Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models. - Linux

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Thread: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

  1. Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi

    "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven˘t really
    talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of
    that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don˘t know
    what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux
    and start realizing that it˘s not what they are used to. They don˘t want to
    spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate
    is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks."




    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  2. Re: WINDUMMY PCs likely infected in minutes after a purchase

    Micoshaft asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Moshe Goldfarb
    wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Department of Marketing:

    > h


    Whats the failure rate of WINDUMMY PCs infected with viri within
    minutes of having purchased one?

    And can any businesses afford to dedicate huge numbers of staff
    pandering to WINDUMMY tech support calls after every sale?


  3. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.


    "Moshe Goldfarb." writes:

    > http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >
    > "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven’t really
    > talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    > return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of
    > that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know
    > what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux
    > and start realizing that it’s not what they are used to. They don’t want to
    > spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate
    > is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP
    > netbooks."


    I would expect that to be the case.

    The average "non power user" who buys a netbook probably doesnt even
    know what XP is. They just want what worked for them before.

    A shame really.

    The problem is that the netbooks are now getting more powerful and
    people want their normal apps on them too. Then they find they cant run
    them because it's Linux. This was predictable from day one when Asus
    sipped from Microsoft's soup bowl and decided to make more powerful
    machines with XP on. One doesn't have to be as good a market Analyst as,
    say, Richard Rasker to realise this was bound to happen.



  4. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:06:48 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > "Moshe Goldfarb." writes:
    >
    >> http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >>
    >> "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven˘t really
    >> talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    >> return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of
    >> that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don˘t know
    >> what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux
    >> and start realizing that it˘s not what they are used to. They don˘t want to
    >> spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate
    >> is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP
    >> netbooks."

    >
    > I would expect that to be the case.


    Yes.
    Rick would call it "herd mentality", and he is somewhat correct.

    > The average "non power user" who buys a netbook probably doesnt even
    > know what XP is. They just want what worked for them before.


    They truly don't however the kids getting out of University as well as
    going into University are quite tech savvy so things are changing rapidly.

    As the DOS generation, like me for example,(built our own systems etc) ages
    we are getting replaced by the "Windows point and click" generation (bad
    thing IMHO) however the new tech savvy generation is moving in quickly so
    there is hope.

    > A shame really.


    Yes it is.
    For the record I support Linux on netbook type devices.
    It's a perfect match IMHO.


    > The problem is that the netbooks are now getting more powerful and
    > people want their normal apps on them too. Then they find they cant run
    > them because it's Linux.


    That's exactly what is happening.
    The netbook as a standalone, limited upgradability device is a wonderful
    tool and Linux makes it highly useful with less hardware requirements.

    However, as the line between "real laptop" and netbook becomes closer, what
    you say is exactly what is happening.

    > This was predictable from day one when Asus
    > sipped from Microsoft's soup bowl and decided to make more powerful
    > machines with XP on. One doesn't have to be as good a market Analyst as,
    > say, Richard Rasker to realise this was bound to happen.


    It's just good business sense along with a little bit of common sense.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  5. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    > http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >
    > "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven’t really
    > talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    > return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of
    > that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know
    > what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux
    > and start realizing that it’s not what they are used to. They don’t want to
    > spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate
    > is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks."
    >
    >
    >
    >

    Well the people return the notebooks not due to a defect in the Linux OS
    but because they do not wish to learn something new. Come to think about
    it they most probably bought the notebook blindfolded since they didn't
    bother to ask for the specs beforehand anyway.
    I am not surprised neither for their desire for windows nor by their
    apparently deficit intelligence.

  6. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    > http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >
    > "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven˘t really
    > talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that
    > the return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main
    > cause of that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but
    > they don˘t know what they get until they open the box. They start
    > playing around with Linux and start realizing that it˘s not what they
    > are used to. They don˘t want to spend time to learn it so they bring
    > it back to the store. The return rate is at least four times higher
    > for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks."


    Notice the cola chicken****s are afraid to respond? When Linux netbooks
    sell decently, the "advocates*" are all over it crowing and clucking. When
    the hard truth about public rejection of the crapware is revealed, they run
    and hide.

