Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user - Linux

This is a discussion on Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user - Linux ; On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 08:48:51 -0400, Linonut wrote: >> While choice is good, binary package management comes to mind as >> something which needs to get straightened out. > > Why? > > Which "best" way of doing things ...

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Thread: Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

  1. Re: Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 08:48:51 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    >> While choice is good, binary package management comes to mind as
    >> something which needs to get straightened out.

    >
    > Why?
    >
    > Which "best" way of doing things are you going to pick?
    >
    > How are you going to "force" people to do it the one "best" way?



    "Darwinism"? Instead we've got divergent development without significant
    improvement



    -Thufir

  2. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:48:24 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

    >> > The fact that OS X is growing and Linux isn't, tells you that OS X is
    >> > offering things that Linux is not.
    >> > - Mark Shuttleworth (founded Canonical Ltd. / Ubuntu Linux)

    >>
    >>
    >> It doesn't matter who said that, there's no causal link. The "why" of
    >> linux's low desktop growth is a complex topic.

    >
    > I don't see Shuttleworth implying a causal link there.


    He's implying that Linux not offering _____ has caused, or contributed
    to, the lack of Linux uptake on the desktop and that were Linux to offer
    ____, which is unstated, *then* linux adoption would increase.

    Or, "if Linux offered what Mac OS X offered then Linux would be adopted"
    would be a fair implication from his statement.


    -Thufir

  3. Re: Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    Thanks.

    --
    Gary S. Terhune
    MS-MVP Shell/User
    http://grystmill.com

    "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in message
    news:190nrpt4gfc3a.1cznwqkjffcyx$.dlg@40tude.net.. .
    > On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 17:21:00 -0700, Gary S. Terhune wrote:
    >
    >> Moshe Goldfarb is a Troll of the worst kind. A real POS. Does more damage
    >> to
    >> the reputation of Windows than any million Linux users could.
    >>
    >> Which makes me believe that you're really a Linux user, Moshe.

    >
    > There really isn't much that anyone can do to make Vista's reputation any
    > worse than it is.
    > Face it, Vista is a piker.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Moshe Goldfarb
    > Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    > Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    > http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/




  4. Re: Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Aug 8, 6:43*pm, chrisv wrote:
    > RonB wrote:
    > >Hans wrote:

    >
    > >> 4) Linux doesn't really run on old hardware.

    >
    > >Yeah, it does. You may not use the same distribution of Linux, or the same
    > >desktop, on all platforms, but you don't have to. That's the advantage of
    > >having a choice.

    >
    > Hell, I was just reading the Ubuntu requirements - something like a
    > 1GHz CPU with 256M RAM. *That's *ancient*. *Hell, the 5-year-old PC my
    > daughter uses is a 3GHz P4 with a GB of RAM - obviously quite
    > sufficient to run any OS out there (except Visduh, of course).


    That's not fair at all. I've got Vista running on a similar machine
    (a Dell with a 3GHz hyper-threading P4 with 1GB of RAM, which is
    coincidentally also approaching five years of age) and it runs quite
    nicely with Aero Glass. Ubuntu also runs very nicely on it as well.

  5. Re: Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Aug 8, 8:44*am, "Hans" wrote:
    > http://www.whylinuxsucks.org/why-lin...a-view-experie...
    > The fundamental issue with Linux seems to be the developers and the hackers
    > who write the programs. Quite simply, they hold a rather schizophrenic view
    > of Linux. They see Linux as an opportunity to play, develop, which is fine,
    > but also want Linux to become dominant, or at least far more prevalent. Most
    > computer users do NOT want a 'developers OS', they want an OS which does
    > what THEY want.
    > 1) Developers don't listen or understand what ordinary users want.
    > 2) There are too many software projects which duplicate effort.
    > 3) Hackers/Zealots have screwed priorities.
    > 4) Linux doesn't really run on old hardware.
    > 5) Hackers/Zealots have unrealistic expectations from users.
    >

  6. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:35:10 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > "Rick" stated in post
    > 0qKdnf4tqPhGhAPVnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/9/08 3:27 PM:
    >
    > ...
    >>>> The significance is that Linux systems offer the user so much, and
    >>>> adoption of Linux systems is growing so slowly compared to the total
    >>>> number of users.
    >>>
    >>> But there are many things Linux does not offer: the choice of a
    >>> non-fractured user experience,

    >>
    >> Will you give the fracture BS a rest? It is inconsequential when
    >> talking about FOSS adoption.

