[News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software - Linux

This is a discussion on [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software - Linux ; -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It's not the Gates, it's the bars ,----[ Quote ] | To pay so much attention to Bill Gates' retirement is missing the point. What | really matters is not Gates, nor Microsoft, but ...

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Thread: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

  1. [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    It's not the Gates, it's the bars

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | To pay so much attention to Bill Gates' retirement is missing the point. What
    | really matters is not Gates, nor Microsoft, but the unethical system of
    | restrictions that Microsoft, like many other software companies, imposes on
    | its customers.
    |
    | [...]
    |
    | But Gates didn't invent proprietary software, and thousands of other
    | companies do the same thing. It's wrong, no matter who does it.
    |
    | Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, and the rest, offer you software that gives them
    | power over you. A change in executives or companies is not important. What we
    | need to change is this system.
    |
    | That's what the free software movement is all about. "Free" refers to
    | freedom: we write and publish software that users are free to share and
    | modify.
    |
    | We do this systematically, for freedom's sake; some of us paid, many as
    | volunteers. We already have complete free operating systems, including
    | GNU/Linux.
    `----

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7487060.stm


    Recent:

    The Gates Transition

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | In an interview with the BBC which is being widely linked, I recently
    | said “claims by Microsoft that people were buying their software because it
    | was good are pretty self-serving.” The BBC didn’t run the rest of what I said
    | about Microsoft’s success, probably because they were looking to find someone
    | to set up opposite Bill. Fine. These days we have blogs, so here’s my
    | unfiltered side of the story.
    `----

    http://blog.kapor.com/?p=85


    Gates chose the right time to leave Microsoft

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | I can remember reporting on a leaked internal memo that Bill Gates issued to
    | Microsoft staff in 1995 which was a literal call to arms to fight both
    | Netscape (not mentioned by name) and the onset of the Internet. It was
    | obvious to Gates that the cards were on the table and the Internet was
    | holding all the Aces.
    |
    | [...]
    |
    | Gates also watched as Microsoft's last great Wintel project Vista turned into
    | a disappointing flop, with many users and pundits believing that it offered
    | no significant improvements over Windows XP. Similar things could said for
    | Office 2007.
    `----

    http://www.itwire.com/content/view/19100/1023/


    Is Microsoft Aura Fading?

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Yesterday's early relief rally reversed, and Microsoft's value has now fallen
    | by more than $30 billion since it unveiled its bid for Yahoo on February 1.
    `---- * * * * *^^^^^^^^^^^

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1210...googlenews_wsj


    Microsoft stock drops amid slumping sales

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Microsoft Corp., whose Windows software dominates the personal-computer
    | market, fell 6.2 percent Fridayin Nasdaq trading after sales slumped, casting
    | doubt on whether PC demand can hold up in a slowing economy. The software
    | maker reported a 24 percent drop in sales of Windows last quarter and
    | forecast earnings that may miss analysts' estimates.
    |
    | [...]
    |
    | "The risk is that Linux gets a foothold and then affects their long-term
    | * * *^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    | revenue significantly."
    `----

    http://www.sltrib.com/business/ci_9061263
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  2. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

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    ____/ Homer on Friday 04 July 2008 05:57 : \____

    > Wow!
    >
    > The MSBBC gives voice to Stallman.
    >
    > And even publishes the article under cc-by-nd
    > (at Stallman's insistence I bet).
    >
    > Gates really /has/ left the building.


    Well, Huggers is still in that other building.

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | Useless fact: 21978 x 4 = 21978 backwards
    http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    11:00:02 up 80 days, 9:12, 5 users, load average: 1.23, 1.16, 1.07
    http://iuron.com - help build a non-profit search engine
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  3. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    Alexander Terekhov writes:

    > RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about the
    > fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They don’t
    > care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even means. All
    > that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’ sounds even
    > funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one day Linux will
    > win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have Microsoft-like
    > dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy Linux and the
    > benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes Windows (or OS X,
    > Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are really that
    > inferior, then people will move over and then Windows will become less
    > popular. If not then the Open-Source community has no one to blame but
    > themselves


    hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons need
    to reconsider their extreme positions.

