What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? Theysuck - Linux

This is a discussion on What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? Theysuck - Linux ; Read the below thread from another newsgroup. I would have cross- posted to that group, but I don't want to waste these programmers time with essentially a flame. These are highly skilled software professionals talking, some of whom are nationally ...

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  1. What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? Theysuck

    Read the below thread from another newsgroup. I would have cross-
    posted to that group, but I don't want to waste these programmers time
    with essentially a flame.

    These are highly skilled software professionals talking, some of whom
    are nationally famous and have published books. Guys making close to
    or above $200k USD. The creme de la creme of the programming world.

    And they say Linux programming tools suck. I like this quote: "Until
    the Open Source tools are up to scratch
    you will not penetrate the Linux market". Well said.

    This is not some bozo fanboy on COLA speaking--this is the real world.

    You can choose to ignore their opinion if you want, but like the
    ostrich you're sticking your head in the sand.

    RL


    Ken Foskey
    On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:06:04 -0700, raylopez99 wrote:
    > What is the state of C#? Somebody in a Linux advocacy newsgroup implied
    > it has saturated (leveled off in growth).


    Look to the language itself. Does it answer questions that you want
    answered. The tools available, do they provide good solutions to the
    problems you have. There is no best or worst only good and bad
    applications of a specific language to a problem.

    I am a linux advocate and the C# tools are awful so it is not going to
    penetrate Linux development in a hurry without some serious investment
    of
    some gurus. I would prefer to use another language for programming on
    Linux than C# although I think it is a really good language, c++ done
    right.

    Ken


    Pavel Minaev
    Subject: Re: C#--is it growing? Or saturated? (Charles Petzold does
    C#)
    On Aug 14, 2:07 pm, Ken Foskey wrote:

    > I am a linux advocate and the C# tools are awful


    Compared to what? I'd say that VS2008+ReSharper is a decent match for
    either Eclipse or NetBeans; and most certainly nothing comparable
    exists for C++ (and, ironically enough, VS is still the best C++ IDE
    insofar as code editing and debugging are concerned).

    > so it is not going to penetrate Linux development in a hurry without some serious investment of
    > some gurus. I would prefer to use another language for programming on
    > Linux than C# although I think it is a really good language, c++ done
    > right.


    If you're looking for Linux-enabled "C++ done right", then it's
    probably D (http://www.digitalmars.com/d/). C# is closer to "Java done
    right".

    On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:04:53 -0700, Pavel Minaev wrote:
    > On Aug 14, 2:07 pm, Ken Foskey wrote:
    >> I am a linux advocate and the C# tools are awful


    > Compared to what? I'd say that VS2008+ReSharper is a decent match for
    > either Eclipse or NetBeans; and most certainly nothing comparable exists
    > for C++ (and, ironically enough, VS is still the best C++ IDE insofar as
    > code editing and debugging are concerned).


    To be clear the C# tools on Linux are awful. Taking a snip like that
    out
    make it hard to get context.

    VS is not an option if you are talking to a serious Linux developer
    for
    political reasons. You can so easily build applications in VS that
    will
    not build in Mono so you are better off not using it if Linux is an
    important market for you.

    The compiler is OK and a portion of the .NET is OK because it is the
    same
    code anyway. Monodevelop is the only FOSS IDE choice for C# on Linux,
    I
    can crash it with ease. Until the Open Source tools are up to scratch
    you will not penetrate the Linux market.

    Can I use VS under Linux Wine, anyone tried it? Also does the
    license
    allow me to install on desktop and Laptop concurrently.

    Ken


    On Aug 14, 3:49 pm, Ken Foskey wrote:

    > To be clear the C# tools on Linux are awful. Taking a snip like that out
    > make it hard to get context.


    Oh, I see what you mean now. Yes, I'm keeping an eye on MonoDevelop
    myself, and while progressing quickly, it's still way too unstable to
    be used for anything serious, in my opinion. Every new version I try
    crashes within 15 minutes of me poking around (typically somewhere in
    the Gtk# visual form editor).

    > VS is not an option if you are talking to a serious Linux developer for
    > political reasons. You can so easily build applications in VS that will
    > not build in Mono so you are better off not using it if Linux is an
    > important market for you.


    Actually, I wonder how true is that. You could use VS for IDE, but
    reference Mono/Win32 assemblies for your projects - I think it would
    let you do that. And so long as it works with Mono on Win32, it would
    likely work with Mono on Linux.

    > The compiler is OK and a portion of the .NET is OK because it is the same
    > code anyway.


    Mono JIT and GC are both still lagging quite behind. Though it's still
    fast enough for many purposes.

    > Monodevelop is the only FOSS IDE choice for C# on Linux, I
    > can crash it with ease. Until the Open Source tools are up to scratch
    > you will not penetrate the Linux market.


    Microsoft is obviously hardly interested in penetrating the Linux
    market, so it's all up to Novell.

    > Can I use VS under Linux Wine, anyone tried it?


    Most recent version, no. Last I checked, Wine still had problems
    running .NET in general, never mind VS above version 6.

    > Also does the license allow me to install on desktop and Laptop concurrently.


    It depends on which license. Licensing for MS products tends to be
    pretty complicated.

  2. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Aug 14, 8:42*pm, raylopez99 wrote:
    > Read the below thread from another newsgroup. *I would have cross-
    > posted to that group, but I don't want to waste these programmers time
    > with essentially a flame.


    Before it degenerates into such here, let me clarify.

    > These are highly skilled software professionals talking, some of whom
    > are nationally famous and have published books. *Guys making close to
    > or above $200k USD. *The creme de la creme of the programming world.


