FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network - Linux

This is a discussion on FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network - Linux ; In addition to Tuesday's disaster, there have been earlier crashes in the "National Airspace Data Interchange Network": According to an internal FAA document, the system, called the National Airspace Data Interchange Network, crashed on Thursday and caused in 134 departure ...

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Thread: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

  1. FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    In addition to Tuesday's disaster, there have been earlier crashes in
    the "National Airspace Data Interchange Network":


    According to an internal FAA document, the system, called the National
    Airspace Data Interchange Network, crashed on Thursday and caused in
    134 departure delays. The Salt Lake City system also took over but had
    problems with the high queue level, the document said. The system also
    failed in June 2007.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pid=sec-nation

    Network apparently runs on Windows. From "FAA Modernizing National
    Airspace Data Interchange Network with Stratus ftServer systems":


    The FAA is implementing the Stratus servers, which use Intel Xeon 2.8
    MHz large cache MP processors and support the Microsoft Windows
    operating system, at control centers in Atlanta and Salt Lake City.


    http://www.stratustechnologies.com/n.../20050314a.htm

    Research by PJ on groklaw.

    Tuesday's failure originated in Atlanta. I wonder DFS had anything to
    do with it. Maybe it crashed while he was busy posting Linux horror
    stories.

  2. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    ____/ nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu on Wednesday 27 August 2008 20:17 : \____

    > In addition to Tuesday's disaster, there have been earlier crashes in
    > the "National Airspace Data Interchange Network":
    >
    >
    > According to an internal FAA document, the system, called the National
    > Airspace Data Interchange Network, crashed on Thursday and caused in
    > 134 departure delays. The Salt Lake City system also took over but had
    > problems with the high queue level, the document said. The system also
    > failed in June 2007.
    >

    >
    >

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pid=sec-nation
    >
    > Network apparently runs on Windows. From "FAA Modernizing National
    > Airspace Data Interchange Network with Stratus ftServer systems":
    >
    >
    > The FAA is implementing the Stratus servers, which use Intel Xeon 2.8
    > MHz large cache MP processors and support the Microsoft Windows
    > operating system, at control centers in Atlanta and Salt Lake City.
    >

    >
    > http://www.stratustechnologies.com/n.../20050314a.htm
    >
    > Research by PJ on groklaw.


    That was obvious from previous reports about last year's incidence. See reply
    to Richard.

    > Tuesday's failure originated in Atlanta. I wonder DFS had anything to
    > do with it. Maybe it crashed while he was busy posting Linux horror
    > stories.


    Or maybe he spilled mustard on his shirt boxers. He works in a
    garage.

    - --
    "There's a lot of Linux out there -- much more than Microsoft generally signals
    publicly -- and their customers are using it..." --Paul DeGroot, a Directions
    On Microsoft analyst.
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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    mgsAn2PIPnHKJ4RAXkRDwXTpgB72IvXH
    =yIPP
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

  3. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    On Aug 27, 3:17*pm, "ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu"
    wrote:
    > In addition to Tuesday's disaster, there have been earlier crashes in
    > the "National Airspace Data Interchange Network":
    >
    >
    > According to an internal FAA document, the system, called the National
    > Airspace Data Interchange Network, crashed on Thursday and caused in
    > 134 departure delays. The Salt Lake City system also took over but had
    > problems with the high queue level, the document said. The system also
    > failed in June 2007.
    >

    >
    > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...08/08/26/AR200...
    >
    > Network apparently runs on Windows. *From "FAA Modernizing National
    > Airspace Data Interchange Network with Stratus ftServer systems":
    >
    >
    > The FAA is implementing the Stratus servers, which use Intel Xeon 2.8
    > MHz large cache MP processors and support the Microsoft Windows
    > operating system, at control centers in Atlanta and Salt Lake City.
    >

    >
    > http://www.stratustechnologies.com/n.../20050314a.htm
    >



    I wonder whether it is possible to the Freedom of Information Act, in
    order to get the tech skinny.

    As soon as I saw the news about the computer crash, I immediately
    reacted instinctively: "Aha! I bet they were running Windows!".

    Then I said to myself: "Nah! That's impossible, they cannot be that
    irresponsible, after all there are lives at stake".

    -RFH


  4. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network


    :: The FAA said the source of the computer software malfunction was
    :: a "packet switch" that "failed due to a database mismatch."

    This could have happened on ANY SYSTEM.
    Does anybody in COLA actually read the stories?