    >
    > Repetition: the best Rick can do!


    Repeating facts is all that is needed:

    Will you give the fracture BS a rest? It is inconsequential when talking
    about FOSS adoption.

    >
    >>> direct support from Microsoft and Adobe software (and some other big
    >>> venders),

    >>
    >> If Microsoft could get away with it, it would probably drop support for
    >> the Mac, in fact Apple was threatened with that, and was one of the
    >> things Microsoft was found guilty in court.

    >
    > Are you now saying Microsoft has an obligation to support Linux?


    Nope.

    > How about Adobe? Apple? Intuit? Semantic? Corel? Nero? Roxio?


    Nope.

    Besides Intuit, Semantic, Corel, Nero and oxio don't ned to support Linu
    systems. There are plenty of FOSS alternatives that are at least as good
    as wwhat they offer.

    >
    > On and on... who do you think *owes* the Linux community to support them
    > by creating software for it?


    I never said or implied anyone *owes+ the Liux community anything.

    >
    >>> support for niche businesses (OS X is in the same boat there), etc.
    >>>
    >>>> Linux systems and FOS are not generally know by the general using
    >>>> population. Other proprietary systems are, and still Microsoft has a
    >>>> 90%+ marketshare.
    >>>
    >>> You repeat claims that are not under contention a lot.


    You sure repeat yourself a lot.


    --
    Rick

  7. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    "Rick" stated in post
    0qKdnfUtqPhE-gPVnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/9/08 9:00 PM:

    > On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:35:10 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >
    >> "Rick" stated in post
    >> 0qKdnf4tqPhGhAPVnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/9/08 3:27 PM:
    >>
    >> ...
    >>>>> The significance is that Linux systems offer the user so much, and
    >>>>> adoption of Linux systems is growing so slowly compared to the total
    >>>>> number of users.
    >>>>
    >>>> But there are many things Linux does not offer: the choice of a
    >>>> non-fractured user experience,
    >>>
    >>> Will you give the fracture BS a rest? It is inconsequential when
    >>> talking about FOSS adoption.

    >>
    >> Repetition: the best Rick can do!

    >
    > Repeating facts is all that is needed:
    >
    > Will you give the fracture BS a rest? It is inconsequential when talking
    > about FOSS adoption.


    You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I do.

    Snit RonB
    Hadron Rick
    Tim Smith Gregory Shearman
    KDE docs Peter Köhlmann
    Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    OpenOffice docs El Tux
    Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    Screen shots 7
    Videos
    Tim Berners-Lee
    Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    Shuttleworth, Mark
    UI Experts [2]
    Common sense
    Bloggers

    [1] Including, but not limited to the ones referenced here:
    Carole A George, "Usability testing and design of a
    library website: an iterative approach" 2005
    Cheul Rhee,* et. al.,*"Web interface consistency in
    e-learning.*Online Information Review" Social
    Science Module*database" 2006
    John W Satzinger,* Lorne Olfman "User Interface Consistency
    Across End-User Applications: The Effects on Mental
    Models" 1998
    R. Chimera, ³The Carm Group: Designing GUIs for
    Usability² 1996.
    R. Chimera and B. Shneiderman, ³User Interface Consistency:
    An Evaluation of Original and Revised Versions for a
    Videodisk Library² 1993

    [2] Including, but not limited to:
    Richard Chimera of the Human-Computer Interaction
    Laboratory at the University of Maryland and ASU, etc.


    Jakob Nielsen:

    Rick Oppedisano, published in Usabilities Professionals Association
    http://snipurl.com/oppedisano

    Henry P. Ledgard in The Case Against User Interface Consistency

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access

    >>>> direct support from Microsoft and Adobe software (and some other big
    >>>> venders),
    >>>
    >>> If Microsoft could get away with it, it would probably drop support for
    >>> the Mac, in fact Apple was threatened with that, and was one of the
    >>> things Microsoft was found guilty in court.

    >>
    >> Are you now saying Microsoft has an obligation to support Linux?

    >
    > Nope.


    Good - then MS is not "getting away" with anything by not supporting Linux.

    We are in agreement.

    ....


    --
    Satan lives for my sins... now *that* is dedication!


  8. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    Snit wrote:
    > "Rick" stated in post
    > 0qKdnfUtqPhE-gPVnZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/9/08 9:00 PM:
    >
    >> On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 15:35:10 -0700, Snit wrote:

    (snip)
    >>> Are you now saying Microsoft has an obligation to support Linux?

