[News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump) - Linux

This is a discussion on [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump) - Linux ; Homer wrote: > Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly: >> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote: > >>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono >> >> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed >> under the GPL ...

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Thread: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

  1. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    Homer wrote:
    > Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly:
    >> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote:

    >
    >>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono

    >>
    >> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    >> support a Mono based application

    >
    > Yes.


    But out of the other side of your hypocrite mouth, you're plenty willing to
    run Windows, play Windows games, and use the 'patent-encumbered' mpeg video
    format.






  2. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    * Tom Shelton peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On 2008-07-11, Linonut wrote:
    >> * Tom Shelton peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >> Try marking beagle (not libbeagle) for installation. You'll see a lot
    >> of libmono libraries added as dependencies.

    >
    > As would be expected... Beagle is a mono app. libbeagle is a C library that
    > Beagle uses for some of it's functionality. libbeagle doesn't relay on mono.


    Already clarified.

    > 1) de Icaza has no control of the Gnome foundation. He is a founding member,
    > does not really control it anymore. So, what he may or may not want is
    > irrelavant.


    Sure it's relevant, unless he's been ostracized.

    > 2) Gnome will never be based on .NET - it might however be based on Mono.
    > That may seem a distinction without a difference, but in fact it is not. I'm
    > fairly certain that they will not be as stupid as to use any of the .NET
    > specific portions of the mono libraries in Gnome... I would assume they will
    > use the Mono specific stuff, like GTK#


    You may be assuming too much.

    We'll see.

    --
    When I hear a man applauded by the mob I always feel a pang of pity
    for him. All he has to do to be hissed is to live long enough.
    -- H. L. Mencken, "Minority Report"

  3. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    * Homer peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly:
    >> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote:

    >
    >>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono

    >>
    >> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    >> support a Mono based application

    >
    > Yes.


    I would have thought Tom would be well-versed in the dangers of
    dependencies.

    --
    Commoner's three laws of ecology:
    (1) No action is without side-effects.
    (2) Nothing ever goes away.
    (3) There is no free lunch.

  4. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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    ____/ Homer on Saturday 12 July 2008 17:46 : \____

    > Verily I say unto thee, that Linonut spake thusly:
    >> * Homer peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>> Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly:
    >>>> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote:

    >
    >>>>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono
    >>>>
    >>>> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >>>> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written
    >>>> to support a Mono based application
    >>>
    >>> Yes.

    >>
    >> I would have thought Tom would be well-versed in the dangers of
    >> dependencies.

    >
    > Even in the case of components that have no hard dependency on Mono, but
    > are nonetheless designed exclusively to support it (or rather software
    > created in that framework), those components are still furthering the
    > goal of something that is potentially dangerous to Free Software.
    >
    > And that goes equally for DotGNU.
    >
    > And again, let me stress that this is /not/ so much about /patents/ as
    > the /patentor/ (Microsoft, the self-declared enemy of Free Software).
    >
    > I find it difficult to believe that so many people have such a hard time
    > consolidating the relationship between Microsoft's technology and their
    > nefarious motives. It's not like Microsoft hasn't made it crystal clear.


    It's being claimed that DotGNU just enables .NET apps to run on Linux (a matter
    of migration, a la Mainsoft), whereas Mono has developed a culture around
    MonoDevelop and the likes of it (sponsored by Novell). Many GNOME desktops
    (complete ones) already use 'next-gen' apps like Beagle and Banshee (which
    will support video too). I can envision a GNOME 4.0 where all the key apps *in
    deployment* are .NET-based, but I hope to be found wrong.

    De Icaza got the boot (no longer GNOME president) only after the controversies
    last year (mainly OOXML-related). They tried to have him resigned quietly but
    failed to keep it secret for all I can tell.

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    "The danger is that Microsoft is using strategic monopolistic pricing in the
    education market, with the government’s assistance, to turn our state
    university systems into private workforce training programs for Microsoft."
    --Nathan Newman
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  5. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:10:05 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > Homer wrote:
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly:
    >>> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote:

    >>
    >>>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono
    >>>
    >>> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >>> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    >>> support a Mono based application

    >>
    >> Yes.

    >
    > But out of the other side of your hypocrite mouth, you're plenty willing to
    > run Windows, play Windows games, and use the 'patent-encumbered' mpeg video
    > format.