  5. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:

    > In addition to Tuesday's disaster, there have been earlier crashes in
    > the "National Airspace Data Interchange Network":
    >
    >
    > According to an internal FAA document, the system, called the National
    > Airspace Data Interchange Network, crashed on Thursday and caused in
    > 134 departure delays. The Salt Lake City system also took over but had
    > problems with the high queue level, the document said. The system also
    > failed in June 2007.
    >

    >
    >

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...pid=sec-nation
    >
    > Network apparently runs on Windows. From "FAA Modernizing National
    > Airspace Data Interchange Network with Stratus ftServer systems":
    >
    >
    > The FAA is implementing the Stratus servers, which use Intel Xeon 2.8
    > MHz large cache MP processors and support the Microsoft Windows
    > operating system, at control centers in Atlanta and Salt Lake City.
    >

    >
    > http://www.stratustechnologies.com/n.../20050314a.htm
    >
    > Research by PJ on groklaw.
    >
    > Tuesday's failure originated in Atlanta. I wonder DFS had anything to
    > do with it. Maybe it crashed while he was busy posting Linux horror
    > stories.


    Any day now we'll hear that his Linux tales of woe were routed through that
    particular server, and simply overloaded the OS.

    Richard Rasker
    --
    http://www.linetec.nl

  6. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    In article
    ,
    Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > As soon as I saw the news about the computer crash, I immediately
    > reacted instinctively: "Aha! I bet they were running Windows!".


    Since a large majority of everything outside of internet infrastructure,
    embedded devices, and business enterprise back end systems run Windows,
    that's a pretty safe bet.

    > Then I said to myself: "Nah! That's impossible, they cannot be that
    > irresponsible, after all there are lives at stake".


    Windows is very widely used for things where lives would be at stake if
    it failed. Everywhere from the structural design of new building, to
    controlling industrial robots, to running the navigation systems on
    fishing and cargo vessels, you'll find Windows firmly entrenched.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  7. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    Psyc Geek (TAB) wrote:

    >
    > :: The FAA said the source of the computer software malfunction was
    > :: a "packet switch" that "failed due to a database mismatch."
    >
    > This could have happened on ANY SYSTEM.
    > Does anybody in COLA actually read the stories?


    Funny it happened on a HIGHLY tested and CERTIFIED OS and Hardware mix...
    And whats up with "having to be rebooted" all the time?

    --

    Jerry McBride (jmcbride@mail-on.us)

  8. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    On Aug 27, 8:35*pm, Jerry McBride wrote:
    > Psyc Geek (TAB) wrote:


    > > :: The FAA said the source of the computer software malfunction was
    > > :: a "packet switch" that "failed due to a database mismatch."


    > > This could have happened on ANY SYSTEM.


    > Funny it happened on a HIGHLY tested and CERTIFIED OS and Hardware mix...
    > And whats up with "having to be rebooted" all the time?


    I remember working for a competitor to Stratus, and later being a
    customer. When you
    used the Stratus UNIX system you turned it on and it took an act of
    god to bring it down.
    Many of their systems had 99.99% uptime PER SERVER. In addition,
    their cut-over was
    very fast and reliable, so it pretty easy to get 99.999% availablity -
    which translates to 5 minutes
    of down-time PER YEAR, and that didn't include exclusions for
    "maintenance" or for "backups" or
    for "routine reboots".

    Windows was down for several HOURS for TWO YEARS IN A ROW!! Add to
    that an hour a week for "routine mantenance" and "routine reboots".
    That drops the availability down to about 98%.





    > Jerry McBride (jmcbr...@mail-on.us)



  9. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:35:18 -0400, Jerry McBride wrote:

    > Psyc Geek (TAB) wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>:: The FAA said the source of the computer software malfunction was
    >>:: a "packet switch" that "failed due to a database mismatch."
    >>
    >> This could have happened on ANY SYSTEM.
    >> Does anybody in COLA actually read the stories?

    >
    > Funny it happened on a HIGHLY tested and CERTIFIED OS and Hardware mix...
    > And whats up with "having to be rebooted" all the time?


    FAA systems get re-booted all the time and usually at least once a week.

    It's called an IPL....

    All systems are mirrored and they do a switch over to test.

    One thing the article mentioned that is true is that they have been cutting
    the performance and testing phases of upcoming hardware/software upgrades
    in order to get this stuff out to the field.

    Why?

    Because the current system is at least 10 years, yes 10 years behind what
    is available now.
    And that is a conservative estimate.

    But of course the OSS mouthpiece Groklaw says something so it has to be
    true.
    No wonder the credibility of that site is tanking lately.


    I have to laugh watching you armchair losers trying your best to blame this
    on Microsoft, and it might very well turn out that way but the interesting
    part is how little you really know about this situation yet how rabid and
    zealot like you act.

