* Ramon F Herrera peremptorily fired off this memo:

> "Early this decade, Microsoft weathered unrelenting criticism over a
> controversial set of technologies known as Palladium, which the
> company envisioned as creating a kind of secure vault to store
> passwords or medical records.
>
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9976658-7.html

Microsoft has "convinced a lot of hardware manufacturers to put the
chips in computers and they're in a lot of computers, but they're not
doing anything," Schneier said. "The question is what are they going
to do with the chips? How is Dell feeling these days?"

A Dell spokesman did not return a call seeking comment. Even Scott
Rotondo, president of the Trusted Computing Group, acknowledges that
the Trusted Platform Modules need more applications.

"A lot of them haven't been utilized fully and in some cases not at
all," said Rotondo, who works as a senior staff engineer in Solaris
Security Technologies at Sun. "The supporting infrastructure has been
slow to materialize."

"It stands to reason that there might be frustration on the part of
hardware manufacturers," Rotondo said, likening it to a "chicken and
egg situation."

"We need to really make use of these things before the hardware
manufacturers get tired and take them away," he added.

But:

Asked if the world has been spared a Microsoft digital rights
management machine, Anderson responded in an e-mail: "Wrong--WMP
(Windows Media Player) and the surrounding stuff that MS hopes will
enable it to do to the HDTV market what Apple did for MP3s."

Saffo joked: "It's like a horror movie; they'll be back."

--
A farm in the country side had several turkeys, it was known as the
house of seven gobbles.

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:52:51 -0700 (PDT), Ramon F Herrera wrote:

> "Early this decade, Microsoft weathered unrelenting criticism over a
> controversial set of technologies known as Palladium, which the
> company envisioned as creating a kind of secure vault to store
> passwords or medical records.
>
> Academics warned it could "support remote censorship" and blacklists,
> likening Palladium to the Soviet Union's efforts to register
> typewriters and fax machines. Privacy activists predicted it would
> hand Microsoft "an unprecedented level of control" over the world, and
> free software doyen Richard Stallman solemnly dubbed it "treacherous
> computing."
>
> [...]
>
> "It's like a horror movie; they'll be back."
>
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9976658-7.html
>
> -RFH

It might help to understand the difference between DRM and a Trust
Platform. DRM is intended to prevent copying, TP is intended to allow
users to control access to their own data.

Paladium was the most misunderstood technology ever. Yes, even more so
than Vista. Palladium was not DRM, they were totally different subsystems.

Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:52:51 -0700 (PDT), Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>
>> "Early this decade, Microsoft weathered unrelenting criticism over a
>> controversial set of technologies known as Palladium, which the
>> company envisioned as creating a kind of secure vault to store
>> passwords or medical records.
>>
>> Academics warned it could "support remote censorship" and blacklists,
>> likening Palladium to the Soviet Union's efforts to register
>> typewriters and fax machines. Privacy activists predicted it would
>> hand Microsoft "an unprecedented level of control" over the world, and
>> free software doyen Richard Stallman solemnly dubbed it "treacherous
>> computing."
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> "It's like a horror movie; they'll be back."
>>
>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9976658-7.html
>>
>> -RFH
>
> It might help to understand the difference between DRM and a Trust
> Platform. DRM is intended to prevent copying, TP is intended to allow
> users to control access to their own data.
>
> Paladium was the most misunderstood technology ever. Yes, even more so
> than Vista. Palladium was not DRM, they were totally different subsystems.

Don't all Apple Intel Macs have a Trusted Platform Module chip built-in?

Steve

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:06:51 -0700, Steve de Mena wrote:

> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:52:51 -0700 (PDT), Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>>
>>> "Early this decade, Microsoft weathered unrelenting criticism over a
>>> controversial set of technologies known as Palladium, which the
>>> company envisioned as creating a kind of secure vault to store
>>> passwords or medical records.
>>>
>>> Academics warned it could "support remote censorship" and blacklists,
>>> likening Palladium to the Soviet Union's efforts to register
>>> typewriters and fax machines. Privacy activists predicted it would
>>> hand Microsoft "an unprecedented level of control" over the world, and
>>> free software doyen Richard Stallman solemnly dubbed it "treacherous
>>> computing."
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> "It's like a horror movie; they'll be back."
>>>
>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9976658-7.html
>>>
>>> -RFH
>>
>> It might help to understand the difference between DRM and a Trust
>> Platform. DRM is intended to prevent copying, TP is intended to allow
>> users to control access to their own data.
>>
>> Paladium was the most misunderstood technology ever. Yes, even more so
>> than Vista. Palladium was not DRM, they were totally different subsystems.
>
> Don't all Apple Intel Macs have a Trusted Platform Module chip built-in?

