[News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback - Linux

This is a discussion on [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback - Linux ; DFS wrote: > SomeBloke wrote: >> DFS wrote: >> >>> Roy Schestowitz wrote: >>> >>>> First Look: REALbasic 2007 Gets Linux Support >>>> >>>> ,----[ Quote ] >>>>> The Linux standard version is currently free, while the Linux >>>>> professional ...

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Thread: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

  1. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    DFS wrote:

    > SomeBloke wrote:
    >> DFS wrote:
    >>
    >>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> First Look: REALbasic 2007 Gets Linux Support
    >>>>
    >>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>> The Linux standard version is currently free, while the Linux
    >>>>> professional version costs $500. The Windows/Mac standard version
    >>>>> goes for $200 and the professional version sells for $500.
    >>>> `----
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=21287
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> There is no standard version. The personal version for Windows is
    >>> $100, while the personal version for Linux is free.
    >>>
    >>> It's more welfare for Linux.

    >>
    >> Go here... http://www.realsoftware.com/download/
    >>
    >> Versions for Linux, Windows and Mac freely available at no cost to
    >> download.

    >
    > Those are trial versions, ignoramus.
    >
    >
    >
    >> Registration is also available at no cost, just apply for a non
    >> commercial license.

    >
    > What does an academic version have to do with anything?
    >
    > Like I said in the first place: the personal version is $100 for Windows,
    > and free for Linux.
    >
    > It's more welfare for Linux - the only OS that needs welfare.
    >
    >
    >
    >> Really, you get stupidly worse Doofy.

    >
    > As usual, you're wrong about everything.



    I was going to suggest you attempt to open your mind but, what's the point.
    You're already lost in your own self importance.

  2. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Hadron wrote:

    > ml2mst writes:
    >
    >> SomeBloke wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> ml2mst writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> CodeGear adamant it will keep the faith
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>>> | One user asked, Does the platform independent streak mean we may
    >>>>>> | see a return of Delphi for Linux?, to which Williams answered,
    >>>>>> | I'm still getting my head around a lot of these things. Platform
    >>>>>> | independence is critical, so the concept of targeting multiple
    >>>>>> | operating systems is certainly one we invest in R&D to service.
    >>>>>> `----
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>

    http://www.businessreviewonline.com/...ar_adaman.html
    >>>>> Eh? The author of this article has probably missed Lazarus?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>

    http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mo...dex&sURL=about
    >>>> Another half arsed "almost there" project. Why bother? Use Python.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Python is an interpreted language that's why. Lazarus produces
    >>> executable binaries and is cross platform.
    >>>
    >>> Please try to keep up.

    >>
    >> Don't bother, that's Hadron's logic. You should be used to it by now :-)
    >>
    >> Cheers

    >
    > And another point : the executables themselves are not "cross platform".
    >
    > Typical COLA loons advocating some half arsed solution which may or may
    > not be supported in the near future.
    >


    I wasn't aware that I suggested the executables were cross platform, only
    that the RAD is.

    Lazarus has a thriving and supportive developer and user base.
    Borland/Codegear/ Embaracardo (take your pick of recent names) blows hot
    and cold. Oh yes, they're all commercial companies that aren't supporting
    their own product too well.

    Isn't Python an open source language under the control of a Dictator for
    life? Just curious.

  3. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    SomeBloke writes:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> ml2mst writes:
    >>
    >>> SomeBloke wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> ml2mst writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> CodeGear adamant it will keep the faith
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>>>> | One user asked, Does the platform independent streak mean we may
    >>>>>>> | see a return of Delphi for Linux?, to which Williams answered,
    >>>>>>> | I'm still getting my head around a lot of these things. Platform
    >>>>>>> | independence is critical, so the concept of targeting multiple
    >>>>>>> | operating systems is certainly one we invest in R&D to service.
    >>>>>>> `----
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>

    > http://www.businessreviewonline.com/...ar_adaman.html
    >>>>>> Eh? The author of this article has probably missed Lazarus?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>

    > http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mo...dex&sURL=about
    >>>>> Another half arsed "almost there" project. Why bother? Use Python.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Python is an interpreted language that's why. Lazarus produces
    >>>> executable binaries and is cross platform.
    >>>>
    >>>> Please try to keep up.
    >>>
    >>> Don't bother, that's Hadron's logic. You should be used to it by now :-)
    >>>
    >>> Cheers

    >>
    >> And another point : the executables themselves are not "cross platform".
    >>
    >> Typical COLA loons advocating some half arsed solution which may or may
    >> not be supported in the near future.
    >>

    >
    > I wasn't aware that I suggested the executables were cross platform, only
    > that the RAD is.
    >
    > Lazarus has a thriving and supportive developer and user base.