    I wonder where this observation comes from, because I'm pretty sure
    that you don't know the size of my paycheck; though you may rest
    assured that it's much more modest than $200k. I would expect that
    most of participants in microsoft.public.dotnet.*languages.csharp are
    also quite a bit closer to earth than you seem to imply by that
    statement; and conversely, such salaries are not unheard of in the
    Linux land either (though similarly rare).

    For the record, I am a .NET lead developer / architect (meaning that I
    do both in roughly equal measures, though more of the latter lately),
    MCSD, and MCPD/Enterprise. I do not belive it makes me special enough
    in any way for my judgement regarding Linux development tools to be
    more valuable than that of many other developers.

    > And they say Linux programming tools suck.


    Noone said that in the thread you reference. It was much more specific
    - ".NET programming tools for Linux suck". Implying MonoDevelop in
    particular.

    > I like this quote: "Until
    > the Open Source tools are up to scratch
    > you will not penetrate the Linux market". *Well said.


    It is well said, but that was directed at Microsoft - and that is
    indeed a correct observation. Microsoft's .NET will not penetrate the
    Linux market to the extent it did Windows, unless development tools
    (open source or otherwise) for .NET on Linux are on par with those on
    Windows. Indeed, tooling is where most of the benefits of .NET (and
    Java) are, and without good tools, it's not all that preferrable to C/C
    ++, which have a long-standing and well-developed ecosystem in the
    Unix-like world; and then, of course, the benefits of a mature
    solution such as Python+PyGtk, over something like Mono+Gtk#, are
    quite unclear.

    > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:04:53 -0700, Pavel Minaev wrote:
    > > so it is not going to penetrate Linux development in a hurry without some serious investment of
    > > some gurus. *I would prefer to use another language for programming on
    > > Linux than C# although I think it is a really good language, c++ done
    > > right.

    >
    > If you're looking for Linux-enabled "C++ done right", then it's
    > probably D (http://www.digitalmars.com/d/). C# is closer to "Java done
    > right".


    In the context of this group, let me clarify my statement. C# is "Java
    done right" as far as the base language is concerned - it certainly
    did fix quite a few language design flaws in Java (though by C# 3.0,
    it did acquire some cruft of its own). The BCL though, while mostly
    portable (Mono being a testament to that), can be quite Windows-
    centric at places. Consider this gem:

    namespace System
    {
    public enum PlatformID
    {
    Win32S,
    Win32Windows,
    Win32NT,
    WinCE,
    Unix,
    Xbox
    }
    }

    Also, WinForms is notoriously nonportable - what else to expect from
    an UI toolkit that has Control.WndProc() method? Besides, most large
    WinForms applications tend to require some P/Invoke magic sooner or
    later, and that ties the app to Win32 API.

    WPF has the potential to be a truly cross-platform API, as it isn't
    Win32-native even in Microsoft's implementation, and encourages heavy
    use of dynamic layouts. But, apparently, Miguel considers it to be too
    large to implement in Mono anytime soon; a pity.

    Overall, C# (or VB.NET - not that much of a difference there with
    VB2008) and the .NET libs are far preferrable to anything else so long
    as the platform is Windows. On Linux, the situation is reversed,
    though Qt is another strong player. For cross-platform development,
    again, Java and Qt are way ahead.

    > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:04:53 -0700, Pavel Minaev wrote:
    > Mono JIT and GC are both still lagging quite behind. Though it's still
    > fast enough for many purposes.


    Mono JIT and GC are indeed lagging quite behind Microsoft's JIT and
    GC. But when comparing Sun's Java JIT/GC and Microsoft's .NET one,
    they are roughly equivalent overall - .NET GC seems to be somewhat
    more efficient in my experience (and the presence of first-class value
    types in the language widens the gap even further), but Java HotSpot
    is more aggressive when it comes to optimizations.

  3. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Aug 14, 11:12*am, Pavel Minaev wrote:
    > On Aug 14, 8:42*pm, raylopez99 wrote:
    >
    > > Read the below thread from another newsgroup. *I would have cross-
    > > posted to that group, but I don't want to waste these programmers time
    > > with essentially a flame.

    >
    > Before it degenerates into such here, let me clarify.
    >
    > > These are highly skilled software professionals talking, some of whom
    > > are nationally famous and have published books. *Guys making close to
    > > or above $200k USD. *The creme de la creme of the programming world.

    >
    > I wonder where this observation comes from, because I'm pretty sure
    > that you don't know the size of my paycheck; though you may rest
    > assured that it's much more modest than $200k. I would expect that
    > most of participants in microsoft.public.dotnet.*languages.csharp are
    > also quite a bit closer to earth than you seem to imply by that
    > statement; and conversely, such salaries are not unheard of in the
    > Linux land either (though similarly rare).



    From a study that appeared in the Wall Street Journal, looking at:
    starting pay, mid-career (10 years+), then, from the mid-career point,
    the bottom 10%, 25%, 75% and top (90%) of earners:

    Computer Engineering $61,400.00 $105,000.00 $66,100.00 $84,100.00
    $135,000.00 $162,000.00
    Computer Science $55,900.00 $95,500.00 $56,000.00 $74,900.00
    $122,000.00 $154,000.00

    So you should be making around $150k. If not, you're being too nice
    with your employer. Maybe you're hoping to develop 'good will' so you
    won't get fired? IMO this passive mode is doomed to failure--you'll
    get fired anyway, regardless, if the employer thinks he can make an
    extra nickel outsourcing you to India. Might as well capitalize now,
    before all the N00b programmers like me and worse come online from
    China and India.