  4. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and UnethicalSoftware

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >
    >> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about the
    >> fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They don’t
    >> care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even means.
    >> All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’ sounds
    >> even funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one day Linux
    >> will win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have Microsoft-like
    >> dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy Linux and the
    >> benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes Windows (or OS X,
    >> Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are really that
    >> inferior, then people will move over and then Windows will become less
    >> popular. If not then the Open-Source community has no one to blame but
    >> themselves

    >
    > hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons need
    > to reconsider their extreme positions.


    You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that has
    historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed or
    illegal, to kill competition.

    I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to throw
    roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other software.



    --
    Rick

  5. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    Rick writes:

    > On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >>
    >>> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about the
    >>> fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They don’t
    >>> care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even means.
    >>> All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’ sounds
    >>> even funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one day Linux
    >>> will win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have Microsoft-like
    >>> dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy Linux and the
    >>> benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes Windows (or OS X,
    >>> Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are really that
    >>> inferior, then people will move over and then Windows will become less
    >>> popular. If not then the Open-Source community has no one to blame but
    >>> themselves

    >>
    >> hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons need
    >> to reconsider their extreme positions.

    >
    > You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that has
    > historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed or
    > illegal, to kill competition.


    No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the market
    over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a market
    economy.

    >
    > I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    > even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to throw
    > roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other software.


    You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on Windows
    and Mac. Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial
    cousins. Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?


    --
    "Give it up because going on the offensive, and you are quite offensive, is
    not going to cover up your trolling and nym shifting blunders no matter now
    many times you re-post the same text."
    -- "Moshe Goldfarb." in comp.os.linux.advocacy

  6. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and UnethicalSoftware

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >>>
    >>>> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about the
    >>>> fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They don’t
    >>>> care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even means.
    >>>> All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’ sounds
    >>>> even funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one day
    >>>> Linux will win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have
    >>>> Microsoft-like dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy
    >>>> Linux and the benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes
    >>>> Windows (or OS X, Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are
    >>>> really that inferior, then people will move over and then Windows
    >>>> will become less popular. If not then the Open-Source community has
    >>>> no one to blame but themselves
    >>>
    >>> hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons
    >>> need to reconsider their extreme positions.

    >>
    >> You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that has
    >> historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed or
    >> illegal, to kill competition.

    >
    > No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the market
    > over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a market
    > economy.


    It is called illegally maintained monopoly.

    >
    >
    >> I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    >> even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to throw
    >> roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other software.

    >
    > You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    > those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on Windows
    > and Mac.


    The lack of non-MS commercial software is due to lack of installed user
    base.


    > Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial
    > cousins.


    Possibly. I find that for me, for most people at work, and most people I
    know, most "OSS clones' as you insultingly put it, are at least as
    functional as commercial software. And yes, I know that you will dismiss
    us as having "minimal" needs. Many Cities, States, governments,
    companies, artists, engineers and users disagree with you.

    > Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?


    You might ask Apple. Microsoft was found to have acted illegally when it
    threatened Apple with stopping production on Office.

    Photoshop was an Apple staple before it appeared on Windows, which put
    Apple in the leadership position in desktop publishing graphics for
    years. Personally, I Photoshop and desktop publishing kept the Mac and
    Apple alive as much as anything else in its "dark years" immediately
    after killing the Apple //.

    Also, Apple has resorted to writing a great deal of its own software such
    as iWork and iLife.

    And, it has been in Microsoft's own interest to keep Apple alive. They
    could always point to Apple when whining they didn't have monopoly power.

    --
    Rick

  7. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and UnethicalSoftware

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >>>
    >>>> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about the
    >>>> fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They don’t
    >>>> care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even means.
    >>>> All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’ sounds
    >>>> even funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one day
    >>>> Linux will win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have
    >>>> Microsoft-like dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy
    >>>> Linux and the benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes
    >>>> Windows (or OS X, Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are
    >>>> really that inferior, then people will move over and then Windows
    >>>> will become less popular. If not then the Open-Source community has
    >>>> no one to blame but themselves
    >>>
    >>> hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons
    >>> need to reconsider their extreme positions.

    >>
    >> You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that has
    >> historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed or
    >> illegal, to kill competition.

    >
    > No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the market
    > over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a market
    > economy.


    It is called illegally maintained monopoly.

    >
    >
    >> I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    >> even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to throw
    >> roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other software.

    >
    > You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    > those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on Windows
    > and Mac.


    The lack of non-MS commercial software is due to lack of installed user
    base.


    > Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial
    > cousins.