    Puh-thet-ick...




  7. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    geonik wrote:
    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >> http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >>
    >> "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven't really
    >> talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that
    >> the return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the
    >> main cause of that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399
    >> but they don't know what they get until they open the box. They
    >> start playing around with Linux and start realizing that it's not
    >> what they are used to. They don't want to spend time to learn it so
    >> they bring it back to the store. The return rate is at least four
    >> times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks."

    > Well the people return the notebooks not due to a defect in the Linux
    > OS but because they do not wish to learn something new.


    huh? They learned Windows at some point, and it was new.



    > Come to think
    > about it they most probably bought the notebook blindfolded since
    > they didn't bother to ask for the specs beforehand anyway.
    > I am not surprised neither for their desire for windows nor by their
    > apparently deficit intelligence.


    You're not a bad cola "advocate*" there boy. Blaming the user for Linux
    crapware issues and problems is tactic number one.




  8. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    "Moshe Goldfarb." schreef in bericht
    news:119zgzvw9yo5f.gwie4vfnw6i6$.dlg@40tude.net...
    > http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >
    > "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven˘t really
    > talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    > return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of
    > that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don˘t know
    > what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with
    > Linux
    > and start realizing that it˘s not what they are used to. They don˘t want
    > to
    > spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate
    > is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP
    > netbooks."
    >


    The smart "7" agrees:
    http://cache.gawker.com/assets/image...399323_160.jpg
    "Wow Windows Xp is still in strong demand." ;-)


  9. Re: WINDUMMY PCs likely infected in minutes after a purchase

    "7" schreef in bericht
    news:IIQFk.66834$E41.14345@text.news.virginmedia.c om...
    > Micoshaft asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Moshe Goldfarb
    > wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Department of Marketing:
    >
    >> h

    >
    > Whats the failure rate of WINDUMMY PCs


    Thanks again Joseph Michael, you proved my point!
    <"7", *King* *of* *All* *Retards* , the laughing stock of usenet!>
    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.i...91646c333ddcde
    Signed, 7
    A Lifelong Windows Developer
    His logo:
    http://cache.gawker.com/assets/image...399323_160.jpg
    Pretend Linux "Advocate"
    Obsessive Freeloader
    Failed Promoter Of Proprietary, Patented Schemes
    All Around Fraud And Hypocrite
    Now, run along, Josh!


  10. Re: (US) Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    geonik wrote:
    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    >> http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >>
    >> "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and
    >> haven’t really talked about it much until now. Our internal
    >> research has shown that the return of netbooks is higher
    >> than regular notebooks, but the main cause of that is Linux.
    >> People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know
    >> what they get until they open the box. They start playing
    >> around with Linux and start realizing that it’s not what
    >> they are used to. They don’t want to spend time to learn it
    >> so they bring it back to the store. The return rate is at
    >> least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP
    >> netbooks."

    >
    > Well the people return the notebooks not due to a defect in
    > the Linux OS but because they do not wish to learn something
    > new. Come to think about it they most probably bought the
    > notebook blindfolded since they didn't bother to ask for the
    > specs beforehand anyway. I am not surprised neither for their
    > desire for windows nor by their apparently deficit
    > intelligence.


    Original laptopmag.com article on which the blogger's opinion was
    rendered is:

    http://blog.laptopmag.com/msi-wind-c...ls-coming-soon

    Statement was made by MSI’s Director of U.S. Sales Andy Tung,
    reflective of US sales. Linux has a greater presence and
    familiarity outside the US.

    My daughter loves her ASUS Eee PC 4G mini-laptop with Linux
    preloaded. They did a good job with it, user friendly, easy to
    set up, very easy for a Windows user to learn.

    http://www.tigerdirect.com now has 10 Linux laptops for sale. A
    year ago, it was less than that.

    Linux has a forte with its language interface, covers many
    languages so a user sees the computer interface and helps in
    their native language.

    http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Linux_language_support

    One of the best resources for language support is the L10n
    section of the Mandriva Linux Web site. Mandriva Linux
    Localization Teams includes groups working on the following
    languages. However, there are many Linux localization projects
    independent of any of the major distributions.