    >> Nope.

    >
    > Good - then MS is not "getting away" with anything by not supporting Linux.
    >
    > We are in agreement.
    >

    We are possibly in agreement that Microsoft has no obligation to support
    Linux.

    Why is it so important to yu to get me to say we are in agreement?

    --
    Rick

  9. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    "Hadron" stated in post
    g7lqrn$qpp$3@registered.motzarella.org on 8/9/08 9:29 PM:

    > Snit writes:
    >
    >>
    >> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I do.
    >>
    >> Snit RonB
    >> Hadron Rick
    >> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman
    >> KDE docs Peter Köhlmann
    >> Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >> Screen shots 7
    >> Videos
    >> Tim Berners-Lee
    >> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >> UI Experts [2]
    >> Common sense
    >> Bloggers

    >
    > The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    > round up". Good work.


    I do not mind them disagreeing... in fact I *welcome* it. I just wish they
    could find some support to defend their views.

    So far... nope.


    --
    Dear Aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...21217782777472


  10. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:29:41 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Snit writes:
    >
    >
    >> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I do.
    >>
    >> Snit RonB
    >> Hadron Rick
    >> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >> Screen shots 7
    >> Videos
    >> Tim Berners-Lee
    >> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >> UI Experts [2]
    >> Common sense
    >> Bloggers

    >
    > The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    > round up". Good work.



    You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?

    --
    Rick

  11. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    "Rick" stated in post
    aa6dnTdu3ozLVgPVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/10/08 4:04 AM:

    > On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:29:41 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Snit writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I do.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Snit RonB
    >>> Hadron Rick
    >>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman
    >>> KDE docs Peter Köhlmann
    >>> Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>> Screen shots 7
    >>> Videos
    >>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>> UI Experts [2]
    >>> Common sense
    >>> Bloggers
    >>>

    >>
    >> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    >> round up". Good work.

    >
    >
    > You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?


    I would agree that the name calling is counter-productive.

    So why not rise above that, Rick, and show *some* support for your
    disagreement with those of us listed on the left, above. If you can show
    some support I will happily list it with the group on the right.

    Frankly the fact that this is even a debate is rather odd. *All* data
    supports the idea that a fractured user experience, such as the one provided
    by PCLOS, has a considerable and quantifiable detrimental effect on the
    user.


    --
    Teachers open the door but you must walk through it yourself.


  12. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    Rick writes:

    > On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:29:41 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Snit writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I do.
    >>>
    >>> Snit RonB
    >>> Hadron Rick
    >>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >>> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>> Screen shots 7
    >>> Videos
    >>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>> UI Experts [2]
    >>> Common sense
    >>> Bloggers

    >>
    >> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    >> round up". Good work.

    >
    >
    > You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?


    "bitch", "jerk" etc etc

    And this bit of self righteous hypocrisy is brought to you by COLA's
    main 'tard "Rick".

  13. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 07:26:00 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > "Rick" stated in post
    > aa6dnTdu3ozLVgPVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/10/08 4:04 AM:
    >
    >> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:29:41 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Snit writes:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I
    >>>> do.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Snit RonB
    >>>> Hadron Rick
    >>>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >>>> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>>> Screen shots 7
    >>>> Videos
    >>>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>>> UI Experts [2]
    >>>> Common sense
    >>>> Bloggers
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    >>> round up". Good work.

    >>
    >>
    >> You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?

    >
    > I would agree that the name calling is counter-productive.
    >
    > So why not rise above that, Rick, and show *some* support for your
    > disagreement with those of us listed on the left, above. If you can
    > show some support I will happily list it with the group on the right.
    >
    > Frankly the fact that this is even a debate is rather odd. *All* data
    > supports the idea that a fractured user experience, such as the one
    > provided by PCLOS, has a considerable and quantifiable detrimental
    > effect on the user.



    Frankly I have supported my position.


    --
    Rick

  14. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    "Rick" stated in post
    aa6dnSxu3owbmwLVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/10/08 8:17 AM:

    ....
    >>>>> Snit RonB
    >>>>> Hadron Rick
    >>>>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman
    >>>>> KDE docs Peter Köhlmann
    >>>>> Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>>>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>>>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>>>> Screen shots 7
    >>>>> Videos
    >>>>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>>>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>>>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>>>> UI Experts [2]
    >>>>> Common sense
    >>>>> Bloggers
    >>>>>
    >>>> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    >>>> round up". Good work.
    >>>
    >>> You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?