    >
    > For the record, I am a .NET lead developer / architect (meaning that I
    > do both in roughly equal measures, though more of the latter lately),
    > MCSD, and MCPD/Enterprise. I do not belive it makes me special enough
    > in any way for my judgement regarding Linux development tools to be
    > more valuable than that of many other developers.


    Nobody can be an expert in everything. Except on Usenet.

    > > And they say Linux programming tools suck.

    >
    > Noone said that in the thread you reference. It was much more specific
    > - ".NET programming tools for Linux suck". Implying MonoDevelop in
    > particular.


    But let's face it, if Linux tools were good, you'd have heard by now
    and would be using them, no?

    >
    > > I like this quote: "Until
    > > the Open Source tools are up to scratch
    > > you will not penetrate the Linux market". *Well said.

    >
    > It is well said, but that was directed at Microsoft - and that is
    > indeed a correct observation. Microsoft's .NET will not penetrate the
    > Linux market to the extent it did Windows, unless development tools
    > (open source or otherwise) for .NET on Linux are on par with those on
    > Windows.


    Yes, agreed.


    > Indeed, tooling is where most of the benefits of .NET (and
    > Java) are, and without good tools, it's not all that preferrable to C/C
    > ++, which have a long-standing and well-developed ecosystem in the
    > Unix-like world; and then, of course, the benefits of a mature
    > solution such as Python+PyGtk, over something like Mono+Gtk#, are
    > quite unclear.
    >


    Right.

    > In the context of this group, let me clarify my statement. C# is "Java
    > done right" as far as the base language is concerned - it certainly
    > did fix quite a few language design flaws in Java (though by C# 3.0,
    > it did acquire some cruft of its own). The BCL though, while mostly
    > portable (Mono being a testament to that), can be quite Windows-
    > centric at places. Consider this gem:
    >
    > * namespace System
    > * {
    > * * public enum PlatformID
    > * * {
    > * * * Win32S,
    > * * * Win32Windows,
    > * * * Win32NT,
    > * * * WinCE,
    > * * * Unix,
    > * * * Xbox
    > * * }
    > * }


    I'm a bit lost, but don't bother explaining, it's not worth it. Seems
    to me that you can support these platforms, which means C# is
    universal, but let's move on.

    >
    > Also, WinForms is notoriously nonportable - what else to expect from
    > an UI toolkit that has Control.WndProc() method? Besides, most large
    > WinForms applications tend to require some P/Invoke magic sooner or
    > later, and that ties the app to Win32 API.


    Interesting, that WinForms is nonportable. I thought the reason we
    moved to WinForms over Win32 API was portability.

    >
    > WPF has the potential to be a truly cross-platform API, as it isn't
    > Win32-native even in Microsoft's implementation, and encourages heavy
    > use of dynamic layouts. But, apparently, Miguel considers it to be too
    > large to implement in Mono anytime soon; a pity.


    OK, if you say so. Miguel must be the designer of Mono. I saw a bio
    on the designer of Ruby, he invented a form of Smalltalk and it was
    interesting. Ruby on rails...whatever that is, I think it's the
    database programming API for Ruby. Maybe Linq is C#'s Ruby on Rails?
    Or maybe I'm hallucinating.

    >
    > Overall, C# (or VB.NET - not that much of a difference there with
    > VB2008) and the .NET libs are far preferrable to anything else so long
    > as the platform is Windows. On Linux, the situation is reversed,
    > though Qt is another strong player. For cross-platform development,
    > again, Java and Qt are way ahead.


    Qt never heard of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(toolkit)
    that's interesting, it's WinForms for Linux it seems. But it's
    specific to LInux, not Windows or Unix or Mac, unless you think Linux
    is Unix. Moving right along...


    > Mono JIT and GC are indeed lagging quite behind Microsoft's JIT and
    > GC. But when comparing Sun's Java JIT/GC and Microsoft's .NET one,
    > they are roughly equivalent overall - .NET GC seems to be somewhat
    > more efficient in my experience (and the presence of first-class value
    > types in the language widens the gap even further), but Java HotSpot
    > is more aggressive when it comes to optimizations.


    Interesting. It seems that by optimization you must mean compacting
    the code to run faster, while GC efficiency goes to how few memory
    leaks and/or how little memory footprint there is with the garbage
    collection. I myself as a C# N00b am amazed that once you have
    the .NET framework on your hard drive, the executables for a C#.NET
    program are so small--much less than 100kb typically.

    In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    to LInux? Weird.

    RL

  4. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    raylopez99 wrote:
    >
    > In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    > to LInux? Weird.


    You failed to list the disadvantages of windows in your "balanced
    judgement".

  5. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? They suck

    * raylopez99 peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    > to LInux? Weird.


    Freedom. A broad range of freedoms. That is /quite/ sufficient.

    Microsoft tools are unnecessary to do good programming. They're merely
    one vendor's take on how to do things.