    (ISO two-letter language codes) Language name

    (af) Afrikaans, (am) Amharic, (ar) Arabic, (az) Azerbaijani
    (be) Belarussian, (bg) Bulgarian, (bn) Bengali, (br) Breton
    (bs) Bosnian, (ca) Catalan, (cs) Czech, (cy) Cymraeg (Welsh)
    (da) Danish, (de) German, (el) Greek, (eo) Esperanto, (es)
    Spanish, (et) Estonian, (eu) Euskara (Basque), (fa) Farsi
    (Iranian), (fi) Suomi (Finnish), (fr) French, (fur) Furlan, (ga)
    Gaeilge (Irish Gaelic), (gl) Galician, (he) Hebrew, (hi) Hindi,
    (hr) Croatian, (hu) Hungarian, (hy) Armenian, (id) Indonesian,
    (is) Icelandic, (it) Italian, (ja) Japanese, (ka) Georgian, (kn)
    Kannada, (ko) Korean, (ku) Kurdish, (ky) Kyrgyz, (lo) Lao
    (lt) Lithuanian, (ltg) Latgalian, (lv) Latvian, (mk) Macedonian
    (mn) Mongolian, (ms) Malay, (mt) Maltese, (nl) Dutch, (nb)
    Norwegian BokmĂĄl, (nn) Norwegian Nynorsk, (pa_IN) Punjabi (in
    gurmukhi script), (pl) Polish, (pt) Portuguese (Portugal)
    (pt_BR) Brazilian Portuguese, (ro) Romanian, (ru) Russian, (sc)
    Sardinian, (sk) Slovakian, (sl) Slovenian, (sq) Albanian (Shqip),
    (sr) Serbian, (sv) Swedish, (ta) Tamil, (tg) Tajiki, (th) Thai
    (tk) Turkmen, (tl) Filipino (Tagalog), (tr) Turkish, (uk)
    Ukrainian, (ur) Urdu, (uz) Uzbekian, (vi) Vietnamese, (wa)
    Walloon, (zh_CN) Chinese (simplified), (zh_TW) Chinese (traditional)
    --
    HPT
    Quando omni flunkus moritati
    (If all else fails, play dead)
    - "Red" Green

  11. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    >

    http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >
    > "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven’t really
    > talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    > return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of
    > that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t know
    > what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with
    > Linux and start realizing that it’s not what they are used to."


    People who buy a Linux machine (or have the intention) should get some sort
    of concise manual explaining that Linux is /not/ Windows, and offering a
    few tips about the most basic tasks, such as setting up a printer or
    network connection, or finding and installing particular software.
    I've seen people trash Linux simply because they didn't understand that it
    wasn't Windows -- so when they tried installing (Windows) stuff such as
    printer drivers and favourite applications by downloading and clicking
    setup.exe files, and naturally failed, they simply concluded that the OS
    was total crap. One of these people actually managed to fire up Wine -- but
    still failed to realize what he was working with, and gave up after failing
    to install MS Office and other Windows applications.

    This could have been avoided if only they were better informed about Linux.
    Then they either wouldn't have chosen Linux in the first place, or they
    would have understood that they were dealing with something new, requiring
    them to get acquainted with different apps and ways of doing things.

    > "They don’t want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the
    > store. The return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks
    > than Windows XP netbooks."


    This only goes to show that there are lots people blindly making purchases
    worth hundreds of dollars. Then again, it's how things go these days. Once
    I walked into a computer store, and I asked if I could see a particular
    machine (an $1,800 laptop running Vista) working, but no go. "Sorry, but if
    we let you operate the computer, we can't sell it as new any more." Even my
    offer to fire it up with Knoppix, so as to keep the machine's HD in
    pristine condition, was declined. So I was expected to plonk down almost
    $2000 for something I couldn't even see working in advance. Ah well.

    And even if the return rate of Linux machines is four times higher than that
    of Windows machines, I still wonder what the overall return rate is -- if
    it's, say, 1%, it means that 0.8% of returned machines run Linux, and 0.2%
    run XP. But it also means that 99% of buyers is happy with their choice.
    Unfortunately the article doesn't provide so much as a hint on this.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  12. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:58:15 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    >>

    > http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >>
    >> "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven˘t really
    >> talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    >> return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of
    >> that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don˘t know
    >> what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with
    >> Linux and start realizing that it˘s not what they are used to."

