nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:

>
> "What Google does not want is Microsoft creating a browser that sucks.
> Actually, Google doesn't mind if Microsoft's browser sucks. What they
> really don't want is Microsoft to make a browser that sucks and
> everyone ends up using it. And, if the IE8 beta shows us anything,
> making a really sucky web browser is Microsoft's true ambition.
>
> "Google's main concern is quite simple: Browsers should render pages
> accurately, and the JavaScript engine in the browser should be fast,
> efficient, and bug free. On both counts, IE8 is an abomination.
> JScript just doesn't behave very well and is buggy. And, IE's page-
> rendering engine simply does not follow the standard. Because of this,
> Google has to keep development on their Google Applications quite
> generic and simply cannot implement the features they want. You'll
> also notice that Microsoft recently has been putting on some very
> compelling web content that is only available if you use Windows and
> IE."
>
>
> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...05_005415.html

Absolutely, nessuno.

As I see it, all this (Chrome) has nothing at all to do with browsers per se.
Rather, it has to do with browsers as a way of delivering web apps.

M.S. could foul that up for Google on I.E., and Google wouldn't be able to do
much about that.
Google needs *one* browser for which Google is in the driving seat, and for
which it can make sure that standards are followed, and implemented
sufficiently and efficiently enough to use Google apps.

Once Chrome is out of beta, Google will simply point to it, and say "If I.E.
doesn't work with Google Apps, just download Chrome"
The code is open, and nobody should have much trouble following suit.

Hence Google probably don't even need to release Chrome for Mac or Linux
(though I'm sure they will) - they just need to have Chrome available for
I.E. users to switch to if MS doesn't toe the line on browser standards.

Neat:-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ bbgruff on Sunday 07 September 2008 21:49 : \____

> nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
>>
>> "What Google does not want is Microsoft creating a browser that sucks.
>> Actually, Google doesn't mind if Microsoft's browser sucks. What they
>> really don't want is Microsoft to make a browser that sucks and
>> everyone ends up using it. And, if the IE8 beta shows us anything,
>> making a really sucky web browser is Microsoft's true ambition.
>>
>> "Google's main concern is quite simple: Browsers should render pages
>> accurately, and the JavaScript engine in the browser should be fast,
>> efficient, and bug free. On both counts, IE8 is an abomination.
>> JScript just doesn't behave very well and is buggy. And, IE's page-
>> rendering engine simply does not follow the standard. Because of this,
>> Google has to keep development on their Google Applications quite
>> generic and simply cannot implement the features they want. You'll
>> also notice that Microsoft recently has been putting on some very
>> compelling web content that is only available if you use Windows and
>> IE."
>>
>>
>> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...05_005415.html
>
> Absolutely, nessuno.
>
> As I see it, all this (Chrome) has nothing at all to do with browsers per se.
> Rather, it has to do with browsers as a way of delivering web apps.
>
> M.S. could foul that up for Google on I.E., and Google wouldn't be able to do
> much about that.
> Google needs *one* browser for which Google is in the driving seat, and for
> which it can make sure that standards are followed, and implemented
> sufficiently and efficiently enough to use Google apps.
>
> Once Chrome is out of beta, Google will simply point to it, and say "If I.E.
> doesn't work with Google Apps, just download Chrome"
> The code is open, and nobody should have much trouble following suit.
>
> Hence Google probably don't even need to release Chrome for Mac or Linux
> (though I'm sure they will) - they just need to have Chrome available for
> I.E. users to switch to if MS doesn't toe the line on browser standards.
>
> Neat:-)

I haven't seen any writers yet hitting the point about OEM ties. Google, unlike
Mozilla, has decent ability to get computer shipped with Chrome preinstalled
(I think Dell UK already does this with FF2). gOS is an example of an O/S
that's shipped to facilitate Web applications.

- --
"There's a lot of Linux out there -- much more than Microsoft generally signals
publicly -- and their customers are using it..." --Paul DeGroot, a Directions
On Microsoft analyst.
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nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
> "What Google does not want is Microsoft creating a browser that sucks.
> Actually, Google doesn't mind if Microsoft's browser sucks. What they
> really don't want is Microsoft to make a browser that sucks and
> everyone ends up using it. And, if the IE8 beta shows us anything,
> making a really sucky web browser is Microsoft's true ambition.
>
> "Google's main concern is quite simple: Browsers should render pages
> accurately, and the JavaScript engine in the browser should be fast,
> efficient, and bug free. On both counts, IE8 is an abomination.
> JScript just doesn't behave very well and is buggy. And, IE's page-
> rendering engine simply does not follow the standard. Because of this,
> Google has to keep development on their Google Applications quite
> generic and simply cannot implement the features they want. You'll
> also notice that Microsoft recently has been putting on some very
> compelling web content that is only available if you use Windows and
> IE."
>

MS Sharepoint is a good example of using the the IE only lever.