    --
    Mr. Jones related an incident from "some time back" when IBM Canada
    Ltd. of Markham, Ont., ordered some parts from a new supplier in Japan. The
    company noted in its order that acceptable quality allowed for 1.5 per cent
    defects (a fairly high standard in North America at the time).
    The Japanese sent the order, with a few parts packaged separately in
    plastic. The accompanying letter said: "We don't know why you want 1.5 per
    cent defective parts, but for your convenience, we've packed them separately."
    -- Excerpted from an article in The (Toronto) Globe and Mail

  6. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Aug 15, 2:25*pm, raylopez99 wrote:
    > From a study that appeared in the Wall Street Journal, looking at:
    > starting pay, mid-career (10 years+), then, from the mid-career point,
    > the bottom 10%, 25%, 75% and top (90%) of earners:
    >
    > Computer Engineering $61,400.00 $105,000.00 * $66,100.00 $84,100.00
    > $135,000.00 $162,000.00
    > Computer Science $55,900.00 $95,500.00 * $56,000.00 $74,900.00
    > $122,000.00 $154,000.00
    >
    > So you should be making around $150k. *If not, you're being too nice
    > with your employer. *Maybe you're hoping to develop 'good will' so you
    > won't get fired? *IMO this passive mode is doomed to failure--you'll
    > get fired anyway, regardless, if the employer thinks he can make an
    > extra nickel outsourcing you to India. *Might as well capitalize now,
    > before all the N00b programmers like me and worse come online from
    > China and India.


    My programming experience (by which I mean real paid work, not just
    playing for my own sake) is 8 years at this point. However, I am only
    23, so I'd hardly consider myself "mid-career".

    On a side note, those numbers you give are for the US. Judging by my
    name alone, you could have guessed that I live and work elsewhere.
    Russia, in my case. The salary range is obviously very different here.

    > But let's face it, if Linux tools were good, you'd have heard by now
    > and would be using them, no?


    I used them in my own time. Eclipse is pretty good (though I still
    prefer VS, but it's mostly subjective). It just so happens that
    software I write for a living mostly targets Windows (because the
    target market is nearly 100% Windows), so it makes sense to just
    use .NET. Qt designers are also very solid. NetBeans is not bad
    either. KDevelop is okay, though its C++ code completion engine was
    pretty wimpy last I saw it.

    > > centric at places. Consider this gem:

    >
    > > * namespace System
    > > * {
    > > * * public enum PlatformID
    > > * * {
    > > * * * Win32S,
    > > * * * Win32Windows,
    > > * * * Win32NT,
    > > * * * WinCE,
    > > * * * Unix,
    > > * * * Xbox
    > > * * }
    > > * }

    >
    > I'm a bit lost, but don't bother explaining, it's not worth it. *Seems
    > to me that you can support these platforms, which means C# is
    > universal, but let's move on.


    My point was that they give you a way to differentiate between various
    flavors of Windows and XBox - all Microsoft's platforms - but then
    lump all the rest together as "Unix" - Linux, BSD, Mac OS X, Solaris,
    etc. Despite the fact that differences between, say, Linux and OS X
    are much more broad than between NT and 9x, as far as developer is
    concerned.

    > Interesting, that WinForms is nonportable. *I thought the reason we
    > moved to WinForms over Win32 API was portability.


    No, it was all about convenience and speed of development. So is WPF -
    its potential platform independence is really just a side effect.

    > OK, if you say so. *Miguel must be the designer of Mono. *I saw a bio
    > on the designer of Ruby, he invented a form of Smalltalk and it was
    > interesting. *Ruby on rails...whatever that is, I think it's the
    > database programming API for Ruby. *Maybe Linq is C#'s Ruby on Rails?


    No, RoR is not specifically about databases. And LINQ has very little
    to do with it, either.

    > Qt never heard of it. *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(toolkit)
    > that's interesting, it's WinForms for Linux it seems. *But it's
    > specific to LInux, not Windows or Unix or Mac, unless you think Linux
    > is Unix. *Moving right along...


    Qt is cross-platform, and portable between Windows, pretty much all
    Unix flavors with X11 as the windowing system (yes, that includes the
    "traditional" Unix - Solaris, for example), and Mac OS X.

    That you have never heard of it only speaks of your little experience
    with C++, and with cross-platform development in general. It's very
    widely known otherwise. To name a few fairly big software titles that
    use Qt to be portable - it's Skype and Opera.

    It's only real disadvantage for commercial development is its price.
    You can get it for free under GPL, but then you have to release your
    software under GPL as well. Trolltech also sells commercial licenses
    to enable use of Qt in proprietary applications, but the license price
    is quite high - above $1000 for a single developer seat.

    > Interesting. *It seems that by optimization you must mean compacting
    > the code to run faster


    No, by optimization I mean compiling IL bytecode to native code
    efficiently, inlining methods, folding constants, removing unnecessary
    checks, etc. "Compacting" is really not an applicable term here in any
    possible sense.

    > while GC efficiency goes to how few memory
    > leaks and/or how little memory footprint there is with the garbage
    > collection.


    No, GC efficiency is about how long each collection cycle takes.
    Both .NET and Java use modern generational compacting (moving) GCs.
    Mono uses Boehm GC, which is conservative (i.e., non-compacting -> non-
    moving), and, as far as I recall, not generational. Explaining the
    difference here is not worth the effort, so I'll just refer you to
    Wikipedia article "Garbage collection".

    > *I myself as a C# N00b am amazed that once you have
    > the .NET framework on your hard drive, the executables for a C#.NET
    > program are so small--much less than 100kb typically.


    Given that .NET 3.5 takes 250Mb, I find it rather unsurprising. A
    good .NET application will mostly reuse the code from the standard
    libraries (which constitute the majority of those 250Mb). Naturally,
    it tends to be slow. A C++ application on top of a powerful framework
    (e.g., Qt/KDE) is similarly small, so long as you don't count the Qt/
    KDE libraries themselves - and they are also shared between all
    programs on the system, so comparing them to .NET Framework is
    reasonable.

    > In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    > to LInux? *Weird.