    >
    > People who buy a Linux machine (or have the intention) should get some sort
    > of concise manual explaining that Linux is /not/ Windows, and offering a
    > few tips about the most basic tasks, such as setting up a printer or
    > network connection, or finding and installing particular software.


    The box should have a big red sticker on it that says "This is not a
    Windows based system and thus Windows applications and some hardware will
    not be able to be used"

    Because in reality, that is the way average Joe is going to see Linux based
    machines in general.

    It will save everyone a lot of time in the long term.

    > I've seen people trash Linux simply because they didn't understand that it
    > wasn't Windows -- so when they tried installing (Windows) stuff such as
    > printer drivers and favourite applications by downloading and clicking
    > setup.exe files, and naturally failed, they simply concluded that the OS
    > was total crap. One of these people actually managed to fire up Wine -- but
    > still failed to realize what he was working with, and gave up after failing
    > to install MS Office and other Windows applications.


    I've seen this 100 times at least over my 15+ years of working with Linux.
    People want what they know and they want it to be as easy and transparent
    as Windows.

    Dual boot is not an option because it's really just a PITA unless the user
    has moved to Linux 99 percent and maybe has one application she needs to
    run.
    Maintaining one system is difficult enough, doing it with two systems is
    just messy.

    However, the real kicker comes with say wiping a Windows system and
    installing Linux.
    In order to entice users into the massive amount of work needed to do this
    and to ask them to dump their shrinkwrap for Linux programs, Linux has to
    show them that it does things better.
    For most people one look at the programs, one afternoon spent trying to
    make their GPS, cellphone, pda, iPod function EXACTLY or better than it
    does under Windows is more than enough for them to send Linux packing.

    I've seen it many times.

    Being free and having better secuirty just does not seem to be enough to
    move Windows users to Linux.

    And let's not even get into the freedom fighting mantra because you
    something?
    Most people consider the radical Linux / OSS movement to be a couple of
    bricks short of a full load and even if they don't care one way or the
    other, the concept is just not going to make a difference..

    People want to see results.
    They want to use what is *best* for them.

    Firefox is growing in popularity because it is better than IE.
    Plain and simple.

    OpenOffice is tanking because it is NOT better, or even equal to MSOffice.





    > This could have been avoided if only they were better informed about Linux.
    > Then they either wouldn't have chosen Linux in the first place, or they
    > would have understood that they were dealing with something new, requiring
    > them to get acquainted with different apps and ways of doing things.


    See my sticker idea.


    >> "They don˘t want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the
    >> store. The return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks
    >> than Windows XP netbooks."

    >

    snip----->

    > Richard Rasker



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  13. Re: (US) Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 06:02:25 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:

    Scramble and mobilize!
    The mothership has been hit.

    See the discredit routine in action.

    Come watch our little zoo filled with Linux advocates in action!
    The admission is free!


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  14. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:58:15 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:
    >
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>
    >>>

    >>

    http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >>>
    >>> "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven’t really
    >>> talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    >>> return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause
    >>> of that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don’t
    >>> know what they get until they open the box. They start playing around
    >>> with Linux and start realizing that it’s not what they are used to."

    >>
    >> People who buy a Linux machine (or have the intention) should get some
    >> sort of concise manual explaining that Linux is /not/ Windows, and
    >> offering a few tips about the most basic tasks, such as setting up a
    >> printer or network connection, or finding and installing particular
    >> software.

    >
    > The box should have a big red sticker on it that says "This is not a
    > Windows based system and thus Windows applications and some hardware will
    > not be able to be used"


    I guess Linux netbook buyers won't get bitten by hardware problems that
    easily -- the built-in wireless device and webcam are by definition
    supported; for all the rest, there isn't really that much out there that
    can present problems, except perhaps a few dozen types of printers and
    scanners.

    > Because in reality, that is the way average Joe is going to see Linux
    > based machines in general.