    Bah!

    > Borland/Codegear/ Embaracardo (take your pick of recent names) blows hot
    > and cold. Oh yes, they're all commercial companies that aren't supporting
    > their own product too well.
    >
    > Isn't Python an open source language under the control of a Dictator for
    > life? Just curious.


    It is?

    Better hope not because its the core heart beat of many Linux distros.

    --
    - "Actually XP *is* getting press, but most of it is along the lines of
    "we're going to wait and see", in other words not very good."
    comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they put the lunacy in advocacy

  4. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Hadron wrote:

    > SomeBloke writes:
    >
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> ml2mst writes:
    >>>
    >>>> SomeBloke wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> ml2mst writes:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> CodeGear adamant it will keep the faith
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>>>>> | One user asked, Does the platform independent streak mean we may
    >>>>>>>> | see a return of Delphi for Linux?, to which Williams answered,
    >>>>>>>> | I'm still getting my head around a lot of these things. Platform
    >>>>>>>> | independence is critical, so the concept of targeting multiple
    >>>>>>>> | operating systems is certainly one we invest in R&D to service.
    >>>>>>>> `----
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>

    >>

    http://www.businessreviewonline.com/...ar_adaman.html
    >>>>>>> Eh? The author of this article has probably missed Lazarus?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>

    >>

    http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mo...dex&sURL=about
    >>>>>> Another half arsed "almost there" project. Why bother? Use Python.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Python is an interpreted language that's why. Lazarus produces
    >>>>> executable binaries and is cross platform.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Please try to keep up.
    >>>>
    >>>> Don't bother, that's Hadron's logic. You should be used to it by now
    >>>> :-)
    >>>>
    >>>> Cheers
    >>>
    >>> And another point : the executables themselves are not "cross platform".
    >>>
    >>> Typical COLA loons advocating some half arsed solution which may or may
    >>> not be supported in the near future.
    >>>

    >>
    >> I wasn't aware that I suggested the executables were cross platform, only
    >> that the RAD is.
    >>
    >> Lazarus has a thriving and supportive developer and user base.

    >
    > Bah!


    Oh no, a programming language fascist!

    >
    >> Borland/Codegear/ Embaracardo (take your pick of recent names) blows hot
    >> and cold. Oh yes, they're all commercial companies that aren't supporting
    >> their own product too well.
    >>
    >> Isn't Python an open source language under the control of a Dictator for
    >> life? Just curious.

    >
    > It is?
    >
    > Better hope not because its the core heart beat of many Linux distros.
    >


    This from the Wikipedia entry for Python.


    Python was conceived in the late 1980s[5] by Guido van Rossum at CWI in the
    Netherlands as a successor of the ABC programming language capable of
    exception handling and interfacing with the Amoeba operating system.[6] van
    Rossum is Python's principal author, and his continuing central role in
    deciding the direction of Python is reflected in the title given him by the
    Python community, Benevolent Dictator for Life (BDFL).


  5. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    SomeBloke wrote:
    > DFS wrote:
    >
    >> SomeBloke wrote:
    >>> DFS wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> First Look: REALbasic 2007 Gets Linux Support
    >>>>>
    >>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>>> The Linux standard version is currently free, while the Linux
    >>>>>> professional version costs $500. The Windows/Mac standard version
    >>>>>> goes for $200 and the professional version sells for $500.
    >>>>> `----
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=21287
    >>>>
    >>>> There is no standard version. The personal version for Windows is
    >>>> $100, while the personal version for Linux is free.
    >>>>
    >>>> It's more welfare for Linux.
    >>> Go here... http://www.realsoftware.com/download/
    >>>
    >>> Versions for Linux, Windows and Mac freely available at no cost to
    >>> download.