    Possibly. I find that for me, for most people at work, and most people I
    know, most "OSS clones' as you insultingly put it, are at least as
    functional as commercial software. And yes, I know that you will dismiss
    us as having "minimal" needs. Many Cities, States, governments,
    companies, artists, engineers and users disagree with you.

    > Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?


    You might ask Apple. Microsoft was found to have acted illegally when it
    threatened Apple with stopping production on Office.

    Photoshop was an Apple staple before it appeared on Windows, which put
    Apple in the leadership position in desktop publishing graphics for
    years. Personally, I Photoshop and desktop publishing kept the Mac and
    Apple alive as much as anything else in its "dark years" immediately
    after killing the Apple //.

    Also, Apple has resorted to writing a great deal of its own software such
    as iWork and iLife.

    And, it has been in Microsoft's own interest to keep Apple alive. They
    could always point to Apple when whining they didn't have monopoly power.

    --
    Rick

  8. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    Rick writes:

    > On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Rick writes:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about the
    >>>>> fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They don’t
    >>>>> care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even means.
    >>>>> All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’ sounds
    >>>>> even funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one day
    >>>>> Linux will win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have
    >>>>> Microsoft-like dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy
    >>>>> Linux and the benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes
    >>>>> Windows (or OS X, Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are
    >>>>> really that inferior, then people will move over and then Windows
    >>>>> will become less popular. If not then the Open-Source community has
    >>>>> no one to blame but themselves
    >>>>
    >>>> hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons
    >>>> need to reconsider their extreme positions.
    >>>
    >>> You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that has
    >>> historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed or
    >>> illegal, to kill competition.

    >>
    >> No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the market
    >> over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a market
    >> economy.

    >
    > It is called illegally maintained monopoly.
    >


    What monopoly? What are you talking about? It's like you pick up a few
    phrases and then use them like a looping tape. How do they have a
    monopoly when I can get Linux or Mac?

    >>
    >>
    >>> I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    >>> even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to throw
    >>> roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other software.

    >>
    >> You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    >> those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on Windows
    >> and Mac.

    >
    > The lack of non-MS commercial software is due to lack of installed user
    > base.


    It's a vicious circle.

    >
    >
    >> Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial
    >> cousins.

    >
    > Possibly. I find that for me, for most people at work, and most people I
    > know, most "OSS clones' as you insultingly put it, are at least as
    > functional as commercial software. And yes, I know that you will dismiss
    > us as having "minimal" needs. Many Cities, States, governments,
    > companies, artists, engineers and users disagree with you.


    Fine. They may. But I can think of almost NO OSS Desktop GUI SW which
    does not have a better commercial equivalent. Feel free to quote
    examples.

    I do us emacs a lot. I use gimp a lot. I use OO a lot (and hate
    it). Amarok is a mess. KDE Torrent is excellent. Synaptic is
    great. Firefox rocks. What more can I say? I dont hate OSS. I just find
    too much of it is inconsistent and half arsed. Some is very good.

    >
    >> Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?

    >
    > You might ask Apple. Microsoft was found to have acted illegally when it
    > threatened Apple with stopping production on Office.
    >
    > Photoshop was an Apple staple before it appeared on Windows, which put
    > Apple in the leadership position in desktop publishing graphics for
    > years. Personally, I Photoshop and desktop publishing kept the Mac and
    > Apple alive as much as anything else in its "dark years" immediately
    > after killing the Apple //.
    >
    > Also, Apple has resorted to writing a great deal of its own software such
    > as iWork and iLife.
    >
    > And, it has been in Microsoft's own interest to keep Apple alive. They
    > could always point to Apple when whining they didn't have monopoly
    > power.


    You need to readjust your tin foil hat. You and your colleagues use
    Linux. I use Linux for ALL my professional work at the moment. There is
    nothing stopping us using it. There is nothing stopping others other
    than ingrained legacy and the cost of transferring - see Munich for
    details.

  9. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and UnethicalSoftware

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:49:14 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Rick writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about
    >>>>>> the fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They
    >>>>>> don’t care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even
    >>>>>> means. All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’
    >>>>>> sounds even funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one
    >>>>>> day Linux will win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have
    >>>>>> Microsoft-like dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy
    >>>>>> Linux and the benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes
    >>>>>> Windows (or OS X, Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products
    >>>>>> are really that inferior, then people will move over and then
    >>>>>> Windows will become less popular. If not then the Open-Source
    >>>>>> community has no one to blame but themselves
    >>>>>
    >>>>> hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons
    >>>>> need to reconsider their extreme positions.
    >>>>
    >>>> You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that has
    >>>> historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed or
    >>>> illegal, to kill competition.
    >>>
    >>> No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the
    >>> market over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a
    >>> market economy.