    [Homer] is just another Linux hypocrite.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  6. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    In article <1osp9koqitks9.16zzpqrl1af7g.dlg@40tude.net>,
    "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:
    > >>> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    > >>> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    > >>> support a Mono based application
    > >>
    > >> Yes.

    > >
    > > But out of the other side of your hypocrite mouth, you're plenty willing to
    > > run Windows, play Windows games, and use the 'patent-encumbered' mpeg video
    > > format.

    >
    > [Homer] is just another Linux hypocrite.


    Homer doesn't understand GPL. (What would you expect from an idiot who
    says that a remote site getting a root process on your machine to use up
    all your disk space doesn't count as an attack?)

    --
    --Tim Smith

  7. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:15:01 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

    > In article <1osp9koqitks9.16zzpqrl1af7g.dlg@40tude.net>,
    > "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:
    >>>>> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >>>>> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    >>>>> support a Mono based application
    >>>>
    >>>> Yes.
    >>>
    >>> But out of the other side of your hypocrite mouth, you're plenty willing to
    >>> run Windows, play Windows games, and use the 'patent-encumbered' mpeg video
    >>> format.

    >>
    >> [Homer] is just another Linux hypocrite.

    >
    > Homer doesn't understand GPL. (What would you expect from an idiot who
    > says that a remote site getting a root process on your machine to use up
    > all your disk space doesn't count as an attack?)


    [Homer] has a mental problem that does not allow him to even remotely
    consider anything outside his paranoid world of free for everyone software.

    Just read his posts.....

    If he spewed stuff like that in say a court, they would come after him with
    nets and white jackets.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  8. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    On 2008-07-12, Linonut wrote:
    > * Homer peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly:
    >>> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote:

    >>
    >>>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono
    >>>
    >>> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >>> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    >>> support a Mono based application

    >>
    >> Yes.

    >
    > I would have thought Tom would be well-versed in the dangers of
    > dependencies.
    >


    What dependancies here are dangerous? libbeagle does NOT relay on anything
    mono. It is a straight C library.

    The position that Homer is taking, and you seem to be supporting, is IMHO,
    sort of ridiculous... Is he going to stop using any app that shares a
    dependency with some Mono based app? I don't really fault him for his ideals
    of free software - I don't happen to agree - but, I think this whole
    controversy over libbeagle is non-sense.... I mean seriously, it takes some
    pretty hairy mental contortions to make arguments against libbeagle actually
    work...

    --
    Tom Shelton

  9. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    * Tom Shelton peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On 2008-07-12, Linonut wrote:
    >> * Homer peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>> Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly:
    >>>> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono
    >>>>
    >>>> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >>>> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    >>>> support a Mono based application
    >>>
    >>> Yes.

    >>
    >> I would have thought Tom would be well-versed in the dangers of
    >> dependencies.
    >>

    >
    > What dependancies here are dangerous? libbeagle does NOT relay on anything
    > mono. It is a straight C library.


    Dude, why /is/ there a libbeagle? To support an API.

    You use libbeagle, now you're dependent on that API.

    > The position that Homer is taking, and you seem to be supporting, is IMHO,
    > sort of ridiculous... Is he going to stop using any app that shares a
    > dependency with some Mono based app? I don't really fault him for his ideals
    > of free software - I don't happen to agree - but, I think this whole
    > controversy over libbeagle is non-sense.... I mean seriously, it takes some
    > pretty hairy mental contortions to make arguments against libbeagle actually
    > work...


    No, it doesn't.

    Let's say I made a library for dealing with MP3, in the days before the
    patents on it were being enforced. I use it in my product, and now my
    product is dependent on MP3. My product is now on the market. Now the
    patents start to be enforced. I'm screwed. Either drop the project in
    favor of a far less popular format, or pay up.

    It has /nothing/ to do with the language my library uses.

    --
    JAPAN is a WONDERFUL planet -- I wonder if we'll ever reach their level
    of COMPARATIVE SHOPPING ...

  10. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    In article <7Toek.513$P8.299@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
    Linonut wrote:
    > Let's say I made a library for dealing with MP3, in the days before the
    > patents on it were being enforced. I use it in my product, and now my
    > product is dependent on MP3. My product is now on the market. Now the


    No, your product is dependent on the library API.

    > patents start to be enforced. I'm screwed. Either drop the project in
    > favor of a far less popular format, or pay up.


    Wouldn't you be in the same position had you not used the library?