>
> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...05_005415.html

The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
not really in conflict with this view. They conjure up fears at
Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.

Chrome is the most interesting news I've heard all year. IE was down
one percentage point last month, even before Chrome came out. It will
be interesting to see what the impact is in the next several months.
I've already heard some people say they love it. Another article I
read said that Chrome was showing up on the charts, and mainly taking
IE users, not Firefox.

In article
<4be88287-3696-409b-a056-b287029f5e0e@a2g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
"nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:

>
> "What Google does not want is Microsoft creating a browser that sucks.
> Actually, Google doesn't mind if Microsoft's browser sucks. What they
> really don't want is Microsoft to make a browser that sucks and
> everyone ends up using it. And, if the IE8 beta shows us anything,
> making a really sucky web browser is Microsoft's true ambition.
>
> "Google's main concern is quite simple: Browsers should render pages
> accurately, and the JavaScript engine in the browser should be fast,
> efficient, and bug free. On both counts, IE8 is an abomination.
> JScript just doesn't behave very well and is buggy. And, IE's page-
> rendering engine simply does not follow the standard. Because of this,
> Google has to keep development on their Google Applications quite
> generic and simply cannot implement the features they want. You'll
> also notice that Microsoft recently has been putting on some very
> compelling web content that is only available if you use Windows and
> IE."
>
>
> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...05_005415.html

What about Firefox? If it follows the standard, then they don't need
Chrome, as Firefox can fulfill the role of being a standard following
alternative to IE8. If it does not follow the standard, then even if IE
did not exist, they would still have keep their apps generic and be
unable to implement the features they want.

--
--Tim Smith

In article
,
"nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:

> The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
> not really in conflict with this view. They conjure up fears at
> Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
> and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.

Interesting spin there: "sabotage their search business". I thought ad
blocking was usually hailed as a great thing. Free, effective ad
blocking is often touted as a big advantage of Firefox. But if
Microsoft blocks ads, then it is suddenly bad.


--
--Tim Smith

nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:

>
>
> The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
> not really in conflict with this view. They conjure up fears at
> Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
> and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.
>
> Chrome is the most interesting news I've heard all year. IE was down
> one percentage point last month, even before Chrome came out. It will
> be interesting to see what the impact is in the next several months.
> I've already heard some people say they love it. Another article I
> read said that Chrome was showing up on the charts, and mainly taking
> IE users, not Firefox.

Yes, I saw that too (taking I.E. Share rather than FF) and I'm absolutely
baffled! Can you offer any reasons for it?
I expected it to be FF that would suffer, based on the thought that those that
are savvy enough to change from I.E. have already done so. Why would more
start to abandon I.E. at the moment?

Tim Smith wrote:

> What about Firefox? Â*If it follows the standard, then they don't need
> Chrome, as Firefox can fulfill the role of being a standard following
> alternative to IE8. Â*If it does not follow the standard, then even if IE
> did not exist, they would still have keep their apps generic and be
> unable to implement the features they want.

It's a good question, Tim.

I saw this as Google wanting (needing) to be in the driving seat for the
development of a browser that was fast/efficient for web apps. Since it's
OSS there's no reason wht FF (or anything else) can't duplicate any
facilities that Chrome offers, at least to the extent of running Google web
apps?
Once Google has Chome going though, they won't need to wait for community
effort to solve any problems that affect Google - they will just go ahead
with their own developers, won't they?

To me, it's all starting to make a lot of sense.

On Sep 7, 4:06*pm, Tim Smith wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
> *"ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:
> > The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
> > not really in conflict with this view. *They conjure up fears at
> > Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
> > and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.
>
> Interesting spin there: "sabotage their search business". *I thought ad
> blocking was usually hailed as a great thing. *Free, effective ad
> blocking is often touted as a big advantage of Firefox. *But if
> Microsoft blocks ads, then it is suddenly bad.
>
> --
> --Tim Smith

OK, *you* paraphrase what the second half of Cringely's article was
trying to say.

In article
,
"nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:
> On Sep 7, 4:06*pm, Tim Smith wrote:
> > In article
> > ,
> >
> > *"ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:
> > > The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
> > > not really in conflict with this view. *They conjure up fears at
> > > Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
> > > and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.
> >
> > Interesting spin there: "sabotage their search business". *I thought ad
> > blocking was usually hailed as a great thing. *Free, effective ad
> > blocking is often touted as a big advantage of Firefox. *But if
> > Microsoft blocks ads, then it is suddenly bad.
> >
> > --
> > --Tim Smith
>
> OK, *you* paraphrase what the second half of Cringely's article was
> trying to say.

OK: Google is afraid that Microsoft might add ad blocking to IE. This
is a popular feature available for other browsers, and so having it by
default in the #1 browser could harm Google's business.