    >>
    >> It is called illegally maintained monopoly.
    >>
    >>

    > What monopoly? What are you talking about? It's like you pick up a few
    > phrases and then use them like a looping tape. How do they have a
    > monopoly when I can get Linux or Mac?


    The effects of an illegally maintained monopoly:

    United States Court of Appeals
    FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
    Argued February 26 and 27, 2001
    Decided June 28, 2001
    No. 00–5212
    UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
    APPELLEE
    v.
    MICROSOFT CORPORATION,
    APPELLANT


    Microsoft argues that the District Court incorrectly defined
    the relevant market. It also claims that there is no barrier to
    entry in that market. Alternatively, Microsoft argues that
    because the software industry is uniquely dynamic, direct
    proof, rather than circumstantial evidence, more appropriately
    indicates whether it possesses monopoly power. Rejecting
    each argument, we uphold the District Court’s finding of
    monopoly power in its entirety.

    >
    >
    >>>
    >>>> I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    >>>> even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to
    >>>> throw roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other
    >>>> software.
    >>>
    >>> You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    >>> those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on Windows
    >>> and Mac.

    >>
    >> The lack of non-MS commercial software is due to lack of installed user
    >> base.

    >
    > It's a vicious circle.
    >
    >
    >>
    >>> Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial cousins.

    >>
    >> Possibly. I find that for me, for most people at work, and most people
    >> I know, most "OSS clones' as you insultingly put it, are at least as
    >> functional as commercial software. And yes, I know that you will
    >> dismiss us as having "minimal" needs. Many Cities, States, governments,
    >> companies, artists, engineers and users disagree with you.

    >
    > Fine. They may. But I can think of almost NO OSS Desktop GUI SW which
    > does not have a better commercial equivalent. Feel free to quote
    > examples.


    "a better commercial equivalent" is somewhat subjective. And why isn't
    "equivalent" or "good enough for the user" a good enough criteria?

    Open Office is every bit as good for millions of users as MS Office.

    >
    > I do us emacs a lot. I use gimp a lot. I use OO a lot (and hate it).


    Don't use it, then. Try KOffice, or the "Gnome Office" apps.

    > Amarok is a mess.


    .... in your opinion.

    > KDE Torrent is excellent. Synaptic is great. Firefox
    > rocks. What more can I say? I dont hate OSS. I just find too much of it
    > is inconsistent and half arsed. Some is very good.


    Wow. Is it now your position that all commercial software is consistent
    and great?

    >
    >
    >>> Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?

    >>
    >> You might ask Apple. Microsoft was found to have acted illegally when
    >> it threatened Apple with stopping production on Office.
    >>
    >> Photoshop was an Apple staple before it appeared on Windows, which put
    >> Apple in the leadership position in desktop publishing graphics for
    >> years. Personally, I Photoshop and desktop publishing kept the Mac and
    >> Apple alive as much as anything else in its "dark years" immediately
    >> after killing the Apple //.
    >>
    >> Also, Apple has resorted to writing a great deal of its own software
    >> such as iWork and iLife.
    >>
    >> And, it has been in Microsoft's own interest to keep Apple alive. They
    >> could always point to Apple when whining they didn't have monopoly
    >> power.

    >
    > You need to readjust your tin foil hat.


    You need to readjust your attitude.


    > You and your colleagues use Linux.


    Actually, most of my colleagues don't.


    > I use Linux for ALL my professional work at the moment. There is
    > nothing stopping us using it. There is nothing stopping others other
    > than ingrained legacy and the cost of transferring - see Munich for
    > details.


    See the anti-trust actions against Microsoft for details.