    >>
    >> I would agree that the name calling is counter-productive.
    >>
    >> So why not rise above that, Rick, and show *some* support for your
    >> disagreement with those of us listed on the left, above. If you can
    >> show some support I will happily list it with the group on the right.
    >>
    >> Frankly the fact that this is even a debate is rather odd. *All* data
    >> supports the idea that a fractured user experience, such as the one
    >> provided by PCLOS, has a considerable and quantifiable detrimental
    >> effect on the user.

    >
    > Frankly I have supported my position.
    >

    Excellent, then quoting it should be a breeze! No need for you to do any
    tough research, just quote from the post. This is such good news, Rick.

    Right?

    Rick?

    Right?

    Oh.

    No quote from you.

    Man, why not?

    It is like you do not have any real support at all. Very much like that, in
    fact. Wow... so much like that... well... if it looks like a duck and
    quacks like a duck.


    --
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
    that take our breath away.




  15. Re: Why Linux won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    some idiot froging chrisv wrote:

    > Gary S. Terhune wrote:
    >> Moshe Goldfarb is a Troll of the worst kind. A real POS. Does more
    >> damage to the reputation of Windows than any million Linux users could.
    >> Which makes me believe that you're really a Linux user, Moshe.

    >
    > Hush child. We consider Moshe a bit of a hero.


    "We" being nym-shifting, nym-stealing cretins? How impressive.

  16. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 08:27:16 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > "Rick" stated in post
    > aa6dnSxu3owbmwLVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/10/08 8:17 AM:
    >
    > ...
    >>>>>> Snit RonB
    >>>>>> Hadron Rick
    >>>>>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >>>>>> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>>>>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>>>>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>>>>> Screen shots 7
    >>>>>> Videos
    >>>>>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>>>>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>>>>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>>>>> UI Experts [2]
    >>>>>> Common sense
    >>>>>> Bloggers
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly
    >>>>> "retard round up". Good work.
    >>>>
    >>>> You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?
    >>>
    >>> I would agree that the name calling is counter-productive.
    >>>
    >>> So why not rise above that, Rick, and show *some* support for your
    >>> disagreement with those of us listed on the left, above. If you can
    >>> show some support I will happily list it with the group on the right.
    >>>
    >>> Frankly the fact that this is even a debate is rather odd. *All* data
    >>> supports the idea that a fractured user experience, such as the one
    >>> provided by PCLOS, has a considerable and quantifiable detrimental
    >>> effect on the user.

    >>
    >> Frankly I have supported my position.
    >>

    > Excellent, then quoting it should be a breeze! No need for you to do
    > any tough research, just quote from the post. This is such good news,
    > Rick.
    >
    > Right?
    >
    > Rick?
    >
    > Right?
    >
    > Oh.
    >
    > No quote from you.
    >
    > Man, why not?
    >
    > It is like you do not have any real support at all. Very much like
    > that, in fact. Wow... so much like that... well... if it looks like a
    > duck and quacks like a duck.


    Ok, you pathetic little person:

    Distros offer the ability to use different Windowing environments. They
    usually have a default environment that is installed unless the user
    chooses to over ride the default. That is called user choice, not
    fractured UI. Each UI is consistent within itself. A user is free to use
    applications not native to the default windowing environment. That is
    called user choice, not a fractured UI.Each environment is consistent
    within it self.

    Each windowing environment is consistent with itself. Users are free to
    use "non-native" applications if they wish. I am not familiar with
    Windows alternative environments, except for VMs, so will not comment.
    Apple, however, initially included OS 9 with OS X, and so by your
    definition, it
    seems, fractured its UI. Aqua and Classic were included for a long time,
    and so, by your definition, it seems, fractured its UI. Even now, Apple
    bundles X with Leopard, and so, by you definition, fractures its UI.
    Except, you are wrong. It is called user choice. Each environment is
    consistent within it self.

    Multiple UI environments have been a staple in computing since there were
    computers. Apple //s had them. DOS machines had them. Macs have them now.
    Not only are there multiple windowing environments for whatever native OS
    a person is using, VMs allow foreign OS to run side by side with the
    "native" OS. And, there are "emulators" such as Wine that allow "non-
    native" apps to run. You can even run Linux in a text environment... no
    GUI.