    Linux has its own advantages, depending on the specific needs. It's
    widely used on servers, both internet and intranet (particularly
    database servers), in devices as an embeddable OS, and increasingly in
    mobiles and handhelds, and ultra-portable PCs. Personally, I wouldn't
    use it on the desktop (though I did do that for ~2 years back in
    2004-2006... moved away from it because some of the stuff that I need
    from my desktop is Windows-specific, though I still keep my Debian
    installation intact and up-to-date), but depending on one's needs, it
    can also be a perfectly viable desktop solution (as Asus EEE has very
    well demonstrated).

  7. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? They suck

    On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:42:33 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * raylopez99 peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    >> to LInux? Weird.

    >
    > Freedom. A broad range of freedoms. That is /quite/ sufficient.


    For some people maybe but for most people it's not even on the radar map.

    However, I have a theory that the USA is ripe for another late 60's/early
    70's type revolt. I think what we are seeing with Obama attracting the
    young vote, pushing their buttons, the off shoring problem, fuel costs, the
    gradual eroding of our manufacturing infrastructure and a total lack of
    confidence in our crooked (mostly) politicians along with the super wealthy
    getting even more wealthy as the middle class disappears, it's time for a
    change.
    (Whew that was a long sentence).

    > Microsoft tools are unnecessary to do good programming. They're merely
    > one vendor's take on how to do things.


    But how popular are they compared to the OSS alternatives?



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  8. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:19:14 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:42:33 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> * raylopez99 peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>> In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    >>> to LInux? Weird.

    >>
    >> Freedom. A broad range of freedoms. That is /quite/ sufficient.

    >
    > For some people maybe but for most people it's not even on the radar
    > map.
    >
    > However, I have a theory that the USA is ripe for another late
    > 60's/early 70's type revolt.


    There were essentally 2 groups from that time trying to improve the world:

    "Geeks" and "hipies/liberals"

    From the geeks we got technology that has indeed improved the world. From
    the hippie/liberals, we have gotten a large part of society that feel
    entitled to (insert what ever here).


    > I think what we are seeing with Obama
    > attracting the young vote, pushing their buttons, the off shoring
    > problem, fuel costs, the gradual eroding of our manufacturing
    > infrastructure and a total lack of confidence in our crooked (mostly)
    > politicians along with the super wealthy getting even more wealthy as
    > the middle class disappears, it's time for a change.
    > (Whew that was a long sentence).


    Off shore problem translation: people in other parts of the world work for
    far less that what Americans will fork for.

    Gradual eroding of our manufacturing infrastructure: translation - people
    in other parts of the world work for far less that what Americans will
    fork for, and Americans won't pay the higher prices for American made
    products that have higher prices due to environmental costs and higher
    wages, among other costs... and have a reputation for lower quality at
    times.

    Total lack of confidence in our crooked (mostly) politicians - the
    "people" won't demand consequences for those "crooked" politicians.

    Super wealthy getting even more wealthy as the middle class disappears -
    I'm not sure how you approach that.
    >
    >> Microsoft tools are unnecessary to do good programming. They're merely
    >> one vendor's take on how to do things.

    >
    > But how popular are they compared to the OSS alternatives?


    That depends on how you define popular. :-)


    --
    Rick

  9. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? They suck

    On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:19:14 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:42:33 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> * raylopez99 peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>> In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    >>> to LInux? Weird.

    >>
    >> Freedom. A broad range of freedoms. That is /quite/ sufficient.

    >
    > For some people maybe but for most people it's not even on the radar
    > map.
    >
    > However, I have a theory that the USA is ripe for another late
    > 60's/early 70's type revolt.


    There were essentally 2 groups from that time trying to improve the world:

    "Geeks" and "hipies/liberals"

    From the geeks we got technology that has indeed improved the world. From
    the hippie/liberals, we have gotten a large part of society that feel
    entitled to (insert what ever here).


    > I think what we are seeing with Obama
    > attracting the young vote, pushing their buttons, the off shoring
    > problem, fuel costs, the gradual eroding of our manufacturing
    > infrastructure and a total lack of confidence in our crooked (mostly)
    > politicians along with the super wealthy getting even more wealthy as
    > the middle class disappears, it's time for a change.
    > (Whew that was a long sentence).


    Off shore problem translation: people in other parts of the world work for
    far less that what Americans will fork for.

    Gradual eroding of our manufacturing infrastructure: translation - people
    in other parts of the world work for far less that what Americans will
    fork for, and Americans won't pay the higher prices for American made
    products that have higher prices due to environmental costs and higher
    wages, among other costs... and have a reputation for lower quality at
    times.

    Total lack of confidence in our crooked (mostly) politicians - the
    "people" won't demand consequences for those "crooked" politicians.

    Super wealthy getting even more wealthy as the middle class disappears -
    I'm not sure how you approach that.
    >
    >> Microsoft tools are unnecessary to do good programming. They're merely
    >> one vendor's take on how to do things.

    >
    > But how popular are they compared to the OSS alternatives?


    That depends on how you define popular. :-)


    --
    Rick



  10. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? They suck

    * Moshe Goldfarb. peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:42:33 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> * raylopez99 peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>> In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    >>> to LInux? Weird.

    >>
    >> Freedom. A broad range of freedoms. That is /quite/ sufficient.

    >
    > For some people maybe but for most people it's not even on the radar map.


    That's a matter of not knowing what's out there, really.

    It is kind of surprising that people don't really know all that much
    about the large software playground that is just out there on the
    internet.

    Perhaps they go for a lot of pretty malware, and figure that all
    software that they download is like that.