    --
    Rick

  10. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    Rick writes:

    > On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:49:14 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Rick writes:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Rick writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about
    >>>>>>> the fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They
    >>>>>>> don’t care. They don’t even know what the hell closed source even
    >>>>>>> means. All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds funny, ‘GNU/Linux’
    >>>>>>> sounds even funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one
    >>>>>>> day Linux will win the ‘war’ of Operating Systems and will have
    >>>>>>> Microsoft-like dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy
    >>>>>>> Linux and the benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes
    >>>>>>> Windows (or OS X, Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products
    >>>>>>> are really that inferior, then people will move over and then
    >>>>>>> Windows will become less popular. If not then the Open-Source
    >>>>>>> community has no one to blame but themselves
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons
    >>>>>> need to reconsider their extreme positions.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that has
    >>>>> historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed or
    >>>>> illegal, to kill competition.
    >>>>
    >>>> No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the
    >>>> market over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a
    >>>> market economy.
    >>>
    >>> It is called illegally maintained monopoly.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> What monopoly? What are you talking about? It's like you pick up a few
    >> phrases and then use them like a looping tape. How do they have a
    >> monopoly when I can get Linux or Mac?

    >
    > The effects of an illegally maintained monopoly:
    >
    > United States Court of Appeals
    > FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
    > Argued February 26 and 27, 2001
    > Decided June 28, 2001
    > No. 00–5212
    > UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
    > APPELLEE
    > v.
    > MICROSOFT CORPORATION,
    > APPELLANT
    >
    >
    >
    > Microsoft argues that the District Court incorrectly defined
    > the relevant market. It also claims that there is no barrier to
    > entry in that market. Alternatively, Microsoft argues that
    > because the software industry is uniquely dynamic, direct
    > proof, rather than circumstantial evidence, more appropriately
    > indicates whether it possesses monopoly power. Rejecting
    > each argument, we uphold the District Court’s finding of
    > monopoly power in its entirety.
    >
    >
    >
    >>
    >>
    >>>>
    >>>>> I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    >>>>> even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to
    >>>>> throw roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other
    >>>>> software.
    >>>>
    >>>> You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    >>>> those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on Windows
    >>>> and Mac.
    >>>
    >>> The lack of non-MS commercial software is due to lack of installed user
    >>> base.

    >>
    >> It's a vicious circle.
    >>
    >>
    >>>
    >>>> Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial cousins.
    >>>
    >>> Possibly. I find that for me, for most people at work, and most people
    >>> I know, most "OSS clones' as you insultingly put it, are at least as
    >>> functional as commercial software. And yes, I know that you will
    >>> dismiss us as having "minimal" needs. Many Cities, States, governments,
    >>> companies, artists, engineers and users disagree with you.

    >>
    >> Fine. They may. But I can think of almost NO OSS Desktop GUI SW which
    >> does not have a better commercial equivalent. Feel free to quote
    >> examples.

    >
    > "a better commercial equivalent" is somewhat subjective. And why isn't
    > "equivalent" or "good enough for the user" a good enough criteria?
    >
    > Open Office is every bit as good for millions of users as MS Office.


    "Good enough" is rarely an criteria people use.

    >
    >>
    >> I do us emacs a lot. I use gimp a lot. I use OO a lot (and hate it).

    >
    > Don't use it, then. Try KOffice, or the "Gnome Office" apps.


    KOffice? On Gnome. No. As for Gnome Office - another bunch of half arsed
    wannabe. Pity all the resources dont band together and make ONE killer
    Office replacement. But no. You think choice between 3 crap versions is
    better than one good one.

    >
    >> Amarok is a mess.

    >
    > ... in your opinion.


    In my justified opinion which I posted with examples and backup. You
    just say "meets my needs". You're a liar I think.

    >
    >> KDE Torrent is excellent. Synaptic is great. Firefox
    >> rocks. What more can I say? I dont hate OSS. I just find too much of it
    >> is inconsistent and half arsed. Some is very good.

    >
    > Wow. Is it now your position that all commercial software is consistent
    > and great?


    Er, no. Why do you ask?

    >
    >>
    >>
    >>>> Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?
    >>>
    >>> You might ask Apple. Microsoft was found to have acted illegally when
    >>> it threatened Apple with stopping production on Office.
    >>>
    >>> Photoshop was an Apple staple before it appeared on Windows, which put
    >>> Apple in the leadership position in desktop publishing graphics for
    >>> years. Personally, I Photoshop and desktop publishing kept the Mac and
    >>> Apple alive as much as anything else in its "dark years" immediately
    >>> after killing the Apple //.
    >>>
    >>> Also, Apple has resorted to writing a great deal of its own software
    >>> such as iWork and iLife.
    >>>
    >>> And, it has been in Microsoft's own interest to keep Apple alive. They
    >>> could always point to Apple when whining they didn't have monopoly
    >>> power.

