* Moshe Goldfarb. peremptorily fired off this memo:

> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:58:01 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>
>> Here's what's weird. On Direct TV, we have an ETV channel. Fine.
>>
>> But there's also a PBS channel, but all I see on it is "Channel not
>> purchased."
>>
>> Dang.
>
> Is it High Def?
> That might be the reason.

Could be. We ordered "regular def". Smaller dishes on the roof, and we
don't have any high-def equipment anyway.

It would be nice to have, but we're in no hurry. It is only teevee.

Plus, half the time when I'm "watching", I have a laptop in front of me
anyway.

--
miracle: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.
-- Webster's Dictionary

* amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:

> "Linonut" wrote in message
> news:cTYnk.8720$Ep1.1810@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> Indicates to me that the 3rd world is well aware of the cost of doing
>> business with Microsoft.
>>
> It indicates to me that the entire world is doing business with Microsoft to
> an incredible degree.

Sure, if you add in the "piracy"!

> 90%, 95%, 99% are all incredible numbers for a product market share.

True. They're also indicative of a market pathology. How many other
markets besides the consumer desktop market have such a lock? They
broke up AT&T and bitch-slapped IBM for that. Why not Microsoft?

> It hardly matters that one place is a percent or two or three
> different.

True. Except for two things:

1. A small change is a big thing for the Linux "market".

2. A small decrement is a big worry for Microsoft.

You might want to write a letter of comfort and reassurance to Steve
Ballmer!

--
Disobedience: The silver lining to the cloud of servitude.
-- Ambrose Bierce

* Moshe Goldfarb. peremptorily fired off this memo:

> Yes, the amount of business Microsoft does worldwide is staggering compared
> to Linux.

Or any other computer or software vendor.

Although there are some areas where Linux is looking pretty healthy.

Personally, I'm happy to have Linux available, and to be able to play
with it without monetary consideration.

--
You will wish you hadn't.

* The Ghost In The Machine peremptorily fired off this memo:

> The Samsung Instinct points to the future...

I like it, but I'd like something a little more basic.

Say, didn't Gates have this guy killed?:

--
I may have invented it, but Bill made it famous
-- David Bradley, inventor of the Ctrl-Alt-Delete
keystroke, during panel discussion with Bill Gates
at the 20-year celebration for the IBM PC.

> rat wrote:
>>
>> It indicates to me that the entire world is doing business with Microsoft to
>> an incredible degree.

Indeed. An unhealthy degree.

On 2008-08-11, Mark Kent wrote:
> Phil Da Lick! espoused:
>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>> It's a gradual thing and an overstatement, for sure.
>>>
>>> I don't agree that it's an overstatement. I've just received Dabs'
>>> latest catalogue, and guess how many Vista logos there were? None. Not
>>> one. Clearly, nobody is interested.
>>>
>>> How many desktop machines? Well, maybe one. Perhaps.
>>> How many laptops/mobile devices? 30+
>>> How many appliances? Several.
>>>
>>> Of particular note is that latest Archos 605? with integrated GPS.
>>>
>>> Times change, requirements change, people change. Nobody is interested
>>> in accessing things which are locked into one place, which is the
>>> fundamental idea behind the "desktop" computer.
>>
>>
>> Trouble with the IT industry is the buzz is always about the growth.
>> Desktops are kinda plateauing at the moment and all the movers and
>> shakers have got major cloud bonage syndrome. That doesn't make desktops
>> irrelevant.
>
> The existing plant will be around for years, I'm sure, and there will
> always be some people who want a desktop machine, just as some people
> still travel by horse and cart even today.

....except it's nothing like that.

If I don't plan on lugging my main machine around, it makes 0.0
sense for it to be a laptop. There are quieter, cooler and smaller
desktop machines to be had. There are certainly CHEAPER machines
to be had.

Got a $280 laptop for me that can hold 1TB of storage?

Given the BS at the TSA these days, it makes more sense to have
a throwaway system as your "portable" anyways. So the notion of
taking your "desktop replacement laptop" wherever you go is simply
absurd.

It might get hung up going through an airport somewhere.

>
> I've written and presented at massive length on the "3-technology issue"
> - there are many examples:
>
> shellack 78s->vinyl microgroove->CD->DVD->Internet/mp3/ogg
>
> At any one time, there's almost always 3 (or sometimes more) technologies
> in place at the same time. There are the "legacy" formats which are
> mostly being migrated onto something more modern, the "current generation"
> and the "new".
>
> Desktop does not feature in the "new", nor in the "current", it's a

The "desktop" isn't any older than the "laptop".

