorg file and of
    >> course it fails.
    >> But it doesn't fail with a permissions error, it fails with some
    >> oddball error that gives no indication what is wrong.
    >>
    >> Noob is dead here....
    >>
    >> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo
    >> nvidia-settings from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings
    >> and it works...
    >>
    >> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >> Linux just as quickly.
    >> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >> place this days.
    >>
    >> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things
    >> before they release them?
    >>
    >> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of
    >> thinking that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.
    >>
    >> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.
    >>
    >> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will
    >> leave you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  4. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]

    > So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    > from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >
    > This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    > Linux just as quickly.
    > A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    > place this days.
    >
    > Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    > they release them?
    >
    > This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    > that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.


    This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.

    > Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.


    This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    Linux.

    > I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    > you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.


    I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  5. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just oneexample.

    Richard Rasker wrote:
    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    > [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >
    >> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    >> from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >>
    >> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >> Linux just as quickly.
    >> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >> place this days.
    >>
    >> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >> they release them?
    >>
    >> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >
    > This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    > failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    > report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    > projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    > hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.
    >


    Could be fixed by simply prepending the menu/shortcut with gksudo:

    gksudo /usr/bin/nvidia-settings

    This had me wondering what was going on for awhile too. It also seems
    that you need to run this to 'activate' extra monitors when not
    activated by the stock install of X. The install process seems to do
    things backwards here. A check for extra monitors/heads should be made
    prior to X installing (and not finding everything).

    >> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >
    > This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    > nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    > Linux.
    >
    >> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    >> you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.

    >
    > I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.
    >
    > Richard Rasker


    --
    Norman
    Registered Linux user #461062

  6. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:20:39 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    > [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >
    >> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    >> from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >>
    >> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >> Linux just as quickly.
    >> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >> place this days.
    >>
    >> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >> they release them?
    >>
    >> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >
    > This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    > failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    > report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    > projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    > hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.
    >
    >> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >
    > This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    > nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    > Linux.
    >
    >> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    >> you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.

    >
    > I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.


    I've also used Mandriva 2008.1, 32bit & 64bit, & the nvidia-settings.
    Can't say I've had any problems though. And why use nvidia-settings with
    sudo from a CLI?


  7. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:20:39 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    > [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >
    >> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    >> from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >>
    >> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >> Linux just as quickly.
    >> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >> place this days.
    >>
    >> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >> they release them?
    >>
    >> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >
    > This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    > failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    > report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    > projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    > hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.


    Wrong again cowboy.

    1. It's the same exact program that Windows users get.
    It's Linux's distribution pacakgers and so called beta testers that are
    completely inept.

    2. So you like getting poor performance from your graphics cards just so
    you can "I use non proprietary software" ?
    Good for you.

    >> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >
    > This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    > nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    > Linux.


    You're not reading bunky...

    Try reading it again, but this time calm down and take off the rose colored
    glasses.


    >> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    >> you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.

    >
    > I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.


    I've had mixed opinions.


    > Richard Rasker



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  8. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 07:20:46 -0400, Norman Peelman wrote:

    > Richard Rasker wrote:
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>
    >> [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >>
    >>> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    >>> from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >>>
    >>> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >>> Linux just as quickly.
    >>> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >>> place this days.
    >>>
    >>> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >>> they release them?
    >>>
    >>> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >>> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >>
    >> This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    >> failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    >> report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    >> projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    >> hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.
    >>

    >
    > Could be fixed by simply prepending the menu/shortcut with gksudo:
    >
    > gksudo /usr/bin/nvidia-settings


    Bingo!!

    We have a winner!!!


    >
    > This had me wondering what was going on for awhile too. It also seems
    > that you need to run this to 'activate' extra monitors when not
    > activated by the stock install of X. The install process seems to do
    > things backwards here. A check for extra monitors/heads should be made
    > prior to X installing (and not finding everything).


    Another winner!!

    You should be on the development side of things....


    >>> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >>
    >> This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    >> nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    >> Linux.
    >>
    >>> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    >>> you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.