    >>
    >> You need to readjust your tin foil hat.

    >
    > You need to readjust your attitude.
    >
    >
    >> You and your colleagues use Linux.

    >
    > Actually, most of my colleagues don't.
    >
    >
    >> I use Linux for ALL my professional work at the moment. There is
    >> nothing stopping us using it. There is nothing stopping others other
    >> than ingrained legacy and the cost of transferring - see Munich for
    >> details.

    >
    > See the anti-trust actions against Microsoft for details.


    --
    - "Actually XP *is* getting press, but most of it is along the lines of
    "we're going to wait and see", in other words not very good."
    comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they put the lunacy in advocacy

  11. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and UnethicalSoftware

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 17:52:18 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:49:14 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Rick writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Rick writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users don’t care about
    >>>>>>>> the fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source.
    >>>>>>>> They don’t care. They don’t even know what the hell closed
    >>>>>>>> source even means. All that they know is that ‘Linux’ sounds
    >>>>>>>> funny, ‘GNU/Linux’ sounds even funnier, and they are familiar
    >>>>>>>> with Windows. Maybe one day Linux will win the ‘war’ of
    >>>>>>>> Operating Systems and will have Microsoft-like dominance. I,
    >>>>>>>> personally, welcome the day. I enjoy Linux and the benefits of
    >>>>>>>> it, but I do not hate everyone who likes Windows (or OS X,
    >>>>>>>> Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are really that
    >>>>>>>> inferior, then people will move over and then Windows will become
    >>>>>>>> less popular. If not then the Open-Source community has no one
    >>>>>>>> to blame but themselves
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons
    >>>>>>> need to reconsider their extreme positions.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> You need to recognize Microsoft for what it is... a company that
    >>>>>> has historically done whatever it needed to do, legal, under handed
    >>>>>> or illegal, to kill competition.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the
    >>>>> market over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a
    >>>>> market economy.
    >>>>
    >>>> It is called illegally maintained monopoly.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> What monopoly? What are you talking about? It's like you pick up a few
    >>> phrases and then use them like a looping tape. How do they have a
    >>> monopoly when I can get Linux or Mac?

    >>
    >> The effects of an illegally maintained monopoly:
    >>
    >> United States Court of Appeals
    >> FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
    >> Argued February 26 and 27, 2001
    >> Decided June 28, 2001
    >> No. 00–5212
    >> UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
    >> APPELLEE
    >> v.
    >> MICROSOFT CORPORATION,
    >> APPELLANT
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Microsoft argues that the District Court incorrectly defined the
    >> relevant market. It also claims that there is no barrier to entry in
    >> that market. Alternatively, Microsoft argues that because the software
    >> industry is uniquely dynamic, direct proof, rather than circumstantial
    >> evidence, more appropriately indicates whether it possesses monopoly
    >> power. Rejecting each argument, we uphold the District Court’s finding
    >> of monopoly power in its entirety.
    >>
    >>


    Thanks for your tacit agreement of Microsoft's monopoly power.

    >>
    >>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>>> I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people
    >>>>>> might even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft
    >>>>>> continues to throw roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to
    >>>>>> try other software.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    >>>>> those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on
    >>>>> Windows and Mac.
    >>>>
    >>>> The lack of non-MS commercial software is due to lack of installed
    >>>> user base.
    >>>
    >>> It's a vicious circle.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>> Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial
    >>>>> cousins.
    >>>>
    >>>> Possibly. I find that for me, for most people at work, and most
    >>>> people I know, most "OSS clones' as you insultingly put it, are at
    >>>> least as functional as commercial software. And yes, I know that you
    >>>> will dismiss us as having "minimal" needs. Many Cities, States,
    >>>> governments, companies, artists, engineers and users disagree with
    >>>> you.
    >>>
    >>> Fine. They may. But I can think of almost NO OSS Desktop GUI SW which
    >>> does not have a better commercial equivalent. Feel free to quote
    >>> examples.

    >>
    >> "a better commercial equivalent" is somewhat subjective. And why isn't
    >> "equivalent" or "good enough for the user" a good enough criteria?
    >>
    >> Open Office is every bit as good for millions of users as MS Office.