    But, since you used the library, you can switch to another format,
    transparently, by implementing a library that uses that other format,
    but keeps the same interface.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  11. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article <7Toek.513$P8.299@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
    > Linonut wrote:
    >> Let's say I made a library for dealing with MP3, in the days before the
    >> patents on it were being enforced. I use it in my product, and now my
    >> product is dependent on MP3. My product is now on the market. Now the

    >
    > No, your product is dependent on the library API.


    Warning: semantic niggling ensuing.

    >> patents start to be enforced. I'm screwed. Either drop the project in
    >> favor of a far less popular format, or pay up.

    >
    > Wouldn't you be in the same position had you not used the library?


    Indeed.

    > But, since you used the library, you can switch to another format,
    > transparently, by implementing a library that uses that other format,
    > but keeps the same interface.


    True.

    But it would have been more efficient to have used another format
    entirely. That way, you don't do a lot of work that will either have to
    be redone or result in you paying royalties.

    And guess what knowledge gives you an increased probability of this
    problem? Knowledge that a patent exists.

    --
    It would be illogical to assume that all conditions remain stable.
    -- Spock, "The Enterprise Incident", stardate 5027.3

  12. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    On 2008-07-13, Linonut wrote:
    > * Tom Shelton peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> On 2008-07-12, Linonut wrote:
    >>> * Homer peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>
    >>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Tom Shelton spake thusly:
    >>>>> On 2008-07-11, Homer wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>> http://slated.org/free_software_diseased_by_mono
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So, let me get this straight, a library written in C and licensed
    >>>>> under the GPL is unacceptable because it happened to be written to
    >>>>> support a Mono based application
    >>>>
    >>>> Yes.
    >>>
    >>> I would have thought Tom would be well-versed in the dangers of
    >>> dependencies.
    >>>

    >>
    >> What dependancies here are dangerous? libbeagle does NOT relay on anything
    >> mono. It is a straight C library.

    >
    > Dude, why /is/ there a libbeagle? To support an API.
    >
    > You use libbeagle, now you're dependent on that API.
    >


    Just like if you use say, readline, qt, or any other shared library.

    >> The position that Homer is taking, and you seem to be supporting, is IMHO,
    >> sort of ridiculous... Is he going to stop using any app that shares a
    >> dependency with some Mono based app? I don't really fault him for his ideals
    >> of free software - I don't happen to agree - but, I think this whole
    >> controversy over libbeagle is non-sense.... I mean seriously, it takes some
    >> pretty hairy mental contortions to make arguments against libbeagle actually
    >> work...

    >
    > No, it doesn't.
    >


    Yes, it does

    > Let's say I made a library for dealing with MP3, in the days before the
    > patents on it were being enforced. I use it in my product, and now my
    > product is dependent on MP3. My product is now on the market. Now the
    > patents start to be enforced. I'm screwed. Either drop the project in
    > favor of a far less popular format, or pay up.
    >
    > It has /nothing/ to do with the language my library uses.
    >


    Ok... Then please enumerate the patent encumbered or potentially dangerous
    functionality in that library. Don't base your opinion simply on the fact
    that it is used by a Mono app - base it on what the library does.

    --
    Tom Shelton

  13. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    * Tom Shelton peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On 2008-07-13, Linonut wrote:
    > Ok... Then please enumerate the patent encumbered or potentially dangerous
    > functionality in that library. Don't base your opinion simply on the fact
    > that it is used by a Mono app - base it on what the library does.


    You still don't get it, do you?

    http://beagle-project.org/Main_Page

    Download the source tarballs:

    * beagle - Core Beagle daemon and GUIs
    * libbeagle - C and Python APIs
    * beagle-xesam - Xesam adaptor for Beagle

    Beagle -- dependent on a number of Mono (patent-encumbered) libraries
    Libbeagle -- An API for Beagle

    Of course, you /might/ be able to find some use for libbeagle separate
    from Beagle. If so, sure, go ahead an use it.

    But the library is written solely to support Beagle. From the tarball:

    beagle-daemon-information-response.c beagle-query-part-text.c
    beagle-empty-response.c beagle-query-part-uri.c
    beagle-error-response.c beagle-query-part-wildcard.c
    beagle-finished-response.c beagle-query-part.c
    beagle-hit.c beagle-query.c
    beagle-hits-added-response.c beagle-queryable-status.c
    beagle-hits-subtracted-response.c beagle-request.c
    . . .