    >> Those are trial versions, ignoramus.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> Registration is also available at no cost, just apply for a non
    >>> commercial license.

    >> What does an academic version have to do with anything?
    >>
    >> Like I said in the first place: the personal version is $100 for Windows,
    >> and free for Linux.
    >>
    >> It's more welfare for Linux - the only OS that needs welfare.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> Really, you get stupidly worse Doofy.

    >> As usual, you're wrong about everything.

    >
    >
    > I was going to suggest you attempt to open your mind but, what's the point.
    > You're already lost in your own self importance.


    Open my mind to what?

    * that Spamowitz posted an article which doubled the true cost of the
    Windows personal version of RealBasic? I doubt it was ever $200. More
    than likely the author of the article is a Linux liar.

    * that an idiot like you called me stupid because I had to correct both
    of you dumbasses?

  6. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 12:15:17 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >
    >> It is like using Visual Basic for writing drivers ..... Heh!

    >
    > http://www.blackice.com/Printer%20Dr...Tool%20Kit.htm
    > http://www.mev.co.uk/suppdio.htm
    > http://www.google.com/search?q=Visua...device+drivers
    >
    >
    > More ignorance from HPT, along with the classics:
    >
    > * Chicago Bulls won the world series
    > * I spoofed 'em with the C++ != conditional.


    Yea if you or I made those comments they would be re-posted 24 times a day.

    > Why do you even bother?


    Good question.
    HPT is obviously not too swift.


    >> (Vista, LOL!)

    >
    > Won't be long before you're using Vista to make a living - if you're not
    > already.


    No doubt.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  7. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:36:04 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > SomeBloke wrote:
    >> DFS wrote:
    >>
    >>> SomeBloke wrote:
    >>>> DFS wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> First Look: REALbasic 2007 Gets Linux Support
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>>>> The Linux standard version is currently free, while the Linux
    >>>>>>> professional version costs $500. The Windows/Mac standard version
    >>>>>>> goes for $200 and the professional version sells for $500.
    >>>>>> `----
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=21287
    >>>>>
    >>>>> There is no standard version. The personal version for Windows is
    >>>>> $100, while the personal version for Linux is free.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> It's more welfare for Linux.
    >>>> Go here... http://www.realsoftware.com/download/
    >>>>
    >>>> Versions for Linux, Windows and Mac freely available at no cost to
    >>>> download.
    >>> Those are trial versions, ignoramus.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Registration is also available at no cost, just apply for a non
    >>>> commercial license.
    >>> What does an academic version have to do with anything?
    >>>
    >>> Like I said in the first place: the personal version is $100 for Windows,
    >>> and free for Linux.
    >>>
    >>> It's more welfare for Linux - the only OS that needs welfare.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Really, you get stupidly worse Doofy.
    >>> As usual, you're wrong about everything.

    >>
    >>
    >> I was going to suggest you attempt to open your mind but, what's the point.
    >> You're already lost in your own self importance.

    >
    > Open my mind to what?
    >
    > * that Spamowitz posted an article which doubled the true cost of the
    > Windows personal version of RealBasic? I doubt it was ever $200. More
    > than likely the author of the article is a Linux liar.
    >
    > * that an idiot like you called me stupid because I had to correct both
    > of you dumbasses?


    Slam dunk...
    Game set match.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  8. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Verily I say unto thee, that DooFuS spake thusly:

    > It's more welfare for Linux - the only OS that needs welfare.


    No, it's the OS that doesn't need crap like REALbasic because it already
    has a huge number of better Free Software development tools, so the only
    way REAL are ever going to shift this junk to GNU/Linux developers is by
    giving it away, and frankly ... not even then.

    Now, go play with some buttons on Access, as usual.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | 'When it comes to knowledge, "ownership" just doesn't make sense'
    | ~ Cory Doctorow, The Guardian. http://tinyurl.com/22bgx8
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    23:51:55 up 170 days, 20:27, 5 users, load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.00

  9. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Homer wrote:
    > Verily I say unto thee, that DooFuS spake thusly:
    >
    >> It's more welfare for Linux - the only OS that needs welfare.