They both pretty much appeared at the same time. There have ALWAYS
been people interested in mobility and willing to make sacrifices
for it.

[deletia]

--

Metallica is not worth the ruination of someone |||
who has pirated their music / | \


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"Linonut" wrote in message
news:%y1ok.9360$vX2.829@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>* amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> "Linonut" wrote in message
>> news:cTYnk.8720$Ep1.1810@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> Indicates to me that the 3rd world is well aware of the cost of doing
>>> business with Microsoft.
>>>
>> It indicates to me that the entire world is doing business with Microsoft
>> to
>> an incredible degree.
>
> Sure, if you add in the "piracy"!
>
Who's to say that isn't on purpose, too? Software has a value based on the
beneficial use to the user. In the case of Windows, it is an absolute
necessity for selling a "Wintel" PC vs an Apple PC or even a Ubuntu PC.
Anyone who thinks that they can sell one of the latter in opposition to the
former has the opportunity to try their strategy in the market. However
they fail time and again to do that. No one is holding a gun to anyone's
head here, it is just a matter of user expectation and experience, which has
been cultured for over 20 years to reflect the idea of buying a computer
with a Microsoft platform included. How are you ever going to change that?

>> 90%, 95%, 99% are all incredible numbers for a product market share.
>
> True. They're also indicative of a market pathology. How many other
> markets besides the consumer desktop market have such a lock? They
> broke up AT&T and bitch-slapped IBM for that. Why not Microsoft?
>
You say that as if you understood it, but both situations are quite
controversial in terms of business school analysis. And what has really
changed for either? Or for Microsoft for that matter?

>> It hardly matters that one place is a percent or two or three
>> different.
>
> True. Except for two things:
>
> 1. A small change is a big thing for the Linux "market".
>
> 2. A small decrement is a big worry for Microsoft.
>
Market surveys are intended to give a product vendor information regarding a
more successful marketing strategy. The studies themselves are generally
more intricate than the simple results numbers that get published or
referenced regarding some notion that Microsoft is doing great or doing
poorly. The question that you have to ask is "What would Microsoft do
differently based on the study?". If they have 90% or 95%, they are not
likely to do anything differently. They won a long time ago and remain
wildly successful in a huge and growing market. They are far more
interested in the market growth rate than in their share. Any future
increase in their revenues of any size is going to come from that growth
rather than from an futher share capture. If someone donates a shipload of
Linux machines, such as the OLPC, to the aborigines, that really doesn't
affect market growth. The poor have no means to buy anything regardless and
whether they still prefer Windows for the charity they receive or are
willing to accept Linux matters not one whit, either now or next year.

A move in the Linux numbers from some small value to another small value,
regardless of the percentage, is not a signal to the Linux vendors to do
anything differently as well. Perhaps it cheers the minds of the sad-sack
fans of Linux who are backing such a perennial cellar dweller, but that is
about all that it can do.

> You might want to write a letter of comfort and reassurance to Steve
> Ballmer!
>
Do yo seriously think that anything you or I say would have much of an
impact on Ballmer or Gates or anyone else in the senior managment at
Microsoft? Don't kid yourself.

On 2008-08-11, Darth Chaos claimed:

> I'd like to see McCain or Obama or Hillary try to force us Americans
> to pay an annual tax to fund PBS and NPR. It would be declared
> unconstitutional faster than you can say "unconstitutional".

We already do. It comes out of the general fund. The last guy that
tried to end it is no longer House Speaker.

--
Q: How many Windows jokes are there?
A: Millions. They're called "users".
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http://www.pronews.com offers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups

On 2008-08-11, Linonut claimed:

> Here's what's weird. On Direct TV, we have an ETV channel. Fine.
>
> But there's also a PBS channel, but all I see on it is "Channel not
> purchased."
>
> Dang.

Is it served as a local channel? Do you pay for local channels?

--
Welcome to Hell! Here's your copy of Windows.
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In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut

wrote
on Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:50:59 -0400
:
> * The Ghost In The Machine peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> The Samsung Instinct points to the future...
>
> I like it, but I'd like something a little more basic.

I'll admit the Neo FreeRunner shows promise, though it's
not quite ready for general consumption yet.

>
> Say, didn't Gates have this guy killed?:
>

The inventer of Ctrl-Alt-Del? Heh. Can't say I've kept track
of the conspiracies floating about Mr. Gates lately; too many of
them floating around our current President, a former President,
and a dead President....