    Perhaps it is easier for them to "get a copy" of commercial apps
    from their friends.

    Perhaps they're clouded by name-recognition.

    Perhaps they don't believe good software can be free, or that if it is
    free and good, it is not legitimate.

    I think some people just feel they have to /buy/ software.

    > However, I have a theory that the USA is ripe for another late 60's/early
    > 70's type revolt. I think what we are seeing with Obama attracting the
    > young vote, pushing their buttons, the off shoring problem, fuel costs, the
    > gradual eroding of our manufacturing infrastructure and a total lack of
    > confidence in our crooked (mostly) politicians along with the super wealthy
    > getting even more wealthy as the middle class disappears, it's time for a
    > change.
    > (Whew that was a long sentence).
    >
    >> Microsoft tools are unnecessary to do good programming. They're merely
    >> one vendor's take on how to do things.

    >
    > But how popular are they compared to the OSS alternatives?


    More popular than they used to be, I suppose. I don't know the trends,
    and I don't really care. What Windows work I do is done with VS
    2002 Standard. It's okay. I've tried VS Express 2008, and it's got its
    own new forms of klunkiness.

    What does popularity have to do with it, anyway? Word processors are
    popular, but for common types of documents they're just about the worst
    things you can use for productivity.

    Personally, I greatly enjoy having separate tools for most things.
    These big integrated packages tend to tie your hands.

    --
    Linux: Where Don't We Want To Go Today?
    -- Submitted by Pancrazio De Mauro, paraphrasing some well-known
    sales talk

  11. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:19:14 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:


    > However, I have a theory that the USA is ripe for another late
    > 60's/early 70's type revolt. I think what we are seeing with Obama
    > attracting the young vote, pushing their buttons, the off shoring
    > problem, fuel costs, the gradual eroding of our manufacturing
    > infrastructure and a total lack of confidence in our crooked (mostly)
    > politicians along with the super wealthy getting even more wealthy as
    > the middle class disappears, it's time for a change.
    > (Whew that was a long sentence).


    and how did that work out? baby boomers are the most conventional
    generation in, well, generations.

    anyhow, it's too corrupt. even if you fix the corruption problems the us
    system is stacked for the "red" states which, well not necessarily bad,
    distorts elections unlike any other western country.



    -Thufir

  12. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:35:08 -0500, Rick wrote:

    >> However, I have a theory that the USA is ripe for another late
    >> 60's/early 70's type revolt.

    >
    > There were essentally 2 groups from that time trying to improve the
    > world:
    >
    > "Geeks" and "hipies/liberals"
    >
    > From the geeks we got technology that has indeed improved the world.
    > From the hippie/liberals, we have gotten a large part of society that
    > feel entitled to (insert what ever here).



    The hippies either overdosed or "sold out" (meaning joined society).



    -Thufir

  13. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:35:08 -0500, Rick wrote:

    >> I think what we are seeing with Obama attracting the young vote,
    >> pushing their buttons, the off shoring problem, fuel costs, the gradual
    >> eroding of our manufacturing infrastructure and a total lack of
    >> confidence in our crooked (mostly) politicians along with the super
    >> wealthy getting even more wealthy as the middle class disappears, it's
    >> time for a change. (Whew that was a long sentence).

    >
    > Off shore problem translation: people in other parts of the world work
    > for far less that what Americans will fork for.



    Which hippies should think is great, that poor people are not quite so
    poor. However, the most vocal complainers are ex-hippies.


    -Thufir

  14. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? They suck

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, raylopez99

    wrote
    on Tue, 19 Aug 2008 06:36:36 -0700 (PDT)
    <0ea7f9e6-dd04-42a4-864f-8ea0705ece46@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>:
    > Pavel Minaev wrote:
    >> rience (by which I mean real paid work, not just
    >> playing for my own sake) is 8 years at this point. However, I am only
    >> 23, so I'd hardly consider myself "mid-career".
    >>

    >
    > You programmed since age 15? Didn't you service two years in the
    > Russian military? So how did you manage to code? Did you go to
    > university? Dude you don't seem Russian either--your written english
    > is excellent. I think you're an evil hacker, perhaps you're doing
    > duty for the Kremlin now cyber-bombing Georgia.


    And here I thought 3vi| 1337 h4x0r5 were supposed to speak
    in a corrupted version of |0|c4+[*]....

    And how does one service a year? Best I can do is prop
    up the year on a hoist, remove its drain plug, clean out
    the gunk inside, refill, top off other fluids, and take
    it for a test drive....

    (And yes, if the test drive goes well, it must be a ...

    wait for it...

    GoodYear....)

    >
    >> On a side note, those numbers you give are for the US. Judging by my
    >> name alone, you could have guessed that I live and work elsewhere.
    >> Russia, in my case. The salary range is obviously very different here.

    >
    > And the girls are prettier than American girls, the couple of times I
    > visited Russia. They are prejudiced as hell but pretty.


    What about their mothers?

    >
    >>
    >> > But let's face it, if Linux tools were good, you'd have heard by now
    >> > and would be using them, no?

    >>
    >> I used them in my own time.

    >
    > Concentrate my friend in one thing, otherwise you run the risk of
    > being 'jack of all trades, master of none'. How many times have I
    > seen resumes that list a dozen languages the candidate is familiar
    > with--but with so many languages, how proficient can he be?


    You mean like Windows? It's pretty darned good at
    doing *everything*, according to the Winvocates.

    >
    >
    >> > I'm a bit lost, but don't bother explaining, it's not worth it. ?Seems
    >> > to me that you can support these platforms, which means C# is
    >> > universal, but let's move on.