    >
    > "Good enough" is rarely an criteria people use.


    I disagree.

    >>> I do us emacs a lot. I use gimp a lot. I use OO a lot (and hate it).

    >>
    >> Don't use it, then. Try KOffice, or the "Gnome Office" apps.

    >
    > KOffice? On Gnome. No.


    Why not?

    > As for Gnome Office - another bunch of half arsed
    > wannabe. Pity all the resources dont band together and make ONE killer
    > Office replacement. But no. You think choice between 3 crap versions is
    > better than one good one.


    No, I don't think choice between 3 crap versions is better than one good
    one.

    And please tell us what a killer Office replacement would offer. And
    which "Office" do you mean?

    >
    >
    >>> Amarok is a mess.

    >>
    >> ... in your opinion.

    >
    > In my justified opinion which I posted with examples and backup. You
    > just say "meets my needs".


    It does. It, apparently, at least meets the needs of many people, and
    apparently exceeds the needs of others.

    > You're a liar I think.


    You're a liar I think.

    >
    >
    >>> KDE Torrent is excellent. Synaptic is great. Firefox rocks. What more
    >>> can I say? I dont hate OSS. I just find too much of it is inconsistent
    >>> and half arsed. Some is very good.

    >>
    >> Wow. Is it now your position that all commercial software is consistent
    >> and great?

    >
    > Er, no. Why do you ask?


    I'm just wondering why you hold OSS apps to higher standards than OSS
    apps.


    >>>>> Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?
    >>>>
    >>>> You might ask Apple. Microsoft was found to have acted illegally when
    >>>> it threatened Apple with stopping production on Office.
    >>>>
    >>>> Photoshop was an Apple staple before it appeared on Windows, which
    >>>> put Apple in the leadership position in desktop publishing graphics
    >>>> for years. Personally, I Photoshop and desktop publishing kept the
    >>>> Mac and Apple alive as much as anything else in its "dark years"
    >>>> immediately after killing the Apple //.
    >>>>
    >>>> Also, Apple has resorted to writing a great deal of its own software
    >>>> such as iWork and iLife.
    >>>>
    >>>> And, it has been in Microsoft's own interest to keep Apple alive.
    >>>> They could always point to Apple when whining they didn't have
    >>>> monopoly power.
    >>>
    >>> You need to readjust your tin foil hat.

    >>
    >> You need to readjust your attitude.
    >>
    >>
    >>> You and your colleagues use Linux.

    >>
    >> Actually, most of my colleagues don't.
    >>
    >>
    >>> I use Linux for ALL my professional work at the moment. There is
    >>> nothing stopping us using it. There is nothing stopping others other
    >>> than ingrained legacy and the cost of transferring - see Munich for
    >>> details.

    >>
    >> See the anti-trust actions against Microsoft for details.


    --
    Rick

  12. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:00:37 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > Alexander Terekhov writes:
    >
    >> RMS needs to wake up and realize that most users dont care about the
    >> fact that Microsoft and their products are closed source. They dont
    >> care. They dont even know what the hell closed source even means. All
    >> that they know is that Linux sounds funny, GNU/Linux sounds even
    >> funnier, and they are familiar with Windows. Maybe one day Linux will
    >> win the war of Operating Systems and will have Microsoft-like
    >> dominance. I, personally, welcome the day. I enjoy Linux and the
    >> benefits of it, but I do not hate everyone who likes Windows (or OS X,
    >> Solaris, etc). If Microsoft and their products are really that
    >> inferior, then people will move over and then Windows will become less
    >> popular. If not then the Open-Source community has no one to blame but
    >> themselves

    >
    > hear, hear. I agree with that final paragraph 100%. The COLA loons need
    > to reconsider their extreme positions.


    +100
    I agree totally as well....

    The more the Linux advocates act like paranoid loons, completely out of
    touch with the real public, the less chance Linux has of becoming a
    competitor to Windows on the desktop.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  13. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and UnethicalSoftware


    Rick wrote:

    [... illegally maintained monopoly ...]

    > we uphold the District Court's finding of monopoly power in its entirety.


    http://www.capitalism.org/faq/monopolies.htm

    -------
    What is a monopoly?

    Today, a monopoly is defined as a single seller in a given industry
    (appropriately defined). There are massive problems with this definition
    which I will comment on below.

    Are not all monopolies harmful?