    It just confirms my suspeician that most of you have no clue how a glass
    house operates and how systems are used in the real world.
    Your P3 running Linux doesn't count, although it might be a step up for the
    FAA in some cases.

    BTW here is a link I just found which confirms what I was telling you.
    BTW they are WAY behind in the upgrade.

    Take note of the machine type and the 370 instruction set, which I
    mentioned in my OP.

    Read it and weep, or run and slink like you usually do.

    http://www.gcn.com/print/vol19_no8/1711-1.html#


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  10. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:01:10 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

    > In article
    > ,
    > Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >> As soon as I saw the news about the computer crash, I immediately
    >> reacted instinctively: "Aha! I bet they were running Windows!".

    >
    > Since a large majority of everything outside of internet infrastructure,
    > embedded devices, and business enterprise back end systems run Windows,
    > that's a pretty safe bet.
    >
    >> Then I said to myself: "Nah! That's impossible, they cannot be that
    >> irresponsible, after all there are lives at stake".

    >
    > Windows is very widely used for things where lives would be at stake if
    > it failed. Everywhere from the structural design of new building, to
    > controlling industrial robots, to running the navigation systems on
    > fishing and cargo vessels, you'll find Windows firmly entrenched.


    The people in this group have no idea what they are talking about.
    I often wonder how many of them actually earn their living in the
    information technology field.

    See my other post to back up my claims...

    BTW I make a game of looking at monitors that may be running in the
    background on various science channel programs and 9 times out of 10 they
    are running either Windows or OSX.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  11. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    On Aug 27, 6:13*pm, Roy Schestowitz
    wrote:

    > > Network apparently runs on Windows. *From "FAA Modernizing National
    > > Airspace Data Interchange Network with Stratus ftServer systems":


    > >
    > > The FAA is implementing the Stratus servers, which use Intel Xeon 2.8
    > > MHz large cache MP processors and support the Microsoft Windows
    > > operating system, at control centers in Atlanta and Salt Lake City.
    > >


    Stratus made some amazing computers, many of which were extremely
    trusted. But in those days, those computers ran UNIX, not Windows.
    After (how many?) crashes since the deployment of the Windows versions
    I wonder if the FAA is thinking about switching back to the UNIX
    versions. We know of the ones in 2008 and June 8 2007, but how many
    other Windows related delays have there been since the system was
    deployed in 2005, and in both of the two public failures, the recovery
    time was several hours.

    > >http://www.stratustechnologies.com/n.../20050314a.htm

    >
    > > Research by PJ on groklaw.

    >
    > That was obvious from previous reports about last year's incidence. See reply
    > to Richard.
    >
    > > Tuesday's failure originated in Atlanta. *I wonder DFS had anything to
    > > do with it. *Maybe it crashed while he was busy posting Linux horror
    > > stories.

    >
    > Or maybe he spilled mustard on his shirt boxers. He works in a
    > garage.
    >
    > - --
    > "There's a lot of Linux out there -- much more than Microsoft generally signals
    > publicly -- and their customers are using it..." --Paul DeGroot, a Directions
    > On Microsoft analyst.
    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
    >
    > iEYEARECAAYFAki10XYACgkQU4xAY3RXLo4+BgCeMLGt2FIukP e3lGpn+zEUZpPA
    > mgsAn2PIPnHKJ4RAXkRDwXTpgB72IvXH
    > =yIPP
    > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



  12. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    "Moshe Goldfarb." writes:

    > On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:01:10 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
    >
    >> In article
    >> ,
    >> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >>> As soon as I saw the news about the computer crash, I immediately
    >>> reacted instinctively: "Aha! I bet they were running Windows!".

    >>
    >> Since a large majority of everything outside of internet infrastructure,
    >> embedded devices, and business enterprise back end systems run Windows,
    >> that's a pretty safe bet.
    >>
    >>> Then I said to myself: "Nah! That's impossible, they cannot be that
    >>> irresponsible, after all there are lives at stake".

    >>
    >> Windows is very widely used for things where lives would be at stake if
    >> it failed. Everywhere from the structural design of new building, to
    >> controlling industrial robots, to running the navigation systems on
    >> fishing and cargo vessels, you'll find Windows firmly entrenched.

    >
    > The people in this group have no idea what they are talking about.
    > I often wonder how many of them actually earn their living in the
    > information technology field.



    Lets see:

    Tattoo Vampire is an estate agent

    High Plains Hypocrite uses windows at work

    chrisv runs an off license or something

    spamowitz lives in a University cell

    etc etc

    Laughable isn't it?