    >>
    >> My point was that they give you a way to differentiate between various
    >> flavors of Windows and XBox - all Microsoft's platforms - but then
    >> lump all the rest together as "Unix" - Linux, BSD, Mac OS X, Solaris,
    >> etc. Despite the fact that differences between, say, Linux and OS X
    >> are much more broad than between NT and 9x, as far as developer is
    >> concerned.
    >>

    >
    > That's interesting; I've never heard that before--that Unix's flavors
    > are more different than Windows (Linux and OS X of course is obvious).


    Not to mention FreeBSD and System V.

    >
    >
    >> > Interesting, that WinForms is nonportable. ?I thought the reason we
    >> > moved to WinForms over Win32 API was portability.

    >>
    >> No, it was all about convenience and speed of development. So is WPF -
    >> its potential platform independence is really just a side effect.

    >
    > I've read from software professionals that MS Foundation Class is not
    > logical--the few times I used it I don't like it compared to Forms.


    Actually, MFC is perfectly logical, within its limitations.
    It's basically a light covering of Win32.

    > But I just learned from Wiki now that WPF is technically NOT Windows
    > Forms (!). What a mess. I thought for sure it was--does this mean
    > I'm learning an obsolete language now, Win Forms 2.0? Unreal.


    No, UT2004 is a game engine, with its own issues. ;-)

    >
    >
    >> Qt is cross-platform, and portable between Windows, pretty much all
    >> Unix flavors with X11 as the windowing system (yes, that includes the
    >> "traditional" Unix - Solaris, for example), and Mac OS X.
    >>
    >> That you have never heard of it only speaks of your little experience
    >> with C++, and with cross-platform development in general. It's very
    >> widely known otherwise. To name a few fairly big software titles that
    >> use Qt to be portable - it's Skype and Opera.

    >
    > Skype is a good program. Opera I'm using to post now (old version),
    > but the lastest version is broke on my machine so I switched to
    > Safari.
    >
    >>
    >> It's only real disadvantage for commercial development is its price.
    >> You can get it for free under GPL, but then you have to release your
    >> software under GPL as well. Trolltech also sells commercial licenses
    >> to enable use of Qt in proprietary applications, but the license price
    >> is quite high - above $1000 for a single developer seat.

    >
    > That's interesting. Trolltech rings a bell; they invented Ruby I
    > think and sold out recently.


    You're confusing Ruby with Qt, the KDE underlibrary. The
    actual inventor of Ruby is apparently Yukihiro Matsumoto,
    or perhaps David Heinemeier Hansson. I'm not sure if
    the latter did the Rails part, or what, but Google coughed
    up both names.

    [snippage]

    >
    >> , in devices as an embeddable OS, and increasingly in
    >> mobiles and handhelds, and ultra-portable PCs. Personally, I wouldn't
    >> use it on the desktop (though I did do that for ~2 years back in
    >> 2004-2006... moved away from it because some of the stuff that I need
    >> from my desktop is Windows-specific, though I still keep my Debian
    >> installation intact and up-to-date), but depending on one's needs, it
    >> can also be a perfectly viable desktop solution (as Asus EEE has very
    >> well demonstrated).

    >
    > Yes, I agree. Linux is not for the desktop it seems,


    Of course not. Heaven forbid that Vista have any
    competition at all. That would just be so inefficient.

    > and Asus EEE
    > seems a bit expensive.


    It is, especially after the deep discounts OEMs are offering
    for preloaded Windows laptops. Three guesses why.

    >
    > Spasibo Pavel! Catch you later...
    >
    > RL

    [*] actually, I have no idea what this dialect is; it turns
    out lolcat is a far more conventional, if still
    corrupted, variant of English, concerned primarily with
    cats, "cheezburgurs", substituting "ur" for "your",
    and a ceiling cat watching various activities (some of
    them more suitable for mixed company than others), or
    a basement cat whose primary claim to fame apparently
    is that it's a mutated tabby of solid black coloration.

    Note that 4=a, 5=s, 0=o, +=t, 3=e, |=i or l.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Conventional memory has to be one of the most UNconventional
    architectures I've seen in a computer system.
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  15. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    raylopez99 wrote:
    >
    >
    >>> Interesting, that WinForms is nonportable. �I thought the reason we
    >>> moved to WinForms over Win32 API was portability.

    >> No, it was all about convenience and speed of development. So is WPF -
    >> its potential platform independence is really just a side effect.

    >
    > I've read from software professionals that MS Foundation Class is not
    > logical--the few times I used it I don't like it compared to Forms.
    > But I just learned from Wiki now that WPF is technically NOT Windows
    > Forms (!). What a mess. I thought for sure it was--does this mean
    > I'm learning an obsolete language now, Win Forms 2.0? Unreal.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows...ion_Foundation

    A WPF application can be deployed on the desktop or hosted in a web
    browser. This allows for scalable solutions. This makes the Windows API,
    and old COM legacy solution an un-managed API obsolete.

    http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet...onghorn_01.htm

    In Longhorn, Win32 will no longer be the principal API. It will, of
    course, continue to be supported; 20-year-old DOS applications still run
    on the latest version of Windows, and likewise, Win32 applications will
    also continue to work for the foreseeable future. But just as DOS and
    16-bit Windows applications were superseded by Win32 applications, so in
    Longhorn will Win32 become the "old way" of doing things. In Win32's
    place is a new API called WinFX (pronounced "Win Effects"). WinFX is a
    significant milestone in the history of the Windows API, as it puts .NET
    at the center of the platform. While Win32, the main API for previous
    versions of Windows, is a C-style API, WinFX is designed primarily to be
    used by .NET languages. In other words, it is a managed API. Moreover,
    it is a superset of the existing .NET Framework.

