Automatix? Lets all invent the same thing..... - Linux

This is a discussion on Automatix? Lets all invent the same thing..... - Linux ; On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:47:39 -0400, Erik Funkenbusch wrote: > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:22:32 +0100, Homer wrote: > >> Verily I say unto thee, that The Ghost In The Machine spake thusly: >> >>> No installation experience ...

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Thread: Automatix? Lets all invent the same thing.....

  1. Re: Automatix? Lets all invent the same thing.....

    On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:47:39 -0400, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:22:32 +0100, Homer wrote:
    >
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that The Ghost In The Machine spake thusly:
    >>
    >>> No installation experience from Linux will meet the ability for a
    >>> Windows user to download a SETUP.EXE onto his desktop, double-click,
    >>> and within seconds have a fully functional application/game/utility.

    >>
    >> No installation experience from /Windows/ will meet the ability for a
    >> /Linux/ user to type "sudo yum -y update", and within seconds have his
    >> entire OS, and every application on it, updated or installed.

    >
    > I have never administered a Linux system where that was true.
    >
    > I have always had to have some software that was installed as tarball, or
    > had to be hand reconfigured, which means that automatic update will not
    > work with that software.
    >
    > Things like custom installed codecs on a typical system will also be
    > problematic for users.


    If you stay within the confines of the programs that were
    installed/supported by your particular platformand they are mainstream
    programs, meaning popular it works rather well.

    Anything installed outside that realm won't, obviously, get updated.

    However, this is not the biggest problem with "update it all" that I have
    experienced.
    The biggest headache is broken packages which other packages depend upon,
    packages that may or may no longer exist (right down to the 5th level minor
    version number) on a particular server which will cause other packages to
    fail etc. Many times packages installed come from so called *test*
    repositories (wrong term I know, but you get the idea) which you have to
    force onto the system. Pan was like that for a while and the program worked
    fine, but when you would update GTK the whole enchilada would get hosed
    because of that *marked* package.

    So while [Homer] does make a point, it's great to be able to click "update"
    and get everything updated at once, it's questionable how well it works.

    BTW this is one reason to choose a distribution that has just about every
    package under the sun compiled for and packaged for that particular
    distribution.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  2. Re: Automatix? Lets all invent the same thing.....

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, thufir

    wrote
    on Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:52:32 GMT
    :
    > On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:47:29 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >
    >> I'm not that impressed with Gentoo's Porthole, though it works well
    >> enough. Of course Porthole, like emerge, can only work with
    >> Gentoo-provided offerings unless one starts fiddling with overlays.

    >
    >
    > I found emerge very easy to use from the command line, and really liked
    > the offerings. I just don't think there's much of a requirement for a
    > GUI. Unless, of course, Gentoo were more newbie friendly in general,
    > something which is anathema amongst the developers.
    >


    I have no idea what "more newbie friendly" means specifically.
    One possibility might be to have Porthole be able to display
    the Gentoo Handbook, perhaps.

    The 2008.8 LiveCD throws the user right at an XFCE environment,
    which is fairly friendly, but I can't say I'm a newbie; it's
    been way too long... ;-)

    >
    > -Thufir



    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #104392:
    for(int i = 0; i < 1000000; i++) sleep(0);
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  3. Re: Automatix? Lets all invent the same thing.....

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Homer

    wrote
    on Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:19:26 +0100
    :
    > Verily I say unto thee, that Sinister Midget spake thusly:
    >> On 2008-07-09, Erik Funkenbusch
    >> claimed:
    >>> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:22:32 +0100, Homer wrote:

    >
    >>>> No installation experience from /Windows/ will meet the ability
    >>>> for a /Linux/ user to type "sudo yum -y update", and within
    >>>> seconds have his entire OS, and every application on it, updated
    >>>> or installed.
    >>>
    >>> I have never administered a Linux system where that was true.

    >
    > Well then you're clearly doing something wrong.


    An interesting question, and one I can't answer mostly because
    Gentoo takes hours to upgrade in many cases...mostly because
    the source code is compiled locally. Other than that,
    'sudo emerge --update world' is about as simple. ;-)

    >
    >>> I have always had to have some software that was installed as
    >>> tarball

    >
    > I'd suggest that's just you being awkward, rather than utilising the
    > choices available through the distro's repository.
    >
    > Have you actually /looked/ at the number and scope of packages available
    > in today's typical GNU/Linux repos?


    $ find /usr/portage -name metadata.xml | wc
    12937 12937 459016
    $

    There's roughly one metadata.xml per portage
    subsubdirectory, but multiple .ebuild files (one per
    available version). It's probably not an exact count,
    though (this tree needs to be synced; I tend to do that
    once a week or so) -- but it's close.

    >
    >>> had to be hand reconfigured

    >
    > The only time I ever need to change packages' configurations, is when
    > performing a dist-upgrade (and not always then), since vendors tend to
    > reserve pushing major package version upgrades for the next version of
    > the distribution. This is why vendors usually recommend performing clean
    > installs of distro upgrades. Debian seems to be particularly adept at
    > making that unnecessary, somehow.