    Having the ability to run non-native apps is not having a fractured UI,
    it is the freedom to run non-native apps.

    There are windowing environments and there are applications that are
    written for the specific environments. The environments are cross
    platform, so that the environment and app written for will will generally
    look the same regardless or hardware architecture or underlying operating
    system. Apps written for a specific environment are native to that
    specific environment.

    Since it is the user that is starting the apps and using the apps, it is
    the user that is mixing the environments. Mixing as in mixing things
    together, not mixing a distro. I have the feeling I am going to have to
    repeat that to you many times.



    --
    Rick

  17. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:11:36 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:29:41 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Snit writes:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I
    >>>> do.
    >>>>
    >>>> Snit RonB
    >>>> Hadron Rick
    >>>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >>>> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>>> Screen shots 7
    >>>> Videos
    >>>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>>> UI Experts [2]
    >>>> Common sense
    >>>> Bloggers
    >>>
    >>> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    >>> round up". Good work.

    >>
    >>
    >> You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?

    >
    > "bitch", "jerk" etc etc
    >
    > And this bit of self righteous hypocrisy is brought to you by COLA's
    > main 'tard "Rick".


    Yup .. there ya go again, jerk.

    here's a clue...

    When liars stop lying, I will stop them calling liars.

    When flatfarb stops calling Linux users loosn, I'll stop calling it a
    bitch.

    When you stop calling people retard, I'll stop calling you a jerk.



    --
    Rick

  18. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    Rick writes:

    > On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:11:36 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Rick writes:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:29:41 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Snit writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I
    >>>>> do.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Snit RonB
    >>>>> Hadron Rick
    >>>>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >>>>> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>>>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>>>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>>>> Screen shots 7
    >>>>> Videos
    >>>>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>>>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>>>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>>>> UI Experts [2]
    >>>>> Common sense
    >>>>> Bloggers
    >>>>
    >>>> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly "retard
    >>>> round up". Good work.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?

    >>
    >> "bitch", "jerk" etc etc
    >>
    >> And this bit of self righteous hypocrisy is brought to you by COLA's
    >> main 'tard "Rick".

    >
    > Yup .. there ya go again, jerk.
    >
    > here's a clue...
    >
    > When liars stop lying, I will stop them calling liars.
    >
    > When flatfarb stops calling Linux users loosn, I'll stop calling it a
    > bitch.
    >
    > When you stop calling people retard, I'll stop calling you a jerk.


    Hmm. A vicious circle. Since I wont stop calling you a retard until you
    stop acting like one. And lets face it, thats hardly likely to happen in
    your lifetime unless some new meds are developed.

  19. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    "Rick" stated in post
    aa6dnSZu3ozKjwLVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/10/08 9:07 AM:

    > On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 08:27:16 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >
    >> "Rick" stated in post
    >> aa6dnSxu3owbmwLVnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@supernews.com on 8/10/08 8:17 AM:
    >>
    >> ...
    >>>>>>> Snit RonB
    >>>>>>> Hadron Rick
    >>>>>>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >>>>>>> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>>>>>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>>>>>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>>>>>> Screen shots 7
    >>>>>>> Videos
    >>>>>>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>>>>>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>>>>>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>>>>>> UI Experts [2]
    >>>>>>> Common sense
    >>>>>>> Bloggers
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly
    >>>>>> "retard round up". Good work.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?
    >>>>
    >>>> I would agree that the name calling is counter-productive.
    >>>>
    >>>> So why not rise above that, Rick, and show *some* support for your
    >>>> disagreement with those of us listed on the left, above. If you can
    >>>> show some support I will happily list it with the group on the right.
    >>>>
    >>>> Frankly the fact that this is even a debate is rather odd. *All* data
    >>>> supports the idea that a fractured user experience, such as the one
    >>>> provided by PCLOS, has a considerable and quantifiable detrimental
    >>>> effect on the user.
    >>>
    >>> Frankly I have supported my position.
    >>>

    >> Excellent, then quoting it should be a breeze! No need for you to do
    >> any tough research, just quote from the post. This is such good news,
    >> Rick.
    >>
    >> Right?
    >>
    >> Rick?
    >>
    >> Right?
    >>
    >> Oh.
    >>
    >> No quote from you.
    >>
    >> Man, why not?
    >>
    >> It is like you do not have any real support at all. Very much like
    >> that, in fact. Wow... so much like that... well... if it looks like a
    >> duck and quacks like a duck.