  13. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    * Moshe Goldfarb. peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > BTW here is a link I just found which confirms what I was telling you.
    > BTW they are WAY behind in the upgrade.
    >
    > Take note of the machine type and the 370 instruction set, which I
    > mentioned in my OP.
    >
    > Read it and weep, or run and slink like you usually do.
    >
    > http://www.gcn.com/print/vol19_no8/1711-1.html


    Why would we weep or run/slink about it?

    Besides, that article is 8 years old. What actually was done /today/?

    --
    First as to speech. That privilege rests upon the premise that
    there is no proposition so uniformly acknowledged that it may not be
    lawfully challenged, questioned, and debated....

  14. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    * The Ghost In The Machine peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Basically, nobody could file flight plans, and hundreds of
    > flights had to be cancelled.
    >
    > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,411381,00.html
    >
    > They're still looking for the actual cause, but it looks
    > to be distributed.


    That article mentions NADIN. Here's a description of it:

    http://www.stratustechnologies.com/n.../20050314a.htm

    The FAA is implementing the Stratus servers, which use Intel Xeon 2.8
    MHz large cache MP processors and support the Microsoft Windows
    operating system, at control centers in Atlanta and Salt Lake City.
    Uninterrupted availability of the NADIN 1 is important to all aspects
    of the aviation industry, as well as the nation's economy and,
    increasingly, as a tool to help protect national security. After
    thorough technology and product evaluations, Stratus was chosen as
    best able to provide an open platform with 99.999 percent uptime
    reliability -- which is mandatory for running an application as
    important as NADIN 1 -- together with the required caliber of
    maintenance, logistical support, and long service life.

    So it was Windows. In 2005.

    Never trust a COLA poster (even myself, but especially flatfish) --
    follow it up yourself.

    So how does the Wall Street Journal characterize the Windows-based
    NADIN system?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1219...googlenews_wsj

    FAA Rushes to Fix Aging
    System That Caused Delays

    Aging? It's only three freakin' years old, and it's already decrepit?
    Apparently:

    The Federal Aviation Administration said it is overhauling an
    error-prone computer system that caused hundreds of delayed flights
    Tuesday.

    Error-prone? Is that Stratus's direct fault (bad code), or indirect
    fault (bad choice of problematic platform)?

    However, NADIN is apparently not just Windows:

    ...said the agency would accelerate its upgrade of the fraying Nadin
    system, which dates back to the 1980s. An improved version with
    vastly higher memory will be installed by the end of the year, he
    said, with improvements noticeable by the end of September.

    The article also talks about a Harris telcom system.

    There is obviously a /lot/ going on in the background in this story.

    --
    Ten of the meanest cons in the state pen met in the corner of the yard to
    shoot some craps. The stakes were enormous, the tension palpable.
    When his turn came to shoot, Dutsky nervously plunked down his
    entire wad, shook the dice and rolled. A smile crossed his face as a
    seven showed up, but it quickly changed to horror as third die slipped out
    of his sleeve and fell to the ground with the two others. No one said a
    word. Finally, Killer Lucci picked up the third die, put it in his pocket
    and handed the others to Dutsky.
    "Roll 'em," Lucci said. "Your point is thirteen."

  15. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    * Moshe Goldfarb. peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:01:10 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:
    >
    > BTW I make a game of looking at monitors that may be running in the
    > background on various science channel programs and 9 times out of 10 they
    > are running either Windows or OSX.


    Or Irix.

    I got a good chuckle out of seeing "xterm" in a window caption one time.

    --
    Boss: You forgot to assign the result of your map!
    Hacker: Dang, I'm always forgetting my assignations...
    Boss: And what's that "goto" doing there?!?
    Hacker: Er, I guess my finger slipped when I was typing "getservbyport"...
    Boss: Ah well, accidents will happen. Maybe we should have picked APL.
    -- Larry Wall in <199710311732.JAA19169@wall.org>

  16. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    On Aug 28, 4:47 am, Linonut wrote:
    > * The Ghost In The Machine peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    > > Basically, nobody could file flight plans, and hundreds of
    > > flights had to be cancelled.

    >
    > >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,411381,00.html

    >
    > > They're still looking for the actual cause, but it looks
    > > to be distributed.