    This is indeed a basic problem, which can only be solved by people gradually
    getting used to the idea of different OS'es once again. The reasons why
    this doesn't apply to Apple machines is twofold: not only do Apple
    customers appear to be quite aware of what they're purchasing, but there's
    nothing like a $1,000++ price tag to concentrate the senses and make
    absolutely certain that what you're buying is indeed what you intended to
    buy.

    > It will save everyone a lot of time in the long term.
    >
    >> I've seen people trash Linux simply because they didn't understand that
    >> it wasn't Windows -- so when they tried installing (Windows) stuff such
    >> as printer drivers and favourite applications by downloading and clicking
    >> setup.exe files, and naturally failed, they simply concluded that the OS
    >> was total crap. One of these people actually managed to fire up Wine --
    >> but still failed to realize what he was working with, and gave up after
    >> failing to install MS Office and other Windows applications.

    >
    > I've seen this 100 times at least over my 15+ years of working with Linux.
    > People want what they know and they want it to be as easy and transparent
    > as Windows.


    Windows isn't "easy and transparent" for everyone. I find Windows anything
    but "easy and transparent", and I have a habit of getting into trouble with
    Windows within minutes. It's a horrible mess in many aspects, with
    settings, data and other stuff scattered all over the HD, or locked away in
    some cryptic Registry; migrating user files and settings to another machine
    is a royal pain; and something basic such as setting up networking in XP is
    a bad joke, with utterly moronic wizards asking precisely the wrong
    questions and blabbing about duplicating Internet Explorer settings in the
    end -- something which I have failed to understand up to this very day.

    In my opinion, Linux is far easier and most certainly more transparent. It's
    just not Windows -- so setting up printers doesn't involve explicitly
    installing drivers from CD's or the Internet. Simply plug in the printer,
    and say Yes if you're asked if it should be installed. Installing
    applications is also as easy as it can ever get: select 'em in a list, and
    click Install. The only thing is that you have to /know/ how it's done.

    > Dual boot is not an option because it's really just a PITA unless the user
    > has moved to Linux 99 percent and maybe has one application she needs to
    > run.
    > Maintaining one system is difficult enough, doing it with two systems is
    > just messy.


    I agree. I have a few dual-boot users, but most use Linux exclusively now,
    or at best fire up Windows only for playing games.

    > However, the real kicker comes with say wiping a Windows system and
    > installing Linux.
    > In order to entice users into the massive amount of work needed to do this
    > and to ask them to dump their shrinkwrap for Linux programs, Linux has to
    > show them that it does things better.
    > For most people one look at the programs, one afternoon spent trying to
    > make their GPS, cellphone, pda, iPod function EXACTLY or better than it
    > does under Windows is more than enough for them to send Linux packing.


    Yet these same people are quite used to spending the same amount of time and
    effort at least once a year, i.e. after every Windows reinstall. Bot OK,
    once again, people must be educated that Linux is not Windows.

    > I've seen it many times.
    >
    > Being free and having better secuirty just does not seem to be enough to
    > move Windows users to Linux.
    >
    > And let's not even get into the freedom fighting mantra because you
    > something?
    > Most people consider the radical Linux / OSS movement to be a couple of
    > bricks short of a full load and even if they don't care one way or the
    > other, the concept is just not going to make a difference..
    >
    > People want to see results.
    > They want to use what is *best* for them.


    This is a proven fallacy. They want to use what everyone else uses, or (even
    worse), what appears most familiar to them by dint of extensive marketing.
    This isn't necessary what's best for them.

    > Firefox is growing in popularity because it is better than IE.
    > Plain and simple.
    >
    > OpenOffice is tanking because it is NOT better, or even equal to MSOffice.


    An office suite isn't quite comparable to a Web browser. One big obstacle is
    the fact that especially in business settings, a lot of macros will have to
    be translated; also, MS Office is often tightly integrated within the rest
    of a Windows-based environment. Furthermore, MS Office is heavily marketed.

    But for ordinary users, OpenOffice can do the job just as well as MS Office.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  15. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Richard Rasker belched out
    this bit o' wisdom:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    >> Firefox is growing in popularity because it is better than IE.
    >> Plain and simple.
    >>
    >> OpenOffice is tanking because it is NOT better, or even equal to MSOffice.