    >
    > Ok, you pathetic little person:
    >
    > Distros offer the ability to use different Windowing environments. They
    > usually have a default environment that is installed unless the user
    > chooses to over ride the default. That is called user choice, not
    > fractured UI. Each UI is consistent within itself. A user is free to use
    > applications not native to the default windowing environment. That is
    > called user choice, not a fractured UI.Each environment is consistent
    > within it self.
    >
    > Each windowing environment is consistent with itself. Users are free to
    > use "non-native" applications if they wish. I am not familiar with
    > Windows alternative environments, except for VMs, so will not comment.
    > Apple, however, initially included OS 9 with OS X, and so by your
    > definition, it
    > seems, fractured its UI. Aqua and Classic were included for a long time,
    > and so, by your definition, it seems, fractured its UI. Even now, Apple
    > bundles X with Leopard, and so, by you definition, fractures its UI.
    > Except, you are wrong. It is called user choice. Each environment is
    > consistent within it self.
    >
    > Multiple UI environments have been a staple in computing since there were
    > computers. Apple //s had them. DOS machines had them. Macs have them now.
    > Not only are there multiple windowing environments for whatever native OS
    > a person is using, VMs allow foreign OS to run side by side with the
    > "native" OS. And, there are "emulators" such as Wine that allow "non-
    > native" apps to run. You can even run Linux in a text environment... no
    > GUI.
    >
    > Having the ability to run non-native apps is not having a fractured UI,
    > it is the freedom to run non-native apps.
    >
    > There are windowing environments and there are applications that are
    > written for the specific environments. The environments are cross
    > platform, so that the environment and app written for will will generally
    > look the same regardless or hardware architecture or underlying operating
    > system. Apps written for a specific environment are native to that
    > specific environment.
    >
    > Since it is the user that is starting the apps and using the apps, it is
    > the user that is mixing the environments. Mixing as in mixing things
    > together, not mixing a distro. I have the feeling I am going to have to
    > repeat that to you many times.
    >
    >

    You did not talk about the downsides of the fractured UI of PCLOS and
    distros like it... nor try to show that those downsides did not exist (which
    is what you would have had to do to support your disagreement with those of
    us listed on the left). What you did was try to excuse it as "choice" while
    ignoring the fact that there is *no* other choice on desktop Linux - the
    choice of a non-fractured user experience does not exist in any real way.
    If it did you would point to a distro or list of programs. You repeatedly
    fail to do so.



    --
    Dear Aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...21217782777472


  20. Re: Why Vista won't succeed - A view from an experienced user

    On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:17:28 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:11:36 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Rick writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:29:41 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Snit writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> You and those on your "side" have facts to back up your claims. I
    >>>>>> do.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Snit RonB
    >>>>>> Hadron Rick
    >>>>>> Tim Smith Gregory Shearman KDE docs
    >>>>>> Peter Köhlmann Gnome docs JEDIDIAH
    >>>>>> OpenOffice docs El Tux
    >>>>>> Firefox docs vs. chrisv
    >>>>>> Screen shots 7
    >>>>>> Videos
    >>>>>> Tim Berners-Lee
    >>>>>> Peer Reviewed Studies [1]
    >>>>>> Shuttleworth, Mark
    >>>>>> UI Experts [2]
    >>>>>> Common sense
    >>>>>> Bloggers
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The names on the right there are a good start for the monthly
    >>>>> "retard round up". Good work.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> You just keep calling people that name, don't you, jerk?
    >>>
    >>> "bitch", "jerk" etc etc
    >>>
    >>> And this bit of self righteous hypocrisy is brought to you by COLA's
    >>> main 'tard "Rick".

    >>
    >> Yup .. there ya go again, jerk.
    >>
    >> here's a clue...
    >>
    >> When liars stop lying, I will stop them calling liars.
    >>
    >> When flatfarb stops calling Linux users loosn, I'll stop calling it a
    >> bitch.
    >>
    >> When you stop calling people retard, I'll stop calling you a jerk.

    >
    > Hmm. A vicious circle. Since I wont stop calling you a retard until you
    > stop acting like one. And lets face it, thats hardly likely to happen in
    > your lifetime unless some new meds are developed.



    Too bad, jerk.


    --
    Rick

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