    >>
    >> I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.
    >>
    >> Richard Rasker



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  9. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:57:30 +0100, William Poaster wrote:

    > On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:20:39 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>
    >> [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >>
    >>> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    >>> from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >>>
    >>> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >>> Linux just as quickly.
    >>> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >>> place this days.
    >>>
    >>> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >>> they release them?
    >>>
    >>> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >>> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >>
    >> This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    >> failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    >> report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    >> projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    >> hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.
    >>
    >>> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >>
    >> This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    >> nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    >> Linux.
    >>
    >>> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    >>> you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.

    >>
    >> I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.

    >
    > I've also used Mandriva 2008.1, 32bit & 64bit, & the nvidia-settings.
    > Can't say I've had any problems though. And why use nvidia-settings with
    > sudo from a CLI?


    Duhhhhh...


    Once again Poaster shows what a complete moron he is.......

    1. It's listed in the menus.
    2. It gets run as a user.
    3. As a user you can change anything you want but you can't write to the
    /etc/xorg.conf file so next time you log out you are back to square one.

    Read Norman Peelman's reply, which is the simple solution which also proves
    my point that the Linux developers are completely clueless and don't test
    this stuff because had they taken the time to try setting up dual monitors,
    or observing an average person trying to do it, they would see the problem
    and hopefully have the brains to fix it.

    I have my doubts though.

    Willy Poaster proves he is a me too moron once again.......
    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  10. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Richard Rasker writes:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    > [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >
    >> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    >> from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >>
    >> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >> Linux just as quickly.
    >> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >> place this days.
    >>
    >> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >> they release them?
    >>
    >> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >
    > This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    > failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    > report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    > projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    > hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.


    once more you post without having a clue about the subject in hand. The
    issue is not the (excellent) driver, its the integration where for some
    reason the installer does not prepend it with gksudo in the menu selection.

    >> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >
    > This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    > nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    > Linux.


    Wrong. Driver works fine for me in Linux. When I mastered the xorg.conf
    that is. ....
    >
    >> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    >> you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.

    >
    > I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.
    >
    > Richard Rasker


    Sure.

    --
    "If you take both of those factors together then WinXP is a flop, selling
    *less* than Win 98 by a factor of two."
    comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they the lunacy in advocacy

  11. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:12:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Richard Rasker writes:
    >
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>
    >> [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >>
    >>> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo nvidia-settings
    >>> from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and it works...
    >>>
    >>> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >>> Linux just as quickly.
    >>> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >>> place this days.
    >>>
    >>> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >>> they release them?
    >>>
    >>> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >>> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >>
    >> This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    >> failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    >> report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open source
    >> projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix /within 24
    >> hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.

    >
    > once more you post without having a clue about the subject in hand. The
    > issue is not the (excellent) driver, its the integration where for some
    > reason the installer does not prepend it with gksudo in the menu selection.


    Correct!
    And add to that the fact you have to go to two different, and confusing
    places to get it to work.


    >>> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >>
    >> This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than that
    >> nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of crapware for
    >> Linux.

    >
    > Wrong. Driver works fine for me in Linux. When I mastered the xorg.conf
    > that is. ....


    Five simple words......(When I mastered the xorg.conf)

    Days if not weeks googling until the noob finds the right combination for
    HIS particular distribution.

    Things are easy in Linux once you find the magic incantation.
    The problem is finding that incantation is rarely trivial.


    >>> I'll be posting more about the latest slopware Mandriva but I will leave
    >>> you with one thought, it sure does look pretty.

    >>
    >> I always found Mandriva both very easy to install and pleasant to work with.
    >>
    >> Richard Rasker

    >
    > Sure.


    Obviously he has a completely different set of standards.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  12. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Hadron wrote:

    > Richard Rasker writes:
    >
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>
    >> [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >>
    >>> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo
    >>> nvidia-settings from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and
    >>> it works...
    >>>
    >>> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >>> Linux just as quickly.
    >>> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >>> place this days.
    >>>
    >>> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >>> they release them?
    >>>
    >>> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >>> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >>
    >> This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    >> failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    >> report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open
    >> source projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix
    >> /within 24 hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.

    >
    > once more you post without having a clue about the subject in hand. The
    > issue is not the (excellent) driver, its the integration where for some
    > reason the installer does not prepend it with gksudo in the menu
    > selection.