    >
    > An office suite isn't quite comparable to a Web browser. One big obstacle is
    > the fact that especially in business settings, a lot of macros will have to
    > be translated; also, MS Office is often tightly integrated within the rest
    > of a Windows-based environment. Furthermore, MS Office is heavily marketed.
    >
    > But for ordinary users, OpenOffice can do the job just as well as MS Office.


    Indeed. And Moshe is, as usual confused. He's thinking of revenue
    numbers. As if they apply to a free product.

    Looking more closely, one can hardly say that OpenOffice is "tanking".

    http://www.solidoffice.com/archives/654

    If you measure marketshare as the number of computers with the
    software installed, as a percentage of all computers, then Microsoft
    has far less than 95% and OOo has a good slice: Microsoft claims to
    have about 400 million MSO users, and some estimates place OOo users
    at 100 million. With these simple numbers, MS has 80% marketshare and
    OpenOffice has 20% (obviously excluding other players and overlap;
    these numbers could be refined).

    Of course, this has been brought to Moshe's attention before, but he
    gets more responses if he ignores it and instead promulgates his
    obfuscated view of things, with hot-button words such as "train wreck"
    and "tanking".

    --
    The last thing one knows in constructing a work is what to put first.
    -- Blaise Pascal

  16. Re: (US) Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    High Plains Thumper wrote:


    > http://blog.laptopmag.com/msi-wind-c...ls-coming-soon
    >
    > Statement was made by MSI's Director of U.S. Sales Andy Tung,
    > reflective of US sales.


    Where does it say the return rate is unique to the US market?



    > Linux has a greater presence and familiarity outside the US.


    How do you know?



    > My daughter loves her ASUS Eee PC 4G mini-laptop with Linux
    > preloaded. They did a good job with it, user friendly, easy to
    > set up, very easy for a Windows user to learn.


    Apparently not, given that so many users are returning the systems only
    because of the slopware.


    Just goes to show you can't force Linux turds onto a public demanding
    Windows steak.




  17. Re: (US) Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    > On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 06:02:25 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >
    > Scramble and mobilize!
    > The mothership has been hit.
    >
    > See the discredit routine in action.
    >
    > Come watch our little zoo filled with Linux advocates in action!
    > The admission is free!



    A return rate 4x that of Windows?!?!?!

    That was a great find, Moshe!




  18. Re: (US) Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    DFS wrote:
    > High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >
    >> http://blog.laptopmag.com/msi-wind-c...ls-coming-soon
    >>
    >> Statement was made by MSI's Director of U.S. Sales Andy
    >> Tung, reflective of US sales.

    >
    > Where does it say the return rate is unique to the US market?


    http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?f...l&name=aboutus

    MSI Headquarters
    No. 69, Li-De St., Jung-He City, Taipei Hsien, Taiwan
    Tel: 886-2-3234-5599 (REP)
    Fax: 886-2-3234-5488 (REP)
    http://www.msi.com.tw
    MSI is not a US based company.

    >> Linux has a greater presence and familiarity outside the US.
    >>

    >
    > How do you know?


    Wake up and smell the coffee.

    >> My daughter loves her ASUS Eee PC 4G mini-laptop with Linux
    >> preloaded. They did a good job with it, user friendly, easy
    >> to set up, very easy for a Windows user to learn.

    >
    > Apparently not, given that so many users are returning the
    > systems only because of the slopware.


    ASUS is not MSI.

    > Just goes to show you can't force Linux turds onto a public
    > demanding Windows steak.


    This is an example of:

    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/

    7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics [...]

    32. Promote Windows at every opportunity. Microsoft Windows
    needs a lot of help to be successful in the mind share of its
    targeted user base. Point out to everybody on COLA how wonderful
    it is. Ignore the meaning of the name of the newsgroup and its
    charter.
    --
    HPT
    Quando omni flunkus moritati
    (If all else fails, play dead)
    - "Red" Green

  19. Re: Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:17:24 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:58:15 +0200, Richard Rasker wrote:
    >>
    >>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>

    > http://gizmodo.com/5058953/linux-net...tions-says-msi
    >>>>
    >>>> "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven˘t really
    >>>> talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the
    >>>> return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause
    >>>> of that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don˘t
    >>>> know what they get until they open the box. They start playing around
    >>>> with Linux and start realizing that it˘s not what they are used to."
    >>>
    >>> People who buy a Linux machine (or have the intention) should get some
    >>> sort of concise manual explaining that Linux is /not/ Windows, and
    >>> offering a few tips about the most basic tasks, such as setting up a
    >>> printer or network connection, or finding and installing particular
    >>> software.