    Gentoo's not that bad, either, though some perturbations are fun;
    the X switchover was probably the worst.

    >
    > Certainly this particular corner case is no more or less true with Linux
    > than with Windows, except that in the case of Linux one gets to keep the
    > installed /packages/ as well as one's data.


    And even if one *switches distros*, Linux distros are
    pretty good at allowing one to keep one's data if one puts
    it in a /home partition.

    >
    >>> which means that automatic update will not work with that software.

    >
    > Well naturally if you're going to deliberate break the package manifest
    > then you're also going to make its maintenance difficult.
    >
    > Perhaps you aught to review your methods.
    >
    >>> Things like custom installed codecs on a typical system will also
    >>> be problematic for users.

    >
    > What "custom codecs"? Aren't the 378 codecs provided by MPlayer
    > (technically libavcodec) enough for you?
    >
    >> Whereas, using Winders 100% of everything is updated from a single
    >> point, with no configuration problems to speak of, and definitely no
    >> buggy patches.
    >>
    >> Well, except ...

    >
    > ... pretty much everything.
    >
    > Yes, Fuddie is clutching at straws (or is that Straw Men?).
    >


    Not to mention that Windows doesn't update diddly squat if
    the software isn't from Microsoft anyway. That's up to the
    individual vendors, of which Firefox and Java have their
    own update maintenance, on Windows. (On Gentoo, they're part
    of the offered packages and updated by the above emerge. Ditto
    presumably for Fedora, Debian, and SuSE.)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Windows. Because it's not a question of if.
    It's a question of when.
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  4. Re: Automatix? Lets all invent the same thing.....

    On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:19:26 +0100, Homer wrote:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that Sinister Midget spake thusly:
    >> On 2008-07-09, Erik Funkenbusch
    >> claimed:
    >>> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:22:32 +0100, Homer wrote:

    >
    >>>> No installation experience from /Windows/ will meet the ability
    >>>> for a /Linux/ user to type "sudo yum -y update", and within
    >>>> seconds have his entire OS, and every application on it, updated
    >>>> or installed.
    >>>
    >>> I have never administered a Linux system where that was true.

    >
    > Well then you're clearly doing something wrong.


    Linux advocate tactic 69.352-.01 Blame the user


    >>> I have always had to have some software that was installed as
    >>> tarball

    >
    > I'd suggest that's just you being awkward, rather than utilising the
    > choices available through the distro's repository.


    And what if the program isn't available in the distros suppository?

    This is common for Pan, the special libraries that were needed for Pan.
    Also common for any of the digital audio stuff like Jack, Ardour
    (especially) and the various Jack components and plugins like Jamin etc.



    > Have you actually /looked/ at the number and scope of packages available
    > in today's typical GNU/Linux repos?


    Yea..
    They have every editor known to mankind but lack in other areas.
    Things have gotten better though but it still depends on the distribution.

    Of course then the Linux Loon advocate, in this case *you* [Homer]
    will tell the user to pick another distribution.


    >>> had to be hand reconfigured

    >
    > The only time I ever need to change packages' configurations, is when
    > performing a dist-upgrade (and not always then), since vendors tend to
    > reserve pushing major package version upgrades for the next version of
    > the distribution. This is why vendors usually recommend performing clean
    > installs of distro upgrades. Debian seems to be particularly adept at
    > making that unnecessary, somehow.


    Linux Loon Advocote tactic 4832.9791-.02 Let the user know it happened to
    you *once* so that your story becomes more believable.


    > Certainly this particular corner case is no more or less true with Linux
    > than with Windows, except that in the case of Linux one gets to keep the
    > installed /packages/ as well as one's data.


    Linux Loon advocate tactic 2710982.04-001 Bring Windows in to the
    discussion when you have a weak argument for defending Linux.



    >>> which means that automatic update will not work with that software.

    >
    > Well naturally if you're going to deliberate break the package manifest
    > then you're also going to make its maintenance difficult.


    Configuring the program is not breaking the package manifest.

    > Perhaps you aught to review your methods.


    Perhaps you should spend some time in the real world instead of with your
    head up Schestowitz's ass.


    >>> Things like custom installed codecs on a typical system will also
    >>> be problematic for users.

    >
    > What "custom codecs"? Aren't the 378 codecs provided by MPlayer
    > (technically libavcodec) enough for you?


    Depends on the distro.
    Last time I installed PCLinux OS I had to go to another site to get the
    Win32 codecs and pacakges were not available for PCLinuxOS so I had to use
    a tarball.

    This may have changed I don't know but some distributions don't include the
    Win32 CODECS because they don't condone stealing them and leave it up to
    the slimy Linux user to steal them.

    Same thing for the video codec to play encrypted DVDs.

    Linux users just love to steal that one, depending upon what part of the
    earth they live in of course because it *is* legal some places.


    >> Whereas, using Winders 100% of everything is updated from a single
    >> point, with no configuration problems to speak of, and definitely no
    >> buggy patches.
    >>
    >> Well, except ...

    >
    > ... pretty much everything.
    >
    > Yes, Fuddie is clutching at straws (or is that Straw Men?).



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

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