    It's not the driver. It's the graphics setup tool. And oh, Mandriva doesn't
    know of a package by the name gksudo.

    $ gksudo /usr/bin/nvidia-settings
    bash: gksudo: command not found

    # urpmi gksudo
    No package called gksudo

    >>> Windows, with the same exact video card, handles this with ease.

    >>
    >> This problem has nothing to do with either Linux or Windows, other than
    >> that nVidia created a working tool for Windows and a buggy piece of
    >> crapware for Linux.

    >
    > Wrong. Driver works fine for me in Linux. When I mastered the xorg.conf
    > that is. ....


    NVidia's driver is fine. It's nVidia's setup tool not set up properly. If
    started, it should as for root permissions -- and it doesn't.


    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  13. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Norman Peelman wrote:

    > Richard Rasker wrote:
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>
    >> [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >>
    >>> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo
    >>> nvidia-settings from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and
    >>> it works...
    >>>
    >>> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >>> Linux just as quickly.
    >>> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >>> place this days.
    >>>
    >>> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >>> they release them?
    >>>
    >>> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >>> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.

    >>
    >> This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    >> failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    >> report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open
    >> source projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix
    >> /within 24 hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.
    >>

    >
    > Could be fixed by simply prepending the menu/shortcut with gksudo:
    >
    > gksudo /usr/bin/nvidia-settings


    There's no package by the name of gksudo available in Mandriva. Besides,
    when I start nvidia-settings from within a terminal with root rights, I
    can't get access to the settings for a second screen -- something which is
    no problem when nvidia-settings is started as a normal user. But then of
    course I can't save any changed settings to xorg.conf. The tool doesn't
    appear to know when certain permissions are required.

    > This had me wondering what was going on for awhile too. It also seems
    > that you need to run this to 'activate' extra monitors when not
    > activated by the stock install of X. The install process seems to do
    > things backwards here. A check for extra monitors/heads should be made
    > prior to X installing (and not finding everything).


    Is it possible to check for extra monitors/heads on an nVidia graphics card
    before installing the nVidia X drivers? I didn't think so.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  14. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:22:30 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:

    > Norman Peelman wrote:
    >
    >> Richard Rasker wrote:
    >>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>>
    >>> [snip nVidia setup tool isn't usable]
    >>>
    >>>> So, having been down this Yellow Brick Road before, I sudo
    >>>> nvidia-settings from a CLI , and set things up and save the settings and
    >>>> it works...
    >>>>
    >>>> This is a classic example of why people, new users try Linux and dump
    >>>> Linux just as quickly.
    >>>> A noob simply does not stand a chance and multiple monitors are common
    >>>> place this days.
    >>>>
    >>>> Doesn't anyone at these various Linux companies test these things before
    >>>> they release them?
    >>>>
    >>>> This is just so basic and such a prime example of the lack of thinking
    >>>> that the developers and distribution packagers demonstrate.
    >>>
    >>> This is actually closed-source proprietary slopware (the nVidia software)
    >>> failing. I experienced the same thing already a year ago, and sent a bug
    >>> report to nVidia, but nothing's been fixed yet. Compare this to open
    >>> source projects, where I found that bug reports sometimes led to a fix
    >>> /within 24 hours/, and you understand why I prefer OSS.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Could be fixed by simply prepending the menu/shortcut with gksudo:
    >>
    >> gksudo /usr/bin/nvidia-settings

    >
    > There's no package by the name of gksudo available in Mandriva. Besides,
    > when I start nvidia-settings from within a terminal with root rights, I
    > can't get access to the settings for a second screen -- something which is
    > no problem when nvidia-settings is started as a normal user. But then of
    > course I can't save any changed settings to xorg.conf. The tool doesn't
    > appear to know when certain permissions are required.


    Wrong.
    The distribution packager, Mandriva, wasn't smart enough and obviously did
    not test the fact that the program should ask for root password, like for
    example the package manager does.

    As for the second screen problem, if you had read my post you would see
    that I mentioned you FIRST have to go to Configure hardware, then configure
    the X server and enable the "Duplicate Screen On Second Monitor" or
    whatever it's called (It should be called TwinView) and THEN run the
    nvidia-settings program as root and you will see the second monitor.