    Being a single seller, by itself, is not good, nor evil -- it depends on
    how one obtained that single-seller status. Did one obtain a monopoly by
    economic competition in the marketplace, or did one obtain it by
    political pull, i.e., lobbying? If such status is gained by competition
    in the free-market then the "monopoly" -- the successful business -- is
    good. If such status is gained by using the government, or Mafia, to
    force one's competition out of business, then the monopoly is evil. As
    all political intervention (initiation of force) in the marketplace is
    outlawed under capitalism, a harmful monopoly under capitalism is
    impossible. If one considers a monopoly by definition as intrinsically
    evil, then only "businesses" that obtain their market share by having
    their competition outlawed (as the U.S. Post Office does) can be called
    a monopoly.
    -------

    regards,
    alexander.

    --
    http://gng.z505.com/index.htm
    (GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can
    be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards
    too, whereas GNU cannot.)

  14. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:22:53 +0200, Hadron wrote:


    > No I do not need to recognise that. I recognise that they won the market
    > over and made deals to try and stay the leader. Its called a market
    > economy.


    People don't have the time to care about things like that because it does
    not directly effect them like say a corrupt Enron did.
    And even if the argument is made about quality of software, forced
    bundling, poor security etc, it still does not overshadow the fact that
    billions of people use MS software to earn Billions of dollars.

    People are concerned mostly with the end result and less so with the means
    to the end.

    >>
    >> I also do not hate people because they use Windows. Some people might
    >> even have a genuine need to do so. However Microsoft continues to throw
    >> roadblocks in the way of people that do wish to try other software.

    >
    > You use Linux. I use Linux. I dont see any "road blocks" other than
    > those due to legacy and, frankly, better quality desktop SW on Windows
    > and Mac. Most OSS clones are pretty poor compared to their commercial
    > cousins. Do these "road blocks" stop people using Macs? No?


    I see Linux DVD's included with the typical PC magazines all the time.
    Sales people know about Linux, even at the Circuit City, Best Buy level.
    Some hardware boxes have "Supports Linux" claims on them.
    etc....

    The truth is, people just don't like Linux.
    The reason is the applications and increasingly so the integration with
    personal multimedia products.

    These people don't want to go mounting their GPS as a "disk drive" and
    navigating to directories etc....
    They want to use the software that came with the product to plan trips,
    enter custom maps etc....
    The idea is to USE the GPS, not spend hours figuring out HOW to use the
    GPS.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  15. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and UnethicalSoftware

    "Rick" stated in post
    HtOdnUG-hsGKAPLVnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@supernews.com on 7/5/08 9:11 AM:

    >> KOffice? On Gnome. No.

    >
    > Why not?


    The K in KOffice indicates it is not a Gnome based program but a KDE
    program.

    It will work, of course, but not without fracturing the UI.


    --
    I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is to try to please
    everyone. -- Bill Cosby


  16. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software

    Hadron wrote:

    > Pity all the resources dont band together and make ONE killer
    > Office replacement.


    Well, as soon as you finish with Stalinux, you can write QuackOffice.
    --
    Regards,
    [tv]

    ....If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn?

    Owner/Proprietor, Cheesus Crust Pizza Company
    Good to the last supper

  17. Re: [News] RMS Responds to Media's Gates Obssession and Unethical Software


    "Rick" wrote in message
    news:HtOdnUu-hsH4DPLVnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@supernews.com...
    >
    >
    > Microsoft argues that the District Court incorrectly defined
    > the relevant market. It also claims that there is no barrier to
    > entry in that market. Alternatively, Microsoft argues that
    > because the software industry is uniquely dynamic, direct
    > proof, rather than circumstantial evidence, more appropriately
    > indicates whether it possesses monopoly power. Rejecting
    > each argument, we uphold the District Court’s finding of
    > monopoly power in its entirety.
    >
    >

    That finding was some time ago, now, and may be inaccurate for today.
    Remember it was based on Judge Jacksons finding of fact that Linux was a
    piece of **** that had no use on the desktop, which was the area that he
    found to be monopolized by Microsoft. Apple Macs were not relevant, he
    said, since they didn't use the Intel x86 architecture, which was another
    element of the Microsoft monopoly, i.e. "Intel-compatible desktop operating
    system software". If the trial were revisited today, the outcome might be
    much more favorable to Microsoft than it was. Even so, Microsoft didn't
    lose a tick.


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