    >
    > No, it's the OS that doesn't need crap like REALbasic because it already
    > has a huge number of better Free Software development tools,


    REALBasic is much better than KDevelop, and that Gambas slopware, and
    perl-GTK/Qt, and wxPython, etc.




    > so the only
    > way REAL are ever going to shift this junk to GNU/Linux developers is by
    > giving it away, and frankly ... not even then.
    >
    > Now, go play with some buttons on Access, as usual.


    Cool - I think I will, [H]ypocrite. I'm sure you'll be using Windows
    soon too.

    Hey, I made $4,450.00 last week "playing with buttons on Access"...and
    continued to be thanked for the quality and neat features and powerful
    analytical capabilities of my Access\VB\Oracle systems.

    How did you do last week, and how many people thanked you for the
    quality of your work?

    What's that? You're nearly broke, all alone, *and* unemployed? Better
    drop that OSS junk and get a life.


  10. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Homer wrote:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that DooFuS spake thusly:
    >
    >> It's more welfare for Linux - the only OS that needs welfare.

    >
    > No, it's the OS that doesn't need crap like REALbasic because it already
    > has a huge number of better Free Software development tools, so the only
    > way REAL are ever going to shift this junk to GNU/Linux developers is by
    > giving it away, and frankly ... not even then.


    Also nobody with more than two working braincells and /some/ self
    respect in the *nix world, doesn't code in BASIC.

    Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their first
    programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the 1980's.

    BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >
    > Now, go play with some buttons on Access, as usual.
    >


    Cheers

    --
    |_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin
    |_|_|0| http://ml2mst.googlepages.com
    |0|0|0| http://osgeex.blogspot.com

  11. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:

    > Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    > first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    > 1980's.
    >
    > BASIC is for kiddies :-p


    IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes, since it encourages
    the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming. Pascal and SML are
    far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    they mean to go on.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | 'When it comes to knowledge, "ownership" just doesn't make sense'
    | ~ Cory Doctorow, The Guardian. http://tinyurl.com/22bgx8
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    04:18:38 up 171 days, 54 min, 1 user, load average: 0.04, 0.07, 0.26

  12. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 04:18:59 +0100, Homer wrote:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >
    >> Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    >> first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    >> 1980's.
    >>
    >> BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >
    > IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes, since it encourages
    > the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming. Pascal and SML are
    > far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    > their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    > have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    > they mean to go on.


    I sort of agree with this one.
    BASIC is good for very young potential programmers so that they can learn
    how the computer functions.
    IOW people just starting out.

    For future programmers, say high school on up, a structured language is a
    better alternative because it will teach them good solid programming skills
    and work habits that can be transported to any language they might learn
    later on.



    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  13. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Homer wrote:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >
    >> Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    >> first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    >> 1980's.
    >>
    >> BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >
    > IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes, since it encourages
    > the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming. Pascal and SML are
    > far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    > their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    > have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    > they mean to go on.
    >

    I fully agree with that.

    If you start coding in a /real/ language from day one, you will become a
    great coder, because you learned /properly/ coding right from the start.

    If you start with something ugly as BASIC, you will fall back on BASIC
    and your bad habits all the time, simply because you don't know anything
    else but crappy coding.

    For example, ask a (non native English speaking) typical old school
    BASIC coder what a pointer is :-)

    It is pretty difficult for many (ex) BASIC coder to learn properly
    coding in a decent language later.