;-)

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Linux. Because life's too short for a buggy OS.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

* Sinister Midget peremptorily fired off this memo:

> On 2008-08-11, Linonut claimed:
>
>> Here's what's weird. On Direct TV, we have an ETV channel. Fine.
>>
>> But there's also a PBS channel, but all I see on it is "Channel not
>> purchased."
>>
>> Dang.
>
> Is it served as a local channel? Do you pay for local channels?

ETV is local.

I'm we pay for it anyway, though. Just like you still end up paying
with those Buy 1, Get 1 Free deals.

--
Expansion means complexity; and complexity decay.

* amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:

> Who's to say that isn't on purpose, too? Software has a value based on the
> beneficial use to the user. In the case of Windows, it is an absolute
> necessity for selling a "Wintel" PC vs an Apple PC or even a Ubuntu PC.
> Anyone who thinks that they can sell one of the latter in opposition to the
> former has the opportunity to try their strategy in the market. However
> they fail time and again to do that.

I'll just let that little fibber set a spell.

> Do yo seriously think that anything you or I say would have much of an
> impact on Ballmer or Gates or anyone else in the senior managment at
> Microsoft? Don't kid yourself.

STM (Serious Troll Mode) noted.

--
You can't fall off the floor.

On Aug 11, 7:58*am, Peter Köhlmann wrote:
> Mark Kent wrote:
>
> < snip >
>
> > The desktop is dead. *
>
> Bull****
>

The only smart thing you've ever said Petey.

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:17:08 -0700 (PDT), cc wrote:

> On Aug 11, 7:58*am, Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>
>> < snip >
>>
>>> The desktop is dead. *
>>
>> Bull****
>>
>
> The only smart thing you've ever said Petey.

Almost...
He called Mark Kent an idiot, which is true.
No more ignorant poster graces COLA than Mark Kent.

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

On Aug 11, 9:53*am, Mark Kent wrote:
> Phil Da Lick! espoused:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mark Kent wrote:
> >>> It's a gradual thing and an overstatement, for sure.
>
> >> I don't agree that it's an overstatement. *I've just received Dabs'
> >> latest catalogue, and guess how many Vista logos there were? *None. *Not
> >> one. *Clearly, nobody is interested.
>
> >> How many desktop machines? *Well, maybe one. *Perhaps.
> >> How many laptops/mobile devices? *30+
> >> How many appliances? *Several. *
>
> >> Of particular note is that latest Archos 605? with integrated GPS.
>
> >> Times change, requirements change, people change. *Nobody is interested
> >> in accessing things which are locked into one place, which is the
> >> fundamental idea behind the "desktop" computer.
>
> > Trouble with the IT industry is the buzz is always about the growth.
> > Desktops are kinda plateauing at the moment and all the movers and
> > shakers have got major cloud bonage syndrome. That doesn't make desktops
> > irrelevant.
>
> The existing plant will be around for years, I'm sure, and there will
> always be some people who want a desktop machine, just as some people
> still travel by horse and cart even today.

If it will be around for years, then wouldn't calling it dead be an
overstatement? How is a laptop that much different than a desktop
anyway? Most people use it as a desktop. It runs the exact same
software as a desktop. It uses the exact same business model as a
desktop. You point to laptops as the future, but as far as I can tell,
there is no significant difference between a laptop and a desktop as
far as technology goes. Yes, a laptop is portable, but so what? The
difference between laptops and desktops is not analogous to the
difference between mp3 players and cd players. The difference between
laptops and desktops is analogous to the difference between and iPod
and an mp3 player by Motorola.

On 2008-08-11, Linonut claimed:
> * Sinister Midget peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> On 2008-08-11, Linonut claimed:
>>
>>> Here's what's weird. On Direct TV, we have an ETV channel. Fine.
>>>
>>> But there's also a PBS channel, but all I see on it is "Channel not
>>> purchased."
>>>
>>> Dang.
>>
>> Is it served as a local channel? Do you pay for local channels?
>
> ETV is local.

I'm not familiar with ETV. Is it some sort of local access channel?

I believe cable and satellite are required to carry some sort of local
access channel for "publi information", but aren't required to carry
anything that has any commercial advertising. PSB advertises those who
help fund programming, although they call it something else.

As for other local channels, they have to reach some sort of agreement
with them, which is why some/many/all tack on extra charges for those.
That group includes PBS, even though we're already paying for it out of
the general fund, because of the advertising provision.