    >
    > That article mentions NADIN. Here's a description of it:
    >
    > http://www.stratustechnologies.com/n.../20050314a.htm
    >
    > The FAA is implementing the Stratus servers, which use Intel Xeon 2.8
    > MHz large cache MP processors and support the Microsoft Windows
    > operating system, at control centers in Atlanta and Salt Lake City.
    > Uninterrupted availability of the NADIN 1 is important to all aspects
    > of the aviation industry, as well as the nation's economy and,
    > increasingly, as a tool to help protect national security. After
    > thorough technology and product evaluations, Stratus was chosen as
    > best able to provide an open platform with 99.999 percent uptime
    > reliability -- which is mandatory for running an application as
    > important as NADIN 1 -- together with the required caliber of
    > maintenance, logistical support, and long service life.
    >
    > So it was Windows. In 2005.
    >
    > Never trust a COLA poster (even myself, but especially flatfish) --
    > follow it up yourself.
    >
    > So how does the Wall Street Journal characterize the Windows-based
    > NADIN system?
    >
    > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1219...?mod=googlenew...
    >
    > FAA Rushes to Fix Aging
    > System That Caused Delays
    >
    > Aging? It's only three freakin' years old, and it's already decrepit?
    > Apparently:


    Yeah, and at 99.999% up time, it can only have 1 hour down every 11
    years. So far it's been quite a lot more than that in 3 years.

  17. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:37:25 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * Moshe Goldfarb. peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> BTW here is a link I just found which confirms what I was telling you.
    >> BTW they are WAY behind in the upgrade.
    >>
    >> Take note of the machine type and the 370 instruction set, which I
    >> mentioned in my OP.
    >>
    >> Read it and weep, or run and slink like you usually do.
    >>
    >> http://www.gcn.com/print/vol19_no8/1711-1.html

    >
    > Why would we weep or run/slink about it?
    >
    > Besides, that article is 8 years old. What actually was done /today/?


    As of yesterday, most of it is STILL running in the FAA centers.....
    They are way behind.

    As for your other article, it is flawed but I am not at liberty to speak
    about it. Suffice to say when they are talking "aging systems" while they
    IMPLY recent Windows systems in the article, they are really speaking of
    the entire infrastructure which if you saw it you would probably never fly
    again and not because of Windows.
    Additionally the new platform has been under test for a couple of years and
    IS being deployed slowly, very slowly so the OVERALL SYSTEM, is a complex
    hybrid.
    The IBM 9672 GEN 1 mainframes running 370 code ARE STILL IN OPERATION with
    2 of them at each site. They along with the AIX systems the controllers at
    the centers use are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for tracking the planes.
    IOW the little triangles you see on the screens.

    Like I said, you guys have no clue.....

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  18. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    In article ,
    "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:
    > BTW I make a game of looking at monitors that may be running in the
    > background on various science channel programs and 9 times out of 10 they
    > are running either Windows or OSX.


    Same on History channel. A lot of episodes of "Modern Marvels" go to
    interesting factories or labs, and you see Windows all over those places.

    Some examples of the kind of places I've spotted Windows on History,
    Discovery, National Geographic, etc.:

    * A show about the "Water Cube" building in Beijing (a remarkable
    building). Looks like the engineering work was pretty much all done on
    Windows, including design, structural analysis, analysis of earthquake
    response, analysis of fire spread and evacuation speed, etc. I didn't
    see any signs of non-Windows computers.

    * On "America's Port" (a show that chronicles activity at the Port of
    Los Angeles), the computers handling the navigation and steering
    controls on nearly all the giant cargo ships seems to be Windows.
    Various computers in port operations all seemed to be Windows.

    * The fishing fleets in the Bering Sea and the North Atlantic seem to be
    heavy on Windows in the wheel house of the boats.

    And you know what? Windows works fine for all these things. So would
    DOS. So would OS/2. So would Linux. So would OS X. These various
    industrial and scientific systems aren't like desktops--you don't have
    people installing random third-party software on them. In a controlled
    environment, pretty much any OS is OK. In an uncontrolled environment,
    they all have problems.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  19. Re: FAA Crash Apparently on Windows Network

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:
    >> BTW I make a game of looking at monitors that may be running in the
    >> background on various science channel programs and 9 times out of 10 they
    >> are running either Windows or OSX.

    >
    > Same on History channel. A lot of episodes of "Modern Marvels" go to
    > interesting factories or labs, and you see Windows all over those places.


    Wow! Lots of people use Windows!

    That's some hard news there!

    > And you know what? Windows works fine for all these things. So would
    > DOS. So would OS/2. So would Linux. So would OS X. These various
    > industrial and scientific systems aren't like desktops--you don't have
    > people installing random third-party software on them. In a controlled
    > environment, pretty much any OS is OK. In an uncontrolled environment,
    > they all have problems.


    I heartily agree (except that I find Windows cumbersome).

    --
    Using TSO is like kicking a dead whale down the beach.
    -- S. C. Johnson

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