    Cheers

    --
    |_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin
    |_|_|0| http://ml2mst.googlepages.com
    |0|0|0| http://osgeex.blogspot.com

  14. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 06:49:30 +0200, ml2mst wrote:

    > Homer wrote:
    >
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >>
    >>> Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    >>> first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    >>> 1980's.
    >>>
    >>> BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >>
    >> IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes, since it encourages
    >> the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming. Pascal and SML are
    >> far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    >> their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    >> have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    >> they mean to go on.
    >>

    > I fully agree with that.
    >
    > If you start coding in a /real/ language from day one, you will become a
    > great coder, because you learned /properly/ coding right from the start.
    >
    > If you start with something ugly as BASIC, you will fall back on BASIC
    > and your bad habits all the time, simply because you don't know anything
    > else but crappy coding.
    >
    > For example, ask a (non native English speaking) typical old school
    > BASIC coder what a pointer is :-)
    >
    > It is pretty difficult for many (ex) BASIC coder to learn properly
    > coding in a decent language later.
    >
    > Cheers


    Yea, you guys are spot on with this one.
    Better to learn good habits from the start than try and unlearn bad habits
    later on.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  15. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    ml2mst wrote:
    > Homer wrote:
    >
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >>
    >>> Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    >>> first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    >>> 1980's.
    >>>
    >>> BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >> IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes,


    You feel that way because you don't like Microsoft, [H]ypocrite.



    >> since it encourages
    >> the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming.


    No, Basic (MS Visual or otherwise) does not encourage anything.



    >> Pascal and SML are
    >> far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    >> their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    >> have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    >> they mean to go on.
    >>

    > I fully agree with that.


    I fully disagree. Java would be better because it's easier and more
    popular and object-oriented.


    > If you start coding in a /real/ language from day one, you will become a
    > great coder, because you learned /properly/ coding right from the start.


    A great coder isn't great because of the language - a great coder is
    great in spite of the language.



    > If you start with something ugly as BASIC, you will fall back on BASIC
    > and your bad habits all the time, simply because you don't know anything
    > else but crappy coding.


    You must be speaking from experience.




    > For example, ask a (non native English speaking) typical old school
    > BASIC coder what a pointer is :-)


    What's a pointer?



    > It is pretty difficult for many (ex) BASIC coder to learn properly
    > coding in a decent language later.


    How would you know?


  16. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 01:20:09 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > ml2mst wrote:
    >> Homer wrote:
    >>
    >>> Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >>>
    >>>> Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    >>>> first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    >>>> 1980's.
    >>>>
    >>>> BASIC is for kiddies :-p
    >>> IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes,

    >
    > You feel that way because you don't like Microsoft, [H]ypocrite.
    >
    >
    >
    >>> since it encourages
    >>> the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming.

    >
    > No, Basic (MS Visual or otherwise) does not encourage anything.
    >
    >
    >
    >>> Pascal and SML are
    >>> far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    >>> their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    >>> have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    >>> they mean to go on.
    >>>

    >> I fully agree with that.

    >
    > I fully disagree. Java would be better because it's easier and more
    > popular and object-oriented.
    >
    >
    >> If you start coding in a /real/ language from day one, you will become a
    >> great coder, because you learned /properly/ coding right from the start.

    >
    > A great coder isn't great because of the language - a great coder is
    > great in spite of the language.
    >
    >
    >
    >> If you start with something ugly as BASIC, you will fall back on BASIC
    >> and your bad habits all the time, simply because you don't know anything
    >> else but crappy coding.

    >
    > You must be speaking from experience.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >> For example, ask a (non native English speaking) typical old school
    >> BASIC coder what a pointer is :-)

    >
    > What's a pointer?
    >
    >
    >
    >> It is pretty difficult for many (ex) BASIC coder to learn properly
    >> coding in a decent language later.

    >
    > How would you know?


    I think they make some valid points for people going into programming as a
    career however Basic is great for people who want to learn a little about
    how programming works etc because they can make it do *stuff* quickly and
    easily.
    Then they can progress to more structured languages from there.

    Most kids I talk to are interested in Java and html kind of stuff.
    The programmers or programmers to be are interested in C and C++ or
    database work.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  17. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    In article <42kuh5-6nf.ln1@sky.matrix>, Homer
    wrote:
    > Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >
    > > Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    > > first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    > > 1980's.
    > >
    > > BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >
    > IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes, since it encourages
    > the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming. Pascal and SML are
    > far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    > their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    > have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    > they mean to go on.


    Neither of you have actually looked into REALbasic at all, have you?
    You seem to be assuming that because it has "basic" in the name, it is
    similar to something you'd have found on a TRS-80, or printing out on an
    ASR-33 a report on how many Klingons are in the sector.