> I'm we pay for it anyway, though. Just like you still end up paying
> with those Buy 1, Get 1 Free deals.

Anything "free" from commercial companies or the government is only
free when looked at using the definitions and circumstances they
determine apply to their singular claim. Viewed in any other way and
"free" is often higher priced than paying for it directly.

--
Q: How many Windows jokes are there?
A: None. They're all true.
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Phil Da Lick! espoused:
> Mark Kent wrote:
>> Phil Da Lick! espoused:
>>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>>> It's a gradual thing and an overstatement, for sure.
>>>> I don't agree that it's an overstatement. I've just received Dabs'
>>>> latest catalogue, and guess how many Vista logos there were? None. Not
>>>> one. Clearly, nobody is interested.
>>>>
>>>> How many desktop machines? Well, maybe one. Perhaps.
>>>> How many laptops/mobile devices? 30+
>>>> How many appliances? Several.
>>>>
>>>> Of particular note is that latest Archos 605? with integrated GPS.
>>>>
>>>> Times change, requirements change, people change. Nobody is interested
>>>> in accessing things which are locked into one place, which is the
>>>> fundamental idea behind the "desktop" computer.
>>>
>>> Trouble with the IT industry is the buzz is always about the growth.
>>> Desktops are kinda plateauing at the moment and all the movers and
>>> shakers have got major cloud bonage syndrome. That doesn't make desktops
>>> irrelevant.
>>
>> The existing plant will be around for years, I'm sure, and there will
>> always be some people who want a desktop machine, just as some people
>> still travel by horse and cart even today.
>>
>> I've written and presented at massive length on the "3-technology issue"
>> - there are many examples:
>>
>> shellack 78s->vinyl microgroove->CD->DVD->Internet/mp3/ogg
>>
>> At any one time, there's almost always 3 (or sometimes more) technologies
>> in place at the same time. There are the "legacy" formats which are
>> mostly being migrated onto something more modern, the "current generation"
>> and the "new".
>>
>> Desktop does not feature in the "new", nor in the "current", it's a
>> mainly "legacy" approach, but it always takes time to step between them,
>> and there are some who will always hang onto the old stuff.
>>
>> It's essential to recognise the economic impact of the "new" trends,
>> though - currently, there's a lot of hardware around for the last
>> generations of IBM-PC-like machines. However, so few of those are being
>> sold new that the manufacturers will stop making the cards, peripherals
>> and even chipsets in the end. Thus, a slow but significant decline even
>> in the maintainability of older equipment has already begun.
>>
>> Have you tried to repair a 5¼" drive recently? It's practically
>> impossible to get parts. What about one of those ancient 3" drives as
>> used on Amstrad machines? Same again. Even a drive-belt is hard to
>> find.
>>
>> I have an ancient Leak Stereo 20 valve amplifier, which I've used since
>> I was a schoolkid. I rebuilt it about 10 years ago, and even then,
>> getting resistors with a high-enough voltage rating was tough, and
>> getting capacitors of low-value with a high voltage rating was hard.
>>
>> I'm not anti-desktop, I'm just facing the reality.
>
> All very interesting but the desktop is going nowhere. Cloud-boners who
> believe indivisuals or companies will (a) allow other 3rd parties to
> host/control their data,

How many people do you know who use google mail? Hosted Web services?
I think you're failing to face reality here.

> and (b) move completely to a pay-as-you-go
> software model (which is the ultimate destination of the cloud model),
> are living in la-la land.

The Daily Telegraph migrated to Google Office just a couple of weeks
ago. Sorry, but you're living in the past, this is already happening.
Payment is a different issue, of course, but that's subject to the
normal rules of trading, ie., you need to set the price right.

> Truth is client/server has been around for
> decades and we've all still got desktops.

Few of my colleagues have desktops, in fact, I can't recall the last
time anyone was issued with anything other than a laptop or blackberry
or other mobile device. Desktops died out long ago... all the
big-selling stuff is mobility, appliances. Phones, laptops,
ultra-mobile web-tablets, GPS devices, etc. So, I, me personally, am
the only person I know who uses a desktop on a regular basis.

Actually, thinking very carefully about this, of all the scores of
people I work with on a regular basis, I can only think of 1 who has a
desktop machine, and he also has a laptop too.