    >>
    >> The box should have a big red sticker on it that says "This is not a
    >> Windows based system and thus Windows applications and some hardware will
    >> not be able to be used"

    >
    > I guess Linux netbook buyers won't get bitten by hardware problems that
    > easily -- the built-in wireless device and webcam are by definition
    > supported; for all the rest, there isn't really that much out there that
    > can present problems, except perhaps a few dozen types of printers and
    > scanners.


    As long as you don't mind using wrappers, getting half the
    performance/features from your hardware etc.


    >> Because in reality, that is the way average Joe is going to see Linux
    >> based machines in general.

    >
    > This is indeed a basic problem, which can only be solved by people gradually
    > getting used to the idea of different OS'es once again. The reasons why
    > this doesn't apply to Apple machines is twofold: not only do Apple
    > customers appear to be quite aware of what they're purchasing, but there's
    > nothing like a $1,000++ price tag to concentrate the senses and make
    > absolutely certain that what you're buying is indeed what you intended to
    > buy.


    Apple users look at the PC as a device to make life easier.
    They don't want to be bothered with details and seemingly are willing to
    pay for that privilage.

    If you talk to Apple users, and I do quite often because the majority of
    recording studios, big ones, still use Apple, you will learn quickly that
    they are a different breed and are highly applications based.
    This is one reason why Linux is like a square peg in a round hole for these
    people.
    So is Windows, but to a lesser degree.

    In short, they want to get things done, quickly and easily.
    They are not for the most part programmers and tend to be *artsy* types,
    although this is rapidly changing.

    In my field there is a lot of crossover applications that are Mac and
    Windows compatible.
    I have yet to see a Windows version run better than a Mac version.
    Some are REAL close, most are close enough, some are way behind.

    What I am trying to say is that Mac and to a lesser degree (they have no
    choice) Windows users want it to just *work*...



    >> It will save everyone a lot of time in the long term.
    >>
    >>> I've seen people trash Linux simply because they didn't understand that
    >>> it wasn't Windows -- so when they tried installing (Windows) stuff such
    >>> as printer drivers and favourite applications by downloading and clicking
    >>> setup.exe files, and naturally failed, they simply concluded that the OS
    >>> was total crap. One of these people actually managed to fire up Wine --
    >>> but still failed to realize what he was working with, and gave up after
    >>> failing to install MS Office and other Windows applications.

    >>
    >> I've seen this 100 times at least over my 15+ years of working with Linux.
    >> People want what they know and they want it to be as easy and transparent
    >> as Windows.

    >
    > Windows isn't "easy and transparent" for everyone. I find Windows anything
    > but "easy and transparent", and I have a habit of getting into trouble with
    > Windows within minutes. It's a horrible mess in many aspects, with
    > settings, data and other stuff scattered all over the HD, or locked away in
    > some cryptic Registry; migrating user files and settings to another machine
    > is a royal pain; and something basic such as setting up networking in XP is
    > a bad joke, with utterly moronic wizards asking precisely the wrong
    > questions and blabbing about duplicating Internet Explorer settings in the
    > end -- something which I have failed to understand up to this very day.


    Hahaha!
    I have to agree with you somewhat because I know the reason why.
    Don't take this the wrong way, but you are thinking too much.

    You are doing tasks which are pretty much not typical for average users.
    Networking, home networking, the kind most people use (simple networking)
    is trivial under Windows.
    Adding a printer is the same.
    Sharing a printer is the same.
    Migrating user settings is a nightmare, but so is it for Linux.
    Try it sometime and run into UID/GID, permissions etc.
    It's a nightmare.

    > In my opinion, Linux is far easier and most certainly more transparent. It's
    > just not Windows -- so setting up printers doesn't involve explicitly
    > installing drivers from CD's or the Internet. Simply plug in the printer,
    > and say Yes if you're asked if it should be installed.