--
--Tim Smith

Tim Smith writes:

> In article
> ,
> "nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:
>> On Sep 7, 4:06Â*pm, Tim Smith wrote:
>> > In article
>> > ,
>> >
>> > Â*"ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:
>> > > The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
>> > > not really in conflict with this view. Â*They conjure up fears at
>> > > Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
>> > > and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.
>> >
>> > Interesting spin there: "sabotage their search business". Â*I thought ad
>> > blocking was usually hailed as a great thing. Â*Free, effective ad
>> > blocking is often touted as a big advantage of Firefox. Â*But if
>> > Microsoft blocks ads, then it is suddenly bad.
>> >
>> > --
>> > --Tim Smith
>>
>> OK, *you* paraphrase what the second half of Cringely's article was
>> trying to say.
>
> OK: Google is afraid that Microsoft might add ad blocking to IE. This
> is a popular feature available for other browsers, and so having it by
> default in the #1 browser could harm Google's business.

Chrome will not support ad blocking?

Oh dear. Well, thats that then.

--
"Of course, by the time Gnash gets its act together, we'll
probably all have to start all over again with Silverlight
(or Moonlight)."
-- The Ghost In The Machine in comp.os.linux.advocacy

* nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu peremptorily fired off this memo:

>
> "Google's main concern is quite simple: Browsers should render pages
> accurately, and the JavaScript engine in the browser should be fast,
> efficient, and bug free. On both counts, IE8 is an abomination.
> JScript just doesn't behave very well and is buggy. And, IE's page-
> rendering engine simply does not follow the standard. Because of this,
> Google has to keep development on their Google Applications quite
> generic and simply cannot implement the features they want. You'll
> also notice that Microsoft recently has been putting on some very
> compelling web content that is only available if you use Windows and
> IE."
>
>
> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...05_005415.html

Hmmm:

Now back to Bob. Everything Dave says makes sense and I agree with
it, but it doesn't answer my real question, which is not "Why did
Google have to do a browser?" but rather, "What made it impossible
for Google NOT to do a browser?"

The answer to this latter question begins with Dave noticing
Microsoft's recent IE- and Windows-specific web content, which cracks
open the door on Google's greatest fear -- that Microsoft will turn
off ads in IE.

Microsoft can't do that, can they?

Microsoft can do pretty much whatever it wants in this area. There is
plenty of browser competition. They can hobble their own product if
they like, though it would drive users away from IE -- from a product
that brings Microsoft no direct revenue anyway -- so what's the risk?

Microsoft turns off the ads in IE and what happens? Google takes a
huge revenue hit, is knocked down three pegs in the eyes of Wall
Street, while pretty much nothing happens to Microsoft, which would
have just shown the world who is still the sheriff.

And an anonymous Munchkin chimes in:

It's called a removable hard drive, moving 750 gigabytes was never
faster, easier or cheaper.

On another note your captcha works in IE 8 beta 2 but not in Firefox.

anonymous | Sep 08, 2008 | 3:22AM

--
A cloud does not know why it moves in just such a direction and at such
a speed, if feels an impulsion... this is the place to go now. But the
sky knows the reasons and the patterns behind all clouds, and you will
know, too, when you lift yourself high enough to see beyond horizons.
-- Messiah's Handbook : Reminders for the Advanced Soul

* Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

> In article
> ,
> "nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:
>
>> The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
>> not really in conflict with this view. They conjure up fears at
>> Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
>> and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.
>
> Interesting spin there: "sabotage their search business". I thought ad
> blocking was usually hailed as a great thing. Free, effective ad
> blocking is often touted as a big advantage of Firefox. But if
> Microsoft blocks ads, then it is suddenly bad.

Company blocks ads. Bad.

Individual blocks ads. Good.

Got it, McLuhan?

--
The number of computer scientists in a room is inversely proportional
to the number of bugs in their code.

On Sep 8, 3:58 am, Linonut wrote:
> * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
> > In article
> > ,
> > "ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu" wrote:
>
> >> The rest of Cringely's article explains his own theories, which are
> >> not really in conflict with this view. They conjure up fears at
> >> Google of what Microsoft might do to sabotage their search business,
> >> and how Chrome fits into strategiess to prevent that.
>
> > Interesting spin there: "sabotage their search business". I thought ad
> > blocking was usually hailed as a great thing. Free, effective ad
> > blocking is often touted as a big advantage of Firefox. But if
> > Microsoft blocks ads, then it is suddenly bad.
>
> Company blocks ads. Bad.
>
> Individual blocks ads. Good.
>
> Got it, McLuhan?
>
> --
> The number of computer scientists in a room is inversely proportional
> to the number of bugs in their code.

Thanks. That was just about my thought after reading the article a
second time.