    >> This had me wondering what was going on for awhile too. It also seems
    >> that you need to run this to 'activate' extra monitors when not
    >> activated by the stock install of X. The install process seems to do
    >> things backwards here. A check for extra monitors/heads should be made
    >> prior to X installing (and not finding everything).

    >
    > Is it possible to check for extra monitors/heads on an nVidia graphics card
    > before installing the nVidia X drivers? I didn't think so.


    See above..

    This is all fact, right out of a fresh Mandriva 2009 install and a total
    clusterfsck for a noob to figure out.

    Hell, even the message that comes up when you try to save the xorg.conf
    file doesn't give a clue that it is a permissions problem.

    Typical Linux....



    > Richard Rasker




    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  15. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:22:30 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>
    >> There's no package by the name of gksudo available in Mandriva. Besides,
    >> when I start nvidia-settings from within a terminal with root rights, I
    >> can't get access to the settings for a second screen -- something which
    >> is no problem when nvidia-settings is started as a normal user. But then
    >> of course I can't save any changed settings to xorg.conf. The tool
    >> doesn't appear to know when certain permissions are required.

    >
    > Wrong.
    > The distribution packager, Mandriva, wasn't smart enough and obviously did
    > not test the fact that the program should ask for root password, like for
    > example the package manager does.


    No, you are stubbornly wrong. The Mandriva distribution contains well over
    20,000 packages, and a substantial amount of these require special
    permissions for proper operation. There is no way in the world that
    Mandriva can test the proper operation and permission handling of all these
    thousands over thousands of packages; this is the task of the ones creating
    those packages -- in this case nVidia. The fact that their tool doesn't
    behave properly, is their fault, not Mandriva's.

    > As for the second screen problem, if you had read my post you would see
    > that I mentioned you FIRST have to go to Configure hardware, then
    > configure the X server and enable the "Duplicate Screen On Second Monitor"
    > or whatever it's called (It should be called TwinView) and THEN run the
    > nvidia-settings program as root and you will see the second monitor.


    Yes, I know, I've experienced the same weird behaviour (although I recall
    not having access to the second monitor settings running it as root anyhow,
    but perhaps at least that's fixed now). But where does Linux/Mandriva come
    into this? It's an nVidia tool for an nVidia driver using the wrong
    permissions, and requiring some weird fiddling with settings via Mandriva's
    tool to get things going. I still can't see how Linux or Mandriva can be
    blamed for this.

    >>> This had me wondering what was going on for awhile too. It also seems
    >>> that you need to run this to 'activate' extra monitors when not
    >>> activated by the stock install of X. The install process seems to do
    >>> things backwards here. A check for extra monitors/heads should be made
    >>> prior to X installing (and not finding everything).

    >>
    >> Is it possible to check for extra monitors/heads on an nVidia graphics
    >> card before installing the nVidia X drivers? I didn't think so.

    >
    > See above..
    >
    > This is all fact, right out of a fresh Mandriva 2009 install and a total
    > clusterfsck for a noob to figure out.


    I haven't installed Mandriva 2009 yet, but the nVidia tool appears to be no
    different than in 2008.

    > Hell, even the message that comes up when you try to save the xorg.conf
    > file doesn't give a clue that it is a permissions problem.


    OK, so nVidia's tool tries to save xorg.conf, but doesn't have the right
    permissions, and bombs out -- but without giving the right error message.
    And that is the fault of Linux? Or Mandriva? Come on ...

    > Typical Linux....


    Nope, typical proprietary software.


    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  16. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just oneexample.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:06:01 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:

    > NVidia's driver is fine. It's nVidia's setup tool not set up
    > properly. If started, it should as for root permissions -- and it
    > doesn't.


    Hi Richard,

    Have you tried from a console window running 'ssh root@localhost' and
    then running nvidia-settings from that root shell (you need an sshd
    daemon running of course and X forwarding allowed).

    If that doesn't help then login as root at the display manager login
    window if allowed.



  17. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:49:26 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:22:30 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:
    >>
    >>> Norman Peelman wrote:
    >>>
    >>> There's no package by the name of gksudo available in Mandriva. Besides,
    >>> when I start nvidia-settings from within a terminal with root rights, I
    >>> can't get access to the settings for a second screen -- something which
    >>> is no problem when nvidia-settings is started as a normal user. But then
    >>> of course I can't save any changed settings to xorg.conf. The tool
    >>> doesn't appear to know when certain permissions are required.