    See my recent thread about installing an HP P1006 under Ubuntu....
    Took me about a day.
    Windows?
    About 5 minutes.
    And that printer is SUPPORTED by Linux.

    > Installing
    > applications is also as easy as it can ever get: select 'em in a list, and
    > click Install. The only thing is that you have to /know/ how it's done.


    True.
    But you have to hope the version etc is in the suppository.
    With Ubuntu this is pretty much a given.
    With others, this is not so and then you are in uncharted waters.


    >> Dual boot is not an option because it's really just a PITA unless the user
    >> has moved to Linux 99 percent and maybe has one application she needs to
    >> run.
    >> Maintaining one system is difficult enough, doing it with two systems is
    >> just messy.

    >
    > I agree. I have a few dual-boot users, but most use Linux exclusively now,
    > or at best fire up Windows only for playing games.


    I use Linux for about 90 percent of my work.
    I still need Windows for the other 10 percent and need Windows for 100
    percent of my multimedia work.

    >> However, the real kicker comes with say wiping a Windows system and
    >> installing Linux.
    >> In order to entice users into the massive amount of work needed to do this
    >> and to ask them to dump their shrinkwrap for Linux programs, Linux has to
    >> show them that it does things better.
    >> For most people one look at the programs, one afternoon spent trying to
    >> make their GPS, cellphone, pda, iPod function EXACTLY or better than it
    >> does under Windows is more than enough for them to send Linux packing.

    >
    > Yet these same people are quite used to spending the same amount of time and
    > effort at least once a year, i.e. after every Windows reinstall. Bot OK,
    > once again, people must be educated that Linux is not Windows.


    It's the support that isn't there for Linux.
    Check a recent Tom Tom thread in the Ubuntu group.
    The device runs Linux but yet the included programs to update the device
    etc only run under Windows or Mac.


    >> I've seen it many times.
    >>
    >> Being free and having better secuirty just does not seem to be enough to
    >> move Windows users to Linux.
    >>
    >> And let's not even get into the freedom fighting mantra because you
    >> something?
    >> Most people consider the radical Linux / OSS movement to be a couple of
    >> bricks short of a full load and even if they don't care one way or the
    >> other, the concept is just not going to make a difference..
    >>
    >> People want to see results.
    >> They want to use what is *best* for them.

    >
    > This is a proven fallacy. They want to use what everyone else uses, or (even
    > worse), what appears most familiar to them by dint of extensive marketing.
    > This isn't necessary what's best for them.


    Depends on how you define best.
    First off it's a fact that most people could care less about the freedom
    factor.
    If it's free and as good or better than Windows offerings they will use it.
    If not, they won't.

    >> Firefox is growing in popularity because it is better than IE.
    >> Plain and simple.
    >>
    >> OpenOffice is tanking because it is NOT better, or even equal to MSOffice.

    >
    > An office suite isn't quite comparable to a Web browser. One big obstacle is
    > the fact that especially in business settings, a lot of macros will have to
    > be translated; also, MS Office is often tightly integrated within the rest
    > of a Windows-based environment. Furthermore, MS Office is heavily marketed.


    But that's exactly the point.

    > But for ordinary users, OpenOffice can do the job just as well as MS Office.


    So will Wordpad, for the most part

    > Richard Rasker

    A reasonable debate, and a change from the typical COLA drivel I will say.
    You make some valid points.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

  20. Re: (US) Linux Netbooks have 4 times the return rate of Windows models.

    On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:48:27 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >> On Sun, 05 Oct 2008 06:02:25 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>
    >> Scramble and mobilize!
    >> The mothership has been hit.
    >>
    >> See the discredit routine in action.
    >>
    >> Come watch our little zoo filled with Linux advocates in action!
    >> The admission is free!

    >
    >
    > A return rate 4x that of Windows?!?!?!
    >
    > That was a great find, Moshe!


    Yep...Thanks!

    And guess what?

    It came over one of the same feeds that Schestowitz gets.
    Of course his Spam-O-Matic scripts will trash can it....


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
    Please Visit www.linsux.org

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