Yep. All the TPM chip is is a hardware repository for encryption keys.
For example, it's hard to have a fully encrypted hard drive without
something like a TPM (otherwise you have to carry keys on a USB drive or CD
or something similar)

* Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

> Yep. All the TPM chip is is a hardware repository for encryption keys.
> For example, it's hard to have a fully encrypted hard drive without
> something like a TPM (otherwise you have to carry keys on a USB drive or CD
> or something similar)

Isn't the latter kind of what you'd want to do anyway, to keep the
machine safe when you're not around?

--
Bond reflected that good Americans were fine people and that most of them
seemed to come from Texas.
-- Ian Fleming, "Casino Royale"

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:18:17 -0400, Linonut wrote:

> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> Yep. All the TPM chip is is a hardware repository for encryption keys.
>> For example, it's hard to have a fully encrypted hard drive without
>> something like a TPM (otherwise you have to carry keys on a USB drive or CD
>> or something similar)
>
> Isn't the latter kind of what you'd want to do anyway, to keep the
> machine safe when you're not around?

No, because the TPM cannot be accessed to discover the keys, and with a
password hashed into the key, nobody can access it without either brute
forcing it or knowing your password.

Linonut wrote:
> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> Yep. All the TPM chip is is a hardware repository for encryption keys.
>> For example, it's hard to have a fully encrypted hard drive without
>> something like a TPM (otherwise you have to carry keys on a USB drive or CD
>> or something similar)
>
> Isn't the latter kind of what you'd want to do anyway, to keep the
> machine safe when you're not around?

I think there are two keys? I'm not sure.

Steve

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:28:47 +0100, Homer wrote:

> Verily I say unto thee, that Linonut spake thusly:
>> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>>> Yep. All the TPM chip is is a hardware repository for encryption
>>> keys.
>
> Oh dear, I thought it was only your protégé Smith who feigned obtuseness
> to obfuscate the truth. Here's the part you missed:

I didn't miss anything.

>

> Remote attestation allows changes to the user's computer to be detected
> by authorized parties. For examples, software companies can avoid users
> tampering with their software to circumvent technological protection
> measures.
>

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted...te_attestation
>
> This is an abuse of technology that violates consumers' fair-use rights,
> that might (for example) be used to prevent making (or subsequently
> using) backup copies of purchased media. IOW this is DRM.

The article is little more than a panic monging piece. Like most
technology, it can be used for good or evil. None of this contradicts what
I said. All the featurss the article mentions are there to support the key
repository.

That has nothing to do with the original point though. Palladium was *NOT*
DRM, and while the TPM can be used to create DRM, that's not Palladium was
or is.

In article <0f5ij5-48e.ln1@sky.matrix>, Homer
wrote:
> >> Yep. All the TPM chip is is a hardware repository for encryption
> >> keys.
>
> Oh dear, I thought it was only your protégé Smith who feigned obtuseness
> to obfuscate the truth. Here's the part you missed:
>
>

> Remote attestation allows changes to the user's computer to be detected
> by authorized parties. For examples, software companies can avoid users
> tampering with their software to circumvent technological protection
> measures.
>

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted...te_attestation
>
> This is an abuse of technology that violates consumers' fair-use rights,
> that might (for example) be used to prevent making (or subsequently
> using) backup copies of purchased media. IOW this is DRM.

Oh dear, I thought only Schestowitz could cut so misleadingly. You
listed one possible thing TPM could be used for. Why'd you leave out
all the rest? Such as:

* Identity theft protection,
* Preventing cheating in online games,
* Protecting from malware,
* Protecting biometric authentication data,
* Verifying remote applications for grid computing

Note that the last is very similar technically to the DRM example you
cite, yet is not a bad use. Indeed, it is a good use, as it would allow
for more efficient use of resources in projects like Folding at Home.

Basically, what you've done here is blame the tool because some people
*might* decide to misuse it. How far do you with to carry that
argument? Linux, for example, has been adopted by some very repressive
governments, because they don't want to rely on an OS from an American
company. Since Linux is being used to help repress people and violate
their human rights, does that you mean Linux is no longer acceptable?

--
--Tim Smith