    Note that REALbasic won both "Best Linux Programming Environment" and
    "Best Linux Programming Tool" in the 2005 LinuxWorld Reader's Choice
    awards, so evidently there is some interest among Linux developers in it.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  18. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 22:27:27 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

    > In article <42kuh5-6nf.ln1@sky.matrix>, Homer
    > wrote:
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >>
    >>> Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    >>> first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    >>> 1980's.
    >>>
    >>> BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >>
    >> IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes, since it encourages
    >> the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming. Pascal and SML are
    >> far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    >> their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    >> have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    >> they mean to go on.

    >
    > Neither of you have actually looked into REALbasic at all, have you?
    > You seem to be assuming that because it has "basic" in the name, it is
    > similar to something you'd have found on a TRS-80, or printing out on an
    > ASR-33 a report on how many Klingons are in the sector.
    >
    > Note that REALbasic won both "Best Linux Programming Environment" and
    > "Best Linux Programming Tool" in the 2005 LinuxWorld Reader's Choice
    > awards, so evidently there is some interest among Linux developers in it.


    Well I'll be the first one to admit my ignorance in not knowing about REAL
    basic.
    I was referring to the classic BASIC, like QuickBasic etc.
    I used to play Lunar Lander on my circa 1976 HP calculator though
    I also did the turtle thing and the C64 Balloon thing which was the point
    where I decided programming was just not my gift.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  19. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:

    > I think they make some valid points for people going into programming as a
    > career


    They're whining for one reason only: Visual Basic is a Microsoft
    product. It was the most popular programming language for a long time,
    and it helped/helps Windows maintain its dominance in corporate America.
    And rightly so - you shouldn't have to take courses in data structures
    and algorithms and write 500 lines of stupid C\Java code just to put up
    a nice UI and connect to an Oracle database table.




    > however Basic is great for people who want to learn a little about
    > how programming works etc because they can make it do *stuff* quickly and
    > easily.


    The anti-MS bias of Linux loons may be rubbing off on you a bit my friend

    You can create a very wide array of programs (from the aforementioned
    business systems to 3D games to device drivers to sophisticated jpeg
    photo manipulation libraries) in Visual Basic. It's not appropriate for
    everything, but it's great for many business-type uses.




    > Then they can progress to more structured languages from there.


    Doesn't matter - bad programs can be written in any language. Look at
    all the crap in the Debian stable package lists - it's written in
    probably a dozen languages.



    > Most kids I talk to are interested in Java and html kind of stuff.


    Both great technologies. HTML and the Internet are impacting my work,
    actually; the biggest Access system I've ever written is currently being
    redeveloped for web access (well, for the time being they're doing
    requirements gathering, again; we already did it 2.5 years ago).



    > The programmers or programmers to be are interested in C and C++ or
    > database work.


    Databases are cool - I've always enjoyed figuring out the best ways to
    capture/store/retrieve/manipulate and display data.


  20. Re: [News] Delphi for Linux Might Make Comeback

    Homer writes:

    > Verily I say unto thee, that ml2mst spake thusly:
    >
    >> Gambas is considered a educational tool for kids, learning their
    >> first programming steps. Pretty much like "the turtle program" in the
    >> 1980's.
    >>
    >> BASIC is for kiddies :-p

    >
    > IMHO BASIC is not even fit for educational purposes, since it encourages
    > the extremely bad habits of unstructured programming. Pascal and SML
    > are


    Absolute nonsense of course.

    > far better teaching languages, although I'd be disinclined to encourage
    > their use beyond the classroom. Frankly I think it might be better to
    > have them dive into the deep end on day one, with C/C++, and start as
    > they mean to go on.


    I have always advocates machine code /assembler or C as a first
    language. Why assembler? Because you MUST stucture your program and
    thing of the efficiency/usage a lot. Why C? Similar. There are too many
    programmers cutting with teeth with resource hungry garbage like Java at
    the moment - hence applications are not getting quicker despite machine
    being much more powerful.

    --
    It explains a lot. I've not heard of anyone I know, anywhere, buying XP,
    and I've not seen it sold whilst I've been in any shops.
    comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they put the lunacy in advocacy

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