    Now, beagle itself is included in Debian, as is Mono. Fine, as long as
    Microsoft doesn't pull any patent trigger on Nono.

    Other stuff (and probably lots of it) in a Linux distro no doubt
    infringes on patents. That's the world we live in. But why
    deliberately court danger by using technology over which Microsoft may
    be rattling a patent sabre?

    --
    Insanity is hereditary. You get it from your kids.

  14. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:
    > Now, beagle itself is included in Debian, as is Mono. Fine, as long as
    > Microsoft doesn't pull any patent trigger on Nono.


    I doubt Beagle uses the unsafe parts of Mono. It is just using the
    parts that were submitted to ECMA and then ISO.



    --
    --Tim Smith

  15. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    ____/ Homer on Sunday 13 July 2008 21:17 : \____

    > Verily I say unto thee, that Linonut spake thusly:
    >
    >> Other stuff (and probably lots of it) in a Linux distro no doubt
    >> infringes on patents. That's the world we live in. But why
    >> deliberately court danger by using technology over which Microsoft
    >> may be rattling a patent sabre?

    >
    > And beyond patents, why support convicted monopolists with an agenda of
    > destroying Free Software, by using their technology, thereby helping to
    > promote its use, and therefore helping to promote that agenda?


    And why would Fedora remove Tomboy from the Live CD and put Moonlight in the
    chimneys? Either way, just found:

    Banshee by default in Intrepid

    https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/004497.html

    Mono infestation!


    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    "If you can’t make it good, at least make it look good."
    --Bill Gates, Microsoft
    http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Swap: 4088500k total, 4148k used, 4084352k free, 804584k cached
    http://iuron.com - next generation of search paradigms
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  16. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:

    > Banshee by default in Intrepid
    >
    > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/004497.html
    >
    >
    > Mono infestation!


    Ubuntu is a lost cause, but then Mono infects most of the main distros
    too, although not quite so aggressively.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining
    | armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos
    | neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate
    | technology, led them into it in the first place." ~ Douglas Adams
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    07:22:59 up 206 days, 3:58, 4 users, load average: 4.16, 4.38, 4.39

  17. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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    ____/ Homer on Monday 14 July 2008 06:23 : \____

    > Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
    >
    >> Banshee by default in Intrepid
    >>
    >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/004497.html
    >>
    >>
    >> Mono infestation!

    >
    > Ubuntu is a lost cause, but then Mono infects most of the main distros
    > too, although not quite so aggressively.


    Go to the home page of Banshee. Read the footer (it's nothing unusual for
    Novell these days). BTW, I summarised some of this in BN.com.

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    An aristocrat's sexual escapades equate to Technocrat's hot RSS feed
    http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    11:00:02 up 27 min, 1 user, load average: 6.62, 4.86, 2.47
    http://iuron.com - help build a non-profit search engine
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  18. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > Linonut wrote:
    >> Now, beagle itself is included in Debian, as is Mono. Fine, as long as
    >> Microsoft doesn't pull any patent trigger on Nono.

    >
    > I doubt Beagle uses the unsafe parts of Mono. It is just using the
    > parts that were submitted to ECMA and then ISO.


    So what?

    --
    Alter.net seems to have replaced one of its router with a zucchini.

  19. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    * Roy Schestowitz peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Go to the home page of Banshee. Read the footer (it's nothing unusual for
    > Novell these days). BTW, I summarised some of this in BN.com.


    http://banshee-project.org/

    All text and image content on banshee-project.org, unless otherwise
    specified, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share
    Alike 3.0 United States License. This does not include the Banshee
    name, logo, or icon. The Banshee name is a registered trademark of
    Novell. This does not include Banshee source code, which is licensed
    under the MIT X11 license. XHTML, CSS.

    --
    Perl will always provide the null.
    -- Larry Wall in <199801151818.KAA14538@wall.org>

  20. Re: [News] GNOME 2.30 Will be GNOME 3.0 (Version # Bump)

    Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:

    > Go to the home page of Banshee. Read the footer (it's nothing unusual
    > for Novell these days). BTW, I summarised some of this in BN.com.


    Eugh! They'll be calling it a "EULA" next.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining
    | armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos
    | neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate
    | technology, led them into it in the first place." ~ Douglas Adams
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    13:48:46 up 206 days, 10:24, 3 users, load average: 4.31, 4.23, 4.31

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