    >>
    >> Wrong.
    >> The distribution packager, Mandriva, wasn't smart enough and obviously did
    >> not test the fact that the program should ask for root password, like for
    >> example the package manager does.

    >
    > No, you are stubbornly wrong. The Mandriva distribution contains well over
    > 20,000 packages, and a substantial amount of these require special
    > permissions for proper operation. There is no way in the world that
    > Mandriva can test the proper operation and permission handling of all these
    > thousands over thousands of packages; this is the task of the ones creating
    > those packages -- in this case nVidia. The fact that their tool doesn't
    > behave properly, is their fault, not Mandriva's.



    I'm not wrong at all.

    Mandriva manages to get all kinds of other programs to ask for root so why
    not this one?

    Also, how can you possibly believe that the nvidia package isn't a
    cornerstone of the entire distribution?
    Any distribution.

    It should be the FIRST thing that Madriva makes sure works, especially
    considering that they install the Nvidia driver right from the start,
    unlike say Ubuntu.

    Laughable...

    >> As for the second screen problem, if you had read my post you would see
    >> that I mentioned you FIRST have to go to Configure hardware, then
    >> configure the X server and enable the "Duplicate Screen On Second Monitor"
    >> or whatever it's called (It should be called TwinView) and THEN run the
    >> nvidia-settings program as root and you will see the second monitor.

    >
    > Yes, I know, I've experienced the same weird behaviour (although I recall
    > not having access to the second monitor settings running it as root anyhow,
    > but perhaps at least that's fixed now). But where does Linux/Mandriva come
    > into this? It's an nVidia tool for an nVidia driver using the wrong
    > permissions, and requiring some weird fiddling with settings via Mandriva's
    > tool to get things going. I still can't see how Linux or Mandriva can be
    > blamed for this.


    Read above.....

    Mandriva by default installs the nvidia proprietary driver.
    They should at least make sure the user can configure it.

    It's lack of testing, pure and simple.

    You can dance all you want, the blame goes on Mandriva.



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  18. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:53:00 +0000 (UTC), Rob Schwenk wrote:

    > On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:06:01 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> NVidia's driver is fine. It's nVidia's setup tool not set up
    >> properly. If started, it should as for root permissions -- and it
    >> doesn't.

    >
    > Hi Richard,
    >
    > Have you tried from a console window running 'ssh root@localhost' and
    > then running nvidia-settings from that root shell (you need an sshd
    > daemon running of course and X forwarding allowed).
    >
    > If that doesn't help then login as root at the display manager login
    > window if allowed.


    Open a terminal.
    Su
    enter password.
    nvidia-settings
    fill in the boxes
    save to xorg.conf
    log out of X and back in again.
    Done...

    You DO have to setup dual monitors in the Mandriva control center FIRST
    though or you won't see the second monitor in nvidia-settings.
    This one asks for root password.
    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  19. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Rob Schwenk writes:

    > On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:06:01 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> NVidia's driver is fine. It's nVidia's setup tool not set up
    >> properly. If started, it should as for root permissions -- and it
    >> doesn't.

    >
    > Hi Richard,
    >
    > Have you tried from a console window running 'ssh root@localhost' and
    > then running nvidia-settings from that root shell (you need an sshd
    > daemon running of course and X forwarding allowed).
    >
    > If that doesn't help then login as root at the display manager login
    > window if allowed.
    >


    Never log into the desktop as root. It is asking for trouble.

    Did you never hear of su/sudo etc?


    --
    "By your and your buddies references, marketshare.hitslink.com, it has
    moved from .43 to .68 over the last year. Increasing by 58% over the last
    year doesn't seem to me like it hasn't changed much in 16 years."
    -- Rick in comp.os.linux.advocacy

  20. Re: Mandriva 2009. Why Linux is failing on the desktop. Just one example.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > Typical Linux....


    But you keep right on tinkering with it, over and over, and bitching about
    it, over and over.

    Get a life, you hapless ****knob.
    --
    Regards,
    [tv]

    ....Do unto others BEFORE they do unto YOU.

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