Have you seen the latest Archos player? It includes, guess what? A
GPS! If I take a look around my house and see what's what in devices,
appliances and so on, I get the following list:

Kids/gaming:
------------
2 x debian gaming desktop
1 x dual PPC powermac (OSX + kubuntu no1 son)
1 x mac-mini (OSX + kubuntu no1 son)

My desktop
----------
1 x ubuntu desktop (my office machine)

Mobility devices, laptops, tablets
-----------------------------------
2 x toshiba Windows laptop (work me & Mrs Mark)
1 x HP laptop (xubuntu - no2 son)
2 x GP2X-F200 (kids)
2 x GP2X (kids)
2 x Nokia N770 (me)
1 x Nokia 800 (me)
1 x Archos 405 (Mrs Mark)
1 x Motorola A780 phone (me)

Appliances & servers
--------------------
1 x PS3 running Ubuntu (no2 son)
1 x debian file/yp server/web host server etc.
1 x bubba excito file/media server
2 x white-russian linux wrt54gl routers
1 x mythtv/ubuntu appliance (all)

Of those, the desktops are all old, around 3yrs+, except my
personal one which is about 1 year old. Obviously, there's a load of
old kit outside in storage which will probably end up at the skip in the
end, but maybe not. Also, I exclude older stuff like the Psions,
sinclair machines and so on, as this stuff is not regularly used.

--
| mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |

JEDIDIAH espoused:
> On 2008-08-11, Mark Kent wrote:
>> Phil Da Lick! espoused:
>>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>>> It's a gradual thing and an overstatement, for sure.
>>>>
>>>> I don't agree that it's an overstatement. I've just received Dabs'
>>>> latest catalogue, and guess how many Vista logos there were? None. Not
>>>> one. Clearly, nobody is interested.
>>>>
>>>> How many desktop machines? Well, maybe one. Perhaps.
>>>> How many laptops/mobile devices? 30+
>>>> How many appliances? Several.
>>>>
>>>> Of particular note is that latest Archos 605? with integrated GPS.
>>>>
>>>> Times change, requirements change, people change. Nobody is interested
>>>> in accessing things which are locked into one place, which is the
>>>> fundamental idea behind the "desktop" computer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Trouble with the IT industry is the buzz is always about the growth.
>>> Desktops are kinda plateauing at the moment and all the movers and
>>> shakers have got major cloud bonage syndrome. That doesn't make desktops
>>> irrelevant.
>>
>> The existing plant will be around for years, I'm sure, and there will
>> always be some people who want a desktop machine, just as some people
>> still travel by horse and cart even today.
>
> ...except it's nothing like that.
>
> If I don't plan on lugging my main machine around, it makes 0.0
> sense for it to be a laptop. There are quieter, cooler and smaller
> desktop machines to be had. There are certainly CHEAPER machines
> to be had.
>
> Got a $280 laptop for me that can hold 1TB of storage?
>
> Given the BS at the TSA these days, it makes more sense to have
> a throwaway system as your "portable" anyways. So the notion of
> taking your "desktop replacement laptop" wherever you go is simply
> absurd.
>
> It might get hung up going through an airport somewhere.

You miss the point about mobility here. The "mobility" approach is that
your data is hosted, and you can access it from anything, anywhere. You
don't need devices with vast storage, therefore.

>
>>
>> I've written and presented at massive length on the "3-technology issue"
>> - there are many examples:
>>
>> shellack 78s->vinyl microgroove->CD->DVD->Internet/mp3/ogg
>>
>> At any one time, there's almost always 3 (or sometimes more) technologies
>> in place at the same time. There are the "legacy" formats which are
>> mostly being migrated onto something more modern, the "current generation"
>> and the "new".
>>
>> Desktop does not feature in the "new", nor in the "current", it's a
>
> The "desktop" isn't any older than the "laptop".
>
> They both pretty much appeared at the same time. There have ALWAYS
> been people interested in mobility and willing to make sacrifices
> for it.
>
> [deletia]
>

It's not about "desktop vs laptop", it's about mobility, moving around,
accessing things in different ways, not being tied to a particular
location, versus always having to come back to a particular machine in
order to get something.

One thing I have found is that those of us who travel regularly, often
internationally, have a much better grasp of these issues than those
people who are mostly desk-bound.

--
| mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
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| Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |

Mark Kent wrote:

< snip >

> You miss the point about mobility here. The "mobility" approach is that
> your data is hosted, and you can access it from anything, anywhere. You
> don't need devices with vast storage, therefore.

Certainly. And many people are even dumb enough to trust "hosted data"

--
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
you with experience...