    It's on Vista as well WinFX that is.

    >
    > Slow I believe because of garbage collection and the 'interpreted'
    > type run-time engine, which, while not really interpreted, is slower
    > than say C. But I notice it is slow--even for my simple apps the
    > program seems slow.


    If you want speed, then one uses C++.Net that creates native unmanaged
    code; it doesn't need the framework. You can also built solutions with
    C++ .Net that are manage code solutions that work the .Net framework.

    >
    > OK. But the 'genius' of .NET is that you don't have to distribute
    > the .DLLs, as you say, they're in the 250 Mb blob on your hard drive.


    This is the genius of .net.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netf...k/default.aspx
    http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx

    All the languages listed are type safe languages, a key element of .Net.

    http://www.exforsys.com/tutorials/cs...pe-safety.html

    Also the ability to take customized .Net libraries (DLLs) developed by
    the solution developer along with the .Net Framework DLL(s) needed by
    the solution to work and deploy those elements to the machine and not
    have to register the DLL(s), because they are all deployed to the
    directory of the exe is a good thing.

    One can have multiple versions of the same named DLL reside with its
    exe, which eliminates DLL hell, which is a different version of the same
    DLL gets registered that breaks another application that needs a
    different version of the DLL - COM legacy solutions.

    Of course the .Net Framework runtime would be deployed on the machine,
    which is not the entire .Net Framework that you would see in your
    development work on your development machine.

    Win forms are not going anywhere, they just won't be using Win32 API(s)

    >
    >>> In closing, with so many advantages of Windows, why would anybody turn
    >>> to LInux? �Weird.

    >> Linux has its own advantages, depending on the specific needs. It's
    >> widely used on servers, both internet and intranet (particularly
    >> database servers)

    >
    > Server apps are so passe.


    That's a key element in today's development solutions is the ability to
    allow the client side part of the application/business solution to
    communicate with the server side components of the application/business
    solution.

    And you have not had that light bub come on yet about everything is an
    *object*. And one can the object that represents something and send it
    as *Object* whether it be a class being sent to a method or it's being
    sent over the wire using .Net Remothing and cast it back to itself, like
    client program sending an object to its server program and the server
    program sending the object back to the client.

    The ability to use XML serialized objects.
    http://www.developer.com/net/csharp/article.php/3110371

    I was told that .Net can be deployed to run on watches, but I have not
    seen any.


  16. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools?They suck

    On Aug 19, 2:06*pm, The Lone Ranger2 wrote:
    > raylopez99 wrote:



    Well you haven't said anything that shows Win Forms is on the way
    out. It's just that at the back end the library functions it depends
    on will not be old Win32 code but newer Windows Presentation
    Foundation (or WPF) code.

    So Forms API is alive and well.

    RL

  17. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? ?They suck

    raylopez99 wrote:
    > On Aug 23, 12:09*pm, Pavel Minaev wrote:
    >> On Aug 19, 5:36*pm, raylopez99 wrote:
    >>
    >> > You programmed since age 15?

    >>
    >> I developed software in a formal environment (i.e., as a payed job)
    >> since 14. There was a one-year break during the last year of my uni
    >> studies.

    >
    > You went to MGU at age 15? Child prodigy maybe?


    By ECK you're dense, lopez.
    Where on earth did you pull 15 from? Certainly nowhere sensible.
    Must be the orifice from which you speak.
    Fortunately you're not taken much notice of because your voice is muffled
    when you're sitting down.

    --
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk | |
    | Andrew Halliwell BSc | "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't |
    | in | suck is probably the day they start making |
    | Computer science | vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge |

  18. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools??They suck

    On Aug 23, 6:07*pm, Andrew Halliwell wrote:

    What is that burning SMELL? Is that you, Andrew?

    RL

  19. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? ??They suck

    raylopez99 wrote:
    > On Aug 23, 6:07*pm, Andrew Halliwell wrote:
    >
    > What is that burning SMELL? Is that you, Andrew?


    No, I think it must be the gears in your head trying to turn.
    You need oiling.
    --
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk | "I'm alive!!! I can touch! I can taste! |
    | Andrew Halliwell BSc | I can SMELL!!! KRYTEN!!! Unpack Rachel and |
    | in | get out the puncture repair kit!" |
    | Computer Science | Arnold Judas Rimmer- Red Dwarf |

  20. Re: What do expert programmers say about Linux APIs and s/w tools? They suck

    * Pavel Minaev peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > MFC is a good example of how to not write C++ libraries; that's all I
    > can say about it (and yes, I have written production code using it).
    > It's a legacy of early-90s pre-standardization C++ that would do all
    > Windows developers a favor by dying as quickly and as cleanly as
    > possible. For any serious C++/Win32 development, Qt is far more
    > preferrable (or ATL/WTL for the low-level, "almost WinAPI" stuff).


    Indeed.

    > Yes, WinForms are being obsoleted, and WPF has been declared as an
    > "officially preferrable" way of developing GUI applications for Vista
    > and above. It's still far from reality, of course, but we're heading
    > there. There are quite a few WPF bits in VS2008 SP1 now (Entity
    > Framework designer, for example), and the next version of MSN
    > Messenger will be entirely written in WPF... the writing is on the
    > wall.


    --
    "Life, loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it."
    -- Marvin the paranoid android

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